[3.5] The Ubermensch (thought experiment)

[Thurbane]

I first wrote this class up in a "casters vs. mundanes" thread.

Personally, I think this class is horribly overpowered, and not at all in line with other martial base classes, but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2". Thoughts?

Formatting is pretty quick and dirty.



THE UBERMENSCH

Hit Die: d12



BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Maneuvers
Known
Maneuvers
Readied
Stances
Known


+1
+2
+2
+2
Bonus Feat
6
5
1


+2
+3
+3
+3
Bonus Feat
7
5
2


+3
+3
+3
+3

8
5
2


+4
+4
+4
+4
Bonus Feat
9
5
2


+5
+4
+4
+4
Fly
10
6
3


+6
+5
+5
+5
Bonus Feat, Pounce
11
6
3


+7
+5
+5
+5
Freedom of Movement
12
6
3


+8
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat
13
7
3


+9
+6
+6
+6
Teleport (standard action)
14
7
4


+10
+7
+7
+7
Bonus Feat
15
8
4


+11
+7
+7
+7
Teleport (move action)
16
8
4


+12
+8
+8
+8
Bonus Feat
17
8
4


+13
+8
+8
+8
Greater teleport
18
9
4


+14
+9
+9
+9
Bonus Feat
19
9
5


+15
+9
+9
+9
Mind Blank
20
10
5


+16
+10
+10
+10
Bonus Feat
21
10
5


+17
+10
+10
+10
Teleport (swift action)
22
10
5


+18
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat
23
11
5


+19
+11
+11
+11

24
11
5


+20
+12
+12
+12
Bonus Feat
25
12
6




Class Skills
The ubermensch can choose any ten skills to be class skills.

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier (or four times this number at 1st level).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ubermensch is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

Maneuvers Readied: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

Stances Known: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

Bonus Feats: An ubermensch gets one bonus feat at 1st level, one at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on). An ubermensch must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Fly (Su): at 5th level, the ubermensch can fly as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

Pounce (Ex): when the ubermensch makes a charge, he can follow with a full attack.

Freedom of Movement (Su): at 7th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a freedom of movement effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

Teleport (Sp): at 9th once per day per point of Con bonus, the ubermensch can teleport as a spell-like-ability. CL is equal to his class level. At 11th level, activating this ability becomes a move action. At 13th level, this ability becomes the equivalent of greater teleport. At 17th level, it becomes a swift action.

Mind Blank (Su): at 15th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a mind blank effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

[NigelWalmsley]

Personally, I think this class is horribly overpowered, and not at all in line with other martial base classes, but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2".

Well, those are all different things. You could be out of line with the Fighter and still be merely "kind of okay". You're definitely not making T2. Too little utility, and while the baseline offensive abilities are solid, you still need to invest to be as effective as a caster (e.g. going into Ubercharging).

[Maat Mons]

No continuous Death Ward? No continuous True seeing? 3 dead level? And the class doesn't get full Construct immunities while retaining Con to HP? Who would play something so undepowered?

But being serious, there's nothing wrong with Tier 3. Some have argued that 3.5 would be improved by removing all the non-Tier-3 classes.

As I understand it though, moving up from Tier 3 is supposed to require being able to do a wider variety of things, and getting better at the things you do isn't supposed to factor in after that point. A lot of what you've put in seems to be on the "getting better at the things you do" side, so if you're aiming for Tier 2, it probably wasn't the right way to go.

What really might bump initiators up to Tier 2 is a few-dozen splatbooks containing new maneuvers of questionable balance. A line of Tiger Claw stances that polymorph you into ferocious beasts. A shadow Hand boost that raises slain enemies as zombies under your control. A line of Devoted Spirit stances that summon Celestial creatures to fight for you. A Devoted Spirit boost that resurrects a fallen comrade.

[Thurbane]

Good points, thank you both.

I guess this class was more just an idle musing, of how to make a martial that doesn't feel too stunted alongside full casters.

At our tables, we're a fairly low op group... so not much of an issue for us. People tend to play healbot Clerics and blasting Wizards, so most martials are somewhat viable.

[nonsi]

.
Since the class has access to all ToB disciplines, I suggest removing Fly and Teleport abilities. There are maneuvers that replicate such abilities.
Replace those with martially-oriented features from the 3 ToB classes as you see fit.

[Demidos]

When you say horribly overpowered and not in line with the other martial base classes....

