Optimization In PF, how would you optimize for soloing Rappan Athuk? [Archive]

bundlesandflows

2019-12-05, 01:43 AM

What character creation rules are in use? Starting wealth, starting level, point buy, allowed sources (including 3.x), etc.

Well, since this is just a mental exercise for me, let's say... starting level 6 (but your character build should be strong at every point through level 20), 25 point-buy (Pathfinder count), WBL. PF material only (since that's where the challenge is—3.5e has a lot of tricks).

-What are the most notable threats this module runner would encounter throughout?

It's a large megadungeon with a lot of variety, so this one's tough. The long and short of it is:
- Fights are not necessarily CR appropriate. It's on the PCs to pick their fights carefully and make sure they don't walk into bad ones--and they need to have contingencies in case they do run into a bad one.
- Environment is horrible and frequently changing. It depends on the level of the dungeon, but in general one can expect something like difficult terrain, then wild magic, then underwater, then the floor is lava, then no teleportation, etc.
- Finding a safe spot to rest is very difficult all the time.
- The enemies are frequently pulling Tucker's kobolds against you, but they're not kobolds.
- SoD traps everywhere. Some are just D without the right skillset, e.g. antimagic'd collapsing tunnel with a hole in the ceiling.
- Loot and info gated behind all sorts of skill checks or utility spells.
- The module punishes players taking poorly calculated risks, incentivizing a very conservative, methodical, and mix-max approach to adventuring.

I frequently hear this module compared to Tomb of Horrors but worse, so make of that what you will. I do recommend picking up a copy of it if you're interested in a tough dungeon to run PCs through.

-What constitutes 'soloing?' If the character can use animate dead or planar binding or Leadership or wealth by level to acquire mercenaries/hirelings (who don't take EXP) or some other means of acquiring minions/pets/reinforcements, would that count?

Again, a mental exercise, so no Leadership and similar abilities. That's just playing with a second, slightly weaker PC. I'm OK with spending wealth on hirelings and pets since that's a drain on a valuable resource. Conjuration/summoning/binding/etc. spells I'm OK with, but many difficult-to-exit environments block their function, so that needs to be planned around.

Psyren

2019-12-05, 01:56 AM

In general, if you're soloing any module or campaign your GM should be allowing gestalt rules to give you a fair shake.

Assuming that's off the table, your next best bet is a class that gives you both powerful casting and strong melee presence. While the latter can come from summons or minions, you still want to be able to take a hit or two yourself. I'd recommend Synthesist Summoner (chained), Druid (w/ companion), or Oracle (e.g. Metal or Bones).

Endarire

2019-12-05, 04:44 AM

Let's assume an even tougher scenario where you must solo from level 1.

I'm voting Druid with an animal companion. Spend your starting cash on hirelings (especially trapspringers and healers) and armor for your pet. Get a sling so you can toss free rocks you found on the ground.

This is sounding more like World's Largest Dungeon, but many similarities exist.

tiercel

2019-12-05, 05:27 AM

Second version of “what do you mean by ‘soloing’?” — are we talking about a character who has a fighting chance to accrue N thousand gold pieces or advance to character level N from the dungeon, or by “solo the dungeon” are we talking more or less 100% completion, including notably the reason you Don’t Go Down The Well and, of course, soloing Orcus because

ha ha ha ha ha ha HA HAAH HA HA HA HA HA HA

I mean seriously, I only have the 3.5 version but
you have to show up on the final level naked and your “hello” is a CL 26 blasphemy—if you don’t somehow know that’s literally the first thing that happens, yeah, goodbye.

Also not so much with the summoning on that level. Or teleportation. Or most forms of flight. Or recovering divine spells.

Also Orcus, even maximally powered down, is statted as CR 35 and really, really isn’t encountered alone, leading the module to literally label the encounter “EL: Yes”.

Plus, y’know, all the text about how the final level has never even been reached, the PCs are not supposed to win, complete with a helpful illustration of Orcus and and his crew utterly TPKing a hapless group of adventurers.

exelsisxax

2019-12-05, 11:26 AM

Can't be done. There's far too many encounters that are simply punishment, and are simply unsurvivable by any single character with a level where you encounter them. There's magic immunity and AMF fields to screw casters, monsters with insane DR and regeneration on every level, and of course tons of SoDs on top of some flat out no save death spots. The dungeon is intentionally unfair, under-CRing monsters and arbitrarily giving them special qualities in favorable environments because it wants to kill PCs.

ngilop

2019-12-05, 11:53 AM

Of course you can solo it.

It is all about how far you want to go with your optimization?

Are you a regular player?

An Optimizing player?

A GiTper?

An advanced GiTPer?

This was a tournament adventure that is designed to make people NOT succeed. But, the honest truth is if you are at GiTPer or higher in tems of optimization it should be laughably easy, after all at that point you are casting 9th level spells at level 1 and early entering some crazy PrCs.

Kraynic

2019-12-05, 12:30 PM

Build a character with at least 12 WIS. Then, use this WIS score to justify them not risking their life in a notoriously difficult dungeon for the slight possibility of leaving rich and alive.

I think this answer is about right. I've only played a very small portion of it. There is an introductory dungeon that connects to the main bulk of Rappan Athuk. You start with level 1 characters, and have gnolls between the starting settlement and the entrance. Not too big of a deal, but don't wander around in the woods because there is a dire bear out there somewhere. Every so many minutes of play time in the dungeon you roll for a random encounter. And there are results on the random tables that you don't want to encounter, and you likely don't want anything to randomly show up during a regular encounter. There are multiple ways down through the levels, but when you enter a new level of the dungeon, you don't know what power level of creatures are there until you encounter them. Anything that becomes aware of you will usually have nasty tricks like summoning swarms on you and turning invisible so you are the only available target. The enemies will use flanking, cover, stealth, etc. against you. There will be ability point damage before you have a means to deal with it aside from resting for days. And this was the intro (the group only lasted until we hit level 3).

If you can never be surprised, never totally run out of resources, always notice (and disarm) the traps, and always know when to run away, you might just be able to solo a little bit of RA. That is the thing about soloing... everything is on your dice rolls. With no one to have your back, just a small string of bad luck for you (or good luck for your enemies) and you will be a stain on the floor somewhere. Or maybe not. Maybe your remains will be floating in a gelatinous cube instead. That would keep the dungeon a little more tidy.

Efrate

2019-12-05, 12:51 PM

Is there a pf version or you just running the 3.0 version? Iirc the first room has like a dc 30 search to find a switch to stop the room from being a pretty much no save just death, and thats at really low levels (1-3). And it gets worst. Its a meatgrinder, and without TO level stuff you are another pile of hamburger.

An early entry persistomancer of some sort and initiate of mystra with a ton of craft contingent spells and a personal amf that is likely EX somehow might do it. Its the extreme schrodingers wizard scenario. That doesnt come online until late enough usually to matter though.

Barring that months of divination to get as much info per floor as possible, to the level of hand me the module and let me plan for everything might do it.

Endarire

2019-12-05, 04:25 PM

From my brief research, Rappan Athuk comes in 3.0, PF, and 5e flavors at least.

Considering the module's length and difficulty, this seems better suited for a video game like Dark Souls.

zlefin

2019-12-05, 05:00 PM

How does the leveling process work in it? Milestone leveling or regular XP? If you're solo and it uses regular xp, then once you start leveling you'll end up 4 levels higher than a 4-man party would, which will enable a lot of abilities to come online sooner. Which for a tier 1-2 caster would make a lot of difference with access to the higher level spells.

I don't have it myself to look at. What does it do to prevent you from scouting with summons extensively?
How much does the dungeon regenerate encounters on a same level/force you to keep going?

Kaiwen

2019-12-09, 10:01 PM

The lowest difficulty level in Rappan Athuk is level 1C, which is for a party of 6 PCs at level "1-2". 6 level 2 PCs is party level 3.2, according to d20srd's encounter calculator, and 1 level 7 PC is party level 3, so that's probably a good starting point. (I'm not sure Pathfinder has an equivalent, but Pathfinder's probably close enough to 3.5 to equate these.)

And to give a trivial solution, meet Hill.

Hill
Elf wizard 3
Traits: Spark of creation
Feats: Craft wondrous item, 2 others
Gear: Mwk tool of Craft(Alchemy), 2950gp

Hill shows up in town one day with his alchemy set, some reagents, and very little else. Every day, he pays his inn fee (-2sp), casts Crafter's Fortune and Bestow Insight (Craft(Alchemy)) on himself, and gets to work earning his 2 magic capital with his Craft(Alchemy) check (take 10 +5int +2circ +3ranks +3prof +5luck +2insight= 30) (-150gp +3magic). He does this for 19 days, after which his funds have dwindled to 96gp, 2sp, and 57 magic capital.

Starting now, every day he spends 50gp and 9 magic capital to craft a 2000gp item which he sells for 1000gp. He does this for 6 days, after which he has 5795gp and 3 magic capital.

He repeats this cycle until he has enough to craft use-activated items of Wall of Iron and Fabricate, after which he uses that to make more money faster.

He continues to upgrade his productivity, and some years/decades/centuries finally he wades into the dungeon with arbitrary save, attack, AC, and skill bonuses.

legomaster00156

2019-12-09, 10:19 PM

SaintNick

2019-12-10, 01:37 AM

Well, since this is just a mental exercise for me, let's say... starting level 6 (but your character build should be strong at every point through level 20), 25 point-buy (Pathfinder count), WBL. PF material only (since that's where the challenge is—3.5e has a lot of tricks).

Since this is a thought experiment, the easiest way would be to abuse the Trompe L’oeil (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) template as a level 5+ wizard with Craft Construct. Given enough time you can simply send an army of epic level gods to do the dungeon for you.

Kaiwen

2019-12-10, 09:21 AM

Since this is a thought experiment, the easiest way would be to abuse the Trompe L’oeil (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) template as a level 5+ wizard with Craft Construct. Given enough time you can simply send an army of epic level gods to do the dungeon for you.

While we're on the topic, it should be noted that intelligent magic items are treated as 0HD constructs regardless of any powers they may have, so you can create a Trompe L'oeil of one for a mere 500gp.

Intelligent item powers may include any spell up to 7th level castable at will on the wearer's initiative using the item's actions. This includes fun things like Emergency Force Sphere (Wings of cover for Pathfinder) and Dazing Ball Lightning (dc19 reflex vs daze 10/round). It's like beholder mage, but better!

And that's to say nothing of the base magic items, which you're getting for 1 day of work and 500gp. If your DM rules that you can't buy paintings of exotic magic items, you can make them yourself with Fabricate, or just Henderson them into your starting gear.

Quertus

2019-12-10, 12:05 PM

I know nothing about the module, and almost nothing about Pathfinder. However, I do know that Pathfinder has good PC/monster transparency, in that level = CR.

So, play as a monster that ignores death, like a Trompe L’oeil. If there's a time limit, like in World's Largest Dungeon, just have your goal be "destroy the world", and you automatically win in a few weeks.

Or play something with stealth and Earth glide. Sneak through the module, carefully evaluating whether or not you want to engage.

Or… it's like Tomb of Horrors? Beat it the same way - strip mine it from above.

So, to combine all that: be a Trompe L’oeil of a stealthy creature with earth glide, who hires a bunch of peasants to strip mine the place in the hopes of bringing about the apocalypse.

Zancloufer

2019-12-10, 12:15 PM

FYI I quickly looked the module up so not entirely sure it's complete contents.

You probably can't. If you consider SURVIVING the fight with Orcus at the end a "complete solo" then maybe. Even then unless you have some way to be immune to Blashphemy (or it's most powerful effects) Orcus straight up just ends the module. Should probably pack Poison, Instant Death, FoM and an evil alignment to even stand a chance in that last room. Not sure how well it would go clearing the rest of the Dungeon but fighting Orcus without taking out his three temples/shrines first is almost suicide.

Eldonauran

2019-12-10, 01:11 PM

I am sure it can be done with the right kind of character build and a good bit of luck (and/or luck manipulation). Find a class that gets all of the following:

Lots of skills
Support (buffing) Magic
Decent HD
Self-healing abilities (preferably with multiplicative effects)
Ability to summon and buff monsters
Very low reliance on feats to be effective
Reach tactics (ie, fighting at a decent range, but no real reliance on ranged attacks)
Full BAB or close to it (ie, 3/4 BAB with self-buffs, like arcane pool)

If you can get all of that, you probably could make it a quite deep, provided luck isn't against you the whole time.

Psyren

2019-12-10, 02:08 PM

Silence makes you immune to Blasphemy if that helps; there''s also Greater Spell Immunity and Aroden's Spellbane if you're very high level.

Xervous

2019-12-10, 02:09 PM

Assuming a single character IS soloing it, what range of levels will said character be at the start and end of each floor? Are the RAW xp rewards insufficient to carry even a party, or are we looking at values that will lead to an inflated level for our soloist?

Endarire

2019-12-11, 02:55 AM

Xervous: Rappan Athuk is intended to put 2 parties by its end at level 20 from level 1. I'm totally fine with being ahead of the level curve to compensate for soloing!

Elkad

2019-12-11, 07:22 AM

You WILL fail a saving throw that is unsurvivable without party members to support you, and it will happen early.

So minionomancy is the only thing that will work. Lots of minions. And they have to be capable of independent thought, so not a horde of zombies or guard dogs.

Xervous

2019-12-11, 08:12 AM

Xervous: Rappan Athuk is intended to put 2 parties by its end at level 20 from level 1. I'm totally fine with being ahead of the level curve to compensate for soloing!

Wonderful! This raises the side question of whether or not our soloist is allowed to go epic. The more important Q is how far ahead this accelerated leveling will place the soloist. Developing a list of the expected soloist level at the start of each floor could go a long way towards assessing the difficulty of each floor.

Quertus

2019-12-11, 09:18 AM

Oh, if there's not a time limit… wait… this is Pathfinder. You don't lose XP for crafting. … Is there any way to take advantage of all that XP, other than just getting ahead of the XP curve?

You WILL fail a saving throw that is unsurvivable without party members to support you, and it will happen early.

So minionomancy is the only thing that will work. Lots of minions. And they have to be capable of independent thought, so not a horde of zombies or guard dogs.

And, if you are a Trompe L'oeil, do you care? Is there a time limit? Saves that you won't just shrug and say, "Oh, look. I died again. Guess I know what to look out for next time / better luck next time."?

-----

EDIT - also, not knowing Pathfinder, is there a good stealthy earth glide creature to solo the module as a Trompe L'oeil of?

EDIT 2 - do Pathfinder Mythic rules make this any easier?

stack

2019-12-11, 10:04 AM

EDIT 2 - do Pathfinder Mythic rules make this any easier?

If you have mythic ranks in a non-mythic campaign, you will be much better off. Assuming a caster of some sort, you will basically be able to get whatever spell you want off your list X times a day and in general you will be much harder to kill (depends on rank, of course).

Endarire

2019-12-11, 04:39 PM

In Spheres of Power, the Alteration Sphere allows you to transform into a Small/Medium Earth Elemental at level 1 for Earth Glide for 1 minute per level a certain number of times per day. (You can transform into Air/Water/Fire Elementals as well.) You don't automatically get any other abilities, though.

Sleven

2019-12-12, 08:26 PM

I'm a 3.5 player, so I can't speak to the details of Pathfinder. But I've never encountered a printed module, campaign, or scenario that I couldn't solo as long as it was required to play by the rules. Judging by some of the comments, that's in doubt. For example, how can they force you to show up to the final place without gear no matter what? Sounds like DM fiat, not the rules or a "challenge". All fair play has counter-play.

