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RNightstalker
2019-12-07, 12:24 PM
So when I first got into 3.x back in the day, I fell in love with the Tempest PrC (yes, I wanted to make a human Drizz't). But the feat tax in both 3.0 and 3.5 made it undesirable and was nerfed by losing the bonus TWF feats.

So, my fellow playgrounders, how do we fix this PrC?

Zaq
2019-12-07, 12:42 PM
The problem with the tempest is that it doesn't do anything.

Seriously, out of five levels it gets literally one ability that is more than "your numbers are marginally bigger." Look at it.

Tempest defense: Your numbers are marginally bigger for AC. (+3 total, woo.)
Ambidexterity: Your numbers are marginally bigger for to-hit. (+2 total, woo.)
Two-weapon versatility: Your numbers are marginally bigger on your off-hand attacks if you happened to have relatively lackluster feats that previously only applied to your main hand for some reason.
Two-weapon spring attack: Behold, an ability that's not just small +numbers! But it just more or less duplicates the effect of the somewhat marginal Bounding Assault feat in PHB2.

So the first problem is defining what you want the tempest to do, because it doesn't do anything. +3 AC and +2 to-hit over five levels is nothing. Using boring +numbers feats on two different weapons is nothing (just use the same damn weapon like a normal person, or take a level of fighter and take the feat twice). Getting what is only a slightly better version of a not-very-great feat is nothing.

So instead you need to figure out what it SHOULD do. Obviously it's about fighting with two weapons. Cool. Think of ways to make that more interesting other than simply +numbers. I mean, you can include +numbers (hell, you can keep everything the class currently has if you really want to), but that can't be the primary draw of the class, because that simply isn't a draw. What other cool things can you do when fighting with two weapons?

Here's a few brainstormed ideas. They aren't all good, but they might get you moving.

Maybe add a new form of precision damage that isn't ignored by immunity to crits and that simply requires that you have already hit the target earlier in the round. (And not just +1d6, either. You're already midway through your career by the time you get in AND you can't get it on every attack in the round, so don't be stingy.)
Throw in some Tiger Claw maneuvers.
Make it more mobile in ways that aren't just "like Spring Attack, but."
Let it get an extra off-hand attack on the same trigger as Snap Kick (i.e., damn near everything).
Add weird debuffs based on you confusing the enemy with too many weapon attacks at once.
Look at the serene guardian class in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde and crib the "resonance" mechanic, then fine-tune it to be a little less mystical and a bit more of a "combat rhythm" sort of thing. (Basically let the tempest build up "points" in a target by hitting the target with multiple-weapon attacks and then let the tempest spend those points to make the target very unhappy in various ways.)
Give it the melee equivalent of Greater Manyshot (i.e., make a multi-part attack as a standard action that still explicitly isn't a volley attack and therefore explicitly lets you trigger on-hit effects, including but not limited to precision damage, multiple times).

That sort of thing.

You could also absolutely relax the stupid prereqs (requiring three feats that don't work with the fighting style until you reach the capstone ability is horrible design, made worse by the fact that you can still never use the required ITWF with the required Spring Attack even with the capstone), make the skills less anemic, and add similar quality-of-life improvements while you're at it. I mean, yes, at this point I've basically told you to throw the entire thing out and start over. There's a reason for that. It's bad.

TheCount
2019-12-07, 12:52 PM
Edit damn nninjas!

i would like to be the first who says, Tome of Battle does it better:P
i mean, really, warblade with tigerclaw manuvers.

Aside from that? whats your problem with it? yould be a bit easier to fix if we know that...

ZamielVanWeber
2019-12-07, 12:56 PM
Simple fixes include:
Giving them rend.
Letting them attack with both weapons as a standard action.
Giving a scaling bonus to hit based on successful attacks.
Bonus feats to grab some of the many feats beneficial two weapon fighting.

Maat Mons
2019-12-07, 03:11 PM
Are you sure it isn't Dervish you fell in love with? That always seemed like a much more Drizzt-y class to me.

