Sides of the conflict

[Fireblaster3147]

At strip #548, the demon cockroaches hint at the fact that there are nine sides of this conflict. Headcount anyone?

[CriticalFailure]

I thought they'd already reached 9.

[InvisibleBison]

I've always felt that people are taking that statement far too literally. For one thing, I don't see why the demon roach would be an authoritative source about how many sides are involved in the conflict over the gates. Secondly, the demon roach itself is uncertain as to how many sides are in the conflict - it says "at least nine", not nine, allowing for the possibility of more. And as Redcloak explains in that and the following panel, what exactly constitutes a side is often difficult to precisely define. So I think that, while it may be interesting to try and come up with a list of all the factions involved in the plot, there is no way to come up with a definitive list of "the nine sides".

[Peelee]

I've always felt that people are taking that statement far too literally. For one thing, I don't see why the demon roach would be an authoritative source about how many sides are involved in the conflict over the gates. Secondly, the demon roach itself is uncertain as to how many sides are in the conflict - it says "at least nine", not nine, allowing for the possibility of more. And as Redcloak explains in that and the following panel, what exactly constitutes a side is often difficult to precisely define. So I think that, while it may be interesting to try and come up with a list of all the factions involved in the plot, there is no way to come up with a definitive list of "the nine sides".

Hear hear!

I dont give any credence to theories that list less than twelve. Demon roaches gave us a floor, the ceiling is nowhere to be found!

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Hear hear!

I dont give any credence to theories that list less than twelve. Demon roaches gave us a floor, the ceiling is nowhere to be found!

In my head I can only plausibly think up seven, plus this new faction (if it is new)

I think from a story perspective (how many sides can be introduced and subsequently defeated or delayed in a phonebook sized book), 11 or 12 is probably closest to how many "sides" there really are.

Edit: the list
There's OOTS, who want to defeat Xykon
Xykon, who wants to rule the world
Redcloak and TDO, who wants to blackmail the gods for the good of goblinkind
IFCC, who want to tear everything down
Loki (and?)
Thor, who want to save the world permanently, and for the former tear down Thor forever if they fail
Snarl, whose "side"-ness is debatable
This new faction if it is new

Tangential possibilities
Rat, who wanted something with TDO
Tiamat, who has met TDO in person and has dealings with Lee (Devils)
The rest of the gods who don't want to do anything with TDO
MitD? MitD's parents?

[Emanick]

In my head I can only plausibly think up seven, plus this new faction (if it is new)

I think from a story perspective (how many sides can be introduced and subsequently defeated or delayed in a phonebook sized book), 11 or 12 is probably closest to how many "sides" there really are.

Edit: the list
There's OOTS, who want to defeat Xykon
Xykon, who wants to rule the world
Redcloak and TDO, who wants to blackmail the gods for the good of goblinkind
IFCC, who want to tear everything down
Loki (and?)
Thor, who want to save the world permanently, and for the former tear down Thor forever if they fail
Snarl, whose "side"-ness is debatable
This new faction if it is new

Tangential possibilities
Rat, who wanted something with TDO
Tiamat, who has met TDO in person and has dealings with Lee (Devils)
The rest of the gods who don't want to do anything with TDO
MitD? MitD's parents?

There's also Hel and Greg, the Linear Guild, the Vector Legion (or at least Tarquin), and some or all of the Scribblers - especially Serini, who may or may not be employing the invisible dart-throwers we just saw.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

There's also Hel and Greg, the Linear Guild, the Vector Legion (or at least Tarquin), and some or all of the Scribblers - especially Serini, who may or may not be employing the invisible dart-throwers we just saw.

Well, Tarquin wasn't really in on the whole conflict (and said that he would have destroyed the gate anyway). So I'll take him out of the list from Roaches' point of view. And then there's the Scribblers- who, if they are still alive, probably share OOTS's point of view, not knowing much else about the cosmic issues that Thor and the other gods know about.

So here's a list of everyone we know is involved with this conflict in some way, either influencing big picture things or trying to stop others
1. OOTS
2. The big X
3. RC/TDO
4. IFCC
5. Loki/Thor
6. Snarl
7. Hel
8. Linear Guild
9. Possibly Rat
10. Possibly Tiamat
11. The rest of the gods

Sides that we know little about or IMO aren't worth adding
12. Tarquin/Vector Legion
13. Scribble

A healthy 11-13, not even adding any "new" factions.

