Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

[Greenflame133]

I have run a few tabletop games for wlw community (because I love them so much and always want to give back) and there is an odd thing I noticed. A lot of these ladies are trans and I wonder why. It's me bringing people like me? It is just because there is something about the trans-girl experience making us more likely to play TTRPGs? Maybe a desire to be someone else in that imaginary word?

[Anonymouswizard]

Out of my experience playing TTRPGS about one eighth of the women I've played with were assigned male at birth. However that's also a sample size of less than ten people.

The way stats link to reality is weird. If you're in an area with a lot of trans women then it's likely that they'll be more of them playing TTRPGs than if you're in an area with fewer trans women, and other factors also ensure a less even spread. Most likely there's not any kind of strong trend when looking at it from a broader perspective.

[JNAProductions]

Speaking from personal experience, my anecdotes match yours, Greenflame. Lots of trans ladies, not as many women who were born in the right body for them.

[Unavenger]

You're not the first person to note this, either. My guess is that it's a combination of two factors: one, as RPGs allow you to play a character who is - usually without argument - treated as whatever gender you, the player, decide they are, which is obviously appealing to trans people. Two, gender stereotypes are still in full force in a lot of places. People who are AFAB may be dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such, while AMAB people may be persuaded to. Therefore, trans women are more likely to play D&D than cis women because AMAB people in general are more likely to play D&D than AFAB people in general.

In your particular case, you mention that you run games for the "wlw community" (for the uninitiated: lesbian and bisexual women). It should be noted that about 70% of trans women fall into this category, as opposed to about 10% of women in general. This means that your gaming group is more likely to consist of trans women even than the average gaming group - by about seven times.

[mrgrtt123]

I feel like its not just you who are wondering as to why trans love to play TTRPGs. I have seen this topic on a different gaming community and the same question has been made. Maybe because RPG games allow you to be the character that you can't be in real life.

[Scarlet Knight]

I think Unavenger has got it right.

RPG's appeal to and target males. While the number of "Gamer Girls" is increasing, they are still by far a minority.

Look to your local game shops to see the gender mix rather than the games you run, which may be unique subsets.

[Phhase]

Perhaps I am anomalous, but the games I've played in have had many girls, none of which (to my knowledge) were trans. Hell, a random group I scrapped together from students was 3 girls (prospectively 4) and 2 dudes.

The terrain, I suppose.

[Rynael]

Just here to second that "anomaly." It's almost or entirely social. I and all (literally 100%) of the [cis] women and girls in my immediate family and friend circle are interested in RPGs, fantasy, etc. My mother and stepmother were both formerly interested in D&D, but had bad, very stereotypical experiences with openly misogynistic all-male D&D groups when they were younger that soured them on the hobby, while remaining in fantasy in general. What interests are encouraged or discouraged during your formative years has a difficult effect to overcome.

I also think that Unavenger probably has the right idea, but Scarlet Knight has misinterpreted it. I'm simply adding the anecdote that "people who are AFAB" who weren't "dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such," have, in my experience, all proven equally interested.

[Chronos]

A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.

[JNAProductions]

A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.

But I have anecdotes! ANECDOTES! :P

[Themrys]

A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.

I have no trouble believing it without any statistically relevant evidence.

Why?

Because it matches exactly my experiences in the fanfic community.

Eight women, two transmen, everyone wondering why there are no cis men interested in the fandom.

And I don't think we drove them away with open misandry. :smallwink:

[The Fury]

Throwing my own experience into the mix, I've seen more LGBTQ women playing TTRPGs in general. Not all of them are trans women, but some are.

Funnily enough, I've had a similar conversation IRL about why LGBTQ people like TTRPGs, because... well, most of us seem to. I don't know that there is a single reason though.

[Willie the Duck]

One thing to note is that this probably differs (in degree) depending on whether we are talking about the online and the face to face gaming community. Forums like these (or potentially where the OP might have run their wlw ttrpgs) are safe places for the trans community to be open and forthright about their status.

[GrayDeath]

One thing to note is that this probably differs (in degree) depending on whether we are talking about the online and the face to face gaming community. Forums like these (or potentially where the OP might have run their wlw ttrpgs) are safe places for the trans community to be open and forthright about their status.

