Help! I'm the bad guy!

[Lord Kaldor]

Hello all,

First time poster but I've used quite a few very helpful resources from this group and thought this would be a good place to pose the following scenario and a few questions. I apologise in advance because I have quite a few thoughts about it.

I've been tasked with the ultimate goal of becoming the Big Bad Evil adversary who's aim is the destruction or subjugation of all that is good. (I tried to pitch a more sympathetic villain but my DM fears that the group would try to befriend me. He does not want that!) Please note also that none of this is set in stone so either of us I think would be open to any ideas or criticism.

To give some background, which I believe would be helpful: The land is ruled by a benevolent Kingly figure and beneath him he has a number of heirs and heiresses each of whom are the regional controllers of different areas supported by various allied factions. My character would be one such heir to the throne.

Next is the church which is also another "benevolent force for good." there may be certain members of this church that are the elite and perhaps use the church to their own ends even reaching into potential corruption but for the most part the church represents a force for good.

Additionally there are a number of different factions that are either good or bad but none necessarily have the power to challenge the standing ruler.

Unbeknownst to all but my immediate family and the elite clergy of the church is that the King is dead. The church and certain affiliates are using the absence of the ruler to gain and hold power and control over the country. They are also keeping this knowledge very tightly guarded.

So that's a little background..

Next we have my character. I'm not sure exactly what role/class/personality to play as but I want to be as inconspicuous as possible and the best way I can think to get there would be a gradual descent into evil. I would love to play a psion I think there is some good potential there. A thought i had was that perhaps my character is illegitimate or born out of adultery which would look very bad for the king and is slowly becoming more than murmurs in certain circles? Thus to protect his image a secret order was given by either the church or the an agent of the crown to eliminate my family? Thus giving me some motivation for revenge against the church/kingdom. I'm not sure, would like some ideas on this. What I hope to avoid is something too one dimensional.

My character's namesake would earn me the loyalty of three factions, one of which would possess an airship. The idea behind this would be that I would be pulling the strings behind the scene for them to help me obtain whatever ultimate goal I set. I also will have 5000gp to start (though not for my character to use on any immediate benefit but to supplement what will become my henchmen and minions)

So I hope that all that to some extent will set the stage. A few questions off the top of my head would be;

Why would I be evil and how would I hide it? So far in previous campaigns I haven't really done anything evil.

What do I use the gold on? I'm not very familiar with 3.5 but I know it's very flexible and robust. My thought would be something along the lines of attempting to manufacture airships to control the population from above? If I'm going to overthrow the church and crown I'm going to need some coin!

What character would be fun/effective for this? Could a psion work well?

While I love the idea of playing some sort of machievellian mastermind who somehow overthrows a powerful religious group (part of my goal as assigned by the DM) and assumes control over the country I am not such a clever man lol. How would I play one?

I'm able to position and set up my 3 factions across the land. Are there potential places I should be looking to have them try to secure? Major trade routes, port cities, mines? One of the factions is armed with an airship and a higher level NPC who would act as my second in command.


Anyway I know it's a lot to read and possibly a lot for a first post but I would love to hear some thoughts. Have you played a campaign where one of the players was the bad guy? How would you do it?

Tl:dr? I'm the big bad evil guy and my party is none the wiser. How do I make my quest for domination exciting and perhaps intriguing?

[Hellpyre]

A few questions - first, and most important: is this something you are comfortable doing? It will probably involve a lot of the sort of work that goes into DMing, but with an additional problem of being overruled by the actual DM.

On to more nitty-gritty questions:

2) Are you a regular party member? If yes, for how long is your character expected to stay with them? What happens if you die midadventure?

3) What sort of character level are you designing for? How is your character supposed to stack up compared to the party?

4) How is your DM costing hiring additional muscle? Better gear for thugs is nice, but action economy is king.

5) Are you going to pitch plans to the DM, or is he going to tell you what evil plots you have going?

[Demidos]

I would put some serious thought into having the DM tell the party that he is planning to possibly run an evil party member sometime in the next 1-2 campaigns.

