Padlock or Sorlockadin?

[OgataiKhan]

Hello!

I'm building a new character, and the intention was to make a Sorcadin with a Hexblade 1 dip for SADness. Yes, I know, very original, but I've never played one and this particular build sounds fun to me.

It's going to be an Aasimar Oath of Conquest build, heavily based on frightening the enemies to crowd-control them.
I decided to go Paladin 13 instead of the usual Paladin 7 because I want the frighten immunity aura, Find Greater Steed, and the consistent damage provided by Improved Divine Smite. Plus, Paladin 9 is the quickest way to access the Fear spell which is a crucial part of the build.

One level goes to Hexblade, and I was planning on putting the remaining 6 in Shadow Sorcerer (I don't need Divine Soul because, as a member of the Orzhov guild, I already have access to Guidance and Spirit Guardians and I have Spiritual Weapon as an Oath spell).
This gives me more spell slots, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall for Find Greater Steed, and sorcery points to quicken Darkness on turn 1 for advantage or to cast subtle spells to avoid being counterspelled.

But then I started asking myself whether it would be more beneficial to go Paladin 13/Hexblade 7 instead.
This gives me, among other things, Agonising Blast for a better ranged option, Polymorph (through Sculptor of Flesh) for healing, Dimension Door for escaping when I get swallowed by a monster, Sickening Radiance to combo with our Bard's Forcecage and one-shot bosses, and most importantly Eldritch Smite to use on top of my regular smites for great nova damage.

This way I miss out on two level 5 and one level 6 slots but two of my level 4 slots will recharge on a short rest, which will make it easier to cast Find Greater Steed in the evening if needed and Death Ward before the end of a long rest to have it active for the day.

On the other hand, I'll be unable to upcast Spirit Guardians with a 5th or 6th level slot.

I'm also worried about missing out on Feather Fall and Absorb Elements, but our Bard may help me with the former.

I do know that we likely won't play much if at all at 20th level, but I still like planning for the future and I get the impression that Warlock levels help me more here. What do you think?

[moonfly7]

Hello!

I'm building a new character, and the intention was to make a Sorcadin with a Hexblade 1 dip for SADness. Yes, I know, very original, but I've never played one and this particular build sounds fun to me.

It's going to be an Aasimar Oath of Conquest build, heavily based on frightening the enemies to crowd-control them.
I decided to go Paladin 13 instead of the usual Paladin 7 because I want the frighten immunity aura, Find Greater Steed, and the consistent damage provided by Improved Divine Smite. Plus, Paladin 9 is the quickest way to access the Fear spell which is a crucial part of the build.

One level goes to Hexblade, and I was planning on putting the remaining 6 in Shadow Sorcerer (I don't need Divine Soul because, as a member of the Orzhov guild, I already have access to Guidance and Spirit Guardians and I have Spiritual Weapon as an Oath spell).
This gives me more spell slots, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall for Find Greater Steed, and sorcery points to quicken Darkness on turn 1 for advantage or to cast subtle spells to avoid being counterspelled.

But then I started asking myself whether it would be more beneficial to go Paladin 13/Hexblade 7 instead.
This gives me, among other things, Agonising Blast for a better ranged option, Polymorph (through Sculptor of Flesh) for healing, Dimension Door for escaping when I get swallowed by a monster, Sickening Radiance to combo with our Bard's Forcecage and one-shot bosses, and most importantly Eldritch Smite to use on top of my regular smites for great nova damage.

This way I miss out on two level 5 and one level 6 slots but two of my level 4 slots will recharge on a short rest, which will make it easier to cast Find Greater Steed in the evening if needed and Death Ward before the end of a long rest to have it active for the day.

On the other hand, I'll be unable to upcast Spirit Guardians with a 5th or 6th level slot.

I'm also worried about missing out on Feather Fall and Absorb Elements, but our Bard may help me with the former.

I do know that we likely won't play much if at all at 20th level, but I still like planning for the future and I get the impression that Warlock levels help me more here. What do you think?