[factotum]

Well, Tarquin wasn't really in on the whole conflict (and said that he would have destroyed the gate anyway). So I'll take him out of the list from Roaches' point of view.

What he wants to do with the gate is irrelevant. The fact is, Tarquin opposed the Order and is thus part of another side, even if he doesn't directly care about the gates.

[Emanick]

Well, Tarquin wasn't really in on the whole conflict (and said that he would have destroyed the gate anyway). So I'll take him out of the list from Roaches' point of view. And then there's the Scribblers- who, if they are still alive, probably share OOTS's point of view, not knowing much else about the cosmic issues that Thor and the other gods know about.

I'm not at all sure that the Draketooth clan would have shared the Order's point of view - they seem like practically the definition of loose cannons. Serini seems more likely to be/have been on their side, but we don't really know yet.

Tarquin was trying to beat the Order to the Gate in order to gain control of it, and probably destroy it. That makes him involved in the conflict over the Gates, even if his aspirations never went as far as most of the other sides' did.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm not at all sure that the Draketooth clan would have shared the Order's point of view - they seem like practically the definition of loose cannons. Serini seems more likely to be/have been on their side, but we don't really know yet.

The Draketooths were defending their gate to keep people from getting at it. They might be loose cannons, but I'm not sure that constitutes another "side" *shrug*. Knowing nothing about their personalities and how they would react to an adventuring party strong enough to dispel their illusions and their traps, I can't say anything either way.

I have a feeling Serini might know something about the Snarl and the world inside the rifts. Something groundbreaking that turns Thor's plan on its head, that split up that Order those years ago. There's got to be something more, if Roy commented on why they split up even though they knew it was related to how Kraagor died.

Any which way, there's 12+ sides for you. OOTS, Xykon, RC/TDO, IFCC, Linear Guild, Loki/Thor, Rat, Tiamat, Hel, Other Gods, Scribble, Tarquin, The Snarl, OB/GB (who could be related to Scribble, IFCC, The Snarl, or any other faction we haven't seen much of or any of)

[SlashDash]

Well, Tarquin wasn't really in on the whole conflict (and said that he would have destroyed the gate anyway).

Thus making him a side in the conflict.
It doesn't matter what his intentions were, the fact is, he had a reason to do something with the gate.
Note that said he was going to research the gate first if he could, he might have changed his mind on destroying the gate.

And even if he did destroy the gate, that is also part of the conflict. Any gate being destroyed brings a world reset closer.

Also even after the gate was destroyed, the legion continued messing with the gate. We still don't know what's going on in the desert right now.



People also seem to forget that "sides" doesn't mean opposing the Oots.
The Saphire Guard is a side even though they ally themselves with the oots now.

I would say :

1) Oots
2) Xykon
3) Dark One \ Red Cloak\ Gobtopia
4) Saphire Guard \ Azure City \ Hinjo
5) Linear Guild
6) Vector Legion
7) Hel and her followers (Including Thrym etc)
8) Thor, Loki etc
9) IFCC
10) New guys

[Emanick]

Thus making him a side in the conflict.
It doesn't matter what his intentions were, the fact is, he had a reason to do something with the gate.
Note that said he was going to research the gate first if he could, he might have changed his mind on destroying the gate.

And even if he did destroy the gate, that is also part of the conflict. Any gate being destroyed brings a world reset closer.

Also even after the gate was destroyed, the legion continued messing with the gate. We still don't know what's going on in the desert right now.



People also seem to forget that "sides" doesn't mean opposing the Oots.
The Saphire Guard is a side even though they ally themselves with the oots now.

I agree with the first part of your post, but I'd argue that being on a different side heavily implies some difference in aims. If you're working alongside another group and share the same goals, in what way are you not on their side?

I don't really see any daylight between the Order and the Sapphire Guard - they both want the same thing and are working together, with no apparent conflict of interest. Thus, I don't see how they can coherently be regarded as being on different sides.

[ti'esar]

I've always felt that people are taking that statement far too literally. For one thing, I don't see why the demon roach would be an authoritative source about how many sides are involved in the conflict over the gates. Secondly, the demon roach itself is uncertain as to how many sides are in the conflict - it says "at least nine", not nine, allowing for the possibility of more. And as Redcloak explains in that and the following panel, what exactly constitutes a side is often difficult to precisely define. So I think that, while it may be interesting to try and come up with a list of all the factions involved in the plot, there is no way to come up with a definitive list of "the nine sides".