1) Having one player be secretly evil and have a bunch of benefits because of it can rub a lot of players the wrong way, especially if this is a new style of gaming. Often they can end up frustrated or jealous.

2) Usually players simply assume that everyone is good and don't scrutinize their party members too hard when they commit questionable acts -- this is a GOOD thing, since it prevents the game from bogging down in pointless sense motive checks and countless alignment debates.

3) However, if you're going to have an evil party member, at least give them the chance to attempt sense motive or perception etc checks that they should rightfully be able to make, and you can make it a fun mini-game, to find out who the secret assassin party member is. Don't use their willingness to trust other players in the name of speeding up the game against them, or the next game without traitors is going to drag on forever and have much broken trust.

--------------------------------
Assuming you're going ahead with your plan, I think your best bet to break up a powerful organization is to find some faultline in their beliefs (e.g. Clerics of Wee Jas and Boccob get along, except on the issue of undead (I know Boccob mostly doesn't care, this is more an example to illustrate a point)), and then try to play up that faultline (e.g. give the Clerics of Wee Jas tools to animate undead, especially tools taken under shakily legal pretense from the church of Boccob). Put yourself as a supporter of both organizations, organize a meetup for them to work out their differences, and sabotage it. Maybe poison the food of one side, but then "warn them" and ensure there's no proof either way.

You'll need -- pull/credibility with both sides, divination blocking, and some disposable troops and income.
------------------------------
How's that for an evil plan?

[Glimbur]

Bards make great behind the scenes villains. Cha focus and social skills in class mean you can keep up appearances, and lots of subtle mind affecting magic lets you push it to the next level. Glibness, for example, is amazing for this level of deceit.

Psion has a lot of horsepower and could also work but you have to try harder to have all the basic social skills.

Manipulating your foes into destroying each other is good.

Why evil? Could have found an evil artifact but that feels unsatisfying. Maybe you think you could do a better job and are not afraid to do what it takes to get yourself on top. Foe the Greater Good and all. Maybe you just want to watch the world burn. Lots of possible motives.

[Telonius]

I actually ran a campaign where the BBEG took a similar route. (He was an NPC, not a player). Basically, he kept sending the heroes on missions that would uncover some really dishonorable thing going on with his higher-on-the-inheritance-chart siblings. The party got the attention, but their source of information stayed quiet until it was just the Queen left. At this point, he revealed himself as the source of most of the investigations, and the people bought it (happy to have an honorable member of the royal family left). He then organized an invasion against the capital. If the invaders won, he'd become regent; and repel the invaders; if they lost, he'd be the one to drive them out (since he had all their battle plans). Either way the Queen would be either killed or proved ineffective, and he'd seize control.

I believe he was built as a Tenebrous Apostate (slightly re-jiggered to make it devoted to another Vestige).

[Duff]

If I've understood correctly you aren't going to be playing a PC running a deep game, you're effectively playing a solo campaign running concurrently with the main party.
If I'm right, bard would be a good choice but any class with social skills is good. Sense motive is your crucial skill and you need to be looking deep.
The mindset you want is that everyone you meet is a tool - when you meet them, you ask yourself "What sort of things can they do, what are their buttons and how can I press them to make them move. So when you want something done, you scroll through your toolbox and get things done.
Where possible, you don't even speak to the "tool" yourself. You let them hear someone else saying the thing which will set them in motion, or you get a less skilled conspirator to think they need to set the tool in motion

Say you want to eliminate a rival;
You decide the PCs are the right tool for the job, all they need to get them going is to have a chat with the head of the town watch who knows about your rival. The head of the watch's wife runs an inn
You have a chat in the inn where the goodness and cleverness of the PCs is raised by the person you're talking to. She tells him. He approaches the PCs. When the PCs start to realise they are being used, they go back to the person who raised the subject, not you. All going well, 9 times out of 10 you don't even come up in the conversation.


But if I'm wrong...