Generally for such challenges, when given no information about what to expect, I go with Psion. However, I see no reason I couldn't do this with a bard. If someone wants to run it, I'll do a 3.5 solo run. Could be fun.

exelsisxax

2019-12-13, 09:55 AM

tiercel

2019-12-13, 03:48 PM

Barring that months of divination to get as much info per floor as possible, to the level of hand me the module and let me plan for everything might do it.

Basically this, especially because the module not only isn’t linear but really really isn’t linear in difficulty in any particular path you might take. You can be all, zombies, ogre, beholder, goblins, rats, custom templated class levels CR 20 monster with minions, goblins, sort of thing. Yeah, sometimes you’ll get to the “hm looks like I’m coming up on a Temple of Orcus” indication that there are Really Bad Things ahead, but other times what you have is “open the door” or even “wandering encounter” that basically amounts to “hi, I’m Death and I’m here to eat your soul nom nom nom oh you’re dead.”

If you have perfect “I’ve read the whole module and can refer to it at will” knowledge, then you can try to play Batman, but without infinite divinations or infinite minionmancy, you probably really don’t.

But I've never encountered a printed module, campaign, or scenario that I couldn't solo as long as it was required to play by the rules. Judging by some of the comments, that's in doubt. For example, how can they force you to show up to the final place without gear no matter what? Sounds like DM fiat, not the rules or a "challenge". All fair play has counter-play.

Not sure what you mean here by “play by the rules” since virtually every module introduces some set of rules for new spells, items, monsters, and/or locations. In the case of RA’s entrance to the final level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24294113&postcount=8)(at least in the 3.5 version),

The only entrance to the final level is a portal you can only enter if you are literally naked except for a coating of your own blood, because, Orcus. You are allowed to bring your gear, but you can’t be wearing any of it when you pass through the portal.

This condition is discoverable in-module.

The blasphemy that hits you in the face upon entering the final level, not so easily; presumably enough divinations might reveal it, but while casting silence on yourself might save you, it can’t if you don’t know what’s coming and so don’t cast it — and even if you do, are you going to stay permanently self-silenced? Because more blasphemy is a random encounter on the final level, which you’d also need to know.

Basically, really, blasphemy is just a time-saving filter because if you don’t have enough class levels to walk right through it without silence or being evil, then encountering even maximally de-powered, all-his-temples-destroyed Orcus, much less his mob, will get your character utterly cheesed (in the words of Sir Terry Pratchett, “Like creamed, but it goes on for a lot longer.“) —Not that Orcus couldn’t go straight to rendering “fine red mist,” but he seems like exactly the type to make would-be opponents into chew toys rather than any kind of merciful death.

However, I see no reason I couldn't do this with a bard. If someone wants to run it, I'll do a 3.5 solo run. Could be fun.

No knock against bards - I often think they are underrated, or at least suffer from lack of well-known positive archetypes (in the general having-a-famous-exemplar sense, not the PF sense), but boldly claiming to be able to solo RA with any class makes me think of the movie The Gamers: Dorkness Rising and having a stack of replacement character sheets:

Hide behind the mound of dead bards!

Kraynic

2019-12-13, 04:54 PM

Basically this, especially because the module not only isn’t linear but really really isn’t linear in difficulty in any particular path you might take. You can be all, zombies, ogre, beholder, goblins, rats, custom templated class levels CR 20 monster with minions, goblins, sort of thing. Yeah, sometimes you’ll get to the “hm looks like I’m coming up on a Temple of Orcus” indication that there are Really Bad Things ahead, but other times what you have is “open the door” or even “wandering encounter” that basically amounts to “hi, I’m Death and I’m here to eat your soul nom nom nom oh you’re dead.”

If you have perfect “I’ve read the whole module and can refer to it at will” knowledge, then you can try to play Batman, but without infinite divinations or infinite minionmancy, you probably really don’t.

I'm relatively certain that it would require the "read the whole module" bit because (if I remember right) there are whole levels that are shielded from divination and don't allow teleportation.

Sleven

2019-12-15, 08:43 PM

Not sure what you mean here by “play by the rules” since virtually every module introduces some set of rules for new spells, items, monsters, and/or locations.

They really don't though. For example, new monsters still need to draw from the same set of abilities (AC, Regeneration, DR, Poison, etc.) which all follow the same basic game rules. Things that ignore the basic game rules in an attempt to "screw the player" are what I'm talking about. For example, a trap that the module doesn't allow a Search check to notice.

The only entrance to the final level is a portal you can only enter if you are literally naked except for a coating of your own blood, because, Orcus. You are allowed to bring your gear, but you can’t be wearing any of it when you pass through the portal.

Per the rules, portal keys can be virtually anything so I see no breach of the rules here. That being said, I see no reason a player couldn't just Gate in to this encounter or vice-versa. And therein lies the crux of the issue with taking the module's word as all-inclusive (i.e. there is no other way to do this than what's printed here). The fact is, no module writer can cover all the bases.

blasphemy

I'm assuming we know we're going to be facing demons at the very least at this point in the module, or have some idea this place is dedicated to a demon lord? Blasphemy is an extremely common tool used by high level demons and other evil outsiders, so I don't see why a player wouldn't be prepared for it.

encountering even maximally de-powered, all-his-temples-destroyed Orcus, much less his mob, will get your character utterly cheesed (in the words of Sir Terry Pratchett, “Like creamed, but it goes on for a lot longer.“) —Not that Orcus couldn’t go straight to rendering “fine red mist,” but he seems like exactly the type to make would-be opponents into chew toys rather than any kind of merciful death.

Simply making the claim Orcus is unbeatable and can have his way with whomever doesn't make it so.

boldly claiming to be able to solo RA with any class

Considering the fact that it's not that difficult to Pun-Pun a commoner at level 1, this isn't that bold a claim. So obviously there would have to be some negotiating as to what I was actually allowed to bring to the table. Earlier in the thread someone gave a list of abilities it would take to get through the module, and though I disagree with the claim that most of them are "necessary", I would have little trouble crafting a build that could hit all of them or obviate the need for them.

zlefin

2019-12-15, 09:25 PM

Oh, if there's not a time limit… wait… this is Pathfinder. You don't lose XP for crafting. … Is there any way to take advantage of all that XP, other than just getting ahead of the XP curve?

And, if you are a Trompe L'oeil, do you care? Is there a time limit? Saves that you won't just shrug and say, "Oh, look. I died again. Guess I know what to look out for next time / better luck next time."?

-----

EDIT - also, not knowing Pathfinder, is there a good stealthy earth glide creature to solo the module as a Trompe L'oeil of?

EDIT 2 - do Pathfinder Mythic rules make this any easier?

pathfinder mythic rules would make it alot easier iirc (if the enemies don't also gain mythic, otherwise it's largely a wash); depending at least on how you hand them out. Mythic gives a number of power boosts, very sizeable ones for some of the mythic paths. It also has quite a few "if you're mythic vs a non-mythic" things which are quite powerful.

tomandtish

2019-12-15, 09:55 PM

I'm relatively certain that it would require the "read the whole module" bit because (if I remember right) there are whole levels that are shielded from divination and don't allow teleportation.

There are also places that actively prevent spell recovery.

Efrate

2019-12-16, 09:08 AM

I started reading through the pdf last night. Without trompe cheese I do not see it being viable. There are groups of 100s of enemies that attack or rob you when resources are low. Several groups of well above your expected level specifically attack you when you are sleeping. Also multiple things more than double your CR are randomly encounterable. Cr 14 or so when you are supposed to be level 4 as a party 6.

Xervous

2019-12-16, 12:25 PM

I’ve started to review the pdf and while those ambushing groups are particularly nasty there’s (at least in the 3.5 version which I could get ahold of) guidance for the GM to not immediately drop a bandit group, or the red dragon on the party.

If this challenge places Rob Solo at the start of the dungeon, EL4, obviously he won’t have to deal with the topsider ambushes until he returns from a foray. Depending on what rules will be in place for this challenge, he may be allowed to apply his level up(s) before surfacing which in turn could mean he’s a EL6+ character after a shallow delve, and now overburdened with enough loot to make a Monty GM blush. Hiding choice pieces from the ambushers would still yield a considerable haul as a stopgap measure until Rob can consistently beat out perception with his stealth.

Now I don’t know how drastically things changed for the pf update but Mr Solo looks to be on his way to swimming in xp for every thing he manages to overcome, defeat, or otherwise bypass. It’s suggested that xp is awarded for overcoming the initial trap and the wording suggests using the key counts for this, making the simple act of opening the door to Rappan Athuk grant the 4th level Rob the xp rewards for a CR8 trap. As per the 3.5 version that means Rob dings level 5... just for opening the door. With pathfinder xp rates he’s 200 off level 5 (assuming medium xp progress rate). With some decent prep and optimization I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect Rob can get his toes wet, then cash out on some encounters and easy traps to build a level advantage. Whether or not we’re using the module’s suggested leniency for low level parties may play a big part in whether Rob has a decent chance at getting started.

My initial thoughts are something of a Rogue chassis given the importance of stealth, perception, skillpoints, and the likely xp + safety benefits of being able to defuse traps.

Mike Miller

2019-12-16, 12:32 PM

Kaiwen

2019-12-16, 01:21 PM

There are also places that actively prevent spell recovery.

You can stick a portable hole on the wall and rest in there. You're no longer in the room, or even in the same dimension–now you're somewhere on the astral plane, far away from any rude effects.

exelsisxax

2019-12-16, 02:08 PM

You can stick a portable hole on the wall and rest in there. You're no longer in the room, or even in the same dimension–now you're somewhere on the astral plane, far away from any rude effects.

There are places in RA where that causes you to die, no save, and many more places where extra-dimensional items or effects do not function.

Sleven

2019-12-16, 10:03 PM

How interested are you and what medium do you prefer? opens his RA pdf

Legitimately interested. I prefer sit-down, whether it's online or in-person. However, seeing as this is turning into an actual challenge thread, the slow tedium of play-by-post might have demonstrative value for interested parties. Still, play-by-post does require a lot of setup to get all the coordinates right so that positioning can be properly communicated and I wouldn't want to create extra work for anyone.

Regardless of the medium, I will request the following:
- We play rules-as-written.
- All 1st party sources be available at minimum, with a preference for all officially licensed sources being available.
- Level-ups from experience occur immediately upon the conclusion of any given encounter (presumably there won't be the months of downtime between level-ups traditionally expected by the DMG).
- A negotiation of which ways I'm required to limit myself with regards to character building in order to be considered to have "met the challenge".

Possible fun options:
- You can pick my class so long as it is tier 3 or higher according to the spellcasting tier list (not the community tier list)
e.g.
Tier 1 ("Prepared" casters) = Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, StP Erudite, etc.
Tier 2 (Spontaneous choice list) = Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Spirit Shaman, Mystic, etc.
Tier 3 (Spontaneous fixed/limited list) = Templar, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Bard, etc.
Tier 4 (Partial casters, martial adepts, and alternative systems) = Artificer, Spellthief, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, etc.
Tier 5 (Mundanes) = Monk, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter, Scout, etc.
- Or we could say screw it all if you actually want to see me god-stomp it with a commoner.

Kaiwen

2019-12-16, 10:18 PM

tiercel

2019-12-17, 04:03 AM

I'm assuming we know we're going to be facing demons at the very least at this point in the module, or have some idea this place is dedicated to a demon lord? Blasphemy is an extremely common tool used by high level demons and other evil outsiders, so I don't see why a player wouldn't be prepared for it.

Without any active worn gear, and at a particularly high CL, are the points of this particular spell incidence. However, I did also note that this particular blasphemy is pretty much just a “do you even belong on this level at all?” filter.

Simply making the claim Orcus is unbeatable and can have his way with whomever doesn't make it so.

As if anything is truly unbeatable, but it’s not simply the claim, it’s the CR and the entourage and the stats and the artifact to boot.

I suppose we could have a discussion about whether the given stats and abilities of the fully-powered-down Orcus merit CR 35, or what CR 35 even means once we have ventured into the broken madness of Epic levels, but if the CR is even vaguely appropriate then, at the very least, Orcus should be well out of reach for any quasi-reasonable (e.g. no-infinite-cheese) non-epic PC.

Sure, if the authors wanted Orcus to be fiat-unbeatable, they’d have given him the no-stats Lady of Pain treatment, but it’s not entirely clear that even “farming” Rappan Athuk to powerlevel would get PCs to a level on par with the claimed CR.

Considering the fact that it's not that difficult to Pun-Pun a commoner at level 1, this isn't that bold a claim.

Pun-pun... isn’t really a playable character, any more than the Lady of Pain is a viable challenge. If nothing else, any campaign world that allows for avenues to easy infinite power has to include the nigh-certainty that entities like Orcus would have very certainly already used them (and, very likely, acted to thwart others from doing so as well).

Xervous

2019-12-17, 07:49 AM

- Level-ups from experience occur immediately upon the conclusion of any given encounter (presumably there won't be the months of downtime between level-ups traditionally expected by the DMG).
Open door, level up!

Other parameters to consider.
- do you start at the mausoleum or is the starting point going to require wilderness travel?
- does the gm guidance on leniency for low level characters apply, and if so what’s the cutoff point for this protection to cease?
-closest town for selling and buying items at, along with what you can get there.

Mike Miller

2019-12-17, 10:25 AM

Legitimately interested. I prefer sit-down, whether it's online or in-person. However, seeing as this is turning into an actual challenge thread, the slow tedium of play-by-post might have demonstrative value for interested parties. Still, play-by-post does require a lot of setup to get all the coordinates right so that positioning can be properly communicated and I wouldn't want to create extra work for anyone.

Regardless of the medium, I will request the following:
- We play rules-as-written.
- All 1st party sources be available at minimum, with a preference for all officially licensed sources being available.
- Level-ups from experience occur immediately upon the conclusion of any given encounter (presumably there won't be the months of downtime between level-ups traditionally expected by the DMG).
- A negotiation of which ways I'm required to limit myself with regards to character building in order to be considered to have "met the challenge".

Possible fun options:
- You can pick my class so long as it is tier 3 or higher according to the spellcasting tier list (not the community tier list)
e.g.
Tier 1 ("Prepared" casters) = Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, StP Erudite, etc.
Tier 2 (Spontaneous choice list) = Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Spirit Shaman, Mystic, etc.
Tier 3 (Spontaneous fixed/limited list) = Templar, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Bard, etc.
Tier 4 (Partial casters, martial adepts, and alternative systems) = Artificer, Spellthief, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, etc.
Tier 5 (Mundanes) = Monk, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter, Scout, etc.
- Or we could say screw it all if you actually want to see me god-stomp it with a commoner.

Sources sound good. Limiting things is probably a fast way to ensure failure. Leveling on the spot is fine. I don't think you could succeed otherwise. The exception imo would be that you don't instantly gain prepared spell slots. How is that? Still need a rest?

Yes OP was PF but Sleven and I do 3.5. Maybe we need a new thread somewhere. Or maybe we can just do online live and I can post updates to avoid the tedium of coordinating a map in PbP?

Also, the starting level needs to be chosen. Obviously the module was meant for a party so the recommended start level isn't likely high enough... Unless you want a crazy challenge. Also, should we stick with full XP or some fraction of it? I think if you do start killing stuff, full XP may push you into high enough levels that no challenge remains. I suppose only time will tell. Getting started might be the hardest part.