I am actually currently building a "nightmare" kalashtar conquest paladin/ rogue or warlock and have some ideas you might like.
For one, going hexblade is probably more efficient, but if you want to be more original get up to at least level 3 in warlock and take shadow blade as a 2nd level spell. Now you have a 2d8 psychic damage weapon you can smite with that still allows you to wield a shield. Although it does take up concentration. Thematically it works pretty well, and grants advantage while in darkness, plus then you can take devils site and use your paladins aura to freeze your foes in the darkness spell and wail on them. Just a thought.

[OgataiKhan]

I am actually currently building a "nightmare" kalashtar conquest paladin/ rogue or warlock and have some ideas you might like.
For one, going hexblade is probably more efficient, but if you want to be more original get up to at least level 3 in warlock and take shadow blade as a 2nd level spell. Now you have a 2d8 psychic damage weapon you can smite with that still allows you to wield a shield. Although it does take up concentration. Thematically it works pretty well, and grants advantage while in darkness, plus then you can take devils site and use your paladins aura to freeze your foes in the darkness spell and wail on them. Just a thought.

I love Shadow Blade, but unfortunately it doesn't work with Hex Warrior so it would require a high Str or Dex, and I have neither.

[Corran]

The biggest benefit the sorcerer levels specifically add to a conquest paladin, is making the fear spell party friendly. But if you are going with 10 or more paladin levels already, getting aura of courage mitigates the value that you'll gain out of this multiclass (and by a lot if your DM rules favorably for you on how aura of courage interacts with fear effects). Now, if you add on top of that that you plan for 13 paladin levels, and that you intend to take at least one level in warlock, the benefits of multiclassing to a sorcerer pale in comparison to what the higher paladin levels can give you. I'd still prefer taking sorcerer levels instead of more levels in warlock (after a 1, or maybe a 2 level dip; depending on how much you see your character relying on ranged attacks), cause there is some synergy between metamagic, spells and the channel divinity that I value, but going for the high level paladin features is your best bet at that point imo.

[OgataiKhan]

and by a lot if your DM rules favorably for you on how aura of courage interacts with fear effects

What do you mean by this? Doesn't the aura simply make me and my party immune to the frightened condition?


going for the high level paladin features is your best bet at that point imo.

Which features do you have in mind specifically? I can't get my capstone, so the only relevant feature I can think of that more Paladin levels would give me is the larger range on my auras, which is certainly far less relevant than things like Counterspell and additional spell slots.

[Corran]

What do you mean by this? Doesn't the aura simply make me and my party immune to the frightened condition?
As I understand it there is some debate over the interaction of the aura with pre existing frightened conditions. For example, say you cast the fear spell, and an ally of yours is caught in the effect, but that ally is more than 10' away from you at the moment of the cast, so at this moment the ally does not benefit from aura of courage. But say that you also move closer to that ally during that turn, so now your frightened ally is within the radius of your aura of courage. What happens? Does aura of courage suppress the frightened condition on your ally while they are inside the aura? Does it remove it completely? Or does it do nothing at all? How you'll rule it at your table influences a great deal what you'll get out of the sorcerer levels (cause the ability to make the fear spell ignore or even conditionally ignore friedlies, is very important to a conquest paly imo).



Which features do you have in mind specifically? I can't get my capstone, so the only relevant feature I can think of that more Paladin levels would give me is the larger range on my auras, which is certainly far less relevant than things like Counterspell and additional spell slots.
I value the auras' extension more than counterspell and some additional spell slots. The auras aren't there just for their obvious defensive benefits. Aura of protection aside, increasing the radius of your aura of conquest and your aura of courage benefits very much the way a conquest paladin plays. Lockdown over a 30' radius and party friendly fear for up to 30' away from you is a very big deal and I don't think getting counterspell (you already have mobility and nova to ue against casters; counterspell is still very nice, but it has diminishing returns on a mobile melee nova build) or some extra spell slots with which you'll upcast something or smite beats that. The level 15 oath feature is very good too. And then there's 5th level spells. Some decent and a couple of great spells in there (some of which -eg circle of power- could be of great use against fear immune enemies). But yeah, for me the big prize is the extension of the auras. And when you are only 5 levels away from that, I don't see anything else more desirable that a 5 level dip (which could potentially mean that you go up to lvl 7 in another class) would get me.