Dervish could still use some fixing. Notably, it locks you out of using power attack with its signature weapon, the scimitar, at 1st level. Every single other character in the game can power attack with it. But in your hands it's worse, because you've practiced with it more.

But at least Dervish had something interesting going on with the ability to move and full attack.

elonin
2019-12-07, 07:38 PM
Are you sure it isn't Dervish you fell in love with? That always seemed like a much more Drizzt-y class to me.

Dervish could still use some fixing. Notably, it locks you out of using power attack with its signature weapon, the scimitar, at 1st level. Every single other character in the game can power attack with it. But in your hands it's worse, because you've practiced with it more.

But at least Dervish had something interesting going on with the ability to move and full attack.

I've been trying to get that to work with ranger and scout, but it doesn't work.

Kelb_Panthera
2019-12-07, 11:46 PM
Don't know about ranger or scout but it works might well with swordsage: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2021140

If the custom warmask is a bridge too far, drop it for the tooth of leraje, reduce the off-hand end of the scimitar by +4 to attack and damage, and put 15k of the 21,600 toward a set of tigerclaw bracers loaded with dancing mongoose.

RNightstalker
2019-12-10, 09:15 PM
The problem with the tempest is that it doesn't do anything.

Seriously, out of five levels it gets literally one ability that is more than "your numbers are marginally bigger." Look at it.

Tempest defense: Your numbers are marginally bigger for AC. (+3 total, woo.)
Ambidexterity: Your numbers are marginally bigger for to-hit. (+2 total, woo.)
Two-weapon versatility: Your numbers are marginally bigger on your off-hand attacks if you happened to have relatively lackluster feats that previously only applied to your main hand for some reason.
Two-weapon spring attack: Behold, an ability that's not just small +numbers! But it just more or less duplicates the effect of the somewhat marginal Bounding Assault feat in PHB2.

So the first problem is defining what you want the tempest to do, because it doesn't do anything. +3 AC and +2 to-hit over five levels is nothing. Using boring +numbers feats on two different weapons is nothing (just use the same damn weapon like a normal person, or take a level of fighter and take the feat twice). Getting what is only a slightly better version of a not-very-great feat is nothing.

So instead you need to figure out what it SHOULD do. Obviously it's about fighting with two weapons. Cool. Think of ways to make that more interesting other than simply +numbers. I mean, you can include +numbers (hell, you can keep everything the class currently has if you really want to), but that can't be the primary draw of the class, because that simply isn't a draw. What other cool things can you do when fighting with two weapons?

Here's a few brainstormed ideas. They aren't all good, but they might get you moving.

Maybe add a new form of precision damage that isn't ignored by immunity to crits and that simply requires that you have already hit the target earlier in the round. (And not just +1d6, either. You're already midway through your career by the time you get in AND you can't get it on every attack in the round, so don't be stingy.)
Throw in some Tiger Claw maneuvers.
Make it more mobile in ways that aren't just "like Spring Attack, but."
Let it get an extra off-hand attack on the same trigger as Snap Kick (i.e., damn near everything).
Add weird debuffs based on you confusing the enemy with too many weapon attacks at once.
Look at the serene guardian class in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde and crib the "resonance" mechanic, then fine-tune it to be a little less mystical and a bit more of a "combat rhythm" sort of thing. (Basically let the tempest build up "points" in a target by hitting the target with multiple-weapon attacks and then let the tempest spend those points to make the target very unhappy in various ways.)
Give it the melee equivalent of Greater Manyshot (i.e., make a multi-part attack as a standard action that still explicitly isn't a volley attack and therefore explicitly lets you trigger on-hit effects, including but not limited to precision damage, multiple times).

That sort of thing.

You could also absolutely relax the stupid prereqs (requiring three feats that don't work with the fighting style until you reach the capstone ability is horrible design, made worse by the fact that you can still never use the required ITWF with the required Spring Attack even with the capstone), make the skills less anemic, and add similar quality-of-life improvements while you're at it. I mean, yes, at this point I've basically told you to throw the entire thing out and start over. There's a reason for that. It's bad.

I apologize, I should've started with the standard disclaimer: "Not looking for X sucks, do Y instead". I do agree with you, the PrC overall sucks and that's the point of this thread.


