If a shadow under my control creates a new shadow, is it also under my control?

[Greywander]

Title.

I noticed that shadow dragons can create shadows with their breath weapon, and that the shadow is under the dragon's control. Shadows can also create more shadows, however nothing indicates that the new shadow is in any way friendly to its creator. I suppose this question would be relevant for NPCs anyway, but it might also be possible for a PC to get access to the shadow breath. The Shapechange or True Polymorph spells could do this. You could also bend the rules on half-dragons, as a half-dragon gets access to their dragon parent's breath weapon (though I'd expect the offspring of, say, a red shadow dragon to just be a red half-dragon, without the shadow part).

Even if the shadows aren't under your control, this would still be quite powerful. If you're not an evil character, however, it may be difficult to keep them from getting out of hand.

I wonder how many shadows you could store in a bag of holding or portable hole? I bet it's a lot.

[Trask]

I would it rule it differently depending on what measure of control were talking about. If you are completely dominating a shadow that is creating shadows, then the creator shadow is an extension of your will and therefore all the shadows it creates that are controlled by it are as well. But if your control over the creator shadow extends only so far as something like the charm condition, then I would say that the creator shadow will do what you want it to, but decide how to use it's shadows itself and you wouldn't have direct control over them.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

About the bag and hole.

Shadows have this nice ability;
Amorphous. The shadow can move through a space as narrow as 1 inch wide without squeezing.

I use the metric system so I will not make the calculation for it but I believe a lot of 1 inch cubes can feet a portable hole and bag of holding.

Just make sure the shadows never stop moving because they can always fit this space when moving (that what the ability says).

It will be like a shadow fluid.

[Greywander]

I would it rule it differently depending on what measure of control were talking about. If you are completely dominating a shadow that is creating shadows, then the creator shadow is an extension of your will and therefore all the shadows it creates that are controlled by it are as well. But if your control over the creator shadow extends only so far as something like the charm condition, then I would say that the creator shadow will do what you want it to, but decide how to use it's shadows itself and you wouldn't have direct control over them.
This makes sense. The shadow breath doesn't get specific, it just says that the shadows are "under the dragon's control". I would assume this is more akin to total domination.

It sounds like you might not have picked up on the point of contention, though. Shadows created by another shadow aren't under the original shadow's control. They're independent. It makes sense that a permanently dominated shadow would impart that domination to new shadows it creates, but this certainly isn't the only way to interpret it.


a lot of 1 inch cubes can feet a portable hole and bag of holding.
The only problem with this is that I don't think the shadow is compressing down to a 1 inch cube. I think it's more like a "rod" with a 1 inch diameter and an undefined length.

My instinct would be that shadows are weightless and 2 dimensional, and thus you could fit an infinite number inside any container. Otherwise, a reasonable way to rule it is that they have the same size and weight as the creature they were spawned from, but their Amorphous ability allows them to squeeze through tight spaces. If not weightless and 2 dimensional, though, I'd like to think they're at least equivalent to, say, a piece of fabric cut into the shape of the creature they were spawned from.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No nothing in 5e indicates a Shadow has control over its spawn.

[Trask]

It sounds like you might not have picked up on the point of contention, though. Shadows created by another shadow aren't under the original shadow's control. They're independent. It makes sense that a permanently dominated shadow would impart that domination to new shadows it creates, but this certainly isn't the only way to interpret it.

You're right, I didn't pick that up. My gut instinct in that case is to say that newly created shadows are not under the control of the controller, just to avoid any kind of cheese, but I could see myself being lax about it. It is an interesting question though, a RAW interpretation definitely suggests that the shadows are not in any way controlled, but a more RAI reading that shadows would probably work together is definitely also within the realm of possibility.

I'm still gonna have to go with a no on it though, just in case any of my players read this after in a situation where they control a shadow and decide that they'd like a personal army of the incorporeal undead.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The only problem with this is that I don't think the shadow is compressing down to a 1 inch cube. I think it's more like a "rod" with a 1 inch diameter and an undefined length.

My instinct would be that shadows are weightless and 2 dimensional, and thus you could fit an infinite number inside any container. Otherwise, a reasonable way to rule it is that they have the same size and weight as the creature they were spawned from, but their Amorphous ability allows them to squeeze through tight spaces. If not weightless and 2 dimensional, though, I'd like to think they're at least equivalent to, say, a piece of fabric cut into the shape of the creature they were spawned from.