[OgataiKhan]

As I understand it there is some debate over the interaction of the aura with pre existing frightened conditions. For example, say you cast the fear spell, and an ally of yours is caught in the effect, but that ally is more than 10' away from you at the moment of the cast, so at this moment the ally does not benefit from aura of courage. But say that you also move closer to that ally during that turn, so now your frightened ally is within the radius of your aura of courage. What happens? Does aura of courage suppress the frightened condition on your ally while they are inside the aura? Does it remove it completely? Or does it do nothing at all? How you'll rule it at your table influences a great deal what you'll get out of the sorcerer levels (cause the ability to make the fear spell ignore or even conditionally ignore friedlies, is very important to a conquest paly imo).

I see, I didn't consider that aspect.



I value the auras' extension more than counterspell and some additional spell slots. The auras aren't there just for their obvious defensive benefits. Aura of protection aside, increasing the radius of your aura of conquest and your aura of courage benefits very much the way a conquest paladin plays. Lockdown over a 30' radius and party friendly fear for up to 30' away from you is a very big deal and I don't think getting counterspell (you already have mobility and nova to ue against casters; counterspell is still very nice, but it has diminishing returns on a mobile melee nova build) or some extra spell slots with which you'll upcast something or smite beats that. The level 15 oath feature is very good too. And then there's 5th level spells. Some decent and a couple of great spells in there (some of which -eg circle of power- could be of great use against fear immune enemies). But yeah, for me the big prize is the extension of the auras. And when you are only 5 levels away from that, I don't see anything else more desirable that a 5 level dip (which could potentially mean that you go up to lvl 7 in another class) would get me.

I see your point, but ultimately while I find the aura improvement useful I don't think it's worth as many as 5 levels, and I consider the damage dealt by the level 15 feature mostly irrelevant at high levels.
Thank you for your answer though, it's an option I hadn't considered.

[paladinn]

I'm a yuuuuge sorlocadin fan. I typically recommend going with a level of paladin for armor and hp, 2 levels of hexblade for SADness and A-blast, 5+ levels of paladin for whatever auras, then spend the rest in sorcerer for spells and smite-fuel.

[Chad.e.clark]

I played a Levistus Tiefling that made it to 6DivineSoul/2Hexblade, with Twin and Extend Metamagic. I had the intention of being in melee with Spirit Guardians and Twinning Booming Blade, but it never materialized that way as we ended up playing a more mobile/ranged party since I was the most Tanky at AC18.

Twinning Ray of Frost, Toll the Dead, and Guiding Bolt were fun, as well as twinning Haste at Sorceror 5. One problem was that I had so many great Concentration spells that would be useful ( off the top of my head I know I had Bless, Haste, and Spirit Guardians).

[ravenkith]

I am currently playing a Sorlockadin in progress. I will say this, early levels are pretty tough.

I knew we were playing descent to avernus, and while I don't know much about that adventure, I felt like going to hell would kind of limit the characters options as far as getting hold of magic items for custom builds, and I knew that we were already going to have a cleric and another tank in the party, so, in particular, demand for heavy armor and magic weapons was going to be high (we also have two rogues).

I asked for and got permission to play a WGTE warforged, and went Paladin 1/Warlock (Hexblade) 1 for my start. As a WGTE warforged, I have resistance to poison damage, advantage on poison saves, no need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep, and when I rest I am still alert. I also have built-in scalable armor that will level up with me as I go, thanks to being tied to my proficiency bonus.

At level one I had 16+Proficiency Bonus (18) AC from armor, a +2 from a Shield. At level 2 I gained the ability to cast shield as a reaction, bumping my AC to 25 as needed. This increased low-level survivability immensely. There were multiple times I found my character holding a door against things like imps and watching them whiff or deal next to no damage because of my defensive combination of abilities.

I made sure to get Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, Armor of Agathys and Shield from Warlock. This gave me a much-needed reliable ranged attack, and gave me Charisma to melee and Charisma to ranged. Between this and my in-built AC, I was able to reduce the MAD down to just Charisma and Constitution. (AOA is ultimately for later).

At level 3 I took my second Warlock level and picked up the invocations Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast.

We have since fought our way up to level 5, and are now in Avernus as of the end of our last adventure. I have sunk all of my new levels to this point into Paladin, making me a Warlock (Hexblade 2)/Paladin (Oath of the Ancients 3).