Agreed. That and as mentioned above the "terrain".

For example, I have "met" 2 trans people in longer running online games, interestingly one Transwoman one Transman (talk about statistics), but (as far as they told us that is) none in "RL Roleplaying". And my groups over the last 15 years included roughly 50 different people, a full 6 of them female. ^^

Might have to add that I live in an area considered rather conservative for the country I am from.

[TruthofRuth]

As a trans woman, I agree with Unavenger's take; it's still a male-dominated hobby, and often the women who play it are AMAB and don't realize they're trans until they've gotten into the hobby of TTRPGs.

[Scarlet Knight]

As a trans woman, I agree with Unavenger's take; it's still a male-dominated hobby, and often the women who play it are AMAB and don't realize they're trans until they've gotten into the hobby of TTRPGs.

Wow, I guess I did misunderstand. I don't believe TTRPGs lead men to be trans any more than watching broadway shows do & I certainly would not use the word "often".

[AvatarVecna]

In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.

EDIT: I wouldn't suggest that TTRPG's are likely to turn people from AMAB to a trans woman, but if I were to guess at statistics without having them in front of me, my guess would be that it's a particular hobby that makes...exploring the idea of coming out, or exploring the idea of being treated as another gender, easier to deal with without the repercussions that actually coming out as trans might entail. If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.

[Selion]

I have run a few tabletop games for wlw community (because I love them so much and always want to give back) and there is an odd thing I noticed. A lot of these ladies are trans and I wonder why. It's me bringing people like me? It is just because there is something about the trans-girl experience making us more likely to play TTRPGs? Maybe a desire to be someone else in that imaginary word?

Uhm, i've played with a few women and never met a trans among them.
BTW, if i'm allowed a wild guess, playing a game in which you could be literally anyone requires a certain degree of open mindness, it's possible that the percentage of potential trans-girl is the same, but there's an higher chance of them overcoming the hardships in the transition among RPG gamers.

[Ravens_cry]

I was the only transwoman in my group near as I can tell, and there was other women. Given how rare trans folk are compared to ciswomen, I severely doubt more transwomen are playing than ciswomen total, but more proportionally speaking? Potentially.

[Unavenger]

Wow, I guess I did misunderstand. I don't believe TTRPGs lead men to be trans any more than watching broadway shows do & I certainly would not use the word "often".

No-one's suggesting that RPGs cause people to be trans. We're suggesting that AFAB people are likely to be dissuaded from playing them, so a fair fraction of even the female players are not AFAB.

[Scarlet Knight]

Ok, that's how I originally understood you.

It was the later "often the women who play it are AMAB" from Truthof Ruth that I felt was in error.

[Themrys]

In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.

EDIT: I wouldn't suggest that TTRPG's are likely to turn people from AMAB to a trans woman, but if I were to guess at statistics without having them in front of me, my guess would be that it's a particular hobby that makes...exploring the idea of coming out, or exploring the idea of being treated as another gender, easier to deal with without the repercussions that actually coming out as trans might entail. If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.

It's not the marketing, it's the players. Okay, perhaps it is the marketing, too (do new games still try to give women a minus on strength to make their world with dragons more "realistic"?), but I could tell you some stories about players ... (I include GMs. In fact, the worst person I personally met GMed in that group.)

The first time I joined an all-male group, I intentionally made a male character as to avoid being treated as a woman. Because that either means misogyny or attempts to hit on me, neither of which I appreciate.

One of the players still got ... somewhat inappropriately physical. I can't know if he does that with male acquaintances, but I, for my part, do not pat strangers' shoulders.

However, the GM of that group was a decent enough guy, so I was somewhat lulled into safety, so I made a female character with a (different) male GM next time.

... I really shouldn't have.

There was a lot of misogyny, and though he didn't add much description when he made our characters wake up suddenly naked, I should have taken it as a warning sign - he pulled the same thing again when I was the only woman in the group, and then really heaped on the misogyny.

