Who is better at not dying - Zealot or Brute?

[Man on Fire]

As in the tite - if you had to choose between the two Classes and their respective variants, from a perspective of which is more likely to survive more, what would be your choice? Zealot Barbarian or Brute Fighter? Maybe some combination of the two?

[Lupine]

I don't know about the brute fighter, but the Zealot barbarian is meant to die. I know that sounds strange, but think about it. All it takes to revive him is time and a spell slot. No materials. Zealot is meant to be able to be killed over and over again, with the cost of death so low as to to be irrelevant.

[moonfly7]

If we're saying at level 20 for each? Zealot, hands down. The zealot has 3 features designed to stop permanent death to the brutes one, and while the brutes D6 is probably more reliable, the advantage on death saves makes them about equal there. But at 14th level barbarians just can't die while raging, period. I mean, they can techniqually yes, but it's so hard to do, and even if you do accomplish it, they're more than likely to get back up next round and rage again.
So the brutes only other staying alive feature, the healing up to half their HP total at 5+con per round, pales in comparison. If someone's wailing on you, they're probably going to eat through that self healed HP fast, so fast it's not gonna do much. If ypur past half HP your probably either outmatched, or have been fighting way to long and are out of abilities. Plus, this comes online at 18th level, zealot gets their 3rd death defying skill at 14.

[Dork_Forge]

If we're saying at level 20 for each? Zealot, hands down. The zealot has 3 features designed to stop permanent death to the brutes one, and while the brutes D6 is probably more reliable, the advantage on death saves makes them about equal there. But at 14th level barbarians just can't die while raging, period. I mean, they can techniqually yes, but it's so hard to do, and even if you do accomplish it, they're more than likely to get back up next round and rage again.
So the brutes only other staying alive feature, the healing up to half their HP total at 5+con per round, pales in comparison. If someone's wailing on you, they're probably going to eat through that self healed HP fast, so fast it's not gonna do much. If ypur past half HP your probably either outmatched, or have been fighting way to long and are out of abilities. Plus, this comes online at 18th level, zealot gets their 3rd death defying skill at 14.

AFB but you're not accounting for the d6 pushing the save over 20 counting as a 20 on the die so still superior to just advantage (likely just stabilising).

The Brute is also on top of the Fighter chassis, so you have Second Wind and 7 ASIs to play with for feats and stats and most likely a higher AC.

In a 1v1 death match the it'd be impossible for the Brute to win unless they took MI to pick up sleep, but in a party it isn't that much of a disparity. As already mentioned the strength of the brute is that they don't care if they die as long as there's a res spell of some kind going handy.

[GreyBlack]

Zealot. Because Zealot didn't die in the process of making it to being printed.

[Amechra]

Crunching some numbers (at 20th level, because that was the challenge - the Zealot does a bit worse before picking up Primal Champion and infinite Rage):

1) A 20th level Zealot is going to have roughly 35.5 more HP than a 20th level Brute, assuming they both bought up to Con 20 and that we're factoring in Second Wind. If we include Survivor, the Brute beats out the Zealot HP-wise if they can somehow stay between 1 HP and 112 HP for 4 rounds. If they're taking a beating purely from BSP damage, the Brute would need to survive for a whopping 33 rounds in that half-health state to beat the Zealot's effective HP.

2) On the saving throw front, things swing to the Brute's favor. +1d6 to all saving throws is nothing to sneeze at. Zealots get to reroll one save per long rest - the Brute can reroll up to three.

3) AC-wise, the Brute is usually going to win - since they have Heavy Armor proficiency, they're going to have better AC than the Zealot can muster unless the Zealot went ahead and bought up to Dexterity 16+. Let's just call this one a wash.