Kaiwen

2019-12-17, 11:27 AM

Also, the starting level needs to be chosen. Obviously the module was meant for a party so the recommended start level isn't likely high enough... Unless you want a crazy challenge. Also, should we stick with full XP or some fraction of it? I think if you do start killing stuff, full XP may push you into high enough levels that no challenge remains. I suppose only time will tell. Getting started might be the hardest part.

If downtime in town before entering the dungeon is allowed, with enough money (via profession or craft) you can buy and kill mules 1 at a time up to level 9.

Xervous

2019-12-17, 11:43 AM

Even with accelerated leveling there’s a lot of save or lose which for a soloist is just a polite way of saying save or die. Add in the scattered conditional no save just lose features and the question isn’t so much whether or not one can solo, but if they can survive long enough to outlevel the rest of the challenges. You’re up against a set progression curve and past a point there will be some input that yields runaway returns, the main obstacle is going to be something that stops such a character short.

Short of obtaining numerous reroll methods, ways to not fail on nat 1s or outright immunity there is a large chance a character will get chewed up by the relentless onslaught of save or lose effects. Instead of being setbacks for a party, these effects just end the run. If the character can’t swiftly level to a point where they can mitigate these effects they’ll be beating Rappan Athuk by luck more than anything.

Efrate

2019-12-17, 12:01 PM

In 3.5 i would be much more reasonable to see someone solo. The ceiling is so much higher even without NI everything cheese. Persistomancy, personal amf that does not effect you, circle magic, huge metamagic reducers, polymorph, shapechange, planar binding, etc. So much if that is a no go in PF.

Same with nost SoL spells being nerfed so its save or be temporarily inconvenienced since you get save a every round for most. Same with easy immunities, less of that for the things that matter.

The Shadowmind

2019-12-17, 01:12 PM

If starting from level 1, and given gestalt and mythic rules:
How well would a dual discpline Psion(telepath/shaper)//Slayer(Judge)-Luck Domain, Race Android.
Alignment: Evil.
Take the trait to regain Riven Hourglass, as well as trade out something for Radiant Dawn. I'd drop Solar Wind, and Thrashing dragon.
She can start out with Advanced Constructs for a hr/level minion for setting off traps, and a psycrtal that is hard to detect for scouting.
Starting with Surging Psionics, means before adding anything level, the Construct is ML 3, while 3 hours for the utility construct until it needs to actually fight.
Luck domain doesn't do much until level 6, but will be providing rerolls then. Mighty Construct (Su) as the Mythic power.

Kaouse

2019-12-17, 09:31 PM

I'd probably pick an Ascendant Aegis. It allows you to access customizations from other Aegis archetypes. Use it to grab Metanode from Coral Knight or Potential from Host of Heroes. Use it to grab Astral Construct, and let it do everything for you. If it does, book it back to safety and try again tomorrow.

By level 2, you can get some personal survivability with the Crusader's Shield veil, which you can use as an immediate action with lesser Chakra bind.

You can get early rerolls from Spheres of Power. I suggest the War Sphere with the Battlefield Manipulation drawback. Get the rally that lets you reroll. Ascendant Aegis gets access to Spheres by level 5.

Trade proficiency **** for Guardian Sphere talents, specifically Endure Pain. Taking an Oath for more talents is awesome.

Using Initiator's Soul and extra feat from the Eidolon list (courtesy of Ascendant archetype) to grab Advanced Study, you can have Temporal Body Adjustment as early as level 7.

By level 8, you have access to almost any Sphere talent at the cost of two CP, which you get via both Augment Suit and Initiator's Soul. Should make getting the right Life Sphere talent easy for condition removal.

After that, just play safely, I guess. Maybe Orbital Strike enemies with Radiant Dawn's Sunstroke combined with the Armory of the Conqueror veil.

You get access to pretty much anything at this level. Gestalting with Living Legend Soulknife really helps, since it makes you INT-sad.

Endarire

2019-12-18, 01:33 AM

3.5 has the advantage of a Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold Domain for trappin'. I planned this for the World's Largest Dungeon solo, but this may also apply here:

Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric1 (Domains: Magic, Knowledge, Kobold)/Wizard1 (Conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt, oppose Abjuration/Necromancy)/Cloistered Cleric+1/Mystic Theurge3/Dweomerkeeper4/Mystic Theurge+7/Ultimate MagusX. I assumed no retraining, but if you can retrain, go ahead. I also assumed no ready access to material components, but if you can get them, Dweomerkeeper matters less: Load up on MT sooner for more spells!

Requires feats: Alternative Source Spell @3, Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell @1, Heighten Spell @1, Summon Elemental @1 and Craft Wondrous Item (or any craft feat) @6.

I recommend you start with all base 18s. You're soloing. This is mercy.

It's very RAWy, but this way you can rely on animated dead and planar bound minions (via the Rune Domain, at least initially) to get you through much of the pain. Lichdom ASAP may be worthwhile. Leadership, simulacrum, and other means of gaining minions will help.

Enjoy!

Spore

2019-12-18, 04:05 AM

I feel it is doable if you know the module and encounters on a surface level. So you know dungeon level 4 has e.g. an army of orcs, level 7 has an adult red dragon. Because else it is really just a coin toss if you can get started with your strategy. The strategy at Lv 1-5 comes from interparty play which there is none.

If you don't know anything, your best bet is "blanket stupid things" like auto-win buttons or stacking immunities. Personally I would try for Paladin 2/Oracle x with high Charisma and Con/Dex. Race is something with water breathing and swim speed, a bonus to Cha and possibly Con. I might just run an Agathionblood Aasimar with the variant ability of Swim Speed 20 ft. Afterwards I'd probably pick Dual-Cursed (Haunted/Shadow-Bound) with the Fortune and Misfortune revelations. The build will come together at 7th or 8th before then a fes bad rolls just kill you.

Kaiwen

2019-12-18, 10:35 AM

stack

2019-12-18, 11:11 AM

legomaster00156

2019-12-18, 11:13 AM

Making a cheesy custom race via the race builder would help. Plant type gives you immunity to mind-affecting, which shuts down a decent number of nasty effects. Not something I normally advocate, but cheese of some sort is basically required for the task.
Once you involve homebrew, you might as well give yourself a class that gives you all of the powers of all of the classes at level 1.

stack

2019-12-18, 11:52 AM

Once you involve homebrew, you might as well give yourself a class that gives you all of the powers of all of the classes at level 1.

If you can do that with a Paizo-published class builder, sure. The race builder may be broken, but it is official 1st party content for the system specified in the title.

Kaiwen

2019-12-18, 12:03 PM

Once you involve homebrew, you might as well give yourself a class that gives you all of the powers of all of the classes at level 1.
Well that's certainly a slippery slope. Pathfinder custom races is presented as a variant rule, so it's not nearly as ridiculous as you're making it sound. We've already had mention of gestalt a few posts ago, which is IMO worse anyways.

A better way of getting immunities is probably just to be resurrected as a skeletal champion at cl1 by a friendly cleric. The chief problem, of course, is that the boss of the dungeon is Orcus...

legomaster00156

2019-12-18, 12:57 PM

Well that's certainly a slippery slope. Pathfinder custom races is presented as a variant rule, so it's not nearly as ridiculous as you're making it sound. We've already had mention of gestalt a few posts ago, which is IMO worse anyways.

A better way of getting immunities is probably just to be resurrected as a skeletal champion at cl1 by a friendly cleric. The chief problem, of course, is that the boss of the dungeon is Orcus...
You're missing my point, which is that once you start homebrewing, of course you can build something to solo anything you like. However, this ruins the spirit of the challenge.

MeimuHakurei

2019-12-18, 02:05 PM

You're missing my point, which is that once you start homebrewing, of course you can build something to solo anything you like. However, this ruins the spirit of the challenge.

Whoever wants to run the challenge as the DM should lay out some ground rules on what is and isn't acceptable. I agree, however, that 3rd party rules should not be taken as the module maker can/should not be expected to balance around their abilities.

Quertus

2019-12-18, 06:33 PM

So, is there a verdict on the evil, strip-mining (stealthy? Earth-gliding?) Trompe L'oeil?

Sleven

2019-12-18, 10:55 PM

if the CR is even vaguely appropriate then, at the very least, Orcus should be well out of reach for any quasi-reasonable (e.g. no-infinite-cheese) non-epic PC.

This is, of course, nonsense. The challenge of any given encounter will always depend on player and character circumstances. No two challenges are the same for any given player or character. Within that variance, there isn't a printed challenge short of divine ranks that's out of reach for a level 20 stock wizard. Infinite anything need not apply. It's all about approaching the challenge with the right mindset and viewing your resources through a creative lens. The system rewards creative thinking skills quite well, which is one of the best features it has. Heck, even a commoner with appropriate WBL and the right purchasing decisions can tackle anything in print.

Other parameters to consider.
- do you start at the mausoleum or is the starting point going to require wilderness travel?
- does the gm guidance on leniency for low level characters apply, and if so what’s the cutoff point for this protection to cease?
-closest town for selling and buying items at, along with what you can get there.

- I haven't looked at the module, so I leave that up to the DM. I assume different starting points require different starting ECLs and trust that will be respected.
- I would leave that to the GM after we negotiate what is and isn't considered sporting for me to use in any given build.
- If the module doesn't include a town nearby the dungeon, it might be something to consider. At a certain point this won't matter since any character I intend to bring will be capable of traveling to planar metropolises. Since I've requested a rules-as-written table, this means I'll have my choice of items within the given community gp limits.

Leveling on the spot is fine. I don't think you could succeed otherwise.

If instant level ups weren't allowed it would just mean making a LOT of trips back and forth and would probably work to my advantage for downtime resources. So there are pros and cons for both sides.

you don't instantly gain prepared spell slots

I agree to slots not being usable until an appropriate rest has been made or an alternative resource is used to gain their use.

starting level needs to be chosen

I saw a few different starting level recommendations scattered throughout the thread, but I don't know how appropriate they are to the 3.5e module. The lowest suggested starting level was 1st, but I'm seeing mention of party level 3rd, which someone calculated out to be a level 7 soloist. Meanwhile, the OP has stated 6th. So I would say anything in that level range should be acceptable. Thoughts?

should we stick with full XP or some fraction of it? I think if you do start killing stuff, full XP may push you into high enough levels that no challenge remains. I suppose only time will tell. Getting started might be the hardest part.

Full XP is one of the perks of a solo run, so I would prefer it. It will likely make some challenges easier, but after a while certain other challenges may also stop granting me XP (or as much of it), so there should still be a balance point. The random encounters at twice (or more) of the party's ECL that everyone keeps mentioning are more than likely to be what upsets any semblance of an experience curve. But if that's the kind of variance the designers intended, they should have to feel the consequences of making that decision.

In my opinion, the difficultly of the start will rest solely on what low-level tricks are deemed inappropriate or unsporting for the purpose of this challenge.

In 3.5 i would be much more reasonable to see someone solo.

While I'm no Pathfinder player, I have it on good authority from those that are capable Pathfinder and 3.5 optimizers that a large number of the changes between the two systems made things easier for players, didn't fix a significant number of powerful options, and that for each powerful option they "fixed" they created another one of their own that can be exploited. For example, apparently there's a spell that can make you immune to Antimagic Field and Disjunction. Yet Initiate of Mystra is considered a glaring problem? Tsk tsk. If I had any level of system mastery with Pathfinder I would make the attempt, but alas I don't, nor do I have the time to learn it.

Firest Kathon

2019-12-19, 08:51 AM

For example, apparently there's a spell that can make you immune to Antimagic Field and Disjunction. Yet Initiate of Mystra is considered a glaring problem? Tsk tsk.

That seems to be the spell Spellbane (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/aroden-s-spellbane).

tiercel

2019-12-21, 04:17 AM

This is, of course, nonsense.... Within that variance, there isn't a printed challenge short of divine ranks that's out of reach for a level 20 stock wizard.

Except that Orcus is also a level 20 wizard, as well as having cleric 15 casting, and a stack of spell-like abilities, and a formidable pile of outsider HD and stats even if all his temples have been destroyed, and an artifact, and an entourage of demons and undead, after the PCs have had to run a gauntlet to get to him on his home turf.

If Orcus loses to a stock wizard 20 it's likely because the DM is not exercising anything like the the same creativity, thought, or system mastery that the player is -- if anything, Orcus should know *rather more* about the PCs from their progress through his dungeon than they are likely to know about him -- and the DM is essentially throwing the fight, either deliberately or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

Quertus

2019-12-21, 07:51 AM

or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, once lost a Wizard's duel to an opponent who used exclusively cantrips. A sufficiently non-omniscient, non-paranoid Wizard 20 absolutely should be able to lose to a particularly bad matchup - including to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, and a few bad die rolls.

Kaiwen

2019-12-21, 09:54 AM

Except that Orcus is also a level 20 wizard, as well as having cleric 15 casting, and a stack of spell-like abilities, and a formidable pile of outsider HD and stats even if all his temples have been destroyed, and an artifact, and an entourage of demons and undead, after the PCs have had to run a gauntlet to get to him on his home turf.

If Orcus loses to a stock wizard 20 it's likely because the DM is not exercising anything like the the same creativity, thought, or system mastery that the player is -- if anything, Orcus should know *rather more* about the PCs from their progress through his dungeon than they are likely to know about him -- and the DM is essentially throwing the fight, either deliberately or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

Optimal Wiz20 vs Optimal Orcus comes down to an endless series of divinations, so I think we can probably ignore that.

upho

2019-12-21, 03:47 PM

If you can do that with a Paizo-published class builder, sure. The race builder may be broken, but it is official 1st party content for the system specified in the title.Indeed. Though it's worth noting that the race builder is primarily intended as a DM tool, not as a an option to be used RAW by the players (my emphasis):

"The following rules allow GMs, or even players with GM oversight, to create new races..."

Whoever wants to run the challenge as the DM should lay out some ground rules on what is and isn't acceptable. I agree, however, that 3rd party rules should not be taken as the module maker can/should not be expected to balance around their abilities.This. But note that RA itself is 3PP material for PF, published by Frog God Games, and includes quite a few PC options as well.

And speaking of, while DSP's psionics, PoW and AM material is in general well balanced to T3, some of the most high-op builds can at least in higher levels probably be more successful than any Paizo-only build when it comes to soloing RA, mostly due to being far less sensitive to attrition and having the combat numbers needed to easily solo opponents of a much higher CR than their level.

Actually, looking at the final chapter and encounter, it appears quite a few high-op DSP builds would very likely utterly curb-stomp even the CR 35 Orcus and his entire entourage. This is primarily because such a build's key combat abilities are highly unlikely to be exhausted prior to the fight, its saves well beyond the reach of even Orcus' offensive DCs, its melee prowess far greater than that of the opposition, and its ridiculously powerful active defenses and vastly superior action economy making it extremely dangerous for even Orcus to attack.

So, is there a verdict on the evil, strip-mining (stealthy? Earth-gliding?) Trompe L'oeil?Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.

While I'm no Pathfinder player, I have it on good authority from those that are capable Pathfinder and 3.5 optimizers that a large number of the changes between the two systems made things easier for players, didn't fix a significant number of powerful options, and that for each powerful option they "fixed" they created another one of their own that can be exploited.Then those you've heard from aren't talking about char-op on a level comparable to the highest possible in 3.5, but rather about the op-floor or the much less powerful kind of high-op typically allowed in real 3.5 games.

