Chris Perkins just confirmed they're working on Spelljammer

[jaappleton]

I'm watching the D&D Presents livestream at PAX Unplugged.

D&D Presents is going to be the new WOTC D&D Live Show on Tuesdays, replacing the cancelled Dice, Camera, Action! game.

After confirming the game will be set in Perkins version of Forgotten Realms, this happened:

Question from the audience: "Will you (Perkins) be using material from other settings in the game?"

Perkins: "I'm willing to pull material from other settings, including stuff we're working on, like Spelljammer."

[Millstone85]

In the immortal words of Philip J. Fry, shut up and take my money!

[CapnWildefyr]

Well they've already added Giff and neogi, so Im not too surprised. Hope they get to it fast! My group had a blast playing SpellJammer.

[Cygnia]

*crosses fingers for Planescape too*

[Tvtyrant]

Looking forward to the Return to Wizardtrek, Neog More Worms.

[moonfly7]

What's a spell jammer?

[Ventruenox]

What's a spell jammer?

D&D in Spaaaaaace! It has been around (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer) since 2nd edition.

[moonfly7]

D&D in Spaaaaaace! It has been around (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer) since 2nd edition.
Oh cool. Just looked it up. Seems legit.

[Anderlith]

What's a spell jammer?

A spelljammer is a ship designed to fly between worlds

[Millstone85]

*crosses fingers for Planescape too*I hope the book will have a page or two on non-Material spelljamming.

For example, the 4e book The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea introduced the Outer Torments, a kind of zeroth hell consisting of rocks floating way above Avernus. I think this could be adapted to the 5e Great Wheel.

[MaxWilson]

Well they've already added Giff and neogi, so Im not too surprised. Hope they get to it fast! My group had a blast playing SpellJammer.

A month ago I wouldn't have cared--I'd have said, "WotC is sure to just mess it up. They have yet to produce a sourcebook which is worth the money and more importantly time to consume." But I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of Rising From the Last War. If they put the same writers on Spelljammer that they put on Eberron they could wind up with something better than the original, because let's be fair, the concept of Spelljammer was great but aside from a few gems like Practical Planetology and a few sidebars in the boxed set on organizations like the PotS/Chainmen/Order of the Chalice/etc., the actual setting material was pretty thin, and DMs had to fill in a lot of blanks themselves.

Rising From the Last War does a great job of outlining for the DM what organizations, assumptions and history are built into the setting and what is explicitly supposed to be decided by individual campaigns (e.g. what caused the Mourning? are the daughters of Sora Kell benevolent or malign?). A setting book which provided a similar level of detail for Spelljammer would be well worth my $50.

P.S. One thing Spelljammer, Planescape, and apparently Eberron have in common is that they are all highly cosmopolitan settings where a Mind Flayer is definitely an evil brain-sucking creature but he still might be peacefully doing business with in your city, perhaps buying the brains of convicted criminals or worn-out slaves. All of them are well-suited to adventures types beyond the classic dungeon crawl or "save the world!" adventure paths, though of course you can include dungeon crawls as an element of e.g. a mystery adventure (gain extra clues by dungeon crawling the sewer where the victim was murdered) or a social quest (gain status in your society by dungeon crawling in the Absurdly Dangerous Hole until you find a magic item to impress the folks back home!).

Also, they all have some moral and metaphysical ambiguity about divinities/gods/Powers and the role, if any, which purported gods play in the creation of the universe and the the fate of souls after death. I believe all three settings have room for atheism/henotheism/monotheism/polytheism/pantheism, not particularly privileging any viewpoint.

[ZorroGames]

I'm watching the D&D Presents livestream at PAX Unplugged.

D&D Presents is going to be the new WOTC D&D Live Show on Tuesdays, replacing the cancelled Dice, Camera, Action! game.

After confirming the game will be set in Perkins version of Forgotten Realms, this happened:

Question from the audience: "Will you (Perkins) be using material from other settings in the game?"