4) When it comes to death saves... the Zealot wins at 20th level (because they can effectively Rage forever), but below that, I'm unsure. Sure, Zealots can't die for a minute straight, but Brutes have a 17.5% chance of healing 1 HP every round and only a 27.5% chance of taking at least one failed save. I'd have to do more number crunching to see what that does to their dying chances.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Crunching some numbers (at 20th level, because that was the challenge - the Zealot does a bit worse before picking up Primal Champion and infinite Rage):

1) A 20th level Zealot is going to have roughly 35.5 more HP than a 20th level Brute, assuming they both bought up to Con 20 and that we're factoring in Second Wind. If we include Survivor, the Brute beats out the Zealot HP-wise if they can somehow stay between 1 HP and 112 HP for 4 rounds. If they're taking a beating purely from BSP damage, the Brute would need to survive for a whopping 33 rounds in that half-health state to beat the Zealot's effective HP.

2) On the saving throw front, things swing to the Brute's favor. +1d6 to all saving throws is nothing to sneeze at. Zealots get to reroll one save per long rest - the Brute can reroll up to three.

3) AC-wise, the Brute is usually going to win - since they have Heavy Armor proficiency, they're going to have better AC than the Zealot can muster unless the Zealot went ahead and bought up to Dexterity 16+. Let's just call this one a wash.

4) When it comes to death saves... the Zealot wins at 20th level (because they can effectively Rage forever), but below that, I'm unsure. Sure, Zealots can't die for a minute straight, but Brutes have a 17.5% chance of healing 1 HP every round and only a 27.5% chance of taking at least one failed save. I'd have to do more number crunching to see what that does to their dying chances.

Is there something that stop the zealot from entering rage in the middle of the rage?
I ask because I didn't saw something like this.
This means that your number 4 is wrong.
It is not a minute it is continuous.

And number 2, Fanatical Focus becomes ones per round as it take a bonus action to enter rage so you can just enter rage every one of your turns.

[Dork_Forge]

Is there something that stop the zealot from entering rage in the middle of the rage?
I ask because I didn't saw something like this.
This means that your number 4 is wrong.
It is not a minute it is continuous.

And number 2, Fanatical Focus becomes ones per round as it take a bonus action to enter rage so you can just enter rage every one of your turns.

It takes a bonus action to end rage willingly, so I don't think that really meshes (and if it is somehow RAW, it certainly isn't RAI).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It takes a bonus action to end rage willingly, so I don't think that really meshes (and if it is somehow RAW, it certainly isn't RAI).

But nowhere is said you need to be not raging in order to rage.
The benefits should not stack as it the same class feature so you need to use only one of the two rages that are going.

I think it was intended to be like this at level 20 as the barbarian gets unlimited rage uses.

[Dork_Forge]

But nowhere is said you need to be not raging in order to rage.
The benefits should not stack as it the same class feature so you need to use only one of the two rages that are going.

I think it was intended to be like this at level 20 as the barbarian gets unlimited rage uses.

It's also just fitting for a 20th level Barbarian to never enter an encounter without a rage (which could very well happen in say a Dungeon crawl or if the party misses a single long rest), outside of the Zealot what would be the purpose of being able to rage whilst already raging? Nothing in the core classes is per rage and I can't think of anything in other subclasses that per rage either. It doesn't make sense and has one edge use on one (?) subclass published 3 years after the core class was.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It's also just fitting for a 20th level Barbarian to never enter an encounter without a rage (which could very well happen in say a Dungeon crawl or if the party misses a single long rest), outside of the Zealot what would be the purpose of being able to rage whilst already raging? Nothing in the core classes is per rage and I can't think of anything in other subclasses that per rage either. It doesn't make sense and has one edge use on one (?) subclass published 3 years after the core class was.

The Mindless Rage from the Berserker and the fact that every barbarian will benefit from a never ending rage.

[Dork_Forge]

The Mindless Rage from the Berserker and the fact that every barbarian will benefit from a never ending rage.

Persistent Rage covers that.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Persistent Rage covers that.

The turns beta the end of the rage and the turn next round where you will be able to enter rage will be rageless by your interpetion.