3) However, if you're going to have an evil party member, at least give them the chance to attempt sense motive or perception etc checks that they should rightfully be able to make,
I'm going to respectfully disagree - they don't have to be able to make the check. Also note that unless what you do while with the party runs against your persona in the party, there would be no sense motive check.

So to eliminate that rival;
You - "Hey fellow adventurers, I have info about an evil criminal trying to corrupt the court"
Them - "Where did you get the info?"
You "It's a confidential source, I'm not free to tell you about". This is true. Sense motive confirms you are telling the truth as you know it and your motive here is that you want the evil criminal shut down (and maybe are looking forward to the fight/loot). Unless they are specifically wondering about your character's deeper motives there's no need for sense motive, but no issue if it succeeds.

And you/the GM certainly don't owe the party a chance of success on this roll

I'd be inclined to say if your players will feel betrayed without the sense motive checks, don't include a "plant" PC

[Seto]

A quick note: if your goal is to avoid the party befriending you, being Evil is nice ; being a jerk is even better. If you roleplay pettiness, arrogance, superiority and won't give them the time of day, it'll be much more personal than if you're JUST out to destroy the world.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'll summon Red Fel to help you.

Red Fel, Red Fel. The OP needs help to become evil. :smile:

[haplot]

Just a thought on what to spend money on, how about stuff which would generate more money, like businesses etc?

[Red Fel]

I'll summon Red Fel to help you.

Red Fel, Red Fel. The OP needs help to become evil. :smile:

Huh. How'd I miss this thread? Okay, let's go.


Hello all,

Hello, new friend.


First time poster but I've used quite a few very helpful resources from this group and thought this would be a good place to pose the following scenario and a few questions. I apologise in advance because I have quite a few thoughts about it.

I've been tasked with the ultimate goal of becoming the Big Bad Evil adversary who's aim is the destruction or subjugation of all that is good. (I tried to pitch a more sympathetic villain but my DM fears that the group would try to befriend me. He does not want that!) Please note also that none of this is set in stone so either of us I think would be open to any ideas or criticism.

Okay. So, in short: I want to make a character who will become the BBEG, but I don't want the party to like me. That's a problem, but we'll come back to it.


To give some background, which I believe would be helpful: The land is ruled by a benevolent Kingly figure and beneath him he has a number of heirs and heiresses each of whom are the regional controllers of different areas supported by various allied factions. My character would be one such heir to the throne.

Heirs to the throne are an excellent choice. Bald-faced ambition is always a fun motivator.


Next is the church which is also another "benevolent force for good." there may be certain members of this church that are the elite and perhaps use the church to their own ends even reaching into potential corruption but for the most part the church represents a force for good.

It sounds like your DM is a fan of unambiguous morality - good guys are good guys, with the exception of maybe one traitor; bad guys are bad guys, to be hated not loved; and the church is at worst incompetent, but otherwise good.

Just a hunch.


Additionally there are a number of different factions that are either good or bad but none necessarily have the power to challenge the standing ruler.

Unbeknownst to all but my immediate family and the elite clergy of the church is that the King is dead. The church and certain affiliates are using the absence of the ruler to gain and hold power and control over the country. They are also keeping this knowledge very tightly guarded.

Bald-faced ambition by the church. I sit corrected.


So that's a little background..

Next we have my character. I'm not sure exactly what role/class/personality to play as but I want to be as inconspicuous as possible and the best way I can think to get there would be a gradual descent into evil. I would love to play a psion I think there is some good potential there. A thought i had was that perhaps my character is illegitimate or born out of adultery which would look very bad for the king and is slowly becoming more than murmurs in certain circles? Thus to protect his image a secret order was given by either the church or the an agent of the crown to eliminate my family? Thus giving me some motivation for revenge against the church/kingdom. I'm not sure, would like some ideas on this. What I hope to avoid is something too one dimensional.

Fact is, that element, on its own, would by definition be one-dimensional. Rejected bastard offspring seeks revenge? That's nothing. Assuming you're going with a fairly typical fantasy kingdom, bastard offspring are a dime a dozen. Unless their claim is legitimated, it's just empty words; there's no reason to kill them.