There are no options in PF which allow for anything even remotely close to Pun-Pun, and a very large majority of the most powerful 3.5 spells and caster tricks were removed or nerfed in PF (including for example extreme spell DC boosts, binding single creature hd limit boosts (max +2 in PF), wish/miracle, candle of invocation, DMM persist (and nightsticks), polymorph, shapechange, wild shape etc). A few caster focuses can however be made more powerful in PF, perhaps most notably minionmancy, and the op-floor is as mentioned higher (for all classes) in PF.

emeraldstreak

2019-12-21, 06:59 PM

Zancloufer

2019-12-21, 10:47 PM

When I ran the module Orcus didn't even get to act before dying. The entire RA is a cakewalk for an optimzed party.

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

Xervous

2019-12-22, 09:27 AM

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

My guess is raw damage. Rocket tag vs AC is very effective against ill prepared enemies. If Orcus isn’t running some vaguely optimized prebuff he’ll get eaten up by anything that performs like an Ubercharger

Zancloufer

2019-12-22, 11:11 AM

My guess is raw damage. Rocket tag vs AC is very effective against ill prepared enemies. If Orcus isn’t running some vaguely optimized prebuff he’ll get eaten up by anything that performs like an Ubercharger

Except the actual map and recommended strategies shut down Uber-Chargering HARD. The mooks and map and positioned in a way that it SHOULD be impossible to reach Orcus before he acts and it's called out that he will have been observing the PCs and have pre-buffed/summoned things if needed.

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.

Hellpyre

2019-12-22, 03:11 PM

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.

There's a fair number of ways to do so at range with similar damage to ubercharging. Or you can go with something like shadowpouncing to skip straight to Orcus. It an optimized party hits a bog-standard, by-the-book Orcus, I could see it happening. A semi-optimized version with the homefield advantage should be able to survive for a bit, but then you get into something beyond RAW, even if it does make for a better experience.

Quertus

2019-12-22, 11:11 PM

Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.

You misunderstand - I can't speak for the others, but I was taking about, not a PC creating a Trompe L'oeil, but a PC being a Trompe L'oeil. Ideally, of something stealthy, with earth glide.

Since level = CR in Pathfinder (right?), and Trompe L'oeil adds +1 to CR, are there any CR 6(-) stealthy earth-gliding creatures for my creator to have used to make my evil strip-mining PC?

And, if so, how would it do in the module?

tiercel

2019-12-23, 12:47 AM

A sufficiently non-omniscient, non-paranoid Wizard 20 absolutely should be able to lose to a particularly bad matchup - including to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, and a few bad die rolls.

It is, of course, theoretically possible or at not-particularly-high optimization or paranoia levels, but presumably a campaign ending BBEG should be designed sufficiently well as to minimize the chance of a sudden fluke ending, especially given that the structure of the module means it should be essentially impossible to catch Orcus anything like off-guard.

Optimal Wiz20 vs Optimal Orcus comes down to an endless series of divinations, so I think we can probably ignore that.

It should be noted that at least the 3.5 version of RA has Orcus's layer just no-sell divinations, so while Knowledgamancy and general divinations about Orcus might reveal some information, advantage: Orcus.

emeraldstreak

2019-12-23, 02:17 AM

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

In fairness I didn't notice "no shrines down" in your previous post, the shrines were down. It was a Dazing Spell and Orcus never got out of the daze before dying to an ubercharge.

upho

2019-12-24, 09:11 PM

You misunderstand - I can't speak for the others, but I was taking about, not a PC creating a Trompe L'oeil, but a PC being a Trompe L'oeil. Ideally, of something stealthy, with earth glide.

Since level = CR in Pathfinder (right?),No, the old "Monsters as PCs" GM rules/guidelines for including PCs of anything other than PC races - which basically treated monster CR as LA with 0 RHD and some integrated buy-off - were superseded more than seven years ago by the "featured races" and GM Race Builder system in Advanced Race Guide. So per RAW, you can't play any creature with the trompe l'oeil template or anything else not made to be a PC race.

A GM may of course make a new PC race based on an existing creature from the bestiaries, allow one of the few published ones with more than 10 race points, or even allow players to create races using the Race Builder, but it's generally assumed that only the "core" and "featured" races plus other published 1PP races with the standard max 10 race points are allowed in a 1PP-only game. AFAIK a very large majority of real PF games limited to 1PP material also seem to have these race limitations or stricter ones.

Likewise you could of course assume a game including whichever weird custom race or house rule you like, but as previously mentioned in this thread doing so means your conclusions won't say much about the possibility for a PC to solo RA in a RAW game including no player options which require special GM permission (which I'm pretty certain is also precisely the kind game the writers of RA assumed).

Quertus

2019-12-25, 08:13 AM

No, the old "Monsters as PCs" GM rules/guidelines for including PCs of anything other than PC races - which basically treated monster CR as LA with 0 RHD and some integrated buy-off - were superseded more than seven years ago by the "featured races" and GM Race Builder system in Advanced Race Guide. So per RAW, you can't play any creature with the trompe l'oeil template or anything else not made to be a PC race.

A GM may of course make a new PC race based on an existing creature from the bestiaries, allow one of the few published ones with more than 10 race points, or even allow players to create races using the Race Builder, but it's generally assumed that only the "core" and "featured" races plus other published 1PP races with the standard max 10 race points are allowed in a 1PP-only game. AFAIK a very large majority of real PF games limited to 1PP material also seem to have these race limitations or stricter ones.

Likewise you could of course assume a game including whichever weird custom race or house rule you like, but as previously mentioned in this thread doing so means your conclusions won't say much about the possibility for a PC to solo RA in a RAW game including no player options which require special GM permission (which I'm pretty certain is also precisely the kind game the writers of RA assumed).

Ah. Like I said, I know almost nothing about Pathfinder. So, one of the few things I've heard about the system that I liked, the CR to ECL transparency, they threw away? That's obnoxious.

upho

2019-12-25, 10:27 AM

Except the actual map and recommended strategies shut down Uber-Chargering HARD. The mooks and map and positioned in a way that it SHOULD be impossible to reach Orcus before he acts and it's called out that he will have been observing the PCs and have pre-buffed/summoned things if needed.The problem is that even though no forms of magical flight (including via polymorph effects) or teleportation/extradimensional movement works for the PCs on this final level of the dungeon, it doesn't even have a ceiling and the room where the final fight takes places is huge. So it shouldn't be very difficult for say a high-op 3.5 ubercharger or PF supercharger with non-magic flight and some related mobility enhancement (free overruns on charge, turn while charging etc) to target Orcus and turn him as well as a few of his mooks standing in the way into paste.

Regardless, I think that potential vulnerability to charge stunts is merely a symptom of Orcus more dire problems, even if none of the shrines are down, especially when it comes to his action economy, the DCs of his offensive abilities and his defensive abilities against things other than maybe spells/SLAs/powers etc. For example, his melee reach is a rather pathetic 15', meaning virtually any melee control build worth his salt can and will out-reach him and an optimized PF one can even go all NBA pro on the poor demon through various trip (if he's not flying) and/or reposition combos, using him as a rapidly deflating ball slammed into the ground and his allies while simultaneously punching him to pulp, all without much fear of immediate retaliation and with Orcus likely not even capable of closing during his own turn should he miraculously survive. And speaking of fear, Orcus isn't immune to it (or mind-affecting in general), meaning even something as basic as a straight PF fighter 20 with a demoralizing performance combat combo can very reliably make the demon lord cower and unable to act for several rounds by simply being able to charge one of his allies within 30' of him in the opening round (no pounce needed).

Likewise, Orcus is going to have a hard time getting any of his SoL/S abilities to land (max DC 30, most of them lower), most notably any of his offensive wizard or cleric spells (max DC 28 and a large majority DC 25 or less).

If all the shrines are down, also a caster should have a pretty easy time to affect Orcus directly with spells as his otherwise very high SR 46 is significantly lower, at least provided they're able to avoid/ignore harassment from Orcus' allies.

In other words, it seems to me the designers grossly overestimated Orcus' capabilities in combat, hilariously assuming it to be impossible even for an entire party of six to defeat him without all three shrines destroyed and immensely difficult even if they are, giving him a way too high CR of 35 even though a reasonably rated CR 30 monster like PF's Cthulhu (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu/) is much more dangerous to PCs and would most likely have Orcus for breakfast without breaking a sweat. As written, I think CR 27 or so for the non-nerfed (all shrines intact) version seems more reasonable. :smallamused:

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.With the shrines down there are as mentioned plenty of ways to beat that encounter, and I honestly can't see how or why it would be particularly difficult for a party of six decently high-op PCs at 20th.

There's a fair number of ways to do so at range with similar damage to ubercharging. Or you can go with something like shadowpouncing to skip straight to Orcus.Shadowpouncing and similar shenanigans won't work, since:

"The entire level is shielded, and no means of magical transport such as teleport, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, and so forth functions at all, though this does not apply to demons! Magical flight and levitation likewise do not function in any form. The only exception is the druidic wild shape ability, as this ability is attuned to nature and thus functions normally."

It an optimized party hits a bog-standard, by-the-book Orcus, I could see it happening. A semi-optimized version with the homefield advantage should be able to survive for a bit, but then you get into something beyond RAW, even if it does make for a better experience.Orcus is fully detailed in at least the PF version of the adventure, including his prepared spells, all items and his general preferences regarding tactics when facing the PCs.

In fairness I didn't notice "no shrines down" in your previous post, the shrines were down. It was a Dazing Spell and Orcus never got out of the daze before dying to an ubercharge.That seems like one perfectly plausible way of many in which an optimized party might quickly deal with Orcus.

Hellpyre

2019-12-25, 11:25 AM

I'll just respond to the parts from my post

Shadowpouncing and similar shenanigans won't work, since:

"The entire level is shielded, and no means of magical transport such as teleport, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, and so forth functions at all, though this does not apply to demons! Magical flight and levitation likewise do not function in any form. The only exception is the druidic wild shape ability, as this ability is attuned to nature and thus functions normally."
Yes, but 3.5 at least has some notoriously poor editing, including a number of (Ex) ways to teleport. Whether they would be available in a Pathfinder would be up to a GM, but then the same is true for the shadowpouncing classes.

Orcus is fully detailed in at least the PF version of the adventure, including his prepared spells, all items and his general preferences regarding tactics when facing the PCs.

That was sort of my point - Orcus as listed isn't fantastic, but in an actual play scenario it would not be unreasonable to improve his spell selection, set a few extra spells as traps, manipulate the terrain based on PC tactics as scryed. That's why I said by-the-book versus semi-optimized.

I think RA, in either system, is balanced around 'optimized' characters, but the designers had a poorer understanding of the optimization ceiling than the Playground hivemind (unsurprising, considering that for every poster past 150, each additional 50 gives the Hivemind +1 Int and Cha).

Kaiwen

2019-12-25, 04:05 PM

Actually, looking at the final chapter and encounter, it appears quite a few high-op DSP builds would very likely utterly curb-stomp even the CR 35 Orcus and his entire entourage. This is primarily because such a build's key combat abilities are highly unlikely to be exhausted prior to the fight, its saves well beyond the reach of even Orcus' offensive DCs, its melee prowess far greater than that of the opposition, and its ridiculously powerful active defenses and vastly superior action economy making it extremely dangerous for even Orcus to attack. Out of curiosity, how would you do this? I assume it's something to do with Warlord and Charisma to saves or do you mean the skill check to save maneuvers?

Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.
I assume that with a high enough Know(Religion) check, you'd be able to know what Orcus looks like, and with enough Craft(Painting) and Spellcraft checks, you'd be able to paint up a few aspects of him identical to the one at the bottom of Rappan Athuk. Even if Orcus has somehow obscured himself from this, there's certainly other gods out there who are opposed to Orcus, and I'm sure they have temples with very expensive pictures of them.

Endarire

2019-12-25, 05:45 PM

Art breaks the game? LOL!

upho

2019-12-25, 10:23 PM

Ah. Like I said, I know almost nothing about Pathfinder.I feel I should mention one of the reasons I commented on this is because I quite frequently read posts making claims about PF based on hopelessly outdated info, and it has become a bit of a pet peeve to me as such false claims posing as currently valid facts makes it difficult for especially 3.5 players who read them to partake in a constructive discussion about related matters. And AFAIK you've never made such false claims, but have instead always been very up-front with your potential lack of knowledge and not afraid to ask when it comes to the particulars of PF.

So, one of the few things I've heard about the system that I liked, the CR to ECL transparency, they threw away? That's obnoxious.The "CR to ECL transparency" wasn't removed and is still a part of the encounter design guidelines. More importantly, the "Monsters as PCs" GM guidelines were exactly that: GM guidelines, meant to reduce the risk of balance issues caused by introducing alternative player options not allowed per the default RAW. So the option to play a monster instead of a PC race has actually never been RAW in PF, and it was explicitly a GM decision whether - and in which specific manner - to allow such options also before those guidelines were replaced. And the community consequently didn't assume the option to be allowed per default in related discussions (unlike all the 1PP PC races existing at the time).

I also very much suspect one of the main reasons why these guidelines were replaced was because they sorta implied the "CR to ECL transparency" to be consistent and reliable enough to remove the need for GMs to carefully consider and understand the specifics of each monster and its effects on balance on a case-by-case basis, which of course is far from the truth. (Ironically, the infamously poorly balanced Race Creation system replacing the old guidelines makes the same mistake, explicitly saying it allows for creating balanced new PC races.)

Yes, but 3.5 at least has some notoriously poor editing, including a number of (Ex) ways to teleport. Whether they would be available in a Pathfinder would be up to a GM, but then the same is true for the shadowpouncing classes.Ah, yes of course, I didn't consider that. PF doesn't have any explicitly (Ex) poofaports IIRC, and while I think there are a few (Su) ones which lack the appropriate [teleportation] tag (or equivalent) they'd need to function as they were most likely intended to, I believe the wording of the RA limitation I quoted means that lack won't be enough to save them from being shut down in this case.

Btw, at least AFAICT the PF version of RA wasn't written with the assumption that 3.5 material is available.

That was sort of my point - Orcus as listed isn't fantastic, but in an actual play scenario it would not be unreasonable to improve his spell selection, set a few extra spells as traps, manipulate the terrain based on PC tactics as scryed. That's why I said by-the-book versus semi-optimized.Oh, now I get it. And yeah, you could definitely ramp up the difficulty considerably by improving Orcus' spell selection to ones more appropriate against the specific PC(s). I think especially trading away his many mediocre offensive spells would rarely decrease his power, and he's probably often much better off with buffs to plug holes in his defenses (notably fear and poor melee reach), large scale BFC spells and some action economy enhancers (contingency, contingent action etc).

Likewise, the PF version's feat selection is pretty damn horrible, including a lot of garbage: Alertness A feat for +4 Perception and Sense Motive is awesome, right?, Awesome Blow He must have terribad monster feats he'll never use, 'cause he's a monster!, Blind-Fight Total no-brainer for anyone with darkvision, life sight and constant true seeing., Cleave So what if he'll never use it 'cause it's usually awful in PF?, Combat Casting There's at least a 1% chance or so this will make a difference., Critical Focus He's just perfect for crit-fishing!, Deceitful He reallyis, you know., Great Cleave 'Cause he likes the name!, Great Fortitude His Fort would only be +35 otherwise, obviously way too low., Iron Will And that goes for a Will of only +33 as well., Sickening Critical So he won't just kill on a hit, but also make the corpse sickened on a crit!, Staggering Critical Those darn corpses never stay still otherwise., Stunning Critical People who get stunned the same instant they die become funnier looking corpses, OK?

A GM who knows what they're doing could most likely make Orcus many times as likely to win by changing these feats.