Wasn't the point of the previous few sentences that people think the martial classes are weak in comparison to the caster classes, so wasn't the point of this to make something horribly overpowered compared to the base martials and equally powered with the base casters? :smallconfused:

I would say regarding the class itself it seems fine, if a bit bland. It is a high Tier 3 -- generally to reach tier 2 you need to be able to cheat through stuff in some way. Mind Blank and Flight gets you pretty far on cheating, don't get me wrong, but you can't teleport across an entire plane of existence (plane shift/greater teleport), avoid attacks as an immediate action (wings of cover), have any ability from hundreds of abilities with one spell (polymorph), or just straight up do anything you want to (Wish, Miracle, Gate, Shapechange).

If you gave them polymorph at will in addition to the other abilities it would definitely be a tier 2, IMO.

----------------------------

Lets say you're comparing your ubermensch to, say, a sorcerer. The sorcerer uses celerity (4th level spell) to go first automatically, then casts a forcecage (7th level) of the windowless cell variety. You automatically lose (LOE is blocked by the forcecage walls).

----------------------------

Lets say you're comparing it to say, a clericzilla. The cleric is a cloistered cleric (more skills, less BAB), using DMM and only one nightstick (no nightstick stacking cheating!) plus the Extra turning feat, at 8th level or so. She gets permanent freedom of movement, permanent full BAB +6 Strength and 1 hp/level (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful), and stat boosts and permanent flight (Lesser Holy Transformation).

Compared to your build, they have much fewer free feats and slightly worse saves, but get the same skill points, bab, and big stat boosts. They don't get manuvuers but I haven't used any of their spell slots except 3 4th level slots. Therefore, I'd say they're roughly comparable at low-mid levels, with your ubermensch maybe edging out the cleric slightly. However, once you reach level 17 they still have only used 3 4th level slots, and can throw out crazy powerful spells like Miracle while you are still moving and attacking. They just have more OPTIONS of powerful things they can do beyond moving and attacking. I'd say by the time the cleric gets 6th level spells the balance is pretty clearly in their favor.

[NigelWalmsley]

Lets say you're comparing your ubermensch to, say, a sorcerer. The sorcerer uses celerity (4th level spell) to go first automatically, then casts a forcecage (7th level) of the windowless cell variety. You automatically lose (LOE is blocked by the forcecage walls).

At that point they have move action Teleport. AIUI, they get the full spell, which would not be blocked. So you'd the the full cage + anchor, and they could Iron Heart Surge the anchor (which I think is a plausible use of IHS). If they don't get the full spell, it needs to say how far it goes.

[Demidos]

At that point they have move action Teleport. AIUI, they get the full spell, which would not be blocked. So you'd the the full cage + anchor, and they could Iron Heart Surge the anchor (which I think is a plausible use of IHS). If they don't get the full spell, it needs to say how far it goes.

I would be very surprised if the teleportation was "Teleport" as per the spell, since that would have a 5% chance per teleport of leaving them up to 100 miles/caster level away every time they activate their ability......



Also, an unrelated point (not pointed at you Nigel!), but the Ubermensch can't cast charm person, dominate person, or glibness (etc) to take control of the leader of a nation/group/organization, which is another point where casters can basically cheat their way through life, and there's no way for your mundane to keep up except via maxxing the skills regularly, which can also trivially be surpassed by spells like Divine Insight. Just thought of that additional point and wanted to share :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Personally, I think this class is horribly overpowered


[Swordsage with slightly higher numbers, slightly different class features, and three extra allowed schools]


At our tables, we're a fairly low op group...

...yeah that all checks out.

So, very generally speaking, there are tiers where "the same thing, but slightly higher numbers" is going to actually make you go up a tier...those are "tiers 5 and lower". Going from T4 to T3 isn't about "higher numbers", but rather "increased options". Once you hit T4, you can already be good at something to contribute sometimes; raising your tier beyond that point is getting good enough to contribute at more than one thing.

This...is a ramped-up swordsage.

You've replaced Medium BAB with Full BAB (avg +3 points to-hit, avg +0.55 attacks per full attack), d12s instead of d8s (avg +2 HP/HD), and bad Fort with Good (avg +3.85). You've halved the number of class skills they can get in exchange for letting them pick any skills they want to be class skills...let's call that an even trade.

