Mirror Image and odd interactions

[RSP]

So this week’s session had something I hadn’t seen before: Arcane Archer’s Curving Shot used on an NPC that had Mirror Image up.

RAW, the wording of the two features seem to mean if the AA attacks the MI caster, rolls and ends up targeting an image, and misses; then the AA can use their BA to Curving Shot and Attack the caster again (and rolling a d20 to see if they target an image again), since with MI they actually change their target to the Image and not the caster, prior to their attack roll.

Did I miss anything that would mean the AA can’t BA Attack the caster again?

[tKUUNK]

RAW I think you have it right.

And personally, if the arcane archer is willing to burn their curving shot to do this, it seems perfectly acceptable.

[JNAProductions]

RAW you might be right, but I think an easy ruling is that you can simply make another attack against the caster of Mirror Image, complete with another roll to see if you hit an image.

[AdAstra]

RAW you might be right, but I think an easy ruling is that you can simply make another attack against the caster of Mirror Image, complete with another roll to see if you hit an image.

That, doesn't sound any different from their ruling? Like that sounds like the exact same thing is happening in your scenario and their scenario. I might just be misinterpreting though.

As for the OP, I see no reason why your ruling isn't the clear result of the rules as written, and it makes perfect sense.

[JNAProductions]

That, doesn't sound any different from their ruling? Like that sounds like the exact same thing is happening in your scenario and their scenario.

Precisely-I think they used an easy ruling. And that's what I'd do.

I'm affirming their choice. :P

[AdAstra]

Precisely-I think they used an easy ruling. And that's what I'd do.

I'm affirming their choice. :P

Sorry, it's just that "you might be right, but I think..." makes it sound like you were trying to offer an alternative of some sort. I see what you mean now.

[JNAProductions]

Sorry, it's just that "you might be right, but I think..." makes it sound like you were trying to offer an alternative of some sort. I see what you mean now.

Ah, I garch.

I meant the "RAW, you might be right," and the rest of it to be mostly unrelated. Because their reading of RAW is maybe accurate (I'm AFB) but I think their handling of it in the actual session was spot-on.

[Tanarii]

It's easiest to think of Mirror Image caster as a single target made up of multiple sub-targets it can potentially to redirected to when with attack roll attacks.

So no, curving shot doesn't work to attack the Mirror Image caster more than once, you've already attacked the target once.

[RSP]

It's easiest to think of Mirror Image caster as a single target made up of multiple sub-targets it can potentially to redirected to when with attack roll attacks.

So no, curving shot doesn't work to attack the Mirror Image caster more than once, you've already attacked the target once.

Are you posing this as RAW, or your interpretation? Curious what you have to back up the “multiple subtargets” if you’re saying this is RAW.

[TheUser]

So uhh. I hate to be that guy but Mirror Image only changes the target of the attack, it doesn't make it "miss" which might mean it doesn't RAW interact with curving shot.


Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S

Duration: 1 minute

Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.

Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.

If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack’s target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.

A duplicate’s AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.

A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.

Curving shot requires that the attack miss but technically you've only changed the target. It can still "hit" a clone and not trigger Curving Shot.

[RSP]

So uhh. I hate to be that guy but Mirror Image only changes the target of the attack, it doesn't make it "miss" which might mean it doesn't RAW interact with curving shot.


Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S

Duration: 1 minute

Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.

Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.

If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack’s target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.

A duplicate’s AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.

A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.

Curving shot requires that the attack miss but technically you've only changed the target. It can still "hit" a clone and not trigger Curving Shot.

Right. The attack on the MI missed.

[NaughtyTiger]

It's easiest to think of Mirror Image caster as a single target made up of multiple sub-targets it can potentially to redirected to when with attack roll attacks.

So no, curving shot doesn't work to attack the Mirror Image caster more than once, you've already attacked the target once.

Would you apply that logic to enchantment wizards instinctive charm?

[Erys]

Since Mirror Image duplicates have AC's, they can be potentially missed.

Curved Shot activates on a miss... But you cannot re-target the creature using Mirror Image.

Mirror Image does not change your target, it redirects the Attack, and the ability specifically calls out 'a new target within 60 feet'.

[RSP]

Since Mirror Image duplicates have AC's, they can be potentially missed.

Curved Shot activates on a miss... But you cannot re-target the creature using Mirror Image.

Mirror Image does not change your target, it redirects the Attack, and the ability specifically calls out 'a new target within 60 feet'.

MI does indeed change your target. Per the spell:

“Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.”

So the initial attack does not target the caster, but the image, per the RAW. So if you miss the image, the caster is a different target that you can now target with Curving Shot.

[da newt]

The following is logical - I don't know if it's RAW.