After that, I narrowly escaped a misogynist group (GM accidentally sent a mail to me he had intended to only send to the existing all-male group ...) and a misogynist player. (I can only recommend telling every new group that you would like to play an Amazon warrior. The all-women tribe, not the bookseller. As I had calculated, the skeevy dude at once piped up "but only if she's not a man-hater" ... in a game, it should be noted, where Amazons are an official culture and live in peace with other countries, so avoiding group conflict can't have been his motive.)


So, yeah. Perhaps the marketing is bad, too, but I guarantee you, that wouldn't stop any woman from playing. Nothing, after all, prevents a male GM from saying "Oh, yes, that malus on female characters' strength, don't worry about it, we just don't use that rule. And that incredibly misogynist evil matriarchy where the women wear uncomfortable, skimpy clothes to show status? Yeah, I think that's rather tasteless, too, you won't encounter it in my games. That culture is just normally dressed evil people whose gender roles don't differ from those in the good cultures."

Interestingly, there are lots of groups with female players here. Now, that could be because the most popular game in my country doesn't have misogynist gameplay mechanics or worldbuilding. However, the only group that maintained a high percentage of female players until it dissolved ... was GMed by a woman. Who decided to kick a player out after he had been extremely inappropriate towards a woman's character ingame.


Just saying. Oh, the women in the other group didn't complain. They just ... didn't have time anymore. Too demanding job. Et cetera. But one does wonder ...

(I was never afraid to tell men exactly why I was leaving the group, but I don't think most women are like that.)


PS: I see you speak about "marketing" of "communities" so perhaps you did mean the players? Eh, well. I will just leave that here to enlighten everyone to the possible reasons of the perceived phenomenon.

[Rynael]

A) Can confirm that's 100% consistent with my mom's, stepmom's, and cousin's past experiences (my cousin got back into D&D with better groups, though). I've always played exclusively with my personal friends.

B) The marketing's actively attempted to assume 50% of PCs were female for a while now, with alternating pronouns in the books, etc, at least back to 3.5, although I remember the designs still being on the objectifying side in the past. No statistical differences, though.


So, yeah. Perhaps the marketing is bad, too, but I guarantee you, that wouldn't stop any woman from playing. Nothing, after all, prevents a male GM from saying "Oh, yes, that malus on female characters' strength, don't worry about it, we just don't use that rule. And that incredibly misogynist evil matriarchy where the women wear uncomfortable, skimpy clothes to show status? Yeah, I think that's rather tasteless, too, you won't encounter it in my games. That culture is just normally dressed evil people whose gender roles don't differ from those in the good cultures."

C) This actually reminds me of how most people I know treat the Monster Manual lore (specifically regarding the "savage humanoids") nowadays. A lot of people still don't care for it, but they just change it in their own campaign settings. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play orcs "by the book," for example.

D) I've noticed a major resurgence in D&D since 5e with podcasts like Critical Role, Adventure Zone, etc. That's when pretty much everyone I know got into D&D at least once or twice, and those groups have been a whole lot more diverse.


we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.

E) I know two, both DMs, for what it's worth.

[Lissou]

In my own experience, almost everyone I played with was male (and cis), and the couple women I've played with (plus me) are all cis.

I'd love to see data about it though.

[TaiLiu]

Most likely there's not any kind of strong trend when looking at it from a broader perspective.
Yeah, I think I agree with this.

People who are AFAB may be dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such, while AMAB people may be persuaded to. Therefore, trans women are more likely to play D&D than cis women because AMAB people in general are more likely to play D&D than AFAB people in general.

If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.
I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.

It's not the marketing, it's the players.
Seconded, unfortunately.

[Themrys]

I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.


How do you explain, then, that they appear to behave like coherent social categories in many people's experience?

I haven't seen it in rpgs - but then, being a woman, I can hardly observe the absence of women in a group I'm in - but I have sure seen it in fanfiction/fandom groups. Lots of women, a couple transmen, that's it. And I think it is especially interesting that that's exactly the people missing from the rpg-groups mentioned above.

Sure, it is all anecdotal evidence, but then, so is the absence of women in gaming in general - I doubt a scientific study has been done on it.