You've given them the ability to pick from all nine schools instead of just six, that's a definite improvement. Getting to pick your 25 known from up to 207 possibilities instead of just 140 is pretty cool. It's kinda actually in the same ballpark now as core-only Sorcerer like that (where Sorcerer gets to pick their 43 known from 375 possibilities).

You've removed all the Swordsage-specific class features and exchanged them for 11 bonus feats. Honestly, this is probably a more or less equivalent exchange based on what was given up, so let's look at what's left: Pounce (less useful on a maneuver class, but still highly useful), 60 ft fly speed w/ average maneuverability, self-only FoM effect, self-only Mind Blank, limited-use Teleport with gradually reduced casting time. All of these are pretty generic staples of "things you could staple to an existing noncaster class to make it better", but let's be real: these are two defensive upgrades and three mobility upgrades. These aren't here because they greatly expand the swordsage's options, or make something the swordsage already does well overpowered; these are here to save the swordsage from spending money to purchase these things directly, because having at least one of these defenses, and having at least one of these mobility enhancers, is basically mandatory outside of low-op.

...let's take a step back, and compare with an alternative to tiers: the Niche System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System). Let's assume that Ubermensch has the best scores of Crusader, Expert, Fighter, Swordsage, and Warblade in each category. Let's look at how many 1s/2s/3s/4s the Ubermensch would get, and then compare it to some Tier 2 classes as defined by that recent "tier redefined" thread.



Class
Total Score
1s
2s
3s
4s


Adventurer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22584817&postcount=34)
32
8
3
6
0


Ubermensch
44
3
4
7
3










Beguiler
37
6
2
9
0


Favored Soul
32
5
9
3
0


Psion
36
4
7
6
0


Sorcerer
29
7
8
2
0


Urban Druid
37
0
14
3
0



This ranking system doesn't represent how well every build would do in those categories, but rather how employing such a class built to fill that role will perform against other classes built for the same. A sorcerer build for a particular role will be at least passable, but more likely they'll be quite competent at their chosen role, or maybe even flat-out broken. If you took a psion and you built it for melee combat...competent tanking, passable damage, top-tier mobility, they'll do fine. But Ubermensch...it's gonna be top-tier at those same three things, but for most things you could aim for, you're more likely to be merely passable rather than competent...and there's a few categories where you'll be completely useless, the most relevant of which is probably trapfinding (as far as "things noncasters contribute" goes). And honestly, even that's being a little unfair in Ubermensch's favor; I think we can all agree that Crusader isn't a top-tier Tank because of its maneuvers instead of its class features.

Just going by how many categories they get at each Niche Tier, Ubermensch is still looking solidly Tier 2 - there's just not enough that it can be broken or competent at, and there's still a few roles it flat-out can't fill, whereas those T2 classes (as decided by the community) can all at least be built to be passable in any category. That's kinda to be expected, though; this is a Swordsage with 50% more maneuver options (but not any more maneuvers known/readied than normal), and 50% more class features (...sort of), and 50% more HP. Yes, it's absolutely a better swordsage...but it's not that much better.

(I included a link to my proposed Adventurer class in an older thread about tiers and stuff. Adventurer is literally just Factotum, Swordsage, and Warblade stapled together wholesale...and it's Niche Ranking Totals are looking a lot more like the T2 ballpark. But even that's probably not T2? A handful of spells is nice, a huge class skill list is nice, and it gets more known/readied maneuvers/stances, and class features to support things, but like...it's still probably not breaking the game at any particular thing, it's probably just gonna be fairly competent at a handful of them.)

[noob]

I first wrote this class up in a "casters vs. mundanes" thread.

Personally, I think this class is horribly overpowered, and not at all in line with other martial base classes, but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2". Thoughts?

Formatting is pretty quick and dirty.



THE UBERMENSCH

Hit Die: d12



BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Maneuvers
Known
Maneuvers
Readied
Stances
Known


+1
+2
+2
+2
Bonus Feat
6
5
1


+2
+3
+3
+3
Bonus Feat
7
5
2


+3
+3
+3
+3

8
5
2


+4
+4
+4
+4
Bonus Feat
9
5
2


+5
+4
+4
+4
Fly
10
6
3


+6
+5
+5
+5
Bonus Feat, Pounce
11
6
3


+7
+5
+5
+5
Freedom of Movement
12
6
3


+8
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat
13
7
3


+9
+6
+6
+6
Teleport (standard action)
14
7
4


+10
+7
+7
+7
Bonus Feat
15
8
4


+11
+7
+7
+7

16
8
4


+12
+8
+8
+8
Bonus Feat
17
8
4


+13
+8
+8
+8
Teleport (move action)
18
9
4


+14
+9
+9
+9
Bonus Feat
19
9
5


+15
+9
+9
+9
Mind Blank
20
10
5


+16
+10
+10
+10
Bonus Feat
21
10
5


+17
+10
+10
+10
Teleport (swift action)
22
10
5


+18
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat
23
11
5


+19
+11
+11
+11

24
11
5


+20
+12
+12
+12
Bonus Feat
25
12
6




Class Skills
The ubermensch can choose any ten skills to be class skills.