Pretty sure the Giant actually says in the commentary that the gist of that exchange is just "there's a lot of factions in the story's conflict and we haven't seen all of them yet", and the specific number nine may not be accurate. (My standing assumption is that it was pulled from the number of alignments, which is not to suggest that there's a correlation beyond that).

[KorvinStarmast]

Pretty sure the Giant actually says in the commentary that the gist of that exchange is just "there's a lot of factions in the story's conflict and we haven't seen all of them yet", and the specific number nine may not be accurate. (My standing assumption is that it was pulled from the number of alignments, which is not to suggest that there's a correlation beyond that). Not to mention that when those 'sides' were expressed, the story had not yet run into the Tarquin
I count at least nine.
ssh, they don't know about some of those yet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

[Vulkos]

1) OotS
2) Xykon
3) Redcloak
4) Linear Guild
5) Tarquin
6) IFCC
7) Hel
8) Thor? (might be included in OotS, since Thor's plan is now Durkon's plan)
9) last strip folks

[Petrocorus]

I don't really see any daylight between the Order and the Sapphire Guard - they both want the same thing and are working together, with no apparent conflict of interest. Thus, I don't see how they can coherently be regarded as being on different sides.

Until they find out that the OotS is willing to talk with RC to set up a negotiation between TDO and the other pantheons. Negotiation that may lead to Azure City definitely remaining Gobbotopia.

Which is also why Rat may be a side of his own.

[Calavera]

I would say at a minimum

1. OotS
2. Linear Guild
3. IFCC
4. "Save the World" gods
5. Hel
6. Xykon
7. Redcloak+Dark One
8. Snarl
9. Soon+Azure Guard
10. Non Soon Scribblers (possibly representing more than 1 side, but amongst them, at least 1)

Others possible

1. Guys introduced in #1189
2. Other gods

[The Pilgrim]

1- OOTS
2- The Snarl
3- Xykon
4- Redcloak
5- MitD
6- Eugene Greenhilt
7- Sapphire Guard
8- Kubota (deceased)
9- The Elves (out of the scene by now)
10- The Hobgoblins
11- The Linear Guild (mostly deceased)
12- The Oracle
13- IFCC
14- Vector Legion (out of the scene by now)
15- Thieves' Guild (deceased or out of the scene)
16- Girard's clan (deceased)
17- Hel
18- Thor
19- Loki
20- Tiamat
21- The Dwarves
22- The Bugbears
23 - Serini and Fellows
24+ each of the churches represented at the Godsmoot

That makes well over 20, and I haven't counted the Forest Thieves, the Polearm's mogul, Dorukan and Lirian, Hylgia, the Drow, Reptilia, Captan Amon Zora, the Bounty Hunters, Ian Starshine, Uncle Geoff, Redcloak's Niece, Julio Scoundrel and his Pirates, the Gnomes...

[Roland Itiative]

Here are the nine sides:

1- Lawful Good
2- Neutral Good
3- Chaotic Good
4- Lawful Neutral
5- True Neutral
6- Chaotic Neutral
7- Lawful Evil
8- Neutral Evil
9- Chaotic Evil

And yes, I really do believe the roaches were just making an alignment joke.

[KorvinStarmast]

Here are the nine sides:

1- Lawful Good
2- Neutral Good
3- Chaotic Good
4- Lawful Neutral
5- True Neutral
6- Chaotic Neutral
7- Lawful Evil
8- Neutral Evil
9- Chaotic Evil

And yes, I really do believe the roaches were just making an alignment joke. If you can make a three dimensionally symetric nine sided die with those faces, I suspect people will buy them. :smallcool:

[Petrocorus]

If you can make a three dimensionally symetric nine sided die with those faces, I suspect people will buy them. :smallcool:

Add 0 - Unaligned. And you have a 10-sider.

[Gift Jeraff]

Pretty sure the Giant actually says in the commentary that the gist of that exchange is just "there's a lot of factions in the story's conflict and we haven't seen all of them yet"

He says no such thing. In fact, as far as I know, his only acknowledgment of the 9 sides line is at the end of that book's commentary, where he says we'll meet a new side in Book 5.