[137beth]

Yeah, I think I agree with this.


I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.

While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's common for trans people who haven't yet realized they are trans to recieve similar treatment as other people of their assigned sex. They might not internalize that treatment the same way, though.

I think the argument that previous posters were making is that trans women get into TTRPGs before they even realize they are women, and hence, before others start discouraging them from participating in TTRPGs. Likewise, trans men who have not yet started socially transitioning will likely be given the same sort of discouragement that other AFAB people get (though they would likely internalize it differently).

[Scarlet Knight]

For those looking for data on gender and RPGs, I came across this lit review:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a08e/5b5a94fe9669470f52ab021217b8273516e3.pdf.

It doesn't speak to Cis / Trans but to male /female which is a good place to start.

[TaiLiu]

How do you explain, then, that they appear to behave like coherent social categories in many people's experience?
Amongst cis people or trans people? I don't think there's ever really a monocausal social phenomena, but for cis people, I think it's partially transphobia. A subtle and watered down version of "you're actually a man / woman."

As a trans person, I certainly don't think of them as coherent social categories. (Obviously. :smalltongue:) I can't comment on other trans people, but I do know my view's not unique.

I haven't seen it in rpgs - but then, being a woman, I can hardly observe the absence of women in a group I'm in - but I have sure seen it in fanfiction/fandom groups. Lots of women, a couple transmen, that's it. And I think it is especially interesting that that's exactly the people missing from the rpg-groups mentioned above.

Sure, it is all anecdotal evidence, but then, so is the absence of women in gaming in general - I doubt a scientific study has been done on it.
Apologies, I'm not sure I understand what "it" is - I'm sure I'm just missing something obvious. Do you mind clarifying?

While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's common for trans people who haven't yet realized they are trans to recieve similar treatment as other people of their assigned sex. They might not internalize that treatment the same way, though.

I think the argument that previous posters were making is that trans women get into TTRPGs before they even realize they are women, and hence, before others start discouraging them from participating in TTRPGs. Likewise, trans men who have not yet started socially transitioning will likely be given the same sort of discouragement that other AFAB people get (though they would likely internalize it differently).
Part of my argument's that that's actually not necessarily true. Like, lots of us on this forum are neurodivergent. But we display that neurodivergency before we ever realize it or have it diagnosed, and people pick up on that - that's why so many of us faced ableism as children for acting weird or talking weird or whatnot. Sometimes gay kids face homophobia for being gay, and, again, people notice that and act accordingly. They can even act accordingly even if they themselves cannot name why they're acting accordingly! A schoolyard bully can be ableist to an autistic student - that ableism is not contingent on either the bully or the student knowing that the student's autistic.

I know of lots of trans women who say that as trans girls (whether they knew or not), they weren't treated similarly to cis boys. Probably the most famous account is by Laverne Cox, who made a short Twitter thread about it (https://www.vulture.com/2017/03/laverne-cox-chimamanda-adichie-trans-women-privilege.html). It seems strange to discount these accounts by arguing for AMAB/AFAB coherency.

[Xihirli]

I mean most actual table games I've run had one cis player so I guess I've seen more trans than cis women, but I've also seen more cis women at my table than cis men.

[Lissou]

I can see how what you were assigned at birth may be relevant, if you transitioned later in life. That doesn't mean that's true for all trans people, but people are treated by others based on what they were assigned at birth before they transition, so I can definitely imagine someone who was AMAB being encouraged (or at least not discouraged) from playing "boy" games, while someone who was AFAB being actively discouraged.
Being the only female out of 4 kids, I can definitely attest to that kind of thing. I was activelly discouraged from playing MtG and WoW when they first came out, and didn't even question it enough to try them out until much, much later, when I realised most of that stuff is BS and what you liked has no basis on your gender (and vice-versa). And that's despite the fact that I was already a tomboy in pretty much every way.

I think we'd need clear figures about it to know for sure, although I realise that studies that separate trans people from cis people can be transphobic. But the thing is, if we don't study this kind of thing, we could have huge blind spots that will end up hurting trans people. Studying things only along the lines of men and women erases not just nonbinary people, but also the fact that many trans people's experience won't be the same as their cis peers.