Edit damn nninjas!

i would like to be the first who says, Tome of Battle does it better:P
i mean, really, warblade with tigerclaw manuvers.

Aside from that? whats your problem with it? yould be a bit easier to fix if we know that...

Honestly, 2nd biggest issue is the feat tax mentioned above. Biggest #1 issue: the text in the class description was copied and pasted from Masters of the Wild to CA and was worse at what it was supposed to do.


Simple fixes include:
Giving them rend.
Letting them attack with both weapons as a standard action.
Giving a scaling bonus to hit based on successful attacks.
Bonus feats to grab some of the many feats beneficial two weapon fighting.

Good ideas I'll address below.


Are you sure it isn't Dervish you fell in love with? That always seemed like a much more Drizzt-y class to me.

Dervish could still use some fixing. Notably, it locks you out of using power attack with its signature weapon, the scimitar, at 1st level. Every single other character in the game can power attack with it. But in your hands it's worse, because you've practiced with it more.

But at least Dervish had something interesting going on with the ability to move and full attack.

I actually have built a Dervish but disagree about the PA: the whole class is designed around movement and finesse, not power.


I've been trying to get that to work with ranger and scout, but it doesn't work.

The forementioned Dervish I built actually worked quite well until the DM had to buff the monsters so the RSoP in the party couldn't one-round them all.


Don't know about ranger or scout but it works might well with swordsage: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2021140

If the custom warmask is a bridge too far, drop it for the tooth of leraje, reduce the off-hand end of the scimitar by +4 to attack and damage, and put 15k of the 21,600 toward a set of tigerclaw bracers loaded with dancing mongoose.

Thanks for the input all, here's a rough draft idea:

Overall I think a 5-level PrC is appropriate

Requirements:
-TWF, Improved TWF, Combat Reflexes, BAB +11

Class Features:
-Full BAB, Good Will (and Ref?)
-2+ SP per level (4+ would be better, but what skills to add?)
-D10 hit die
-TWF Mastery: at each level (1-5) Tempest gets a +1/+1 attack bonus when fighting with two weapons (but not a double weapon)
-Keep Tempest Defense per CA entry
-Greater TWF at 1st level
-Supreme TWF at 5th level
-Ability to attack with both weapons as a standard action and AoO

Glimbur
2019-12-10, 09:54 PM
Why require combat reflexes if no class features require it? Maybe let them give up an AoO to parry an attack, use your attack roll instead of your AC for an attack. Seems fitting, maybe a touch too strong.

martixy
2019-12-10, 10:06 PM
Little about the Tempest is a problem with the Tempest.

I'd:
TWF:
* At BAB+6 you can attack with both weapons as a standard action.
* Can make AoOs with both weapons at BAB+11.

Imp. TWF:
* Unlocks iteratives for off-hand.

Dodge/Mobility
* Treat as a feat tax (http://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/).

Spring Attack
* Do any sort of standard action.

Use weapon groups
* More varied weapon combos possible.

Notice how the prereqs don't change, but they're now all things you want or that don't cost you.
Me, I offer feat taxes at certain BABs.

Obvious crap:
* Eliminating TWF penalties (to-hit, off-hand damage). Tempest is supposed to be a TWF specialist after all.
* Rend is a good idea. By which I mean the ToB rend idea - cumulative dmg for attacks hit.
* Allowing creative ways to setup full attacks.
* Some kind of swift-action move.
* Trading attacks for move. E.g. give up attack, take a free 5ft step. In my game, that's a default feature, but you could limit this to a class.
* Personally not a fan of recycling. E.g. cribbing Tiger Claw manauvers.

As for actual class features:
I'm thinking about ways of having the two weapons play off each other. Think in the direction of tactical feats. Setting up combos.
For example, say you have a piercing and slashing weapon. If you deal piercing damage first, then slashing, one kind of debuff occurs. If you create a different combo you get a different debuff.
Combat maneuver stuff, tripping, sundering, bull rush, etc. combos.
(More magically) Messing with item properties - e.g. allowing one property to apply to both weapons for a limited time, or stuff like that. Amplifying effects.
That "combat rhythm" idea sounds pretty good.

heavyfuel
2019-12-10, 10:48 PM
I apologize, I should've started with the standard disclaimer: "Not looking for X sucks, do Y instead". I do agree with you, the PrC overall sucks and that's the point of this thread.