[Fireblaster3147]

Most of the scribbles are already dead at this point.
Kraagor died in the battle against the snarl.
Soon died of old age.
Lirian I presume died in the forest fire.
Dorukan is probably killed by Xykon.
We literally saw Girard’s dead body (and if you argue that it’s an illusion he probably died by the familicide anyways)
The only one who’s possibly alive at this point is Serini, and even she’s probably died of old age already(what’s the average lifespan of a halfling again? 150?)
So I think we can count the Scribbles out of the current conflict.

[HorizonWalker]

Most of the scribbles are already dead at this point.
Kraagor died in the battle against the snarl.
Soon died of old age.
Lirian I presume died in the forest fire.
Dorukan is probably killed by Xykon.
We literally saw Girard’s dead body (and if you argue that it’s an illusion he probably died by the familicide anyways)
The only one who’s possibly alive at this point is Serini, and even she’s probably died of old age already(what’s the average lifespan of a halfling again? 150?)
So I think we can count the Scribbles out of the current conflict.

Xykon killed Lirian and Dorukan on-screen in Start of Darkness, or SoD as it's often abbreviated to.

[hroþila]

Most of the scribbles are already dead at this point.
Kraagor died in the battle against the snarl.
Soon died of old age.
Lirian I presume died in the forest fire.
Dorukan is probably killed by Xykon.
We literally saw Girard’s dead body (and if you argue that it’s an illusion he probably died by the familicide anyways)
The only one who’s possibly alive at this point is Serini, and even she’s probably died of old age already(what’s the average lifespan of a halfling again? 150?)
So I think we can count the Scribbles out of the current conflict.
Girard and Soon are the only ones who have died of old age. Serini might or might not be alive, but most likely she did not of old age, especially as she's a halfling. Dorukan was alive and kicking a mere 3 years ago, and while he was a wizard, he was also human.

Her status as the sole Scribbler not confirmed dead makes her appearing in the comic more likely, not less, in my opinion. After all, we're supposed to learn about what happened to their team, and there can't be many other potential sources of information around.

[Petrocorus]

The only one who’s possibly alive at this point is Serini, and even she’s probably died of old age already(what’s the average lifespan of a halfling again? 150?)


Halfling maximum age is 100 +5d20 according to the 3.5 PHB. Average 152,5 indeed.

But Serini strike me as being quite young at the time of the Scribble. This is the impression her notebook gives me. All the Scribblers except Soon seemed quite young (for their race) apparently.

I believe she may be 85 to 95 y.o. by now. Which would put her in the "old" age category, like a human of 53 to 70 y.o. So i don't believe she died of old age. That doesn't say she's alive.

And she may have found ways to extend her lifespan.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

1- OOTS
2- The Snarl
3- Xykon
4- Redcloak
5- MitD
6- Eugene Greenhilt
7- Sapphire Guard
8- Kubota (deceased)
9- The Elves (out of the scene by now)
10- The Hobgoblins
11- The Linear Guild (mostly deceased)
12- The Oracle
13- IFCC
14- Vector Legion (out of the scene by now)
15- Thieves' Guild (deceased or out of the scene)
16- Girard's clan (deceased)
17- Hel
18- Thor
19- Loki
20- Tiamat
21- The Dwarves
22- The Bugbears
23 - Serini and Fellows
24+ each of the churches represented at the Godsmoot

OOTS, the dwarves, the sapphire guard, Eugene, and the churches are on the same Side.
Redcloak, the hobgoblins, and the bugbears are on the same Side.
Thor and Loki are on the same Side, for this conflict anyway.
Kubota, the Elves, The Oracle, The Thieves' Guild, and 90% of factions you didn't count aren't even related to the conflict over the gates, and even if the Oracle was related, it would be through Tiamat.
Girard's Clan was gone by the time the Roaches counted "sides", and they never opposed the OOTS or any other side in-story, other than protecting the gate, so I can't say that's anything other than Serini and Fellows.