When medicine started studying people of all races and not just white people, it was found out for instance, that black people are more susceptible to diabetes, and that they have a different bone density compared to white people. Had the studies only been split by gender and ignored race, that's something that could have been missed, and black people would be receiving inadequate care.

I guess what I mean is that yes, trans women are women, trans men are men, but it could be significant that they were treated as a different gender for years, and studies that take trans status into account can allow us to determine those things.
How they phrase it on the forms can be transphobic though, definitely.

[Scots Dragon]

You're not the first person to note this, either. My guess is that it's a combination of two factors: one, as RPGs allow you to play a character who is - usually without argument - treated as whatever gender you, the player, decide they are, which is obviously appealing to trans people.

Which absolutely does not describe my experiences even when I was in deep enough eggmode to consider myself male.

Absolutely not. >.>

Ignore the witch behind the curtain.

[Scarlet Knight]

{{Scrubbed}}

[JNAProductions]

This isn't a medical condition thing. This is a societal thing. A trans woman is just as much a woman as someone born in the right body, when it comes to society and how they should be treated. Sure, a trans woman is at risk for prostate cancer while an AFAB woman is not, but that's absolutely no reason to treat her any differently, unless you happen to her oncologist.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please keep conversation respectful towards trans people.

[JNAProductions]

So, anyone else have any anecdotes or data to share? As mentioned earlier, my anecdotes matched the OP's.

[Unavenger]

It seems strange to discount these accounts by arguing for AMAB/AFAB coherency.

Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth. In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

"I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
"Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."

Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.

[Scots Dragon]

Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth. In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

"I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
"Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."

Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.

Which is why it can take a long time for some trans people to even realise what their gender actually is because they deliberately channel themselves into the gender they're assigned to at birth, and suppress anything to the contrary.

But I think it's also why we're so constantly drawn to fantasy role-playing. A world in which anyone can be anything they want.

Naturally the obsession with transformational concepts, the inexplicable glee at the possibility that a character might have their physical sex changed by being brought back with a reincarnation spell, or the sudden intrigue at the possibilities of certain girdles comes pretty immediately afterwards.

[Lissou]

Why my own experience with gaming was very cis, my ex is now part of a gaming group with his nonbinary significant other, and it seems that group is entirely LGBT (my ex is bi) and trans-heavy.

[Kesnit]

In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.

A friend of mine who played a lot of MMOs told me he* almost always played female characters "because if I am going to have to look at my PC's rear end, I may as well enjoy what I see." After knowing him for several years, he came out as trans. It made me wonder if playing female PCs was her way of subconsciously being herself.

* I use male pronouns here because at the time my friend told me this, she was still living as male.


In my own experience, almost everyone I played with was male (and cis), and the couple women I've played with (plus me) are all cis.

You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.

[Tarmor]

You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.

Certainly possible. This is where terms/experience/appearance can be confusing. (Surely some people are, or consider themselves cis, then later realise they are trans.) I've always played with people who I'm certain were cis, presented themselves as if they were cis, they have given no indication of anything different, and nothing has changed since that time. There is one exception, being my now sister who is trans, but at the time "he" gamed (as a almost teenager decades ago and not for long) I'm certain even he considered himself cis, not realising anything different until many years later. (Stopping gaming had nothing to do with cis/trans.) I have had two other cis women part of my group, though the majority of players have always been male.

[Themrys]

A friend of mine who played a lot of MMOs told me he* almost always played female characters "because if I am going to have to look at my PC's rear end, I may as well enjoy what I see." After knowing him for several years, he came out as trans. It made me wonder if playing female PCs was her way of subconsciously being herself.

* I use male pronouns here because at the time my friend told me this, she was still living as male.


That "I like to ogle the character I play" thing is extremely common. If all male players who said it were secretly trans, there would be ... a much higher percentage of transpeople than there actually is.

And if all female writers of slashfic who say they write it because "one hot man is nice, two hot men are better", were secretly gay transmen, there'd be hardly any women left in some areas of the internet.