Perkins: "I'm willing to pull material from other settings, including stuff we're working on, like Spelljammer."

Well, we shall see. Never got into this variant of D&D but if (big if) well executed and avoids being OTT with original 5e than it might add some spice as a supplemental material. Not so sure of it as a base game setting. Though it would put my 15mm Giff into action again...

[Brookshw]

I'm going to be cautious, but they've done pretty well this edition so......maybe. Just maybe.

Who am I kidding, I'll preorder it the first day it becomes available.

Hopefully we don't get 20 flavors of meteor monsters this time.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I've never played Spelljammer b/c I considered it completely ridiculous. Space hippo w/a blunderbuss levels of ridiculous.

But I've lightened up in my old age so maybe I'll just write up my own ridiculous character and go for it.

I wanna be a D&D space pirate.

[Tanarii]

I already did my SQUEE! last time this was "confirmed". I don't want to get my hopes up again.

[Zhorn]

:smallbiggrin:

Looks like it's time to start weaving in backgrounds hints about spelljammer into my games. My players are all 5e-only types, and don't have much in the way of prior edition knowledge. This will be very new to them, and I look forward to slowly building up the hype for spelljamming between the spheres

[Trask]

Wish they would do Dark Sun first. High level D&D ends up feeling like Spelljammer anyways (in my experience). I'd really like a setting with rules mods that really deviate from the D&D norm.

[Millstone85]

When VGtM mentioned neogi ships, this was followed by a very interesting paragraph.
Some neogi use magic--the result of a pact between the neogi and aberrant entities they met during their journey from their home world. These entities look like stars and embody the essence of evil. They are known by such names as Acamar, Caiphon, Gibbeth, and Hadar.

Those are the names of 4e patrons of the star pact, and I really want to see them fully described in a Spelljammer context. Like, does Caiphon attach itself to a crystal sphere, adding a light in the firmament that wasn't there before?

[Tawmis]

Perkins: "I'm willing to pull material from other settings, including stuff we're working on, like Spelljammer."

I think you may be reading too much into it.

I don't know if that's saying they're working ON Spelljammer or stuff LIKE Spelljammer.

That's two very different things. And I suspect more the latter.

I don't have the Ebberon stuff for 5e - but it includes flying ships, right?

So they're probably working on variant rules that allow "spelljamming" but probably not "Spelljammer" specifically.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wish they would do Dark Sun first. Yeah. Dark Sun is anti bloat, spelljammer is bloat.

(But I do agree with JackofAllTirades, space pirate is an appealing role).

[MaxWilson]

High level D&D ends up feeling like Spelljammer anyways (in my experience).

In normal high-level D&D, do you wind up working for the mind flayers to end a beholder civil war, all the while expecting to be double-crossed by the short-sighted Elven Imperial Navy bureaucrats who are trying to bury evidence of their personal failures during the Unhuman Wars? Do you watch orcs devastate planetary ecologies with their bioweapons?

My impression of modern high-level D&D is that it's more often about Forgotten Realms-ish "save the world from demon lords" than cosmopolitan Shadowrun In Spaaaaaaaaace like Spelljammer.

Athas is of course very cool too in its own way. But also depressing.

[Luccan]

I think you may be reading too much into it.

I don't know if that's saying they're working ON Spelljammer or stuff LIKE Spelljammer.

That's two very different things. And I suspect more the latter.

I don't have the Ebberon stuff for 5e - but it includes flying ships, right?

So they're probably working on variant rules that allow "spelljamming" but probably not "Spelljammer" specifically.

If the sentence was written that way on purpose, I think it parses as a soft confirmation of Spelljammer. Mind you "working on" could still be years down the road. How long, from Artificer's first UA to Wayfarer's to now, did Eberron take?

They haven't really released anything for the setting in UA and Giff and neogi are the the only setting specific stuff at all right now.

[ZorroGames]

I think you may be reading too much into it.

I don't know if that's saying they're working ON Spelljammer or stuff LIKE Spelljammer.

That's two very different things. And I suspect more the latter.