Only Zaq didn't do that. He did tell you the class sucks, but then he didn't tell you to go play something else. He told you precisely what you asked for: how to fix the tempest.

Personally I like the idea of extra damage vs foes you've hit this round. I'd make it a straight +2 per level, so that you can crit with it. At ECL 11 that's +10 dmg, or +30 dmg per round if you hit 4 out of your 7 attacks. That's comparable to lv 7 maneuvers, plus you get to make multiple attacks.

Really liking the status effects as well. Maybe something like: If you hit and deal damage to an opponent 4 times in a single full-attack, they must make a Will save (DC = highest damage dealt on the full attack) or be dazed for 1 round. As a capstone make it Stunned and Dazed (not cumulative, but they can still get dazed if they're immune to stun).



Spring Attack
* Do any sort of standard action.

Every caster in the game now has spring attack. Ok, not every caster, but my point stands (especially Clerics, since they can't get Flyby Attack as easily)

Besides the Spring Attack thing, I second these suggestions.

And what you said is very true. The problems are in big part due to the prejudice against TWF. In my games the TWF feat is a combination of the Perfect TWF epic feat from CW and Dual Strike from CAdv. Nothing has been broken so far.

Aotrs Commander
2019-12-11, 06:04 AM
I mean, I took the opposite approach and said "if it offers you nothing, it might as well be a feat" and just made Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting a feat, gave TWF full damage on the off-hand when you have the TWF feat (if you're gonna spend all the feats on it, it might as WELL have something for it over 2HF) (rendering Tempest entirely irrelevant, since that was basically the only thing it had going for it) and called it a day. There's plenty of TWF feats.

(Granted, we also have fighters getting a feat every level, to simply taking five levels of fighter will gain you some of those.)



(And this was before back-porting loads of PF1 feats.)

Gnaeus
2019-12-11, 06:20 AM
* Trading attacks for move. E.g. give up attack, take a free 5ft step. In my game, that's a default feature, but you could limit this to a class.
* Personally not a fan of recycling. E.g. cribbing Tiger Claw manauvers.

The moonlight meditant (a pf DSP soulknife archetype) has a mechanic where you can take a free 5 foot step before each attack then at higher levels it’s a free 10 foot, then 15 foot. That seems thematically appropriate and mechanically beneficial here.

GrayDeath
2019-12-11, 12:25 PM
Well, you learns omething every day.

Ia ctually thought you wanted to "fix" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempest

Which given it is by far my most favourite Shakespeare play, would be....well, something tot rigger me. ^^



For the actual topic: Most has already been said, but reiterating the most important aprt: he Tempest class is actually almost exclusively "does 2 weapon Fighting with higher Numbers" and should hence be easy.
Fluffwise, yeah, giving up say one attack for 10ft movement when using that movement to attack sounds cool. Depends on your table if its broken or not (here we use a similar house rule for monks).

martixy
2019-12-11, 12:36 PM
The moonlight meditant (a pf DSP soulknife archetype) has a mechanic where you can take a free 5 foot step before each attack then at higher levels it’s a free 10 foot, then 15 foot. That seems thematically appropriate and mechanically beneficial here.

Yea, that was kinda the point, addressing the base issues of TWF, a big one of which is positioning and getting off your full attacks efficiently.