Unless, you know, they have something that would let them prove their lineage. Like, say, a distinguishing birthmark or keepsake. (Does your game have Dragonmarks? Because those are great for this.)

Saying, "I was rejected so I want revenge" is indeed one-dimensional. Not that it's bad, mind you, it simply is what it is. The problem you face is that that isn't a gradual motivation. It's not one that slowly builds into a desire for revenge and destruction. It's just there.

What you want is a character who starts with - you know what? I'll hold off on this part until later. Wait for it.


My character's namesake would earn me the loyalty of three factions, one of which would possess an airship. The idea behind this would be that I would be pulling the strings behind the scene for them to help me obtain whatever ultimate goal I set. I also will have 5000gp to start (though not for my character to use on any immediate benefit but to supplement what will become my henchmen and minions)

Okay. I see a challenge here, but I'll address that, too. First, your questions.


So I hope that all that to some extent will set the stage. A few questions off the top of my head would be;

Why would I be evil and how would I hide it? So far in previous campaigns I haven't really done anything evil.

This is the biggest one. Why are you evil?

If you're going with the gradual descent idea, you actually might consider starting out not Evil, with no motive for revenge or destruction. That's the point of a gradual descent - your idealism fades, bitterness sets in, and you ultimately resolve to do what must be done.

If, on the other hand, you're evil from the outset, then this isn't a gradual plan. It's a long-term plan. And frankly, this is better suited to the "don't let the PCs like me" angle, because any "descent into darkness" arc comes with the possibility of redemption, but if you were secretly a jerk all along, nobody wants to see you improve.

But the question remains. Why are you evil? Wanting revenge for being rejected is a reason to spite the royal family, not to destroy or subjugate all that is good. So here's my advice.

You split the difference.

Picture it. You're not a bastard child. You're a legitimated noble. That's also your key to the party - fact is, if you're a jerk, they have no reason to want you around - more on that later - but if you're a jerk and a noble, they might find use in keeping you in the party.

The problem is, you're number 4 in line. Your elder siblings have various accomplishments - a decorated veteran, a respected arcane researcher, maybe one joined the clergy. You are never going to outperform them on the merits, and they're all in line ahead of you. You'll never get the throne that way.

Over the course of your adventures, you become aware of the factions and church maneuvering around the throne. You go to each in turn, offering them the chance to play kingmaker. Either they reject you outright, or back you but then fail. Each time, another disappointment, another rejection. It's not right, it's not fair. Your only mistake was being born fourth; why are you being punished for a crime that wasn't your fault?

Eventually, you sink into despair. Then deeper. You begin to reject them all. The factions. The church. Even the royal family, your own siblings. They're all obstacles. They're all tests. There is no justice in the world, no fundamental fairness. Your siblings win because they were born first. The church wins because it deludes the peasantry. What about you? Where's your victory? Where's your power?

So you begin to take power. That's how the rest of them did it; that's how you'll do it.

It's gradual, but it's starting from a place of open greed and ambition. You're starting somewhat evil, but finishing extremely Evil. By the time you're done, you no longer see power as a means to an end - the throne - but as an end unto itself. Power is the goal, and you will destroy as many innocent lives as it takes to achieve it.

That's one idea, anyway.


What do I use the gold on? I'm not very familiar with 3.5 but I know it's very flexible and robust. My thought would be something along the lines of attempting to manufacture airships to control the population from above? If I'm going to overthrow the church and crown I'm going to need some coin!

Here's the thing. If you're playing a jerk, the party isn't going to want you around. Unless you do something for them, of course.

That's what the gold is for. To reinforce your entourage. To ensure they get the best rooms at the inn, best food, access to the best smiths and magic libraries. Whatever they need, your gold and your connections pave the way. And they, in return, are your means to an end. They get you from place to place. You keep them fat and contented while you have your secret meetings and build your following. And at some point, their dungeon delving will bring you face to face with the artifact of ultimate power you've been seeking.