I think RA, in either system, is balanced around 'optimized' characters, but the designers had a poorer understanding of the optimization ceiling than the Playground hivemindThat's painfully obvious. But still, did they really have to force-feed the poor creature with every weak and redundant feat they could find? Even when the explicit goal was to make him virtually invincible?

(unsurprising, considering that for every poster past 150, each additional 50 gives the Hivemind +1 Int and Cha).OMG! You're right! And since we're obviously also more dangerous than Orcus, it means we're a TOTALLY EPIC MONSTER HIVEMIND! :smallbiggrin:

upho

2019-12-31, 12:48 AM

Out of curiosity, how would you do this? I assume it's something to do with Warlord and Charisma to saves or do you mean the skill check to save maneuvers?Neither warlord (or pally) Cha to saves or maneuvers are needed to achieve 29+ to your saves. And as is usually the case, also in the final fight against Orcus you actually only need to worry about a high Fort and Will, not Ref, and only to (Su), (Sp) and spells, most notably vs fear (Will DC 41 aura) and death (Fort DC 40 on melee hit with Orcus' wand). Here are some example numbers from two initiator builds I've previously posted on GitP, both admittedly intended as defenders, but optimized mainly for melee control and active defense (not for high passive defense numbers specifically):

Nelly Nephilim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) Monk 1, Warlord 1, Wilder 1, Warder 1, Zealot 6, Awakened Blade 10:
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
Combat Reflexes, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, dirty trick CMB +75 (also as AoO), Improved Trip CMB +92

Eddie Pincerhand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240) (progressed to 20th) Monk 4, Warder 10, Barbarian 2, Formless Master 4
AC 50, touch 28, flat-footed 41 (15 armor, 10 natural, 7 shield, 4 Dex, 5 deflection, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +30 (8 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 5 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Will +29 (7 Wis, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 4 insight (crystal mask of mindarmor), 2 rage)
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
+5 to saves vs mind-affecting (Abomination Shift)
+4 to saves vs fear (rallying armor)
50% chance to avoid SA or crit damage and effects (Sensory Shift)
SR 20, ignores first 12 death effects (Scarab of Protection (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/scarab-of-protection/))
Combat Reflexes & uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, grab CMB +84 (maintain as AoO), Greater Trip CMB +93

Note that it's unlikely Orcus can activate his aura of fear before he's at the very least shaken if fighting either of the above example builds (meaning they both will likely make the save on a roll of 2+). Both these builds also have access to maneuvers to increase the above numbers considerably, such as Lord of the Pridelands (Golden Lion 9th) for up +10 morale to attack, damage, AC and saves for one round, and both may initiate that maneuver each round and still typically have a lot more actions left than Orcus has per default. IOW, I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two. (For a more detailed example opening round in a high CR encounter, check out Nelly above against the CR 30 demon lord Pazuzu and three CR 25 balor lords here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91).)

I assume that with a high enough Know(Religion) check, you'd be able to know what Orcus looks like, and with enough Craft(Painting) and Spellcraft checks, you'd be able to paint up a few aspects of him identical to the one at the bottom of Rappan Athuk. Even if Orcus has somehow obscured himself from this, there's certainly other gods out there who are opposed to Orcus, and I'm sure they have temples with very expensive pictures of them.Sure, but at that point the whole tromp l'oeille idea has become highly dependent on GM fiat rather than hard RAW, and therefore it has most likely also been reduced to not much more than a weapon to use on the final levels rather than a strategy to solo the entire adventure. And at least AFAICT from skimming through the adventure, those final levels are probably going to be the easiest for an optimized PC (or party) regardless of any aid from a construct copy of Orcus.

tiercel

2019-12-31, 11:21 AM

A GM who knows what they're doing could most likely make Orcus many times as likely to win by changing these feats.

I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two.

I can’t help but think that in the kind of game where PCs have carefully-constructed six-class defensively-optimized juggernauts, Orcus is allowed to change feat “useless flavor text” into, e.g., Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment(Dream Domain)) or a PF equivalent.

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.

OMG! You're right! And since we're obviously also more dangerous than Orcus, it means we're a TOTALLY EPIC MONSTER HIVEMIND! :smallbiggrin:

Uh-oh, that means that we GitP-ers are the REAL end boss to end all end bosses, which means collectively we should be watching out for a ragtag band of misfits coming to overthrow us and take our stuff, ala The Gamers! (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369445/)

“My Intelligence is FOUR?!? OUTRAGEOUS!”

exelsisxax

2019-12-31, 08:47 PM

It is also worth mentioning that neither of those builds would survive RA to get that high in level. The random "perception DC: (stupid high) or one party member dies" will absolutely eliminate them.

upho

2020-01-01, 04:41 PM

I can’t help but think that in the kind of game where PCs have carefully-constructed six-class defensively-optimized juggernauts,Thank you! Now if you will excuse me for a few moments...

*Slowly mouths the words "defensively-optimized juggernauts" a few times, and then leans back with a disgustingly smug and self-satisfactory grin...*

OK, done!

More seriously though, while the two "juggernauts" may seem to have very high passive defenses at first glance, one of the reasons I used them as examples is precisely because those numbers actually aren't particularly exceptional, and certainly well within the reach of also far less complex Paizo-only martial builds.* I think it's also worth noting a very large majority of both those builds' resources are spent on their highly offensive melee control/debuff combos (and defensive applications of those combos), while their passive defenses haven't been given much more than the basics for defender/tank builds. (Although especially Nelly's numbers also happen to benefit from various fortunate side-effects of her offensive combos.)

*For example, a bloodrager based build could pretty easily achieve a base Fort of +38 and Will of +30 while raging, with +7 to saves vs (Su), (Sp) and spells and an additional +4 to Will saves vs fear and enchantment. And those saves are - despite including only staple items and no temporary buffs other than rage - enough for virtual immunity to any of Orcus' offensive abilities with a save, quite possibly from the moment initiative is rolled until combat ends with no action expenditure. And that's on top of a bloodrager having easy access to more than enough DR/- and various other passive/automatic defenses to compensate for a lower AC, not to mention more than enough charge boosts to likely one-shot poor Orcus as written into fine red mist before he even gets to act.

Orcus is allowed to change feat “useless flavor text” into, e.g., Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment(Dream Domain)) or a PF equivalent.Indeed. And in addition to immunity to fear and some better defensive spells, it sure would be nice to put the PF version's great melee base numbers and his dangerous weapon to better use. Perhaps in the form of the suitably terrifying Cornugon Smash and Soulless Gaze demoralization combo, along with some charge and bull rush shenanigans based on the very fittingly named Demonic Slaughter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/demonic-slaughter-combat/) (in which case he gets to keep his Cleave and Great Cleave feats and could actually get good use out of them).

And really, I think it's only fair Orcus gets a little make-over for no other reason than the fact that he was likely written more than 8 years ago and it really shows, many of his feats and spells being hopelessly outdated, especially in comparison to the slick new s**t the optimized PCs facing him can be expected to be jacked up on.

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.Word.

Uh-oh, that means that we GitP-ers are the REAL end boss to end all end bosses, which means collectively we should be watching out for a ragtag band of misfits coming to overthrow us and take our stuff, ala The Gamers! (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369445/)Crap. I knew there was a price to pay for our collective delusions of grandeur. And yet I walked right into it. :smallsigh:

Must be them I heard talking outside my window just now. Something about how Orcus was a cake-walk and finally finding the true BBEGs...

“My Intelligence is FOUR?!? OUTRAGEOUS!”:smallbiggrin:

"F**king gamers..."

It is also worth mentioning that neither of those builds would survive RA to get that high in level. The random "perception DC: (stupid high) or one party member dies" will absolutely eliminate them.This. Even the most high-op 7th level version of Nelly theoretically possible would still have very little chance of surviving to 10th level, much less long enough to fight Orcus.

Again, the highest levels (both dungeon- and character-wise) are the easiest. Being optimized doesn't help nearly as much at 7th when entering the dungeon as it does at 20th, 'cause there's simply not nearly as much to optimize. And I also suspect reliably surviving the first dungeon levels remain close to impossible for a single PC of appropriate level regardless of optimization, as simply taking the wrong turn can sometimes result in certain death. A Master Summoner might possibly stand some slim chance, I guess, as it's basically an entire party of exchangeable and expendable specialists all by itself and can have its most vital stuff online by 7th.

Quertus

2020-01-01, 07:24 PM

Wouldn't you optimize surviving the module… by leveling from random encounters, outside the module? Could not, then, many builds survive the module that way?

Endarire

2020-01-02, 02:44 AM

Remember, by RAW, hirelings don't cost you EXP and don't gain EXP/levels! Use them to help you "solo" the game!

Quertus

2020-01-02, 01:28 PM

Orcus being ancient is why his terrible feats make sense: he picked them before better modem advances existed.

legomaster00156

2020-01-02, 02:07 PM

Remember, by RAW, hirelings don't cost you EXP and don't gain EXP/levels! Use them to help you "solo" the game!
At which point you are essentially hiring party members, and the GM will (or should) charge appropriately.

icefractal

2020-01-02, 05:40 PM

Was "Monsters as PCs" ever actually removed? I still see it in the SRD, and while the ARG rules cover similar ground, I don't recall seeing anything official about replacing them.

Powerdork

2020-01-03, 05:51 AM

Excellent question! I opened up the Advanced Race Guide to check, and it's inconclusive.

Here's the argument that it replaces.

This chapter features numerous examples of races
designed with the race builder. Sidebars early in the
chapter offer detailed examples of races found in the
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Bestiary 2, and Bestiary 3 that would
normally have racial Hit Dice, skills, and other abilities. PC
members of such races, however, calculate these benefits
based solely on their class. Note that these races are only
an approximation of their monstrous counterparts and
may not match exactly. Later in the chapter, sidebars detail
entirely new races created using the race builder rules.
Lastly, the final section of the chapter breaks down the
points and abilities of core races and many of the featured
and uncommon races.

Here's the argument that it's optional.

Lastly, a few examples of new and monstrous races
are presented throughout [Chapter 4: Race Builder], allowing you to
insert even more racial diversity into your Pathfinder
game without having to build a new race from whole
cloth. Incorporate them as presented, or pick them apart
and rebuild them yourself. You have the tools now—the
possibilities are endless.

Kraynic

2020-01-04, 01:41 PM

Orcus being ancient is why his terrible feats make sense: he picked them before better modem advances existed.

If I am looking at the right publication dates, it looks like the Rappan Athuk for Pathfinder release was meant to hit for Christmas 2011 but missed by a couple weeks. The material they had to work with looks like it was primarily Core, APG, and Bestiary 1 & 2. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released 5-7 months before Rappan Athuk, so probably weren't used at all.

If people want to be fair to the module, they would only use the content for characters that was available when the module was written. Or edit the module to include all the shiny stuff players (and monsters) have received since then.

So, yes, that version of him is ancient as far as published material goes.

Quertus

2020-01-04, 09:09 PM

If I am looking at the right publication dates, it looks like the Rappan Athuk for Pathfinder release was meant to hit for Christmas 2011 but missed by a couple weeks. The material they had to work with looks like it was primarily Core, APG, and Bestiary 1 & 2. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released 5-7 months before Rappan Athuk, so probably weren't used at all.

If people want to be fair to the module, they would only use the content for characters that was available when the module was written. Or edit the module to include all the shiny stuff players (and monsters) have received since then.

So, yes, that version of him is ancient as far as published material goes.

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.

However, if Orcus is known as a bleeding-edge and tactically-adept adapter to new advances, then, yes, he should be updated (and should have already been updated by whoever owns his rights, if they want him to maintain that reputation).

legomaster00156

2020-01-04, 09:19 PM

One survives as a demon lord only by being able to adapt to new threats.

Kraynic

2020-01-04, 10:54 PM

However, if Orcus is known as a bleeding-edge and tactically-adept adapter to new advances, then, yes, he should be updated (and should have already been updated by whoever owns his rights, if they want him to maintain that reputation).

Ah, so we just blame the publisher if they don't update/upgrade their modules every time a new splat book is published. Got it.

tiercel

2020-01-04, 11:24 PM

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.

Umm... just because books came out after RA doesn’t mean the tech only sprang into existence in the last few years in campaign time — I don’t think anyone is suggesting that necessarily, e.g., Ordained Champions were only invented recently because Complete Champion is one of the last 3.5 books. Also (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24332867&postcount=84):

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.

Quertus

2020-01-05, 10:33 AM

Kaouse

2020-01-05, 09:19 PM

Neither warlord (or pally) Cha to saves or maneuvers are needed to achieve 29+ to your saves. And as is usually the case, also in the final fight against Orcus you actually only need to worry about a high Fort and Will, not Ref, and only to (Su), (Sp) and spells, most notably vs fear (Will DC 41 aura) and death (Fort DC 40 on melee hit with Orcus' wand). Here are some example numbers from two initiator builds I've previously posted on GitP, both admittedly intended as defenders, but optimized mainly for melee control and active defense (not for high passive defense numbers specifically):

Nelly Nephilim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) Monk 1, Warlord 1, Wilder 1, Warder 1, Zealot 6, Awakened Blade 10:
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
Combat Reflexes, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, dirty trick CMB +75 (also as AoO), Improved Trip CMB +92

Eddie Pincerhand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240) (progressed to 20th) Monk 4, Warder 10, Barbarian 2, Formless Master 4
AC 50, touch 28, flat-footed 41 (15 armor, 10 natural, 7 shield, 4 Dex, 5 deflection, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +30 (8 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 5 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Will +29 (7 Wis, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 4 insight (crystal mask of mindarmor), 2 rage)
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
+5 to saves vs mind-affecting (Abomination Shift)
+4 to saves vs fear (rallying armor)
50% chance to avoid SA or crit damage and effects (Sensory Shift)
SR 20, ignores first 12 death effects (Scarab of Protection (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/scarab-of-protection/))
Combat Reflexes & uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, grab CMB +84 (maintain as AoO), Greater Trip CMB +93

Note that it's unlikely Orcus can activate his aura of fear before he's at the very least shaken if fighting either of the above example builds (meaning they both will likely make the save on a roll of 2+). Both these builds also have access to maneuvers to increase the above numbers considerably, such as Lord of the Pridelands (Golden Lion 9th) for up +10 morale to attack, damage, AC and saves for one round, and both may initiate that maneuver each round and still typically have a lot more actions left than Orcus has per default. IOW, I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two. (For a more detailed example opening round in a high CR encounter, check out Nelly above against the CR 30 demon lord Pazuzu and three CR 25 balor lords here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91).)

Sure, but at that point the whole tromp l'oeille idea has become highly dependent on GM fiat rather than hard RAW, and therefore it has most likely also been reduced to not much more than a weapon to use on the final levels rather than a strategy to solo the entire adventure. And at least AFAICT from skimming through the adventure, those final levels are probably going to be the easiest for an optimized PC (or party) regardless of any aid from a construct copy of Orcus.

This is cool. I also made a build optimized for defense and control a while back. It's a straight level 20 Mageknight with the Martial Mageknight and Doomblade archetypes:

Quin T. Ence (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1927327)
His AC is 43, but thanks to Active Defense and Combat reflexes, it's mostly an even 50. Thanks to Quickened Reflexes, he can spike that up further to an AC of 60, though Quickened Reflexes costs spell points to use. Thanks to Unarmored Training and Deflecting Shield, all of his AC also applies against Touch. He also has Uncanny Dodge, to prevent himself from being flat-footed.