The Shadow have this flavour text:

If a creature from which a shadow has been created somehow returns to life, its undead shadow senses the return. The shadow might seek its “parent” to vex or slay. Whether the shadow pursues its living counterpart, the creature that birthed the shadow no longer casts one until the monster is destroyed.

It looks like they are literal Shadows, look like they are 2 dimensional to me too.

[JackPhoenix]

I wonder how many shadows you could store in a bag of holding or portable hole? I bet it's a lot.

0 and 2, respectively. Shadows are medium creatures, which means they take 5' cube of space they can't share with another creature, and they still require 5' cube if they squeeze (as that is the space requirement for a small creature), which means bag's 64 cubic feet, i.e. 4' cube, is too small for one. Shadows can *move* through smaller spaces, but not stay in them.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

0 and 2, respectively. Shadows are medium creatures, which means they take 5' cube of space they can't share with another creature, and they still require 5' cube if they squeeze (as that is the space requirement for a small creature), which means bag's 64 cubic feet, i.e. 4' cube, is too small for one. Shadows can *move* through smaller spaces, but not stay in them.

Isn't this rule for combat?

[HappyDaze]

Isn't this rule for combat?

Yes. The idea that a halfling cannot fit into a 4'x4'x4' cube outside of combat is ridiculous. If it were an elevator, that cube could easily hold 4 halflings.

[Spore]

This area is most likely DM fiat so I'll explain my reasoning as the following.

Shadows are basically simple hunters (Int 6). They prey on the living, they cannot harm each other, they do not speak a language. If you can convince them you will feed them (as a living controller not immune to necrotic damage) I feel they will work for you. If the controller is immune to necrotic damage, they cannot hurt you anyhow, if you are resistant, I feel if you are strong enough they will relent from attacking you if they see reason for you to live (i.e. maybe a high level character/high CR monster that can't be defeated and devoured without loosing your unlife in the process).

I know this is a "depends" answer. But if it feels reasonable for the dragon to control the shadows, do it. If not, they won't. I also feel there is a "critical mass" after which the shadows would just turn against their master seeing their strength in their number.

If you are a dark priest/warlock/witch with a handful of shadows bound to you, they'll probably still contest your power every once in a while but if you are a single mortal binding several dozen shadows, just look out or the darkness envelops you.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Isn't this rule for combat?

Isn't Amorphous?

Even if Amorphous is conveniently read as having nothing to do with grid positioning and movement, it doesn't actually say shadows can stack arbitrarily in the same space.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Isn't Amorphous?

Even if Amorphous is conveniently read as having nothing to do with grid positioning and movement, it doesn't actually say shadows can stack arbitrarily in the same space.

But there are reasons to use Amorphous outside of combat (for exploring).

I offered it as an option, someone may say that it doesn't work and some will say it will.

From how I read it as long as the shadow moves he can fit a small space like this and a group os shadows can creat a small space between themselves. So it you can keep them moving and stack them in a way such holes are created you will have a fluid made out of Shadows (I say fluid because this body of Shadows based on my interpretation of the rules will act like one where the particles that creates the fluid are 1 inchs shadows).

I said in a lot of time. I hate the fact that the rules aren't clear so there is never a clear answer. Unfortunately I enjoy this edition so I have to deal with it.

[Mjolnirbear]

0 and 2, respectively. Shadows are medium creatures, which means they take 5' cube of space they can't share with another creature, and they still require 5' cube if they squeeze (as that is the space requirement for a small creature), which means bag's 64 cubic feet, i.e. 4' cube, is too small for one. Shadows can *move* through smaller spaces, but not stay in them.

Um, no.

The spacing rules are, indeed, for combat only. A human, a medium sized creature, is not shaped like a cube 5' on a side. Even the fattest humans aren't 5 feet wide. A small creature like a halfling is significantly smaller than a human but still occupies 5' in combat.

This 5' space represents the area you threaten or control. It's space a combatant needs for lunges, swings, parries, dodges, and kicks. It is still a huge space.

Expressly in the PHB, page 190, the size of a creature is the area it controls, not the space it takes up.


Isn't Amorphous?

Even if Amorphous is conveniently read as having nothing to do with grid positioning and movement, it doesn't actually say shadows can stack arbitrarily in the same space.

Amorphous is a trait, not a combat action. It is absurd to think it can only use Shadow Stealth or Amorphous during combat and that sunlight sensitivity only affects it while fighting. These are generic traits used all the time, not just in battle, or else an archmage could not cast spells most of the time.

Even Actions aren't restricted to combat. Nor are they the only thing monsters can do. They are simply combat-oriented because the DM uses them as obstacles. Just as characters aren't restricted to actions listed on their character sheet, neither are monsters.