And that's when you pull the rug out. You see, one of the rules of how to get the PCs to truly hate an NPC is this: Take away their shinies. When you betray them, all the money you've been spending to make their lives easier goes away. Everything you've done for them, you take back. There is no surer way to guarantee their hatred than to make them dependent on you, and then take it all away.

So, short answer? Spend it on the party.


What character would be fun/effective for this? Could a psion work well?

Any character. A Fighter. A Wizard. A Psion works great too.

Just keep in mind that there are some tools better suited to the task. A Psion can enjoy the benefits of spellcasting undetected with just a Concentration check. You can use abilities to diplomance, brainwash, and communicate across distances. You can be engaging in meetings while also sitting with the party, and none will have to be the wiser.

But if you're clever, you can do it with anything. Hells, taking over the world with a Bard is basically a weekend activity.


While I love the idea of playing some sort of machievellian mastermind who somehow overthrows a powerful religious group (part of my goal as assigned by the DM) and assumes control over the country I am not such a clever man lol. How would I play one?

Overthrowing a religious order is easy. Determine their core tenets and core constituency. Set up a situation where you can "reveal" - whether true or not - that they have violated the former in front of the latter. Incite such a riot that they need to crack down on their own constituents. As soon as they do that, they're done - their own believers will rebel once they learn that disobedience is met with force.

But here's the thing. Being a schemer requires partnership with the DM. This is especially true if this stuff isn't second nature to you. What I suggest, if you can't come up with the ideas yourself, is that you hash out general concepts with the DM, and let the DM sort of pave the road for you to accomplish them. Need to foment rebellion? The DM can arrange that the PCs set out to capture some rebels - maybe you catch one alone and give him a secret message. Need to blackmail a church official? Maybe the DM allows the party to catch him in the act, you convince the party to be merciful, but make secret note of his conduct for future purposes. And so forth.


I'm able to position and set up my 3 factions across the land. Are there potential places I should be looking to have them try to secure? Major trade routes, port cities, mines? One of the factions is armed with an airship and a higher level NPC who would act as my second in command.

You've got the basic idea. A good rebellion needs several things: resources and manpower, first and foremost, but also easy access to travel routes, and secure bases. Controlling trade routes or access to a vital resource, such as food or water, is a major source of power; controlling water routes is also excellent. Having an unassailable base of operations is likewise valuable.


Anyway I know it's a lot to read and possibly a lot for a first post but I would love to hear some thoughts. Have you played a campaign where one of the players was the bad guy? How would you do it?

Tl:dr? I'm the big bad evil guy and my party is none the wiser. How do I make my quest for domination exciting and perhaps intriguing?

Fact is, I'd do it differently. I wouldn't hide it from the other PCs, because in my mind an Evil PC doesn't survive long keeping secrets from the party. But if your goal is to do a heel-face turn and betray them all, ensuring they won't like you later, I can see why you're doing it this way.

[Lord Kaldor]

Thanks for the great ideas some food for thought here.

I want to give each reply the response it deserves because I really appreciate the thoughtfulness. Today is a busy family day for me but I wholly intend to asap.

I showed my DM this thread and he said his preference would be that I've always been evil so it gives little room for sympathy. Luckily I've got some time before we get started on this but it's hard for me to fathom as I've always played some sort of good or sympathetic character.

[ExLibrisMortis]

From a mechanical point of view, Thrallherd might suit you. It gives you a set of minions that are so closely bound that they will die for you, and that means they're relatively secure (as compared to regular servants). It's an easy fit for a Telepath psion. You could even go full spy satellite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20332993&postcount=46). And you'll look incredibly evil when, rather than fighting the purple worm, you simply serve up a half-dozen believers and walk away (they will do this, and there's no penalty for it).

Another interesting build--but complicated--is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579458-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-The-Melding-Pot). It's very evil and very flexible. Lots of mechanical reasons for a quick murder here and there, too, if that's the sort of evil you're after (bags of rats are an acceptable substitute).