His saves are all +33, and he has both Stalwart and Evasion, as well as a few Protection Sphere Aegis abilities to mitigate some of the more well known "no save, just suck" abilities in the game (emotion effects, alignment effects, & death effects, all of which increase his morale bonus on saves against those things by a further +3 to 36 and forcibly always grant him a save). The Safety rally even lets him reroll a failed save once per round.

Where he really shines is physical damage mitigation though. Thanks to the unbreakable Mystic Combat, he can temporarily gain DR 20/-, on top of resilient momentum that allows him to reduce the damage of an attack by 7 (casting mod) without an action, temp hp that can be refreshed each round as a free action, and a delayed damage pool that turns into nonlethal damage when emptied. Against massive spike damage, he can even use Disperse Force to negate a single threat per round.

Offensively, he relies on abusing Ghostly Admixture to inflict negative levels with each of his attacks. With Thanatopic Spell, even undead and people warded by Death Ward aren't safe. He also has Time Thief's Admixture, forcing opponents to make saves with each attack, or become dazed via Steal Time, which also gives him another standard action attack. Thanks to Greater Admixture, he can combine the two. And thanks to Maximize Spell and all of his attacks being touch attacks, he can generally output a decently high DPR.

Against Orcus, it's not exactly a guaranteed victory. Generally, it takes 2-3 full attacks for Quin to take down Orcus. The trick is going first, then debuffing the heck out of him with negative levels to make surviving the retaliation a lot easier. Thanks to his +22 Initiative though (compared to Orcus's +10), this shouldn't be too difficult.

The weakness of this build is the ludicrous amount of spell points it costs to do...pretty much anything. Quickened (+4) Maximized (+3) Thanatopic (+1) Greater Admixture (+2) Ghostly Admixture (+1) Drain (+1) Taint Soul (+1) Time-Thief's Admixture (+1) Steal Time (+1) Stone Blade = 15 spell points. Stays a swift action though. Which is important if I want to full attack with it.

Then there's the cost of using all of my Mystic Combats, which can be set to free actions thanks to Time Shift (which will notably be nerfed in the upcoming Ultimate Spheres of Power errata). Thanks to the capstone, Time Shift itself doesn't cost any spell points, but everything else I use it with certainly does. Unbreakable, Quickened Reflexes, Mystic Adaptation and Swift Combatant are all things I'd likely be using from round 1, and in the case of Swift Combatant, something that might be necessary to spam (free action movement is amazing, even if it still provokes).

Still, I think it's a pretty strong and defensible build. Doesn't have the reality warping powers of a caster, nor the longevity of an initiator, but I still think it's one of my best late game martial builds.

Eventually, I'll make a level 20 Aegis, just to see how crazy it can get with the 3pp^2 (I.e. non-DSP, and non-DDS) support.

Sleven

2020-01-05, 09:31 PM

I'm surprised this is still going.

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

Kraynic

2020-01-05, 10:20 PM

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

Hmm, I wasn't aware that was the lore of that dungeon. I thought it started with a cult and eventually (perhaps relatively recently) an avatar of orcus has moved in. I'm not sure it is even specified that it spends all its time there. Orcus definitely doesn't live there. He lives in the Abyss.

Kraynic

2020-01-05, 10:27 PM

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

That isn't just tiercel's stance. It is the stance of the authors, though I am too lazy to go track down the text at the moment. If you have destroyed the shrines, you have a chance though it is supposed to be very difficult. If you haven't destroyed any of them, the best you are supposed to be able to do is flee through the portal that is the only exit to the area. And somewhere in between those 2 if you have only destroyed 1 or 2 of the shrines. They have suggested baseline tactics with instructions for the DM to alter those as they see fit to adapt to what the party has been able to do battling their way through Rappan Athuk. This encounter is supposed to adapt to the party on a scale of difficult to impossible depending on the shrines.

tiercel

2020-01-06, 05:08 AM

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

It is arguable that it is a questionable stance to assume that Orcus does *literally nothing, ever* other than maybe start buffing himself when he knows PCs are coming to try to kill him. I mean, he’s got a portal right there and a whole raft of spells he can cast to get around, presumably.

But assuming that we are going for a 100%-literal Orcus on His Throne scenario:

<battle-scarred demon survivor of remnant of Orcus’s second temple>: *cowering before Orcus* Dread Master! It was like nothing we’ve ever seen! Their mage, his spells evaded our defenses!

<Orcus>: Would-be-clever mortals! *chuckling evilly, casts embrace the dark chaos and then shun the dark chaos* Now their little tricks... are mine. Their every seeming victory only ensures their painful and inevitable demise! *crunches skull of battle-scarred demon survivor*

<various undead and demons>: *hiss, cackle, and cavort at the prospect of another coming gruesome victory for Orcus*

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains, because PCs are built using the accumulated op-fu chicanery of decades of message board discussions and the BBEG isn’t, despite the fact that in-world the BBEG should in principle have access to any build option that PCs do.

If anything, the BBEG should have access to *more* options, given that he is allegedly a zillion years old, still alive—or clawed back into/from undeath, depending on your Orcus timeline—and has the resources of an entire megadungeon and Prime Material cult and however many layers of the Abyss and the accumulated wealth and minions thereof, and, oh yeah, zero moral compunctions about pursuing power.

This is not Orcus’s first rodeo. If a party of four 20th level characters can mow him down, on his home ground, with demonic and undead cohorts and rabble about him, much less in one round, then this Orcus should have been permadead a zillion years ago due to all the Abyssal nasties he’s presumably mixed it up with.

Now if the philosophical problem here is “it’s stupid to have an end-of-the-dungeon-boss that the PCs are supposed to lose to”—which is the module’s explicitly stated aim—then the encounter can be reskinned as with an Aspect of Orcus rather than with Orcus himself. Even then the aspect should be re-optimized to give a given set of PCs a rough challenge to merit, e.g. not only calling the end fight EL 25 vs a 20th level party but actually making it that difficult.

If the PCs’ op-fu is so strong compared to the boss battle that they have a 90%+ chance of one-rounding Orcus, then Orcus is literally not even a CR 20 threat to that party, much less one who deserves his backstory, to say nothing of his mental stats.

upho

2020-01-06, 10:00 PM

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?Presumably, the game includes the retraining rules, which of course anyone with Orcus' enormous wealth and power would be able to make great use of. And in terms of verisimilitude, I'd personally find it hard to believe that anything can survive as a demon lord for millennia without being pretty darn bleeding edge.

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.He's not hiding out, and AFAICT the adventure also never claims he has been. His apparently most important cult on the particular planet on the Material Plane where the GM places Rappan Athuk is/has been (mostly) hiding out. Which of course is a very different matter, even though the temples built by this cult obviously are an unusually important source of power for Orcus' visiting avatar "The Master". But for all we know, Orcus himself were presumably alive and kicking also during the centuries when his main cult on this planet on the Material Plane were in hiding, including the years before they built the portal to the pocket plane - and possibly the plane itself - where "The Master" can be found by the PCs in this adventure. (If RA is taking place on Golarion, the parts of the official material on the setting's "Major Demon Lord" Orcus relevant in this context (summaries here (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Orcus) and here (https://www.aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Orcus)) fits with the related info in RA pretty well.)

It is arguable that it is a questionable stance to assume that Orcus does *literally nothing, ever* other than maybe start buffing himself when he knows PCs are coming to try to kill him. I mean, he’s got a portal right there and a whole raft of spells he can cast to get around, presumably.This.

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.I think there are numerous things the PCs face in RA as written which the authors don't describe as having been intentionally designed to be virtually unbeatable for PCs of the recommended level (like they do in the case of Orcus), but which I'm pretty certain most of us would nevertheless consider far less "fair" than a better matching less easily beaten Orcus with an updated and more optimized selection spells and feats.

But regardless of all the above, I also think you've got a point in the sense that if a lone PC survives the rest of the adventure as written, one could say at least the player has earned the right to have their PC face also Orcus as written and ROFL-stomp him into paste. It wouldn't be the kind of ending the author intended, of course, but then one has to wonder why he made several of the earlier encounters so much more deadly when faced at the recommended level. I suspect that a major reason for this, besides the author's relative lack of op-fu, is that it appears the final level and fight hadn't been nearly as properly tested, if at all, as (I assume) especially the first half of the dungeon:
This level is the final page of adventure within the halls of Rappan Athuk.In 25 years of GMing and playtesting, it has never been reached, let aloneconquered. This level should be treated as the epic finale of many years ofplay. It is neither forgiving nor fair. Here in this small pocket plane, connectedto both the Material Plane and the Abyss itself, the party encounters theavatar of a demon prince with its full powers and many servants. This levelis incredibly dangerous, and no one may survive travel here even withoutencountering Orcus himself. Remember, this is not a computer roleplayinggame. There are no cheat codes to kill Orcus. The PCs are not supposedto win. If they have survived this far, they are powerful and foolhardy. YetOrcus’ avatar should prove more than a match for them. This is the end.Good luck!

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains, because PCs are built using the accumulated op-fu chicanery of decades of message board discussions and the BBEG isn’t, despite the fact that in-world the BBEG should in principle have access to any build option that PCs do.In the context of the question posed in the OP of this thread, I think it's more relevant to ask whether RA's internal consistency with regards to difficulty should be kept as written or changed to better match with the very explicit intentions when it comes to the final fight against Orcus. IOW, should a relatively easy encounter in what is otherwise one the most difficult adventures so far published for PF be kept as written even when it's explicitly intended to be the "epic finale" and the only one the "PCs are not supposed to win"?

Unless the OP says otherwise, we can't assume their question refers to anything other than RA as written, and to me that means also Orcus' actual stat block should be kept as written rather than the far more abstract intentions and erroneous beliefs stated by the author. And this is completely regardless of our own opinions on the matter in terms of design, fun, fairness, verisimilitude or anything else.

But assuming that we are going for a 100%-literal Orcus on His Throne scenario:It's pretty clear this isn't the case in RA. The PCs don't fight Orcus in his own realm in the Abyss, but his avatar on a pocket plane between the Material Plane and the Abyss, and if they destroy the avatar they're banishing Orcus from the Material Plane for 666 years (and he can be properly killed within a year if faced in his own realm in the Abyss according to 1PP material).

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.Well, at least if we're talking about mechanical abilities, that is actually what the CR system says - or at the very least heavily implies - should be the case, since it's basically what CR is supposed to be a measure of. The fact that this often isn't the case in practice, as we all know, may be another matter, but one that at least IMO also means it's a waste of time to discuss how well Orcus' CR matches the challenge he presents to a particular party or his abilities in comparison to those of particular PCs. We can however say with certainty that in comparison to at least some CR 30 1PP opponents, Orcus is rated way too high.

If the PCs’ op-fu is so strong compared to the boss battle that they have a 90%+ chance of one-rounding Orcus, then Orcus is literally not even a CR 20 threat to that party, much less one who deserves his backstory, to say nothing of his mental stats.Of course, but in that sense it's not like Orcus' rating being off against such a party makes it stand out, as that would very likely be true also for the CR of every other published opponent. Not to mention that if we start using CR as some kind of measure of intended challenge, we'd have to change a large majority of the monsters in the adventure to better suit with their CR against each particular party or PC we're discussing.

But again, yes, Orcus' CR relative his mechanical power is definitely way too high also when compared to the CR in relation to power of virtually all high-CR 1PP opponents AFAIK.

Sleven

2020-01-08, 12:41 AM

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains [...] If anything, the BBEG should have access to *more* options

While I'm all for optimized monsters and challenging BBEGs with access to the same tools the players have (I never said I wasn't, so this seems a needless strawman)...

You say this as if player characters aren't supposed to be exceptional as well. That's why they get something better than the elite array, why they get actual class levels from the beginning to end of their career instead of crappy HD, why they tend to achieve their goals where others have failed, etc. A PC's character isn't just your average level 6 wizard, it's THE wizard of the campaign or module you're playing in. You're free to play differently, but the expectation remains. Just if you are going to play that way, do it with some class and not some nonsense fiat "rocks fall because muh CR" victory. Otherwise you're robbing yourself of a learning experience and players who have more to offer than just riding a railroad.

This level is the final page of adventure within the halls of Rappan Athuk.In 25 years of GMing and playtesting, it has never been reached, let aloneconquered. This level should be treated as the epic finale of many years ofplay. It is neither forgiving nor fair. Here in this small pocket plane, connectedto both the Material Plane and the Abyss itself, the party encounters theavatar of a demon prince with its full powers and many servants. This levelis incredibly dangerous, and no one may survive travel here even withoutencountering Orcus himself. Remember, this is not a computer roleplayinggame. There are no cheat codes to kill Orcus. The PCs are not supposedto win. If they have survived this far, they are powerful and foolhardy. YetOrcus’ avatar should prove more than a match for them. This is the end.Good luck!

This is so asinine. The module creators (just like any DM) are susceptible to getting outplayed. That's life. The fact that they even feel the need to make this appeal shows their impotency, incredulity, and a lot of other "i" words I can think of. They could have done it honestly by giving Orcus divine ranks or epic spellcasting while strategically keeping enough XP out of the players' hands to prevent their own epic spellcasting. But no, they make a laughable attempt to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table. No dice, no fun, no tactics--just "I said so at the end of it all". The fact of the matter remains: they chose to keep his power at a certain level, and past level 17-18 there really is very little difference between one caster and another. And at those levels, combat typically hinges on a single round. You want to boo hoo about it? That's the d20 system, love it or hate it.

upho

2020-01-08, 09:12 PM

You say this as if player characters aren't supposed to be exceptional as well. That's why they get something better than the elite array, why they get actual class levels from the beginning to end of their career instead of crappy HD, why they tend to achieve their goals where others have failed, etc. A PC's character isn't just your average level 6 wizard, it's THE wizard of the campaign or module you're playing in. You're free to play differently, but the expectation remains. Just if you are going to play that way, do it with some class and not some nonsense fiat "rocks fall because muh CR" victory.
/snip/
This is so asinine. The module creators (just like any DM) are susceptible to getting outplayed. That's life. The fact that they even feel the need to make this appeal shows their impotency, incredulity, and a lot of other "i" words I can think of.It seems to me you're misinterpreting both what tiercel and the author says and especially their reasons for saying so. When reading also the other comments and advice given by the author, my impression of his stance can be summarized as "This is a damn difficult and often mercilessly unfair adventure which frequently tries to outplay the players and their PCs, so those who actually survive and manage to beat Orcus have truly earned their bragging rights". And since no sane GM with a modicum of experience runs this adventure without first making certain the players actually want to play this kind of game (or to play powerful PCs properly challenged), RA is difficult - as advertised - out of respect for the players.

So when tiercel talks about how Orcus' abilities should be changed to better match with the CR and challenge he's supposed to present, I can only interpret also that as ultimately being about not failing the players by having them discover the so-called "major demon lord" über-BBEG is some weak fool who doesn't even know how to pick his spells and feats, and the entire gigantic adventure ending in some lame anticlimactic cakewalk of a fight. And of course, an end like that hardly proves the players or their PCs to be particularly exceptional.

Note also that the final fight against Orcus is not supposed to be unbeatable if the temples have been destroyed, just very difficult, as appropriate.

They could have done it honestly by giving Orcus divine ranks or epic spellcasting while strategically keeping enough XP out of the players' hands to prevent their own epic spellcasting. But no, they make a laughable attempt to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table. No dice, no fun, no tactics--just "I said so at the end of it all".Whoa, no, it appears you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here based on a few sentences which the author clearly didn't mean quite as literally.