Shadows can't stack in the same space in combat because free combat rules prohibit it. You can't occupy another creature's space in combat except in special circumstances, such as being eaten.

But you can certainly fit 5 people in a 5' space. Sex would be impossible otherwise. So could hugs.

The rules for non-combat space-occupation don't exist. DMs are to use their logic. A father can shelter with his family in a closet; the mom who is actively fighting the goblin raiders cannot fight in a closet and needs more room.

We don't know how much a shadow weighs, but we do know it is amorphous, and we know it is literally a shadow a person once cast. The rest is up to the DM, and in my case, I would rule the limit on how many shadows you can put in a bag of holding is quite a lot, and I'd assign some value by volume since shadows logically should be basically weightless.

[tomjon]

To the op question. Back in ad&d 1st edition (May have been basic) you could use undead Liege Lord system. Simply put “The Vassal of my vassal is not my vassal”. So in essence you could command the maker of shadow(a) to have shadow(a) do something but you could not command shadow(a) to do it.

Worked with all types of undead. But they had some restrictions on how many each could control.

[Phhase]

Title.

I noticed that shadow dragons can create shadows with their breath weapon, and that the shadow is under the dragon's control. Shadows can also create more shadows, however nothing indicates that the new shadow is in any way friendly to its creator. I suppose this question would be relevant for NPCs anyway, but it might also be possible for a PC to get access to the shadow breath. The Shapechange or True Polymorph spells could do this. You could also bend the rules on half-dragons, as a half-dragon gets access to their dragon parent's breath weapon (though I'd expect the offspring of, say, a red shadow dragon to just be a red half-dragon, without the shadow part).

Even if the shadows aren't under your control, this would still be quite powerful. If you're not an evil character, however, it may be difficult to keep them from getting out of hand.

I wonder how many shadows you could store in a bag of holding or portable hole? I bet it's a lot.

Immediately after seeing that the Mystic could summon shadows as an ability, I put a great deal of thought into this. Here's what you need to know:

The most important aspect is not whether the shadows are under your control, it is whether or not the shadows can force their way out of a Bag of Holding. Getting them in is easy. Just throw in the body of any creature that was killed by a shadow, since they don't rise immediately. If the DM rules that the body is not destroyed by the process, destroy the majority of the body and toss in the smallest piece.

Of course, unleashing uncontrolled shadows on your enemies has dangers, but eh. It's cool.

If need be, the Hallow spell actually has extreme utility here. It says that you cast the spell on a "Point". It says nothing about the point being static, and it explicitly states that the radius can be of any size up to 60ft. So theoretically, you could cast it on the inside edge of the Bag (It helps that the bag's interior is specifically a seperate dimesion that moves with the Material Plane bag-object. Point being that its interior is an "area"), so that the shadows could only escape if the bag was turned inside-out, something that is easy automated. Hallow is also permanent. This has the bonus feature of allowing you to toss soon-to-rise body parts in as they are not yet undead.

Friendly shadows, are, of course, more useful and flexible, but hey.

Why is it an evil character would find controlling them easier?


Um, no.
But you can certainly fit 5 people in a 5' space. Sex would be impossible otherwise. So could hugs.


Don't be silly. Everyone knows that in Thomas Was Alone 5th edition dungeons and dragons, humanoids have arms and wangs that are at least 6 feet in length, such that they might reach into another character's space. :smalltongue: /s

[Greywander]

No nothing in 5e indicates a Shadow has control over its spawn.

My gut instinct in that case is to say that newly created shadows are not under the control of the controller, just to avoid any kind of cheese,
This is probably the correct answer. It might be fine for an NPC, but a PC can and will quickly run things off the rails with an unrestricted ability like this. In fact, I tend to adjudicate rules like this with the mindset of "if it's fair for the players, it's fair for the NPCs, and vice versa". If the PCs can abuse it, so can the NPCs, and there's not really any reason an NPC wouldn't abuse a power like that, except you as the DM artificially restricting them. I suppose this correlates to a Combat as War mindset, so if you're Combat as Sport you might not see this the same way.


Why is it an evil character would find controlling them easier?
Not so much controlling them, but an Evil character will care less about spawning evil monsters into the world. For a Good or Neutral character, having shadows under your control should be fine, since you control them. They won't harm innocents unless you tell them to. But if you, say, send them in to clean out a goblin camp, they're going to create a bunch of independent shadows that will go on to hurt innocent people. If you're Evil, you probably aren't as concerned about this.