[denthor]

Ok.

I am not a clever as Red Fel. But evil can be me as well.

1. Secure your power base in the church. There must be more then one. Find an NPC. Who say no king over god! Twist this into the church has enemies within the royal line.

2. The party can become part of your secret. Nudge to evil. You know some guards. Which are loyal to:

you?
Money?
Rank?
Which are foolish enough not to be?
Bribery and information are a trade good.
Have the party kill good guards promote, pay off those that help them.

Once the guards are in place this is your base of operations.



Information :

Who will be where?
Costume parties wine women(succubus) can cause fires that kill royalty. Someone getting married for the third time or more no so formal.

Sell information to highest bidder.

Travel:

The party is your gold supply travel with them take on a monster or two. Get the gold.

[Bonzai]

Bards make great behind the scenes villains. Cha focus and social skills in class mean you can keep up appearances, and lots of subtle mind affecting magic lets you push it to the next level. Glibness, for example, is amazing for this level of deceit.

I second this. I ran a murder mystery campaign where the bard was the murderer. It was Bard 11/zhentarim spy. The Zhentarim spy basicaly gave him an alternate identity which was his public bard persona. He would use his status as a fairly well known bard to get easy access to places that would be very difficult to otherwise break into. He literaly would be invited in. He would never do the deed himself. He would use his magic abilities to compel others into killing them for him. As another layer of protection, he would always be disguised when he did the compulsion. So if his patsy fails and the compulsion is discovered, the finger s will be pointed at a false identity.

Using the campaign as an example. He was tasked with killing a local lord. He appeared at the town a day before the lords birthday and played at the inn. Of course when the Lord discovered that a famous bard was in town, he was invited to play at the Lords birthday celebration. He gave a great performance "in front of the players", mingled, and seduced one of the Lords relatives. He waited till she was asleep, put her under a magical sleep for good measure, and disguised himself as a guard. From there he magicaly compelled the Lords chamber guard to slay the Lord in his sleep, and made his way back to the bed room. There he was discovered by the guards doing room to room searches, naked and curled up with the Lords relative, where she attested that he had been all night. The players discovered the magical compulsion, but all the guard could say was that a guard he had never seen before had made him do it.

That is the approach I would take. Use people in low places to undermine those in high ones. Never do anything directly, and always cover your tracks.

I also used a sorcerer/blood magus as a cult leader that worked the hell out of the mother cyst feat. He would send in his cat familiar to rub up against his target's leg and deliver the implant cyst touch spell. If successful that person was pretty much at his mercy. He could be scry'd on, dominated, and even turned into a suicide bomber. What made the cult so terrifying was that you never knew who was under their control. Random peasants could attack you out of the blue, or a trusted friend could suddenly explode.

Hope this gives you ideas.

[Lord Kaldor]

Thanks again for these suggestions. I think I've got a lot more ideas I can work with.

Hellpyre - unsure about comfort level we can certainly see how far it goes though I think our group will be rather accepting. My hope would be that I could help make it an enjoyable experience. I think he wants me to be fairly powerful but most of my strength will probably lie in how well I utilize my factions. Unsure how he will be doing the financial end of this but we can work through it. Between the two of us it will be somewhat cooperative.

Demidos - I can see that and I respect the notion but I feel any clues for our people to look inward would easily reveal the "secret menace" unless the game was chock full of red herrings. I think the unsaid thing behind this idea is that while my character will have every intention to succeed both I and my DM favor the group's enjoyment. Also, divination blocking would be key...hmm.

Glimbur, I think you might have been one of the first to mention Bard as a good platform for this character. Definitely something I'll want to look into. My DM has more experience with 3.5e and playing Bard so I'll consult with him. Also I think it's pretty cheeky to play this type of character with a Bard.

Telonious - this is brilliant and essentially what I would be going for. It reminds me of some of the genius of Tywin Lannister's character and the siege of King's landing. I love the idea of winning no matter what the outcome is.