I don't have the Ebberon stuff for 5e - but it includes flying ships, right?

So they're probably working on variant rules that allow "spelljamming" but probably not "Spelljammer" specifically.

Good point. Possibly a WOTC 5e “Spelljammer like” thing.

[MaxWilson]

If the sentence was written that way on purpose, I think it parses as a soft confirmation of Spelljammer. Mind you "working on" could still be years down the road. How long, from Artificer's first UA to Wayfarer's to now, did Eberron take?

They haven't really released anything for the setting in UA and Giff and neogi are the the only setting specific stuff at all right now.

Morkoths also come from Spelljammer, and the idea of beholderkin like the Deep Kiss, although I can't remember whether the Deep Kiss itself came from Spelljammer MC 7/9.

[Tanarii]

Yeah. Dark Sun is anti bloat, spelljammer is bloat.
Dark Sun is incredible unique setting that is hard to steal parts of, and only for custom settings. It doesn't play nice with other settings at all, it's mostly locked off. The only thing it has going for it is psionics, which no edition of D&D has ever successfully implemented a playable and balanced system for. (Even 4e's psionics was a mess.)

Spelljammer fits in and around almost any setting. Same with Planescape. Since they are add ones, they can be bolted on to any home setting without a completely custom multiverse. And are explicitly designed to bolt-on to several existing settings. Explicitly Oerth and Toril and Krynn, although the last feels a bit weird from a world fluff perspective IMO.

Of course, since 5e has only developed Toril, Eberron (mostly locked off) and an adventure path in Ravenloft (a bolt-on itself), that last point isn't as strong as it might sound. :smallamused:

Edit: don't get me wrong. I liked Dark Sun a lot. I even ran it a fair amount, messy psionics and all. But Spelljammer (and Planescape) play nicer with other published products. Stand-alone demand is important, but compatibility enhances demand for all products involved. And competition with other products spreads it thinner.

[Luccan]

Dark Sun is incredible unique setting that is hard to steal parts of, and only for custom settings. It doesn't play nice with other settings at all, it's mostly locked off. The only thing it has going for it is psionics, which no edition of D&D has ever successfully implemented a playable and balanced system for. (Even 4e's psionics was a mess.)

Spelljammer fits in and around almost any setting. Same with Planescape. Since they are add ones, they can be bolted on to any home setting without a completely custom multiverse. And are explicitly designed to bolt-on to several existing settings. Explicitly Oerth and Toril and Krynn, although the last feels a bit weird from a world fluff perspective IMO.

Of course, since 5e has only developed Toril, Eberron (mostly locked off) and an adventure path in Ravenloft (a bolt-on itself), that last point isn't as strong as it might sound. :smallamused:

Edit: don't get me wrong. I liked Dark Sun a lot. I even ran it a fair amount, messy psionics and all. But Spelljammer (and Planescape) play nicer with other published products. Stand-alone demand is important, but compatibility enhances demand for all products involved. And competition with other products spreads it thinner.

3.5 Psionics worked just as well as, if not better than, 3.5 casting. It broke the game if you wanted it to (so did casting), but it didn't have to and most powers were less abusable while being more flexible than spells.

[Tanarii]

3.5 Psionics worked just as well as, if not better than, 3.5 casting. It broke the game if you wanted it to (so did casting), but it didn't have to and most powers were less abusable while being more flexible than spells.
I don't remember it that way, but sometimes I'm thinking of 3e instead of 3.5. I played far more of the former than the latter.

[Luccan]

I don't remember it that way, but sometimes I'm thinking of 3e instead of 3.5. I played far more of the former than the latter.

3e psionics were definitely broken in a bad way, but that's because it stuck to the old "different forms of psionic attack and defense" that could only ever possibly work in a game dedicated to it (which D&D is not). 3.5 stopped trying to make Psionics non-sensical just for the sake of it.