First, the PF equivalent to epic spells - Mythic spells - and the entire subsystem they're a part of didn't exist when RA was published. If the Mythic rules had existed, I'm fairly certain Orcus would've had the max 10 mythic ranks along with custom Mythic abilities (like Cthulhu (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cthulhu) and the demon lords (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ItemName=Demon%20Lord) given stats by Paizo).

Second, as mentioned the author does not say the PCs shouldn't stand a chance even if the temples are destroyed, but that it should be a small one. He keeps emphasizing this extreme difficulty also in various parts of the encounter description and the related GM advice, making it clear that this final fight is intended to be an even greater challenge than anything the PCs have managed to survive earlier in the adventure (which is saying something).

The fact of the matter remains: they chose to keep his power at a certain level,Yes, because the PCs actually should have a chance if the temples are destroyed. I suppose we - especially us outliers in the hobby discussing this here on GitP - might argue that the author would've been wiser to simply state that Orcus is flat-out invincible unless the temples are destroyed instead of giving that version stats, as we know that will inevitably result in players/PCs proving the stats aren't working as intended sooner or later. But also because the author's intents and expectations are so very explicitly stated in this case, I find it very hard to believe the inclusion of those stats has had any noticeable impact on any real play-through of RA, nor that it was intended "to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table".

and past level 17-18 there really is very little difference between one caster and another.True, but keep in mind that at least the (supposedly invincible) "no temples destroyed"-version of Orcus as written is likely more easily beaten by a high-op martial than a caster (especially SR 46 and other very high defense values weakens otherwise effective caster tactics significantly). And while I'm certain this rare martial advantage wasn't intended, I nevertheless appreciate the change of pace.

And at those levels, combat typically hinges on a single round. You want to boo hoo about it? That's the d20 system, love it or hate it.Indeed.

Sleven

2020-01-08, 11:22 PM

It seems to me you're misinterpreting both what tiercel and the author says [...] Whoa, no, it appears you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here based on a few sentences which the author clearly didn't mean quite as literally.

It's possible, but at least in the author's circumstance, I find a high degree of implication that he's insisting/making an appeal to the DM that the characters shouldn't win this one. It sure sounds a lot to me like, "this is the end, don't let the players outplay you, Orcus is better because I said so just now." I might be inclined to see his words more along the lines of your interpretation if there was any indication or leeway in them hinting that they could win.

Of course, this is where communication comes into play. In a rules-heavy system, I tend to take an author's words far more literally than I would in other contexts because it's a far more efficient way to parse them.

RA is difficult - as advertised - out of respect for the players.

Which as I said before, I'm entirely in support of. What I'm not in support of is assuming you have all the angles figured to the point that a certain outcome is inevitable, and then trying to force your way to that outcome when you're wrong. The CR assumption is just one of many indicators of someone who endorses this kind of game/table, as experience has taught me. So it's entirely possible I'm being unfair.

the author does not say the PCs shouldn't stand a chance even if the temples are destroyed, but that it should be a small one. He keeps emphasizing this extreme difficulty also in various parts of the encounter description and the related GM advice, making it clear that this final fight is intended to be an even greater challenge than anything the PCs have managed to survive earlier in the adventure (which is saying something).

I haven't read the module out of respect for the DM and the challenge, so if you have some more of the author's notes you'd like to share that do show an indication that the player can win I'd be more than happy to admit I was wrong. Once again, I'm basing this off of the quote you did share.

upho

2020-01-10, 08:10 AM

It's possible, but at least in the author's circumstance, I find a high degree of implication that he's insisting/making an appeal to the DM that the characters shouldn't win this one. It sure sounds a lot to me like, "this is the end, don't let the players outplay you, Orcus is better because I said so just now."Nah, it's obvious the author believed the stats he gave Team Orcus would be enough to make the encounter somewhere between "absolutely unbeatable" and "extremely difficult" depending on the number of temples destroyed, when run according to his instructions and the PF RAW without any GM fiat (at least against any group of six players and PCs he imagined playing RA in a real game).

I might be inclined to see his words more along the lines of your interpretation if there was any indication or leeway in them hinting that they could win.How 'bout (my emphasis):

Consequences: Now the fight begins! If the PCs lose, their souls are devoured and they are forever dead. If, on the other hand, they win, Orcus is banished from the Material Plane for 666 years. The GM should take care with this, as all priests of Orcus lose their ability to cast spells of 7th to 9th level for 666 years!
Special Note to the GM: If the PCs are to have any chance, they must have destroyed the evil temples on Levels 4, 9, and 14. If they have not,the avatar has his full powers and is absolutely unbeatable. For each shrine destroyed, the demon prince is weakened, and his ability to hold mortal form and fight the PCs is diminished. As you will note, only if all three shrines were destroyed is there really any hope of the PCs ridding the planet of this evil god.
Treasure: [there's a whole lot of it]
Experience: It is left to the individual GM to award experience for this encounter as there are too many variables. Needless to say, encountering Orcus, even if the PCs flee through the teleportation circle, should be worth enough experience to gain a level.
As a sidenote, again I find Orcus' CR 35, not to mention the certainty expressed by the author whenever referring to the power of Orcus as written, not just sadly comical and embarrassing, but also a bit confusing. Because while most of the other combat encounters in the adventure I've looked at are pretty straight-forward, they're decently well designed, and their CR and any comments he makes on their difficulty reasonable. And some of the opponents employ surprisingly unconventional yet smart tactics and/or weird and truly nasty shenanigans full of flavor, and the effectiveness is reflected in the encounter CR. In my mind this, along with his very reasonable advice regarding for example the more powerful "robbers" a party may face outside the dungeon and the above quote regarding xp for surviving Team Orcus, indicates he normally has a pretty good grip on CR and the actual power of various different combos of mechanics and tactics.

Of course, this is where communication comes into play. In a rules-heavy system, I tend to take an author's words far more literally than I would in other contexts because it's a far more efficient way to parse them.FWIW, I tend to do the same. But in this case I don't find it problematic that the author sometimes mixes up his advice and instructions (but never actual rules elements like stat blocks) with descriptive comments not as strictly necessary to run this kind of extremely mechanics-driven dungeon crawl. I think most readers quickly learn to recognize which comments not to be taken literally by their slightly hyperbolic and/or ironic tone, and like me also find they actually often help get the general idea behind parts of the adventure across.

Which as I said before, I'm entirely in support of. What I'm not in support of is assuming you have all the angles figured to the point that a certain outcome is inevitable, and then trying to force your way to that outcome when you're wrong.While I personally welcome a bit of well hidden GM fudging to say correct a mistake in preparations or save a fun/interesting part of the adventure from being ruined by fluke, I would probably be more hesitant if I hadn't also been spoiled with fantastic GMs who first learn their players' preferences and then fudge accordingly. So yeah, I would definitely leave a game if the GM turned out to have serious control issues they try hide behind mechanics tailored to render the players/PCs unable to meaningfully affect the narrative. And it certainly wouldn't help if the GM also resorted to obvious fiat because their lack of system-fu might otherwise cause them to lose control over their precious script.

Once again, I'm basing this off of the quote you did share.I can definitely see how that quote might give the wrong impression when taken out of the specific context relevant in my reply to Quertus.

The CR assumption is just one of many indicators of someone who endorses this kind of game/table, as experience has taught me. So it's entirely possible I'm being unfair.Well, more generally speaking, I also associate things such as the CR assumption, not to mention the inclusion of mechanics to resolve an event which is explicitly expected and intended to have only one outcome, with a type of adversarial/competitive GM style I've realized actually exists but which I've thankfully never experienced.

But I must say this doesn't seem to apply to RA, while it appears the adventure's general unfairness and deadliness are greatly exaggerated in a lot of the claims people make about it (including in this very thread). Yes the old-school style is certainly preserved, and it's intentionally designed to be difficult, with many opponents using far smarter, dirtier and deadlier tactics than they would in a typical modern adventure, but it's not even remotely as wacky or insanely lethal as say the original Tomb of Horrors. When run according to the instructions and GM advice it's AFAICT highly unlikely adventurers who are careful, methodical and suitably paranoid will accidentally run into any surprise TPKs, even if taking the most straight-forward route through the first five main levels.

And speaking of, now that I've had a more proper look at the first levels, I believe my earlier suspicions about RA being near impossible to solo were wrong. At least if the GM advice/guidelines are followed, treasure and xp awards remain as written and at least all lower level/cheaper magic items can be easily traded, also with slow or even half normal level progression I'm now pretty certain an optimized Master Summoner starting as early as 5th would be able to solo the entire adventure. AFAICT, such a build could have the combat effectiveness, wide range of skills/utility and staying power to quite reliably survive the first four main levels of the dungeon, which in turn should generate more than enough treasure and xp to improve the build's success chances to be at the very least on par with those of the sorta mid-op party of six the adventure seems to be designed for.

tiercel

2020-01-10, 01:35 PM

As a sidenote, again I find Orcus' CR 35, not to mention the certainty expressed by the author whenever referring to the power of Orcus as written, not just sadly comical and embarrassing, but also a bit confusing.

To be fair, there are a couple of abilities that Orcus as written has in all his forms that can be seen as pumping his effective CR a pretty fair bit, depending on the DM’s proclivity for doing so to the hilt, especially the second:

1). Summoning demons — this shouldn’t necessarily be unexpected, but adding up to 3 balors or around 7 mariliths (specifically atop the mariliths already present) isn’t nothing, but more to the point

2) Summoning undead — Orcus can summon 100HD of any undead (including, specifically, templated undead). If Orcus has any idea what the party is or does he can tune this ability — depending on the party’s composition, mobbing them with shadows might not actually be terrible, but book-diving and designing Orcus’ summons, yikes — “even” 4 semi-optimized 20th level liches should be, to put it mildly, a real problem. (Also, recall that all undead in the Boss Fight room, including the prestocked rabble, are fiat unturnable, and presumably could share Orcus’s and each other’s buffs.)

Given that summoned monsters in principle don’t add to the EL of an encounter because they are supposed to be accounted for in the CR of the summoner... Orcus’s summons alone could be 3x CR 20, 4xCR 22, or around EL 27 not counting environmental buffs for the level or room. It’s debatable whether that pushes Orcus all the way to CR 35, but it presumably establishes a bit of a floor as to his “actual” CR, and means this is one BBEG fight where action economy is not necessarily on the PCs’ side — Orcus summons can each have actions that are meaningful threats vs PCs, never mind that PCs looking to even the odds with battlefield control may find Orcus-liches, never mind Orcus himself, battlefield controlling right back at them.

Also note that Orcus should almost certainly have time to do his summoning before the Big Fight, and arguably should know *something* about the PCs even at bare minimum from demons’ encounters with them on this level.

upho

2020-01-12, 08:15 AM

To be fair, there are a couple of abilities that Orcus as written has in all his forms that can be seen as pumping his effective CR a pretty fair bit, depending on the DM’s proclivity for doing so to the hilt, especially the second:First, I think you may have missed a very important sidebar found on three different pages, because Orcus doesn't have those abilities in all forms, and in a real game I think you'll agree it would be highly unlikely he'll have any of them when facing PCs who have managed to find his lair:

For each shrine the PCs manage to cleanse, the Master gains 2 effective negative levels. In addition, if one shrine is cleansed, the Master loses the use of his 9th level spells. If 2 shrines are cleansed, the Master loses all his summoning spell-like abilities. If all 3 shrines are brought low, the Master is reduced to the following: DR 15/cold iron and good, SR 36, all At will Spell-Like Abilities are usable 1/day, and he loses the use of all Domain and Class Spell-Like Abilities.(My emphasis.)

It's extremely improbable PCs who start at a reasonably early character level will find a path back and forth through the dungeon to Orcus which never passes through the shrine on level 4, or one which makes them somehow miss the almost equally obvious second shrine on level 9. And I suspect it's even more improbable the PCs won't destroy the shrines, as even though they most likely won't realize it directly affects Orcus, they'll still at least want to render the shrines' useless for any surviving cult members or undead. Not to mention that finding and destroying the shrines (and the cult) may be the very reason why many PCs or parties want to explore RA in the first place.
Second, in the hypothetical scenario of a lone high-op PC facing Orcus at full power, I doubt even the most powerful of these abilities will necessarily have enough impact to actually alter the outcome of the fight:
1). Summoning demons — this shouldn’t necessarily be unexpected, but adding up to 3 balors or around 7 mariliths (specifically atop the mariliths already present) isn’t nothing, but more to the pointPractically any PC build I can think of which could achieve the combat values required to stand a chance against Orcus himself would barely register 3 balors, as their combat stats simply aren't high enough to matter. And 7 mariliths would probably have about as much impact on the outcome as 7 goblins.

2) Summoning undead — Orcus can summon 100HD of any undead (including, specifically, templated undead). If Orcus has any idea what the party is or does he can tune this ability — depending on the party’s composition, mobbing them with shadows might not actually be terrible, but book-diving and designing Orcus’ summons, yikes — “even” 4 semi-optimized 20th level liches should be, to put it mildly, a real problem. (Also, recall that all undead in the Boss Fight room, including the prestocked rabble, are fiat unturnable, and presumably could share Orcus’s and each other’s buffs.)Yes, if this works as you say, it could definitely make the fight incredibly difficult, if not flat-out impossible if the GM knows how Orcus can get the most out of it. However, per RAW I believe summon (Sp) abilities can only summon generic creatures, never unique individuals (just as the SM line of spells the ability is based on), which of course limits the customization possibilities of the summoned undead significantly and in turn their usefulness. And while the most powerful generic undead - like say a great wyrm red dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic-red/red-dragon-great-wyrm/) ravener (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ravener-CR-2) (underrated CR 24) - are certainly dangerous foes to most parties, as in the case of the balors, their actually relevant numbers likely wouldn't be sufficiently high to really matter against most high-op PCs able to take out Orcus.

And it's probably worth noting these summoning SLAs can only be cast during Orcus' own turn and the summoned creatures remain for 1 hour. Which is a long time for summon spell, but may still turn out to be too short for casting them before combat since Orcus doesn't initiate the fight as written. So he may need/want to save especially his far more powerful 1/day summon undead for his first turn to ensure he at least has a chance of benefiting, which of course also means the summons won't be able to help protect him against one-shot tactics as neither Orcus himself or any of his minions are likely to win initiative.

That said, if the summon undead ability can be properly timed, if nothing else it might at least provide a real advantage simply due to the summoned creatures' potentially great size and many hp, acting like a mobile wall of flesh which may protect Orcus against for example charge shenanigans.

(As an example, the mentioned Master Summoner build would likely first buff herself and her 15-20 or so minions to the high heavens. As a comparison, that's most likely more than 300 hd of augmented flying Gargantuan CR 14+ minions, plus maybe two CR 22 psychopomp "lieutenants" with cleric levels. Then she'd win initiative with her +35 or greater bonus and start by having her minions storm the room before she herself dives in on her falcon at up to 440 ft. speed (enough to ignore a large majority of BFC effects/abilities) and full attack Orcus with her 10 pistols from within 60 ft. Each of her 14 attacks would hit on a roll of 2+ vs touch AC, have at least a 50% chance to crit - even should Orcus somehow not be flat-footed - and ignore all cover, concealment and wind spell defenses, dealing enough total average damage to kill the poor demon lord almost twice over.)