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier (or four times this number at 1st level).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ubermensch is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

Maneuvers Readied: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

Stances Known: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

Bonus Feats: An ubermensch gets one bonus feat at 1st level, one at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on). An ubermensch must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Fly (Su): at 5th level, the ubermensch can fly as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

Pounce (Ex): when the ubermensch makes a charge, he can follow with a full attack.

Freedom of Movement (Su): at 7th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a freedom of movement effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

Teleport (Sp): at 9th once per day per point of Con bonus, the ubermensch can teleport as a spell-like-ability. CL is equal to his class level. At 13th level, activating this ability becomes a move action. At 17th level, it becomes a swift action.

Mind Blank (Su): at 15th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a mind blank effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).


Fast movement and the ability to kill things easily does not makes a character able to create civilisations from ice or allows to create planets.
So it is good at two things (killing stuff you know the position of and ferrying stuff) but at best average to do other things (for example it is not particularly good at finding people)

[NigelWalmsley]

I would be very surprised if the teleportation was "Teleport" as per the spell, since that would have a 5% chance per teleport of leaving them up to 100 miles/caster level away every time they activate their ability......

I was assuming that was an oversight and/or that it was supposed to be short hand for the "Teleport but without the inaccuracy clause" that a lot of people seem to assume. Otherwise it needs to define a bunch of stuff it doesn't. How far does it go? What blocks it? What if you try to teleport into a space you can't go into? I don't know if OP is reading the thread, but I think "basically Teleport" is probably the intended starting point of the ability.


the Ubermensch can't cast charm person, dominate person, or glibness (etc) to take control of the leader of a nation/group/organization

That's true, but you can build Sorcerers or Psions that can't do that and are still T2. Yes, a Sorcerer that only takes very good combat spells is leaving something on the table, but it's still definitely T2. The distinction between T2 and T3 is that you can make a character that has abilities on-par with a Wizard or Cleric with only minimal optimization.


...let's take a step back, and compare with an alternative to tiers: the Niche System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System).

I disagree. I think the niche ranking system is a bad tool for this kind of analysis for two reasons.

First, not all niches are created equal. D&D has default assumptions about the game that are heavily biased towards combat. It's true that "Face" and "DPS" are both niches, but the notion that they're equally important is simply absurd. A typical D&D campaign will involve spending more time on combat than on everything else put together, and combat is much less forgiving of mechanical inadequacy. DMs are much more amenable to "you the player made a compelling argument and the king agrees with you" than they are "you the player know a lot about stabbing people so the orc dies". That's not to say that non-combat abilities are irrelevant, having them is definitely what puts T1 and T2 classes on top, but if you had a class that was as good in a fight as a Wizard, I think you could make a pretty reasonable case that that class deserved to be at least T2.

Second, having different niches in combat isn't necessarily relevant. If you're good enough at DPS that you can solve all of your combat encounters at a T2 level by DPS-ing them to death, you belong in T2. It doesn't matter if you can't summon, or tank, or heal, or buff, because the game doesn't have "summoning encounters" or "buffing encounters", it just has encounters. And if you can solve all by stabbing them to death, they're just as solved as if you solved some by stabbing and some by summoning and some by buffing.

Ultimately, if you score whatever the highest score is on a reasonably good thing to do in combat (like "BFC" or "have minions" or "kill people"), I think you could make a pretty strong case for T2 without anything else. The reason a lot of classes fall short is that they take too much relative optimization to be effective, and I suspect that this is true for this guy as well. Warblades could already get most of the good maneuvers, and they still fell behind at mid and high levels (I actually think your Warblade//Swordsage//Factotum or even a Warblade//Factotum would be T2, as Factotum's extra actions address the combat issues handily and the spells provide enough utility to not have to sit in the corner every time the combat music isn't playing).