[Trask]

In normal high-level D&D, do you wind up working for the mind flayers to end a beholder civil war, all the while expecting to be double-crossed by the short-sighted Elven Imperial Navy bureaucrats who are trying to bury evidence of their personal failures during the Unhuman Wars? Do you watch orcs devastate planetary ecologies with their bioweapons?

My impression of modern high-level D&D is that it's more often about Forgotten Realms-ish "save the world from demon lords" than cosmopolitan Shadowrun In Spaaaaaaaaace like Spelljammer.

Athas is of course very cool too in its own way. But also depressing.

No not usually anything so planetary. But its usually not a dissimilar experience from that kind of thing, being fantasy superheroes saving the world isnt that different from being fantasy space heroes saving the galaxy. I'm not saying Spelljammer doesnt have its uniqueness, but its not a serious departure from the kind of experience you can get anywhere else in any other mainstream setting.

Dark Sun fundamentally subverts and reinvents D&D fantasy into it's own thing, inspired by a very different tradition (Pulp adventure/Conan, Dying Earth, Metal album covers). Spelljammer doesnt, its literally just D&D in space and thats not bad, but it doesnt really feel that interesting to someone looking for a new setting to actually feel new, not just like D&D but with a new coat of paint.

[Brookshw]

Yeah. Dark Sun is anti bloat, spelljammer is bloat.


Not sure I follow. Why is one bloat but not the other?

[MaxWilson]

No not usually anything so planetary. But its usually not a dissimilar experience from that kind of thing, being fantasy superheroes saving the world isnt that different from being fantasy space heroes saving the galaxy.

But Spelljammer *isn't* about that, IME. It's Shadowrun, not Lord of the Rings, and that's what makes it different. Lots of moral ambiguity, cosmopolitan alliances, and vast ancient mysteries. About the only thing it has in common with "fantasy space heroes saving the galaxy" is space.

It does lend itself to space opera, and "prevent your nation from losing a fantasy space war" is a possible story arc, but unlike "heroes saving the world/galaxy" there's no pretensions there to being the Good Guy while the other side is the Bad Guys. You've got good people on your side and on their side, and bad people too, and that's just how it is.

Like Planescape and apparently Eberron, Spelljammer is the opposite of "normal" modern high-level D&D in this regard.

[Millstone85]

One thing Spelljammer, Planescape, and apparently Eberron have in common is that they are all highly cosmopolitan settings [...] Also, they all have some moral and metaphysical ambiguity about divinities/gods/Powers and the role, if any, which purported gods play in the creation of the universe and the the fate of souls after death. I believe all three settings have room for atheism/henotheism/monotheism/polytheism/pantheism, not particularly privileging any viewpoint.Correct me if I am wrong, but 5e's default approach on these matters is taken straight from Planescape. Deities and philosophies derive their magical power from the faith invested in them. Deities who run low on followers risk becoming adrift in the Astral as city-sized petrified corpses. Souls that do not worship a deity depart to the planes that match their alignments. It is all in the DMG.

Spelljammer takes place in the Material as it exists within the Great Wheel, so it should all work the same.

Eberron leaves more mystery regarding divine power and what may or may not exist beyond the grim afterlife of Dolurrh. Though RftLW largely throws that away by claiming that the progenitor wyrms created the Orrery as a microcosmology inside the Great Wheel's Deep Ethereal.

[jaappleton]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/517855351

What I'm talking about happens at 4:12:14

[MaxWilson]

Correct me if I am wrong, but 5e's default approach on these matters is taken straight from Planescape. Deities and philosophies derive their magical power from the faith invested in them. Deities who run low on followers risk becoming adrift in the Astral as city-sized petrified corpses. Souls that do not worship a deity depart to the planes that match their alignments. It is all in the DMG.

Spelljammer takes place in the Material as it exists within the Great Wheel, so it should all work the same.

Eberron leaves more mystery regarding divine power and what may or may not exist beyond the grim afterlife of Dolurrh. Though RftLW largely throws that away by claiming that the progenitor wyrms created the Orrery as a microcosmology inside the Great Wheel's Deep Ethereal.