Given that summoned monsters in principle don’t add to the EL of an encounter because they are supposed to be accounted for in the CR of the summoner... Orcus’s summons alone could be 3x CR 20, 4xCR 22, or around EL 27 not counting environmental buffs for the level or room. It’s debatable whether that pushes Orcus all the way to CR 35, but it presumably establishes a bit of a floor as to his “actual” CR, and means this is one BBEG fight where action economy is not necessarily on the PCs’ side — Orcus summons can each have actions that are meaningful threats vs PCs, never mind that PCs looking to even the odds with battlefield control may find Orcus-liches, never mind Orcus himself, battlefield controlling right back at them.Well, at least in theory and assuming a more "average" party I agree this is a valid point. The problem is that in practice such a party has basically been turned into obedient little wights the second they roll initiative if they face Orcus as written at full power, completely regardless of whether he uses one or more of his summon SLAs. And again, a PC actually capable of posing a real threat to Orcus at full power will most likely also not be significantly hindered by any of his comparatively very weak summoned minions, so the PC might very well still have the actual action economy advantage even should Team Orcus be able to perform ten times as many actions per round.

In short, these abilities provide lots of hd, but most likely no or very few actually relevant numbers. And again, since there are fewer builds able to stand a chance against say CR 30 Cthulhu...

But it may of course be that my way of looking at high CR ratings is actually off, and the theoretical challenge a creature poses to "average" low-op parties is the only relevant measure.

tiercel

2020-01-14, 03:20 AM

First, I think you may have missed a very important sidebar found on three different pages, because Orcus doesn't have those abilities in all forms, and in a real game I think you'll agree it would be highly unlikely he'll have any of them when facing PCs who have managed to find his lair

Hm, well poor editing one way or the other, since under Orcus’s actual entry specifically:
In All Forms: Orcus has the following abilities regardless of his condition:
... <many abilities snipped>...

Summon Undead (Sp): As their prince, Orcus can automatically summon up to 100 HD of any type of undead each day. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

Second, in the hypothetical scenario of a lone high-op PC facing Orcus at full power, I doubt even the most powerful of these abilities will necessarily have enough impact to actually alter the outcome of the fight:Practically any PC build I can think of which could achieve the combat values required to stand a chance against Orcus himself would barely register 3 balors, as their combat stats simply aren't high enough to matter. And 7 mariliths would probably have about as much impact on the outcome as 7 goblins.

Yes, if this works as you say, it could definitely make the fight incredibly difficult, if not flat-out impossible if the GM knows how Orcus can get the most out of it. However, per RAW I believe summon (Sp) abilities can only summon generic creatures, never unique individuals (just as the SM line of spells the ability is based on), which of course limits the customization possibilities of the summoned undead significantly and in turn their usefulness.

I wasn’t even considering the case of any lone PC *or* party reaching Orcus at full power, if for no other reason than that presumably anyone seeking to face Orcus (1) had to level up somewhere (2) has no objection to ridding the world of one of Orcus’s major cults (3) if having anything like the knowledge necessary to face Orcus, will have learned/researched/divinationed/Knowledge-cheesed their way into knowing about Orcus’s temples, or else, are just 100% completionist adventurers, right down to the silly goblin city.

Additionally, I wasn’t really worried about ridiculously epic PCs (solo or party) given that “balance” and “epic” seems... no... to me. (Plus, Orcus’s stats barely seem to make much use of Epic, despite the purported CR.) I was more interested in what seemed to be claims here that ~20th level PCs could defeat or even curbstomp Orcus as presented, and in that case...

...if we are talking about anything close to 20th level PCs, multiple balors certainly aren’t nothing.

Additionally, RA’s text in the 3.5 version of level 15 specifically allows Orcus to summon specific templated undead: “Orcus prefers to summon shadows, as he can summon a large number of them and they are unturnable and can gang up on his enemies and drain Strength. He also likes to summon vampires (Ftr18, with appropriate equipment such as +3 armor and +3 weapons; or Clr16, with similar equipment).” If Orcus can specifically summon vampires with class levels, presumably he could just concentrate on full-caster liches instead, never mind whatever other templated/advanced/class-leveled casting-undead are available....

This assumes that Orcus’s “in all forms” explicit stats trump the sidebar notes. Losing such massive summoning AND 9th level spells would seem a bigger blow to Orcus’s power and CR than the authors would seem to think, admittedly....

upho

2020-01-15, 11:31 AM

Hm, well poor editing one way or the other, since under Orcus’s actual entry specifically:Ah, seems the 3.5 version differ from the PF version then, and the latter doesn't include the details about these abilities you quoted. Hmm... I assume the sidebar I quoted also differ. What does the 3.5 version of that say?

I wasn’t even considering the case of any lone PC *or* party reaching Orcus at full power, if for no other reason than that presumably anyone seeking to face Orcus (1) had to level up somewhere (2) has no objection to ridding the world of one of Orcus’s major cults (3) if having anything like the knowledge necessary to face Orcus, will have learned/researched/divinationed/Knowledge-cheesed their way into knowing about Orcus’s temples, or else, are just 100% completionist adventurers, right down to the silly goblin city.Yep, it's highly unlikely to happen in a real game. I mentioned it because a PC/party would have to avoid the shrines for Orcus to still have the mentioned powerful abilities in the PF version, and because a few previous posts discussed the hypothetical scenario of a PC going solo against Orcus at full power.

Additionally, I wasn’t really worried about ridiculously epic PCs (solo or party) given that “balance” and “epic” seems... no... to me. (Plus, Orcus’s stats barely seem to make much use of Epic, despite the purported CR.)But I wasn't talking about an epic PC (epic doesn't even exist in PF), and not even about one with Mythic tiers (the closest equivalent to epic in PF), just a 20th level Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo-summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) Summoner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/) with some greater than normal WBL from going solo through the dungeon and having done a bit of crafting (no infinite money cheese or similar). Those 300+ hd of minions are btw coming from her frankly stupid SM IX SLA alone (she'd likely have at least 18/day), pimped up with a few summoning feats and items, and the psychopomps (who would likely fight Orcus free of charge) come from greater planar binding (still very powerful in PF, but not anywhere near as powerful as the 3.5 version).

I was more interested in what seemed to be claims here that ~20th level PCs could defeat or even curbstomp Orcus as presented, and in that case...Again, a single high-op 20th level PC could defeat Orcus as written at full power. Again, that's without 3.5 epic levels, PF Mythic tiers, questionable interpretations of RAW or anything generally banned or regarded as particularly cheesy AFAIK (with the possible exception of the class and archetype of the build I mentioned, but that's mostly great for surviving the dungeon and frankly not very good at fighting Orcus for the same reasons his summoning isn't very good against high-op PCs). An entire party of no less than six equally high-op PCs would of course ROFL curbstomp Orcus so far back into the Abyss he likely wouldn't dare return even after 666 years! :smallamused:

That said, in the hypothetical scenario where he still has the abilities as written in the 3.5 version, as mentioned I agree even a party of very high-op PCs might very well find this fight extremely difficult, since in that case Orcus himself is probably not the greatest threat.

...if we are talking about anything close to 20th level PCs, multiple balors certainly aren’t nothing.Three balors aren't nothing, but I honestly find it very hard to see how they'd actually matter against PCs who are fully capable of killing Orcus himself at full power as written in the PF version. Take a look at his basic combat numbers alone and think for a moment about what the corresponding numbers of such PCs must be for that to be true, and what those of balors are. If you do, it shouldn't be particularly surprising that for example a single initiator like mentioned Nelly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) can casually take out three of their CR 25 bigger brothers even outside her own turn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91), or that their offense would be practically useless against her if she'd choose to simply ignore them instead. Balors are simple brutes in relation to their CR, easily dealt with also for quite a few martials at this level. (I don't think even a lone high-op PF fighter 20 would have much reason to fear fighting twice as many, and some builds might very well take out all six in the first turn).

The thing that does matter is of course if Orcus can summon say a bunch of GM-tailored high-op undead full casters with 10 mythic tiers, as each one of those could very well pose a greater threat than Orcus himself.

This assumes that Orcus’s “in all forms” explicit stats trump the sidebar notes. Losing such massive summoning AND 9th level spells would seem a bigger blow to Orcus’s power and CR than the authors would seem to think, admittedly....Definitely.

tiercel

2020-01-15, 05:25 PM

Ah, seems the 3.5 version differ from the PF version then, and the latter doesn't include the details about these abilities you quoted. Hmm... I assume the sidebar I quoted also differ. What does the 3.5 version of that say?

In the 3.5 version, each sidebar only reads thus:

The unholy shrines in this dungeon, of which this is the first, provide power to the demon prince Orcus and his avatar, the “Master.” To cleanse the area of evil, PCs must destroy and consecrate each unholy shrine. Additionally, destroying the unholy shrines weakens Orcus’ avatar, making it possible for a high-level party to defeat him on Level 15.

(I should note that I only have the 3.5 version, and don’t know PF well enough to comment on PF PCs and abilities.)

Again, a single high-op 20th level PC could defeat Orcus as written at full power.

At sufficiently high-op, a PC could defeat anything once Pun-Pun, various infinite loops are on the table. Philosophically, my point is that if infinite loops—or even other, non-infinite-loop, high-op tricks—are on the table, it seems artificial to allow PCs to use them, but not Orcus, even though he is by lore a zillion years old and has zero moral qualms about seeking power.

Also there are certain mechanics that seem a little too easy to ignore, which is one more spike in the CR system. Generally I find that official CRs overvalue Spell Resistance, for instance. In Orcus’s case (again, 3.5 version),

SR 63 (fully powered) or even SR 45 (completely depowered) should, in principle, be a real problem for someone with CL even around 20, not to mention summons.

Admittedly, the direct solution is to cherry-pick every SR:No spell ever, which is one of the reasons SR and even 3.5 Magic “Immunity” are often take too seriously by CR — but I consider this to be a general problem in the magic system, how much “nonmagic magic” there is. What is the point of having the game system even having defenses against magic that don’t stop magic? Even so, such summons (i.e. Evil) as aren’t hedged out on Orcus’s level should find that their spells and SLAs mostly can’t do anything to Orcus, assuming they aren’t also allowed to cherry-pick.

In terms of high CRs generally, though, given the general power of full casters with even moderate optimization, much less above 15th level or so, I’d probably argue that it’s hard to create a genuine challenge of CR 20+ that doesn’t include 9th level casting to oppose the PCs, so

stripping Orcus of access to any 9th level spells or effects would almost seem to hard cap his actual challenge to something rather less than CR 20, admittedly — which is fine if the aim is to have a more typical “end boss” fight for a 15th-20th level party, depending on optimization level and other factors, but hardly the “Orcus gonna crush your souls” apparent stated intent.

upho

2020-01-16, 06:09 PM

In the 3.5 version, each sidebar only reads thus:Interesting.

The unholy shrines in this dungeon, of which this is the first, provide power to the demon prince Orcus and his avatar, the “Master.” To cleanse the area of evil, PCs must destroy and consecrate each unholy shrine. Additionally, destroying the unholy shrines weakens Orcus’ avatar, making it possible for a high-level party to defeat him on Level 15.I noted the 3.5 version of Orcus has a higher SR than the PF version in all forms (very reasonable considering how much more problematic SR typically is in PF), but are the actual effects of destroying all three shrines otherwise similar to those of the PF version I quoted?

(I should note that I only have the 3.5 version, and don’t know PF well enough to comment on PF PCs and abilities.)It appears to me the power of the PF version suffers from having been written back when there wasn't nearly as much PF content as there is now, and the PF CR rating is consequently even more off.

At sufficiently high-op, a PC could defeat anything once Pun-Pun, various infinite loops are on the table.This is an area where 3.5 and PF differ quite considerably, as a very large majority of 3.5 TO tricks don't exist in PF, and no PC builds even remotely close to Pun-Pun are possible.

Likewise, I'm not talking about TO stuff here; neither the mentioned summoner - a 6/9 caster (albeit with native access to many spells usually of a higher level, but still largely irrelevant in my example) - or any other build I've imagined able to beat PF Orcus as written would need any TO tricks or even 9th level spells. In fact, the builds I've thought of so far would use primarily martial combos merely buffed with lower level spells via UMD to take out Orcus. Here's another example I've touched upon in a previous post:

If you find it plausible a PC with say at least a +25 initiative and a 240'+ (Ex) fly charge speed would be able to charge or just full attack one of Orcus' allies within 60' of him, even a 20th level high-op PF human fighter focused on Intimidation and performance combat could practically end the fight in the same turn with near 100% certainty, scaring Orcus into cowering for easily more than 10 rounds and all his allies within 60' which aren't immune to mind-affecting or fear for easily more than twice as many rounds. (The DC to demoralize PF Orcus is 64 (10 + 45 hd + 9 Wis), most likely lower than this fighter's Intimidate bonus.) Btw, an initiator build with a bit of a similar Intimidation focus, such as the two I mentioned, would even remove any immunity to fear and mind-affecting enemies within 30' may have.

This fighter could very well also be able to easily dispel any spell within his 30'+ melee reach which isn't cast by Orcus himself, using simple sunder attempts and ignoring any miss chances caused by spells (none of Orcus' allies are likely to have anywhere near high enough CMD or CL to matter even the slightest against his sunder CMB of probably +70 or more). And that's on top of the same fighter also easily multiple rounds dazing any of Orcus' allies who attempts to move within the fighter's melee reach at any point, even by teleportation.

This "Prize Fighter from Hell" (named so for his extreme combat prowess and performance combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/performance-feats/) and damnation feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/)) is of course very high-op, but still firmly in the realm of PO IMO, using no infinite loops, commonly banned feats like Leadership, or any high level spells. The above combos are to a very large degree based only on combat feats, fighter (archetype and VMC barbarian) class features, and items with passive benefits, including no spells above even 3rd.
And while it's IMO a very good thing that PF high level martials can have considerably more combat power and PF casters have access to far less crazy TO shenanigans than their counterparts do in 3.5, things like the above still just shouldn't be possible against a CR 35 enemy. The same goes for how easily the party a poster here mentioned won that last encounter.

Philosophically, my point is that if infinite loops—or even other, non-infinite-loop, high-op tricks—are on the table, it seems artificial to allow PCs to use them, but not Orcus, even though he is by lore a zillion years old and has zero moral qualms about seeking power.I agree. And at least to me even more importantly, if I used "cakewalk"-Orcus as written in the grand epic finale of this adventure, I think a lot of players - especially those in my regular group - would be very disappointed.

Also there are certain mechanics that seem a little too easy to ignore, which is one more spike in the CR system. Generally I find that official CRs overvalue Spell Resistance, for instance. In Orcus’s case (again, 3.5 version),As far as I can remember the related stuff in 3.5, that seems very much to be the case, yes. And while SR isn't as easily ignored and penetration checks can't be boosted nearly as high in PF, it appears it still has been overvalued in at least this case.

SR 63 (fully powered) or even SR 45 (completely depowered) should, in principle, be a real problem for someone with CL even around 20, not to mention summons.Just in case you got the wrong impression, in the example I mentioned with the solo Master Summoner, the summons would be near worthless against Orcus himself even if he had no SR at all, his other defense values being too high anyways. The two psychopomps could at least theoretically be able to affect him by for example using a firearms combo similar to that of the summoner herself, but I didn't take that into consideration.

In terms of high CRs generally, though, given the general power of full casters with even moderate optimization, much less above 15th level or so, I’d probably argue that it’s hard to create a genuine challenge of CR 20+ that doesn’t include 9th level casting to oppose the PCs, soWhile this is less the case in PF, I can agree that

stripping Orcus of access to any 9th level spells or effects would almost seem to hard cap his actual challenge to something rather less than CR 20, admittedly — which is fine if the aim is to have a more typical “end boss” fight for a 15th-20th level party, depending on optimization level and other factors, but hardly the “Orcus gonna crush your souls” apparent stated intent.