Every caster in the game now has spring attack. Ok, not every caster, but my point stands (especially Clerics, since they can't get Flyby Attack as easily)

Here's the thing though:
First of all, Flyby attack does the same and casters are the most likely to have easy access to a fly speed. Limiting spring attack is in essence helping casters more than mundanes.
Second, in my game Dodge/Mobility is classified as a "feat tax" feat. This places it among a small list of other feats, which are generally useless or situational, but are build enablers. Things such as Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Rapid Reload. Those are granted with BAB, the same way normal feats are granted with levels. They are still a limited resources, it's just that now they do not compete with other more powerful options. And they are cheap and early game for high-BAB characters, but decidedly less available for low-BAB casters. Besides, casters do have their own feat taxes to worry about. So while a fighter(or similar martial class) can easily acquire Spring Attack at the cost of a single feat in their early levels, a caster will acquire this quite a bit later, and might have other casterly feat taxes to contend with.

Troacctid
2019-12-11, 02:35 PM
My wishlist if I were playing a tempest:
Tone down the prerequisites to two or three feats instead of five
Improve mobility somehow so I can move and TWF
Numerical bonuses, incl. some form of bonus damage for TWF
The ability to inflict conditions on enemies if I hit with both weapons, similar to the various weapon style feats
More skill points
Bonus feats wouldn't hurt


Every caster in the game now has spring attack. Ok, not every caster, but my point stands (especially Clerics, since they can't get Flyby Attack as easily)
Mobile Spellcasting already exists and I hardly ever see it mentioned. Is removing the Concentration check really worth two prerequisite feats?

Demidos
2019-12-11, 04:27 PM
As other posters have commented, you have to start with "what is the identity of the class?"

Based on the abilities and the description "A tempest is the point of calm within a whirling barrier of deadly blades."


TWF or Multiweapon Fighting is a must.
Mostly agility based melee oriented class
Can make barriers of blades
Are calm in the face of battle


Given these criteria:
Requirements: Two Weapon Fighting (some investment in the class, but the class is where you actually learn to use it), +5 BAB (you know what you're doing, and can enter at 6th)

Level One: Bonus Feat, Combination Strike
Level Two: Blade Wall
Level Three: Bonus Feat, Whirlwind Attack (as the feat)
Level Four: Inhuman Calm
Level Five: Bonus Feat, Flexible Strikes

Bonus Feats: You gain a bonus feat, which can be any feat from the list of feats for which two weapon fighting is a prerequisite and you meet the requirements with the exception that your Dexterity is treated as 25 for the purposes of bonus feats. You may still not take epic feats without being epic level or having DM permission.

Combination Strike: By striking with two different weapons, you can use the first weapon to set up a devastating strike with the second, and can unleash various powerful techniques that have different effects. You must hit with the weapons in the correct order to activate an effect and declare which strikes are being used after you know whether the attack hits but before you roll damage. Both relevant attacks deal only half the normal damage, but there is no save against the effect. Only 1 combination strike can be used per turn, but this improves to twice at 5th level.

E.g. Vala the Tempest has 3 attacks with her hammer, and then two with her dagger. She swings with the hammer and hits, and declares she is using a combination strike. Her next hammer attack hits, and the last misses. She halves the damage from the first hit and applies full damage for the second hit. She then strikes twice with her dagger. Only the second hits, and she declares the combination attack. The dagger deals only half damage, but the opponent is blinded.

Bludgeoning <--> Piercing: Nauseation (2 Rounds)
Bludgeoning <--> Slashing: Blinding Effect (Lasts 3 rounds)
Slashing <--> Piercing: (Insert some effect, I ran out of ideas off the top of my head)
Bludgeoning --> Bludgeoning: Dazing Effect (Lasts 1 round)
Piercing <--> Piercing: Immobilized (Can't move, can take actions as normal, 2 Rounds)
Slashing --> Slashing: Bleeding Effect (Lasts 10 rounds, damage equals tempest level)

Blade Wall: Immediate action block a single ranged attack (spell or weapon) 1/encounter. Improves to 2/encounter at 5th.

Whirlwind Attack: As the feat. You do not have to meet the feat requirements.

Inhuman Calm: Your skill with blades requires astounding focus. You can reroll 1 will save per encounter. Additionally, you gain the benefits of the mage-slayer feat. (Allows interrupting spellcasting in melee, and a small boost to will saves).

Flexible Strikes: You know how to use your weapons to the maximum. You may apply any standard damage type (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) with any weapon.

martixy
2019-12-11, 07:32 PM
I'm glad someone took my combo idea and ran with it.