In fact, an Evil character could "shadow bomb" an enemy city. Send a group of shadows in that will begin to convert the citizens to more shadows. These, in turn, will go on to create even more shadows. Move quickly enough, and by the time a defense can be organized there are already too many shadows. This, of course, leaves a big mass of independent shadows left over, but if you're Evil you probably don't care and can clean them up or leave them be as is convenient.


they cannot harm each other,
I wonder about this. It's true they're immune to necrotic damage, but as far as I can tell, nothing prevents them from having their STR drained, and they die if it reaches 0. Aside from that, there are a number of general rules that apply to all creatures by default. Shadows should be able to make regular unarmed attacks (which will deal no damage because of their poor STR score); see the frog stat block for an example of a creature that specifically can't attack. While their unarmed strikes might be limp-wristed, nothing is stopping them from picking up a weapon; the will-'o-wisp stat block is an example of a creature that specifically prohibits equipment use. Shadows are also just as susceptible to fall damage, or other environmental damage, and nothing says they can't grapple.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if I'm concerned about spawning independent shadows, I can just order the shadows under my control to kill any shadows they create. It should be possible for them to do so.


Isn't Amorphous?

Even if Amorphous is conveniently read as having nothing to do with grid positioning and movement, it doesn't actually say shadows can stack arbitrarily in the same space.
Amorphous is not a combat ability, it is an exploration ability. If there's a crack or hole that is at least 1 inch wide, the shadow can squeeze through it, while most other creatures could not. That's all the Amorphous trait really means. Although we can also infer that a shadow is probably capable of contorting its body in such a way so as to compress it into the absolute smallest volume that could contain it. Speaking of...


Yes. The idea that a halfling cannot fit into a 4'x4'x4' cube outside of combat is ridiculous. If it were an elevator, that cube could easily hold 4 halflings.
Too lazy to crunch the math, but according to one source online, a 155 pound person has a volume of 2.43 cubic feet. Doing the math (because we stopped being lazy, or couldn't find an easy answer online), that means a human (not even a halfling, but a full human) can compress themselves into a cube that is about 1 and 1/3 feet along each edge. A 1.33 foot cube, for a full human.

Obviously, a human can't contort themselves in such a way so as to compress themselves down to such a minimal size, but a trained contortionist can get pretty close (although it may not be a cube, strictly speaking). A shadow with the Amorphous ability shouldn't need any training to do this, as it's implied in the ability itself. And that's assuming that a shadow has the same volume as the creature that spawned them, or any volume at all.


Um, no.

The spacing rules are, indeed, for combat only. A human, a medium sized creature, is not shaped like a cube 5' on a side. Even the fattest humans aren't 5 feet wide. A small creature like a halfling is significantly smaller than a human but still occupies 5' in combat.

This 5' space represents the area you threaten or control. It's space a combatant needs for lunges, swings, parries, dodges, and kicks. It is still a huge space.

Expressly in the PHB, page 190, the size of a creature is the area it controls, not the space it takes up.
I'd say it's more the space required to swing a weapon around. Even if an ally enters that 5 foot cube, they're still in danger of being struct by accident, so it's not so much about an area you "threaten" as it is that you just need that much room to maneuver. During combat, it simply isn't possible to get closer than that to someone, as doing so would be too dangerous, even if it was an ally.

We could also infer from this that if you're squeezed into a space smaller than this, that you're not able to fight effectively. You might make attacks with disadvantage, or you might not be able to attack at all. It would depend on how tight the space is and how big your weapon is. Obviously this is up to DM fiat, as we don't want to mess around with tables detailing weapon length, space required, height penalties, etc.


We don't know how much a shadow weighs, but we do know it is amorphous, and we know it is literally a shadow a person once cast. The rest is up to the DM, and in my case, I would rule the limit on how many shadows you can put in a bag of holding is quite a lot, and I'd assign some value by volume since shadows logically should be basically weightless.
I think either would work. Either give them a weight and ignore volume, or give them a volume and ignore weight. I feel like I see more people ignoring volume restrictions, especially since a lot of the basic equipment packs already contain more gear than a backpack can hold, volume-wise. As for a specific weight, I feel like that's going to be extremely arbitrary. "Weightless" might mean 0.01 of a pound, so almost, but not quite nothing. But even 1 lbs would still be extremely light compared to the creature it was spawned from. As would 10 lbs (assuming a human-sized creature, rather than, say, a gnome).

This source (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow) claims shadows weigh 0 lbs, citing the 3.5 Monster Manual.