At the moment, my booming blade and eldritch blast have leveled, meaning that I can 2x 1d10 + CHA force beams, or 1x 1d8 Silvered +1d8 Thunder + CHA Mod + 2d8 Thunder (if moves) as my base damage. It's not a lot of damage, but these use NO resources. I also am capable of upping my damage output though smite or buffs, but do it sparingly.

Right now I have a 5 1st level spell slots, two of which regen on a short rest (thanks to warlock)

My current plan is to get Paladin as my next level (at 6) and grab warcaster as my feat, then take Warlock 3 at level 7.

Warlock three I will go pact of the blade and likely trade out Devil's sight for improved pact weapon. This means that I can summon any weapon as my hex blade/pact weapon, and they will all be +1 magical weapons, meaning fiendish resistance to weapon attacks becomes something I no longer have to worry about, and I can adapt my chosen weapon to the circumstance we are in (e.g. do I need reach this round?) regardless of what resources are or are not available in the campaign.

This also means that any pact weapon I am using becomes my arcane focus, meaning that I am now free to cast either warlock spells or paladin spells (my shield is my holy symbol) while keeping my weapon and shield in my hands at pretty much all times.


I will have 3 first level and two second level spell slots. The 2 2nd level slots regen on a short rest.

After this, I plan to progress (Paladin 4/Warlock 3) as follows:
8th: Paladin 5th (Extra Attack, 2nd Level spells)
9th Paladin 6th (CHA to saves)
10th Paladin 7th (Resistance to Damage from Spells)
11th Sorceror (Shadow Mage) 1 (Eyes of the Dark, Strength of the Grave)
12th Sorceror 2 Font of Magic, Metamagic - note the synergy between Warlock 2nd level slots and Metamagic points with short rests et al.
13th Sorceror 3 Spell slots: 4 1st, 5 2nd (2 regen on short rest), 3 3rd.
14th Sorceror 4 (ASI or Feat, 4th level slot)
15th Sorceror 5
16th Sorceror 6 (Hound of Ill Omen)
17th Sorceror 7
18th Sorceror 8 (ASI or Feat/Slots 4/5/3/3/2/1 6th)
19th Sorceror 9 (5th level Sorc spells known)
20th Sorceror 10 (New Metamagic/ 7th level spell slot)

Now a lot of people aren't going to like this set up, and for fair reason.

Complaining about missing out on the level 20 sorc capstone isn't one of them, however, as you actually basically get this feature (with clever spell management of your warlock slots) at basically level 12-14 (you can turn those two 2nd level warlock spells into extra metamagic points on a short rest at that level before you rest, and get those spell slots right back afterward).

A fair criticism is that the build doesn't gain access to any spell levels above level 5 - this is 100% true, but this build ISN'T meant to be a primary caster: it's a swiss army knife, giving access to some basic cleric healing functions, the ability to nova in melee (smite) or at range (EB cheese) and some emergency casting options for battlefield control, and being able to execute multiple of these functions in a single turn while potentially being able to lock down an enemy or two (especially depending on how you spend your ASIs/feats).

The build is very self sufficient, and with the right buff usage, could be extremely hard to kill. Armor of Agathys, for example, could yield 35 extra hit points cast out of your 7th level spell slot, for instance, which can help make up for the normal sorceror squishyness.

Add in your relatively high AC (24 WITHOUT buffs by the end), and your various resistances (magic resistance across the board, poison resist, and forget not absorb elements!), and your defenses will be pretty stout.

Even if you do go down, you have your last ditch CHA save vs death as a final get out of jail free card, which, given that you are proficient in CHA saves and get to add the MOD to your save twice, should (in theory at least) make for a pretty beefy roll.

While it doesn't rely on any magic items, it could probably benefit from anything except a suit of magic armor (shrug).

The shtick here is that, with 10 metamagic points per long rest (and the ability to regenerate 4 metamagic points on short rests), you can quicken, twin or heighten spells pretty easily, or you can use your metamagic points to cast your own see-thru darkness spells or summon your hound of ill omen. You can also pound the hell out of someone either with EB ray cheese (add hexblades curse and hex for great justice!) or slamming people with melee novas.


There's a lot of potential to the Sorlockadin combo, but GETTING there is a LONG trip.