Duff - I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding but I will be playing my character alongside the other PCs. I will also have a side game going with the DM I suppose to determine how and what my forces are doing. I like the idea of pulling strings to cause the players to act in such a way that they look at one of the NPCs as the source, not myself. Might need to be some thing I arrange with the DM before games.

Haplot - definitely, one of the most efficient uses of money is on things that generate more money. Lol.

ExLibris - I remember looking at Thrallherd when I first got my psionics book... very interesting! Could really work well and it uses the one class I'm familiar with lol. Also another undoubtedly evil thing to send unwitting conscripts to do my dirty work. I didn't get a chance to check out the other setup up you mentioned but will give it a look soon.

Denthor - solid ideas about rooting myself into the church. At first my thought would be entirely dismissive of the church but after reading through I think my character would play whatever side he could. My thought would be I could pose the possibility to the party that while in its foundation the church was wholesome and good but there are many who seek to abuse its power. These people will exist and after discovering these corrupted officials the party could be convinced of more, perhaps?

RedFel - since you so succinctly dissected my post I wanted to be sure to respond appropriately lol. Thanks for the great input here. I believe my DM does like unambiguous morality to some extent though he tends to play morally ambiguous characters. Funny that way. I think I will do away with the rejected bastard background it is a little too much of a trope and I think if I start out being accepted and obviously royalty there could he some interesting pull I could get with that. It also lends itself into being somewhat of a hateful, conceited character, like Seto mentioned as well, but the rest of the party deals with it because I have clout and access, perhaps? This one might be tricky to work around but I'm sure we can work it out. I'd hate for the players to A. Be tipped off or B. Feel jealous/envious. I like your idea about the approach to the throne, I think the best way I could sell it to the party is that I am disinterested in the throne but the next in line would be tyrannical or dangerous. Unsure how I could deal with others without being obvious. The next part is one of my favorites and a very good idea. Using my gold to boost the party. I was thinking even having magical weapons or armor being made for the group by a faction affiliated with me unbeknownst to the players and then when it's the least convenient these weapons or armor drain them or hinder them in some way. Perhaps they cause the party to go into a frenzy in a completely peaceful place? This one will need to be ironed out with the DM. The same I think would go for any particularly "clever" scheming.

*edit*

Bonzai- great little narrative there about your scheming character. Very interested in this blood magus cult sorcerer with the mother cyst feat.

Anyways, thanks again all for these great ideas. Keep em coming if you've got it but I've got a fair amount to chew through already :)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One thing to note is that while Thrallherd is great, it is also incredibly suspicious if you want to be keeping your evil under wraps. As a specialist in mental domination and catspaws, everyone will be looking to your character first the second it looks like one of those is in play.

[Bartmanhomer]

I think the Book Of Vile Darkness is the ultimate guide to handle being evil. :wink:

[ExLibrisMortis]

One thing to note is that while Thrallherd is great, it is also incredibly suspicious if you want to be keeping your evil under wraps. As a specialist in mental domination and catspaws, everyone will be looking to your character first the second it looks like one of those is in play.
Only if the rest of the party knows you're a Thrallherd. I mean, if you're going for the whole "secret evil party member" angle, you can't have people looking at your character sheet. With the sheet secured, you just need to make sure that the rest of the party doesn't use Psicraft to recognize your dominate abilities, and you're good. The difference between thralls/believers and cohorts/followers is probably relatively easy to hide, and besides your Thrallherd ability, you're just another telepath psion.

[illyahr]

But if you're clever, you can do it with anything. Hells, taking over the world with a Bard is basically a weekend activity.

Can confirm as I have done it before. :smallbiggrin:

Hi, Red Fel. Hope your villainy is going well.

[Red Fel]

Can confirm as I have done it before. :smallbiggrin:

Hi, Red Fel. Hope your villainy is going well.

Hey chief. I manage. How's the whole Junior Tormlet thing working out?

[illyahr]

Hey chief. I manage. How's the whole Junior Tormlet thing working out?

Eh, got bored. Convinced different factions that it was their idea that I let them take over. You know how that goes.