[Dork_Forge]

The turns beta the end of the rage and the turn next round where you will be able to enter rage will be rageless by your interpetion.

What? This isn't my interpretation of anything, Persistent Rage literally means your Rage won't end early unless you choose to end it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

What? This isn't my interpretation of anything, Persistent Rage literally means your Rage won't end early unless you choose to end it.

I am talking about what happened after the minute end.

There are battles that last more then 10 rounds, especially in the higher levels.

[moonfly7]

Crunching some numbers (at 20th level, because that was the challenge - the Zealot does a bit worse before picking up Primal Champion and infinite Rage):

1) A 20th level Zealot is going to have roughly 35.5 more HP than a 20th level Brute, assuming they both bought up to Con 20 and that we're factoring in Second Wind. If we include Survivor, the Brute beats out the Zealot HP-wise if they can somehow stay between 1 HP and 112 HP for 4 rounds. If they're taking a beating purely from BSP damage, the Brute would need to survive for a whopping 33 rounds in that half-health state to beat the Zealot's effective HP.

2) On the saving throw front, things swing to the Brute's favor. +1d6 to all saving throws is nothing to sneeze at. Zealots get to reroll one save per long rest - the Brute can reroll up to three.

3) AC-wise, the Brute is usually going to win - since they have Heavy Armor proficiency, they're going to have better AC than the Zealot can muster unless the Zealot went ahead and bought up to Dexterity 16+. Let's just call this one a wash.

4) When it comes to death saves... the Zealot wins at 20th level (because they can effectively Rage forever), but below that, I'm unsure. Sure, Zealots can't die for a minute straight, but Brutes have a 17.5% chance of healing 1 HP every round and only a 27.5% chance of taking at least one failed save. I'd have to do more number crunching to see what that does to their dying chances.

Barbarian can boost con to 22, which isn't that big, but worth mentioning.
And if we're looking at the whole class, dropping to 1 hit point is also handy. So is having advantage on death saves, while being awake when making them. That alone increases the brutes loss chance.

[Man on Fire]

One additional question - what combination of them in multiclassing is better? I'm especially looking at Zealot 14/Brute 6 vs Zealot 13/Brute 7 and cannot decide which one is better at survival.

[Amechra]

Is there something that stop the zealot from entering rage in the middle of the rage?
I ask because I didn't saw something like this.
This means that your number 4 is wrong.
It is not a minute it is continuous.

And number 2, Fanatical Focus becomes ones per round as it take a bonus action to enter rage so you can just enter rage every one of your turns.

In my defense, I wrote that up at, like, 2AM, and I wasn't looking at my books. I shouldn't do such things.

So yeah, #2 and #4 are on the Zealot's side.


Barbarian can boost con to 22, which isn't that big, but worth mentioning.
And if we're looking at the whole class, dropping to 1 hit point is also handy. So is having advantage on death saves, while being awake when making them. That alone increases the brutes loss chance.

They get up to Con 24 from Primal Champion - Barbarians get a massive power increase at 20th level. I completely forgot about Relentless Rage as well.

---

As for the question of combining the two... I don't think you can really do so in an elegant way. Both of them get their first "it is pretty hard to kill me!" feature at around 6th level.

The real question is how other "this character is obnoxiously durable" subclasses compare, like a Monk of the Long Death (1 ki point to drop to 1 HP instead of 0 and proficiency in death saves) or an Ancients Paladin (1/long rest "drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP" feature, BIG pool of healing from Lay on Hands, and Elder Champion heals you for 10 HP at the beginning of each turn regardless of your current HP total).

[MaxWilson]

Is there something that stop the zealot from entering rage in the middle of the rage?

No, nothing stops them from beginning another rage, but that doesn't prevent the first rage from ending, which kills the Zealot if he's still at 0 HP. The first rage lasts for only one minute, and you die at the end of it if you're still at 0 HP. Beginning another rage doesn't change that.