[noob]

I was assuming that was an oversight and/or that it was supposed to be short hand for the "Teleport but without the inaccuracy clause" that a lot of people seem to assume. Otherwise it needs to define a bunch of stuff it doesn't. How far does it go? What blocks it? What if you try to teleport into a space you can't go into? I don't know if OP is reading the thread, but I think "basically Teleport" is probably the intended starting point of the ability.



That's true, but you can build Sorcerers or Psions that can't do that and are still T2. Yes, a Sorcerer that only takes very good combat spells is leaving something on the table, but it's still definitely T2. The distinction between T2 and T3 is that you can make a character that has abilities on-par with a Wizard or Cleric with only minimal optimization.



I disagree. I think the niche ranking system is a bad tool for this kind of analysis for two reasons.

First, not all niches are created equal. D&D has default assumptions about the game that are heavily biased towards combat. It's true that "Face" and "DPS" are both niches, but the notion that they're equally important is simply absurd. A typical D&D campaign will involve spending more time on combat than on everything else put together, and combat is much less forgiving of mechanical inadequacy. DMs are much more amenable to "you the player made a compelling argument and the king agrees with you" than they are "you the player know a lot about stabbing people so the orc dies". That's not to say that non-combat abilities are irrelevant, having them is definitely what puts T1 and T2 classes on top, but if you had a class that was as good in a fight as a Wizard, I think you could make a pretty reasonable case that that class deserved to be at least T2.

Second, having different niches in combat isn't necessarily relevant. If you're good enough at DPS that you can solve all of your combat encounters at a T2 level by DPS-ing them to death, you belong in T2. It doesn't matter if you can't summon, or tank, or heal, or buff, because the game doesn't have "summoning encounters" or "buffing encounters", it just has encounters. And if you can solve all by stabbing them to death, they're just as solved as if you solved some by stabbing and some by summoning and some by buffing.

Ultimately, if you score whatever the highest score is on a reasonably good thing to do in combat (like "BFC" or "have minions" or "kill people"), I think you could make a pretty strong case for T2 without anything else. The reason a lot of classes fall short is that they take too much relative optimization to be effective, and I suspect that this is true for this guy as well. Warblades could already get most of the good maneuvers, and they still fell behind at mid and high levels (I actually think your Warblade//Swordsage//Factotum or even a Warblade//Factotum would be T2, as Factotum's extra actions address the combat issues handily and the spells provide enough utility to not have to sit in the corner every time the combat music isn't playing).

Except that this class is very very far from being able to solve all the fights with damage.
It would need stuff like "hits everything in the multiverse" and "deals true damage that can not be countered in any way" and "no matter how much hit points a target have you reduce their hit points to minus infinity and that necessarily defeat them"
Even with those it would still lack behind in fighting ability because it would also need "knows every opponent that needs to be killed no matter where they are"(else they would not know when the fight started and would get rocket tagged to death)
They would also need "retroactive existence: they suddenly retroactively started their existence before the start of the multiverse" or else they would get defeated by time travelling shenanigans(some of them are quite beyond comprehension and involves weird stuff like the far realms).
With all that I can conceive a fighting class to be tier 2 but anything less and it stops being tier 2.

[AvatarVecna]

I disagree. I think the niche ranking system is a bad tool for this kind of analysis for two reasons.

You're missing the point of my analysis. I'm not saying this is a bad class; certainly, it's subjectively a better Swordsage (and while I think it's objectively better, I must admit that it's possible somebody else might place more value on the sacrificed class features than I do, and place less value on the new features than I do). But "better than T3" doesn't make you T2.

"Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

Even if we're taking this as more descriptive of classes that currently fall into T2 than a "requirement" of a class wanting to be elevated to T2, we have to acknowledge that Ubermensch just isn't that substantially different from the T3 class it's semi-based on. T2, at least the T2s that exist, can optimize aiming for any role they want to fill, and can do at least an okay job at it, but probably do a great job, and just maybe are borderline broken. At the end of the day...Ubermensch is still basically just a combat monster that can maybe have a side gimmick from a select pool of possible gimmicks. The roles it's capable of filling haven't changed so drastically that it's got the theoretical flexibility of a sorcerer, nor the power a focused sorcerer would have in any particular field; a gishing sorcerer build will compete with Ubermensch in its own niche, but the sorcerer could also just be basically useless in combat, but be an absolute god at the subtle manipulation of people in social situations through use of skills and spells. High numbers isn't enough to have a high tier, and Ubermensch doesn't even have numbers all that high.