This collapses to
1. 1- OOTS 6- Eugene Greenhilt 7- Sapphire Guard 21- The Dwarves 24+ each of the churches represented at the Godsmoot
2. 2- The Snarl
3. 3- Xykon
4. 4- Redcloak 10- The Hobgoblins 22- The Bugbears
5. 5- MitD
6. 11- The Linear Guild (mostly deceased)
7. 13- IFCC
8. 14- Vector Legion (out of the scene by now)
9. 17- Hel
10. 18- Thor 19- Loki
11. 20- Tiamat
12. 23 - Serini and Fellows
13. 25 - Rat
Finally
14. GB/OB if they're a new faction.
Other conflicts of interest such as negotiations that end up with Azure City still occupied, Loki taking down Thor if Hel doesn't survive to the next world, and Eugene being disappointed with his son if he fails for a second time, are irrelevant to the conflict of the Gates. so we have a neat 13 opposing sides.

[Calavera]

Kraagor died in the battle against the snarl.


We assume that Kraagor died, but it's not necessarily a valid assumtion, given exactly what we don't know about the Snarl. I'm not expecting K to make an appearance, but I won't be very surprised if he does. By contrast I consider it highly likely that Serini has a major part to play.

[Ron Miel]

I don't really see any daylight between the Order and the Sapphire Guard - they both want the same thing and are working together, with no apparent conflict of interest. Thus, I don't see how they can coherently be regarded as being on different sides.

So how come Shojo had to keep the Order's mission secret from Hinjo? There is a distinct difference in that the Sapphire Guard were protecting one gate, and not allowed to intervene in the others, while OOTS would seek alliances with the guardians of the other gates. This is a significant difference that brought them into conflict. Also the SG defended the gate, while the Order defended the city. Close enough to be allied? Yes. The same side? No.


I divide the nine sides according to their ultimate agendas. As follows:

1)
Members: Xykon
Agenda: Gain control of a gate, and use it to rule the World.
Status: Active


2)
Members: Dark One, Redcloak.
Agenda: Gain control of a gate, and use it to blackmail the Gods. Get a better deal for the Goblinoid races.
Status: Active


3)
Members: IFCC, Sabine, Nale
Agends: Unknown
Status: Active


4)
Members: Hel
Agends : Destroy the World, to gain power in the next one.
Status: Defeated, for the moment.


5)
Members: Azure guard
Agenda : To protect Soon's gate, only. Sworn not to intervene in any other gates.
Status: Destroyed. The oath ended with the destruction of Soon's gate. The few surviving members join other factions.


6)
Members: Azure city soldiers, refugees, Rebel Alliance, Elf allies, Hinjo.
Agenda: To prevent the goblin invasion. After that failed, their agenda became to survive, find a new home, and eventually retake the city.
Status: Have established a base. Plans to retake the city failed.


7)
Members: The hobgoblins, Jirix
Agends: To take and hold a city. Establish a new Goblinoid nation.
Status: Success, for the moment.


8)
Members: OOTS, Shojo, Scribbles, Lien & O-Chul, Thor & Loki
Agenda : imprison the Snarl, save the World, stop the gates from falling into the wrong hands.
Status: Active


9)
Members: The New Guys
Agenda: Unknown
Status: active


So there's nine distinct sides which may sometimes form temporary alliances between them. And, BTW: Not a side - Tarquin. Agenda: No real interest in the gates, or Azure city. An obstacle to be overcome, but not a side in the conflict.

[hroþila]

I think the Vector Legion has a better claim to being one of the sides than the Azurite resistance. Two thirds of the Vector Legion fought for control of one of the Gates, and another member of the Vector Legion gained control of one of the rifts. I would also separate the Linear Guild from the IFCC - Sabine was an IFCC agent and she was coaching Nale, but Nale had his own plans. And the goblinoids are only involved in the conflict in their capacity as followers of Redcloak and the Dark One, they have nothing to do with the Snarl and the Gates otherwise.

(Hel's plan had nothing to do with the Gates either, but she's part of the broader conflict regarding the Snarl and the cycle of world destruction/creation)

[BaronOfHell]

1) Our heroes and their allies

2) The Gods who are plotting against our heroes (not sure if Hel and TDO should be separated)

3) Outsiders (Mainly IFCC)

4) Evil insiders (that is the reverse of outsiders right?) such as the Vector Legion

5) The villains in the form of Xykon and team

6) Miko's horse

So 3 sides more will be revealed, I think.

[HorizonWalker]

Don't forget Guy With A Halberd.

[Emanick]

Don't forget Guy With A Halberd.

He hasn't been forgotten, but since we all know he's working for the IFCC, there's no need to list him separately.