So if that friend you are talking of is sexually attracted to women, then I am pretty sure that is really all there is to it.

[Kesnit]

Certainly possible. This is where terms/experience/appearance can be confusing. (Surely some people are, or consider themselves cis, then later realise they are trans.) I've always played with people who I'm certain were cis, presented themselves as if they were cis, they have given no indication of anything different, and nothing has changed since that time. There is one exception, being my now sister who is trans, but at the time "he" gamed (as a almost teenager decades ago and not for long) I'm certain even he considered himself cis, not realising anything different until many years later. (Stopping gaming had nothing to do with cis/trans.) I have had two other cis women part of my group, though the majority of players have always been male.

I was trans the entire time I was playing with that group. When I started with them, I'd been on hormones a little over 2 years. I played with them for several months before leaving for 3 years to go to school. After graduating, I came back and played with them for another 5 years before moving away for my job. (So I guess my math was off, I only knew them for 8 years, though we're still friends and it has now been over a decade since we met.)


That "I like to ogle the character I play" thing is extremely common. If all male players who said it were secretly trans, there would be ... a much higher percentage of transpeople than there actually is.

I didn't mean to imply "any male player who plays female is actually a transwoman." (I play female characters in MMOs sometimes...) I only meant "I wonder if that was (insert friend's female name here) expressing herself before (dead name) could come out to herself."

[TaiLiu]

Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth.
Perhaps I'm just tired - I am - but I'm not super clear on what this means. I understand the concept of experiencing stereotyping based on ethnicity, as I'm sure you do. "Black people are less intelligent than white people" is an incredibly racist stereotype that Black people face because they're Black. And I understand the concept of experiencing stereotyping based on gender. "Women should be in the kitchen and out of politics" is a vile sexist stereotype that women experience because of their womanhood. But what does it mean to experience stereotyping based on your AGAB?

I think you might be saying something like, "Cis boys and trans girls are expected to act in similar ways." This does seem obvious, almost like common sense. Many people in this thread have made these kind of "common sense" assumptions, probably without even realizing it. But I would caution against assuming this, for this kind of common sense is connected to cissexism far more deeply than it is connected to reality. Sophia Burns has an article explaining the expectations foisted on her growing up (https://tinyurl.com/wodboug). Those are not the expectations foisted on cis boys.

In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

"I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
"Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."

See Burns' essay for an argument against yours. But I'd also argue that you're unintentionally taking Cox's writing out of context. The thread's about her experiences growing up with a twin brother. Both of them were AMAB, but because she was a girl and her brother was a boy, they grew up totally differently. There was no coherent social AMAB experience for them to draw on. (Other than, I suppose, being pulled out of the womb and having a doctor declare them boys. But I don't think that's what any of us mean when we talk about AMAB/AFAB being or not being coherent social categories.)

I'm ill-inclined to pull excerpts from the thread, but take again the sentence that you pulled out: "Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity," and look at the sentences surrounding it:

Class, race, sexuality, ability, immigration status, education all influence the ways in which we experience privilege so though I was assigned male at birth I would contend that I did not enjoy male privilege prior to my transition. Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity. The irony of my life is prior to transition I was called a girl and after I am often called a man.

To me it sounds like she's experiencing bullying and transmisogyny. Furthermore, it seems like her experiences come from being a trans woman, not because she was assigned male at birth.

Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.
Let's say that a trans boy is indeed shamed for liking, say, video games. And let's say that the shamers say things like, "Girls shouldn't play video games cuz those are only for boys." It's coherent to argue that he was shamed because he was AFAB. That is to say, it's logically consistent and "makes sense" for that to be true. But coherency is not necessarily the same thing as truth. But it's also coherent to argue that he was shamed because he wasn't acting like he "should" - like a stereotypical girl. I'd argue that that's probably what's happening there instead.

[Lissou]

You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.

I guess it's not impossible, I mean, you can't tell by just looking at someone. Gender identity tends to come up in my groups though, so we've mentioned being cis (not to mention the ones I have been intimate with and the ones who are close enough friends I can't imagine how it could have never come up). But yes, I should preface that with "as far as I know", I guess.