I know Planescape less well than Spelljammer, but what I had in mind here was less the metaphysics and more the setting, e.g. organizations like the Athar are not something the 5E PHB encourages you to have as a background. It doesn't forbid it, but unlike Planescape and Rising From the Last War and Spelljammer it doesn't go out of its way to encourage it. The default 5E attitude towards purported divinities is that you'd have to be crazy not to believe they are what they say they are, even though of course that's not really true. But these three settings all go out of their way to say, "on the other hand, you know, it might be a scam."

[Cybren]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/517855351

What I'm talking about happens at 4:12:14

https://clips.twitch.tv/VainDeadWolverineRiPepperonis
clipp'd

[Millstone85]

But these three settings all go out of their way to say, "on the other hand, you know, it might be a scam."Ah, yes, I see your point.


https://clips.twitch.tv/VainDeadWolverineRiPepperonis
clipp'dSo he didn't say "stuff we're working on" but "stuff that we haven't even released yet".

Is it me, or is that much more vague? He could have meant that he can throw a spaceship in his campaign if he wants to, even if Spelljammer hasn't made it to 5e.

[jaappleton]

Ah, yes, I see your point.

So he didn't say "stuff we're working on" but "stuff that we haven't even released yet".

Is it me, or is that much more vague? He could have meant that he can throw a spaceship in his campaign if he wants to, even if Spelljammer hasn't made it to 5e.

In my OP I wrote what I'd thought he'd said. Its obvious looking back (It was live at the time, I couldn't rewind!) that I misheard.

HOWEVER. Between the ships in the Baldur's Gate 3 trailer, Giff, and tons of other examples, I do think Chris said Spelljammer for a particular reason.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, yes, I see your point.

So he didn't say "stuff we're working on" but "stuff that we haven't even released yet".

Is it me, or is that much more vague? He could have meant that he can throw a spaceship in his campaign if he wants to, even if Spelljammer hasn't made it to 5e.

I think it's just you. To me "haven't even released yet" implies "has a release date."

[Millstone85]

I think it's just you. To me "haven't even released yet" implies "has a release date."Keeping my fingers crossed, then.

[Tanarii]

But Spelljammer *isn't* about that, IME. It's Shadowrun, not Lord of the Rings, and that's what makes it different. Lots of moral ambiguity, cosmopolitan alliances, and vast ancient mysteries. About the only thing it has in common with "fantasy space heroes saving the galaxy" is space.

It does lend itself to space opera, and "prevent your nation from losing a fantasy space war" is a possible story arc, but unlike "heroes saving the world/galaxy" there's no pretensions there to being the Good Guy while the other side is the Bad Guys. You've got good people on your side and on their side, and bad people too, and that's just how it is.

Like Planescape and apparently Eberron, Spelljammer is the opposite of "normal" modern high-level D&D in this regard.
Hmmm interesting. My experience with Spelljammer is it's primarily Star Trek. Or any similar show. Episodic adventure of the week bravely exploring new planets where no humanoid was meant to go. With a backdrop of ancient empires and modern factions we slowly learn more about and develop story round.

Personally I find the 'bad guys are usually the bad guys but sometimes they're honorable or temporarily on your side' and 'good guys are usually the good guys but sometimes they're kinda asshats' to be be classic Hollywood writing that goes hand in hand with that.

Of course, that's a traditional way to start a new campaign anyway. Adventure of the week slowly progresses into story arcs, as the DM (retroactively) invents the campaign setting and you learn more about it.

[MaxWilson]

Keeping my fingers crossed, then.

To elaborate in slightly more detail:

In my business (I work for Microsoft), "something we're working on" = something that might or might not pan out. "Hasn't been released yet" = definitely going to happen but I may or may not be able to talk about it yet, depending on whether it's been announced.


Hmmm interesting. My experience with Spelljammer is it's primarily Star Trek. Or any similar show. Episodic adventure of the week bravely exploring new planets where no humanoid was meant to go. With a backdrop of ancient empires and modern factions we slowly learn more about and develop story round.