Case in point:


That's true, but you can build Sorcerers or Psions that can't do that and are still T2. Yes, a Sorcerer that only takes very good combat spells is leaving something on the table, but it's still definitely T2. The distinction between T2 and T3 is that you can make a character that has abilities on-par with a Wizard or Cleric with only minimal optimization.

Ubermensch does not do this thing you've described here. It's a little more flexible within its combat role, but it just doesn't compare to the flexibility a sorcerer has. Ubermensch has 25 choices to make from 207 options; Core-only Sorcerer has 43 choices to make from 375 options. Even ignoring how much gets opened up by adding splatbooks, even if you want to pretend that maneuvers and spells of equal level are equally useful, sorcerer just gets so many more option...and sorcerer spells known can be more than just combat-oriented. Maneuvers have to be combat-oriented. Even if we assume the tier definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive, that just means that sorcerer is the measuring stick by which the others are determined to be comparable or not...and Ubermensch is definitely not.


T1: You can be everything.
T2: You can be anything.
T3: You can be a couple of several specific things.
T4: You can be one of a couple specific things.
T5: You can maybe be this one specific thing.
T6: You can't be anything.

Ubermensch doesn't have the flexibility to be anything, nor does it have the absolute power in enough roles to claim that it can be broken at one of a handful of things. It's got a few more options than Swordsage had, but that's it really. Devoted Spirit lets it be passable at healing; White Raven makes it a better party support than it was before, but not significantly better; Iron Heart helps it get better at its main schtick of frontlining, but it was great already and the extra options there aren't enough to make it broken the way a sorcerer or wizard could be if they devoted themselves to competing with you in this regard. Feats allow for some additional flexibility in some respects (primarily making you better at what you were already good at, but it also opens up the possibility of making a reachmonster lockdown build). The changes to skills let it be a know-it-all or a party face to a degree, but pure ranks isn't enough without class features supporting it - one of many reasons why Factotum is better than Expert. And Ubermensch just...doesn't get those - not the way Factotum does, or Bard does, or even Rogue does. "Ranks aren't enough" is the exact reason why this class that can take any skills still can't be a good trapmonkey.

[NigelWalmsley]

Except that this class is very very far from being able to solve all the fights with damage.

Yes, that's why I don't think it is T2.


It would need stuff like "hits everything in the multiverse" and "deals true damage that can not be countered in any way" and "no matter how much hit points a target have you reduce their hit points to minus infinity and that necessarily defeat them"

No. You do not need to deal with crazy TO nonsense to be T2. If you are merely able to keep up with Dread Necromancers, Favored Souls, and Sorcerers at equivalent levels of practical optimization, that's fine. At the level of optimization where abilities like that become necessary, your class does not matter. You can be a Commoner who bought a Candle of Invocation and win because you happen to be able to name bigger numbers than the rest of the table.


But "better than T3" doesn't make you T2.

Again, I didn't say it was. The extra options it gets relative to a Warblade don't really fix the problems the Warblade has. I'm saying that the analysis isn't useful, not that the conclusions are wrong. Which is maybe not the most compelling point, but that's the nature of internet arguments. In my defense, I would say that if your goal is to make new things, having an accurate understanding of the power of existing things is a necessary prerequisite.


T2, at least the T2s that exist, can optimize aiming for any role they want to fill, and can do at least an okay job at it, but probably do a great job, and just maybe are borderline broken.

But for the most part, once they've done that, they aren't very effective at other roles. A Sorcerer that has built for BFC is still T2, but sucks at blasting (probably, depending on the exact build, but he definitely sucks at something). It therefore follows that a class with access to that build and not others would be T2 as well. The problem this class has is that it doesn't really address the problems ToB martials have. You can already get pretty much all the good maneuvers as a Warblade, but those mostly give in-combat utility and survivability, so you still need to build for damage output.

[nonsi]

.
I think people here are missing the point.
The OP started by stating ", but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2" (no question here), but the thread is now all about the differences between T2 and T3. There are plenty of discussions where this difference is explained to great detail.
The OP concluded by saying "I guess this class was more just an idle musing", so if to be productive, then what we're left here with is the opportunity to make the best out of this class.
I tried to make a suggestion w/o dragging the conversation to my personal taste, but rather point to a general direction to that's worth while exploring. Others could do the same and maybe we'll end up with enough suggestions to cook something useful here.