This is actually a class I was planning on using for one a boss battle in my game soon, so the timing of this thread is somewhat fortuitous.

I haven't yet had the time to sit down and really think about the design, but I will note what any TWF class needs at least:


Higher numbers: As a TWF-focused class it should be able to do better than your average joe with TWF feats.
Mobility: The flexibility to make full attacks and still move about the battlefield. @Demidos, this is something you don't address and is absolutely critical for TWF.
Alleviate the feat taxes: We've covered this.
TWF is more expensive: You pay for enchantments for two weapons instead of one. Class should be overtuned a little bit to compensate.
Higher damage: 2H has a crapton of combos and multipliers it can apply. Our TWFighter doesn't even get full damage on his off-hand. And DR is more effective against TWF because it applies per-attack.
a) We should probably give him full damage to off-hand.
b) We should give him a way to deal with DR.
Class identity: He should have some signature ability that's fun to use and gives him a unique feel. That's just basic game design.


Idea I had:

Combat Rhythm:
Could be named Eye of the Tempest (Eye of the Storm is taken by Bloodstorm Blade)
a) Each successive strike against a creature reduces your TWF penalties and even gives you bonuses to hit. E.g. go from -2 to +2 to hit as long as you attack the same creature. Bonus lasts one minute after last successful attack or until you switch targets.
b) Start at -2, go up to your Tempest level. Bonus decays at 1 per round. I like this one the best, but it's also the most complex (which is a no-no in game design).
c) Simplest: Just flat out get rid of penalty and be done with it. But Bloodclaw Master already does that.

As far as the debuffs: They don't have to be just imposing various conditions. Pathfinder Unchained rogue, monk, et al can be used for inspiration.
Also, I'd probably limit the duration of all status effects to 2 rounds. That way they can be sustained on 1 target only, which should be the target IMO.

RNightstalker
2019-12-11, 08:50 PM
I'm really enjoying where this is going, though with all the stuff that's been mentioned it might be best to revert it back to a 10-level class a la 3.0.

I'm definitely in agreement about being able to TWF better with two, which is why I mentioned a +1/+1 at each level when fighting with two weapons...which when added to having a light weapon in the "off-hand", that would end up as a +3/+3 bonus in a five-level progression.

I like the idea of doing full damage with the "off-hand" by having a feature that basically states "when fighting with two weapons, the tempest is so _____ that both hands do full damage and is no longer considered to have an 'off-hand".

To add to the movement capabilities, you'd almost want to keep the required feats the same. What about gaining Travel Devotion as a bonus feat and additional uses of it as you progress?

Lastly on this post, I like the idea of a cascading damage bonus for consecutive hits.

martixy
2019-12-11, 09:50 PM
On travel devotion: I have already said I dislike borrowing mechanics from elsewhere.

In any case below is the rough draft of the class.
Disclaimer: Code tags used, because copied directly from my notes and I don't have the patience to reformat for the forums. Made for my own game, any perceived deficiencies are yours to fix.

Already said I dislike borrowing, which means I'm looking to replace the pounce copy I put in there. I just don't have any other good mobility ideas.
Generally I feel like tempest should focus on personal proficiency rather than debilitating his opponents, so not that sure about the combo strikes. And I kinda dislike the Flexible Strikes ability even if I acknowledge it is necessary from a game design standpoint to make the class function.
The ordering is also subject to change. Ideally would space out the mobility options more. Also avoid clustering Tempest Offense/Assault/Fury.


31. Tempest [CA/81]

* Class has been completely reworked.

* Requirements:
- BAB: +5
- Feats: Dodge/Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting

* Class skills and skill points remain the same.

-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Eye of the Tempest
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Whirlwind attack, Tempest Offense
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Hurricane Charge, Combo Strike
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Battlefield Blitz, Tempest Assault
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Flexible Strikes, Tempest Fury
-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Eye of the Tempest (Ex): [Eye of the Storm was already taken by Bloodstorm Blade]
At 1st level, when you enter combat you whip yourself into a frenzy. With each successful strike on an opponent you reduce the penalty for TWF by 1, or gain a +1 bonus to your attack roll. This bonus is cumulative, but decays at a rate of one per round, at the start your turn. You can receive a maximum bonus equal to your class level.