Personally I find the 'bad guys are usually the bad guys but sometimes they're honorable or temporarily on your side' and 'good guys are usually the good guys but sometimes they're kinda ------' to be be classic Hollywood writing that goes hand in hand with that.

Of course, that's a traditional way to start a new campaign anyway. Adventure of the week slowly progresses into story arcs, as the DM (retroactively) invents the campaign setting and you learn more about it.

Yep, sounds like we have relatively similar experiences with Spelljammer, which suggests to me that something about the setting encourages this kind of play--it's not just me. Obviously you can have this kind of play experience in any campaign, but my impression of "normal, high-level D&D" based on forum conversations and WotC products and comments in this thread is that "save the world from demon lords" is more the norm for most people.

So a product line that teaches people how to play the Star Trek way (or Babylon Five way, or Spelljammer way, or whatever you want to call it) is a good thing IMO, especially if it's as well-written as Rising From the Last War. (Seriously, that book is the best-edited book WotC has put out for 5E. E.g. the Artificer spell list is given right there in the Artificer class description instead of buried in an appendix, which is a small-but-important usability improvement.)

[Evaar]

Ah, yes, I see your point.

So he didn't say "stuff we're working on" but "stuff that we haven't even released yet".

Is it me, or is that much more vague? He could have meant that he can throw a spaceship in his campaign if he wants to, even if Spelljammer hasn't made it to 5e.

If I recall correctly, there is a published 5e adventure that has a Spelljammer ship in it already.

Doesnt Mad Mage have a Mindflayer ship in it? I guess one could argue they’re already canonically space-faring but still.

[Tanarii]

If I recall correctly, there is a published 5e adventure that has a Spelljammer ship in it already.

Doesnt Mad Mage have a Mindflayer ship in it? I guess one could argue they’re already canonically space-faring but still.
Dungeon of the Mad Mage has a Goth-controlled star dock, which explicitly references spelljammers docking at it's space dock.

But Canonically in 5e, mindflayer Nautiloids are astral/planar shifting vessels. Not spelljammers. See Volo's Guide to Monsters p71.

Otoh it makes perfect sense for them to have converted them to spacefaring vessels after their war with the Gith, since they fled to the Material Plane and hide there. Not all of them necessarily hide underground, there's plenty of hiding out in space ...

Edit: oh yeah, it has a classic Squidship pattern Spelljammer a few levels later. In 2e that was a human/lizard man ship. But 5e DotMM calls is a Mindflayer built ship.

[Millstone85]

Seriously, that book is the best-edited book WotC has put out for 5E.I am also having a good time reading it.


Goth-controlled star dockWell now isn't that a funny typo.

[Brookshw]

Dungeon of the Mad Mage has a Goth-controlled star dock, which explicitly references spelljammers docking at it's space dock.


There's also a crashed one in the dungeon itself.

[Petrocorus]

I never had the opportunity to try SpellJammer, and i'm eager to.
I always wanted to try it since i read an article on it in DragMag back in the 90s.


3.5 Psionics worked just as well as, if not better than, 3.5 casting. It broke the game if you wanted it to (so did casting), but it didn't have to and most powers were less abusable while being more flexible than spells.
I agree.
Though you'd need to be careful with online material giving custom powers list to Ardent and the (in)famous spell-to-power variant for Erudites, and a few other combo.


I don't remember it that way, but sometimes I'm thinking of 3e instead of 3.5. I played far more of the former than the latter.
3.0's psionics were a mess. 3.5's were much better, even if they had flaws and a few broken combos.
It was still much more balanced, less abusable and maybe even more organic than casting.


Not sure I follow. Why is one bloat but not the other?
Actually, what does "bloat" means?



So a product line that teaches people how to play the Star Trek way (or Babylon Five way, or Spelljammer way, or whatever you want to call it)
I've started to think (due to another thread actually) about adapting Babylon 5 to D&D.
I was thinking about doing it in Eberron, but Spelljammer would do much better.