Just a thought.

[AvatarVecna]

Again, I didn't say it was. The extra options it gets relative to a Warblade don't really fix the problems the Warblade has. I'm saying that the analysis isn't useful, not that the conclusions are wrong. Which is maybe not the most compelling point, but that's the nature of internet arguments. In my defense, I would say that if your goal is to make new things, having an accurate understanding of the power of existing things is a necessary prerequisite.

So just to be clear, when you said you disagreed with my post, what you actually meant was that you agreed with my post, except for the part you misunderstood? Because this right here:


But for the most part, once they've done that, they aren't very effective at other roles. A Sorcerer that has built for BFC is still T2, but sucks at blasting (probably, depending on the exact build, but he definitely sucks at something). It therefore follows that a class with access to that build and not others would be T2 as well.

...that right there is kinda the whole point of the Niche System. It's not saying "these are the several things that ever sorcerer/psion/wilder/whatever is going to be perfect at no matter how you build them", it's saying "a sorcerer/psion/wilder/whatever can be anything if they aim for it" (at least for the T2s). A sorcerer that puts all their resources into being a super-gish could very well end up with the exact same mechanics as a fighter, but while that particular build ended up T4 for both of them (competent at one thing but basically useless for anything else), sorcerer as a class is T2 while Fighter in general is T5 because the Fighter has to work to be competent at that one thing while sorcerer could've put that effort in any number of directions and would've been great.

Using the Niche System to compare a homebrew class to existing classes to guess at its Tier isn't as awful as your reply made it out to be.


.I think people here are missing the point.
The OP started by stating ", but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2" (no question here), but the thread is now all about the differences between T2 and T3. There are plenty of discussions where this difference is explained to great detail.

There are indeed plenty of discussions on the internet about the tiers in general. However, this thread opened with this:


Personally, I think this class is horribly overpowered, and not at all in line with other martial base classes, but most said it still wound't make it to "tier 2". Thoughts?

Here's that reorganized a bit, to make the ensuing argument easier to understand:


1) I think this class is horribly overpowered compared to existing martials
2) Lots of people said it wasn't good enough to be T2, what are your thoughts on that?

"2)" is why this thread is basically nothing but a discussion of the difference between T3 and T2 - a question about our opinion regarding this class' tier was asked, and the question amounts to "is what this changes about swordsage/warblade/crusader doing enough to take swordsage/warblade/crusader from T3 to T2", so of course people are answering the question that was directly asked by the OP rather than...I'm sorry, what exactly were you expecting people to discuss, given that this is the one thing the OP directly asked us our opinion about? Your first post seems to imply that you read that question as asking "what would you change about this class?" which...I dunno, seems like a weird way to read that question to me.

[NigelWalmsley]

So just to be clear, when you said you disagreed with my post, what you actually meant was that you agreed with my post,

I thought it was pretty obvious that what I disagreed with was the part where you suggested that we use the niche ranking system, what with me following up "I disagree" with a detailed explanation of my problems with the Niche Ranking system being used in this context, and also with my first post in this thread saying that the class isn't T2.


It's not saying "these are the several things that ever sorcerer/psion/wilder/whatever is going to be perfect at no matter how you build them", it's saying "a sorcerer/psion/wilder/whatever can be anything if they aim for it" (at least for the T2s).

It seems like you're misunderstanding my point. I'm saying it doesn't matter how many ways you can build the character, it matters how effective the character is when you build them in the ways you can build them. A BFC-spec'd Sorcerer is good. But that goodness has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Sorcerer class can also spec into single target save-or-dies, or minionmancy, or Mailmaning. If you took away all those other tools, it would be exactly as good, because it doesn't have to use them to be good. Comparing aggregate niche rankings isn't useful. Comparing the highest niche ranking would be kind of useful, but even then you run into the fundamental reality that some niches are just more relevant than others. A class that's got a 1 as a Face is, else equal, likely to be less valuable than one with a 2 in BFC.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for all the additional feedback. I hadn't checked the thread for a while, so there's a bit to digest.

For the moment, I've tweaked the teleport ability, and will respond to other replies as I get the chance.

[NigelWalmsley]

I might tweak the Teleport ability so it's "Teleport or Dimension Door" prior to upgrading to Greater Teleport. The utility of having it as a move action with imperfect accuracy is limited.