Whirlwind Attack (Ex):
At Xth level, you receive the Whirlwind feat as a bonus feat. You need not meet the prerequisites.

Tempest Offense (Ex):
At Xth level you add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls made for your off-hand weapon.

Battlefield Blitz (Ex):
At Xth level, a tempest who has accumulated a bonus of +1 or higher from his Eye of the Tempest ability, can give up that bonus, resetting his bonus back to -2. In exchange the tempest can move up to his speed as a swift action.

Hurricane Charge (Ex):
At Xth level, a tempest who has accumulated a bonus of +1 or higher from his Eye of the Tempest ability, can give up that bonus, resetting his bonus back to -2. In exchange the tempest perform a special charge at the end of which he can take a full attack action. All conditions, bonuses and penalties for charging apply normally.

Tempest Assault (Ex):
At Xth level, any time you perform more than on attack per round, total the damage from all successful attacks before applying a creature's damage reduction.

Tempest Fury (Ex):
At Xth level, if you strike an opponent multiple times during your turn, you also deal rend damage. You deal 1d6 damage for each successful strike. Determine the rend damage dealt immediately after you make your last attack for your turn. If you attack multiple opponents during your turn, you gain this extra damage against each of them. A creature takes rend damage based on the number of attacks that hit it, not the number of successful attacks you make. For example, if you hit a fire giant three times and an evil cleric twice during your turn, the fire giant takes rend damage for three attacks and the cleric takes rend damage for two attacks.

Combo Strike (Ex):
Slashing-Slashing: Bleed, damage equal to tempest level. Does not stack with itself. Lasts until healed. Heal DC = 20+damage dealt. A magical effect that heals as much the damage dealt also stops the bleed.
Bludgeoning-Bludgeoning: Staggered for 1 round.
Piercing-Piercing: Hampered: All of the target’s speeds are reduced by half (to a minimum of 5 feet). In addition, the target cannot take a 5-foot step. This effect lasts 1 round.
Piercing-Slashing: 1 Dex damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier.
Piercing-Bludgeoning: 1 Con damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier.
Slashing-Bludgeoning: 1 Str damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier.
Only 1 combination strike can be used per turn, but this improves to twice at 5th level. (That or no limit, leave it to BAB and your success chances.)

Flexible Strikes (Ex):
You know how to use your weapons to the maximum. You may apply any standard damage type (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) with any weapon.

AvatarVecna
2019-12-11, 10:13 PM
A few vague mechanical ideas bouncing around in my head:

0) Pounce. You're not a caster, you basically need it.
1) Some kind of Bonus Feat progression where the only options to take are "anything that requires TWF or MWF to qualify for".
2) Roll twice and take the better roll whenever you attempt a disarm/trip/sunder while dual-wielding/multiweapon fighting.
3) "Whirlwind Attack, but it's a friendly AoE on all enemies in your reach that gives half damage on a Ref save".
4) A capstone where the area of #3 becomes "anybody who was within reach of me during the single move I took this turn".
5) AoE Intimidate, with some kinda bonus on the roll related to the number of enemies you've hurt this turn?
6) Better versions of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz.
7) More skill points, more class skills, and a Good Reflex save.

Demidos
2019-12-12, 02:42 AM
Glad you liked the ideas!

I actually originally planned for battlefield calm to allow for a free move action every turn, but refrained largely because I don't know the balance level the OP is playing at -- at low optimization levels, this can make the tempest feel incredibly overpowering / oppressive to other classes, while at mid optimization levels I assume by the time a player has gotten to 6th level and started a PRC they already have some variant of pounce, since as you mentioned it is pretty critical for warriors (at high op, obviously no one is playing this class :P).

I also toyed with the thought of making it threaten a larger range (e.g. 20 feet instead of 5 feet) and letting him interrupt spellcasting, but none of those ideas really seemed better than a slightly juiced up mage-slayer, so I just gave him the feat and called it a day.

ben-zayb
2019-12-12, 03:30 AM
If the class concept for Tempest is to be The Master of Two-Weapon Fighting, give it more Rend-like abilities that trigger off of hitting with both weapons in succession.

As a somewhat thematic example, the thematic effects below trigger after a successful mainhand attacks is followed by a successful offhand attacks of the same damage type. You can maybe dial it down by offering a fortitude save.

Golden Armor Overdrive (Piercing+Piercing) With a swift combination of attacks precisely driven to a single point, you expose a critical weakness in the enemy's defense.
Once affected by Golden Armor Overdrive, the effect last for the rest of the encounter. Whenever the eneny is neither fighting defensively nor using total defense, any weapon attack against it hits touch AC and automatically threatens a critical hit.

Bloody Stream (Slashing+Slashing) The grisly yet harmonious dance of your blades leaves an ever-deepening gash in the enemy's wounds.
Bloody Stream prevents the effects of an enemy's regeneration and fast healing for one round. A creature without regeneration or fast healing, or whose abilities are currently prevented from working, instead takes bleeding damage equal to the offhand weapon damage each round until it dies or receives healing.

Diamond is Breakable (Bludgeoning+Bludgeoning) "Resilient" just means you have to hit it more and hit it harder.
Diamond is Breakable enables you to ignore a target's hardness and damage reduction. Furthermore, each time a target is affected by Diamond is Breakable, any hardness and damage reduction it has are halved (rounded up) until it gets repaired or receives healing.

These are just basic examples, and you can try coming up with more combination attacks (piercing mainhand + slashing offhand, etc.). Maybe a knockback affect? Something that can drag enemies? Cut off its movement speed? Anything other than generic +bonus would be interesting.

EDIT: Didn't realize Demidos already advised something similar. Those actually look way more balanced.

stack
2019-12-12, 08:55 AM
Could look at the dual wielding sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dual-wielding) from the PF 3pp Spheres of Might for ideas. Use those abilities, use them as inspiration, then fill out the class either with fixed abilities or let them pick from a menu.

martixy
2019-12-13, 01:13 AM
Since I was gonna do it anyway, I went and reworked the Tempest properly and posted it over in the Homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604677-The-Tempest-PrC-Rework-CA-p-81-PEACH&p=24307245#post24307245), properly formatted, with design notes and all that jazz. It went through several changes, but after the 3rd design iteration I think I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It was, of course, built for the purposes of my own game.

I'd love some feedback, here or in its own thread.

RNightstalker
2019-12-15, 11:00 AM
Since I was gonna do it anyway, I went and reworked the Tempest properly and posted it over in the Homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604677-The-Tempest-PrC-Rework-CA-p-81-PEACH&p=24307245#post24307245), properly formatted, with design notes and all that jazz. It went through several changes, but after the 3rd design iteration I think I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It was, of course, built for the purposes of my own game.

I'd love some feedback, here or in its own thread.

I do like reworking the TWF tree as I never thought of that as a feat tax before, but man is it.

Eye of the Tempest is good as the basic first part, but all the extra fluff is a little too much IMO.

martixy
2019-12-15, 11:39 AM
I do like reworking the TWF tree as I never thought of that as a feat tax before, but man is it.

Eye of the Tempest is good as the basic first part, but all the extra fluff is a little too much IMO.

You will have to elaborate because I have no idea what the heck that's supposed to mean.
P.S. Easier feedback is why I included design notes in my post.

RNightstalker
2019-12-15, 09:22 PM
You will have to elaborate because I have no idea what the heck that's supposed to mean.
P.S. Easier feedback is why I included design notes in my post.

The points you earn to spend on other abilities like combination strike, etc.

martixy
2019-12-15, 09:28 PM
The points you earn to spend on other abilities like combination strike, etc.

Way too laconic for me to respond in a meaningful way.

RNightstalker
2019-12-15, 09:42 PM
The accumulated bonus from Eye of the Tempest that you can use to spend on the higher level cf's, is too much.