Mirror image creates multiple images of the caster. If these images can be the target of an attack (the whole point of the spell), and the attack misses (whether the target was the caster or a copy), then the archer can re-target one of the other images/caster (and would have no way of knowing if the first missed target was the caster or a copy).

However if the archer picks one of the copies and hits it, then there is no chance to redirect.

[Tanarii]

However if the archer picks one of the copies and hits it, then there is no chance to redirect.
It's not possible to individually target images.

[Erys]

MI does indeed change your target. Per the spell:

“Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.”

So the initial attack does not target the caster, but the image, per the RAW. So if you miss the image, the caster is a different target that you can now target with Curving Shot.

I can see why you come to this conclusion.

(I swear, if D&D would just utilize a thesaurus there would be a lot less interpretation issues with the game).

There are two points I feel need to be considered:
1) You are Targeting the creature who is using Mirror Image; the spell tries to change the Attack from caster to a duplicate.
2) You cannot target the duplicates individually as their own Targets.

Since you can never target the duplicates specifically, they can never really be Targets under the usual use of the word. Your Target is the creature using Mirror Image, if you miss him (or his duplicate) you should need to find a new Target within 60' for Curving Shot.

[Vessyra]

(I swear, if D&D would just utilize a thesaurus there would be a lot less interpretation issues with the game).


But then how would we go both up a level and down a level?

[RSP]

It's not possible to individually target images.

Where are you getting this from? RAW is silent on the issue, but certainly you can target other illusions. I’d imagine even trying to target the illusions would invoke the d20 roll from a lot of DMs.



There are two points I feel need to be considered:
1) You are Targeting the creature who is using Mirror Image; the spell tries to change the Attack from caster to a duplicate.
2) You cannot target the duplicates individually as their own Targets.

Since you can never target the duplicates specifically, they can never really be Targets under the usual use of the word. Your Target is the creature using Mirror Image, if you miss him (or his duplicate) you should need to find a new Target within 60' for Curving Shot.

Again, please quote rules if stating these points are RAW.

The spell MI clearly states the target changes from the caster to an illusion, prior to any attack roll, so the actual attack is targeting an illusion and not the caster. The illusion even has its own AC. I don’t see any logical way to conclude the AA is still targeting the caster after the MI d20 roll.

Also, why can’t someone target an illusion?

[Erys]

Where are you getting this from? RAW is silent on the issue, but certainly you can target other illusions. I’d imagine even trying to target the illusions would invoke the d20 roll from a lot of DMs.



Where in the spell does it allow you to target a duplicate?

Spells do what they say, nothing more.



Again, please quote rules if stating these points are RAW.

The spell MI clearly states the target changes from the caster to an illusion, prior to any attack roll, so the actual attack is targeting an illusion and not the caster. The illusion even has its own AC. I don’t see any logical way to conclude the AA is still targeting the caster after the MI d20 roll.

Also, why can’t someone target an illusion?

I don't think there is a clear cut RAW answer here.

I just know the spirit of the Spell is to redirect Attacks from caster to duplicate. The spirit of Curving Shot is if you miss your intended target, you can pick a new one within 60'

I would not allow an Attack that is redirected to a duplicate- but misses it- to go back to the original Target.

[RSP]

Where in the spell does it allow you to target a duplicate?

Spells do what they say, nothing more.

Indeed, and MI clearly states it changes the target of the attack to an illusion. Literally, it says “roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates.” So the spell clearly allows you to target an illusion, otherwise why say the attack now targets them? Why give them AC if they can’t be targeted? Why state what happens if an attack that targets them succeeds (they vanish)?

[Erys]

Indeed, and MI clearly states it changes the target of the attack to an illusion. Literally, it says “roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates.” So the spell clearly allows you to target an illusion, otherwise why say the attack now targets them? Why give them AC if they can’t be targeted? Why state what happens if an attack that targets them succeeds (they vanish)?

((They vanish because if they didn't the spell would be OP.))

The important part is: "...instead targets...".

You cannot just aim at the duplicates. You cannot use Magic Missile an hit the caster and all his duplicates in one fell swoop to defeat Mirror Image, nor at they affected by AE spells. The only way a duplicate can be struck is when they are hit by an Attack after it has been redirected from the Caster to the duplicate.

The world "target" in the description of the spell is probably not the same context as a the game term Target. Just like when you say, 'I attack with Magic Missile', its not an Attack (the game term where you roll a d20). Now, obviously, you can rules lawyer the fact that the spell says "instead targets" and allow an AA arrow that gets redirected to a duplicate- but misses it- to suddenly go back to the caster as a different target (procing the spell effect again) --> but that really does not seem like that is the spirit of the text at hand.

Especially since, again, they are not legal Targets in any other case.

[RSP]

((They vanish because if they didn't the spell would be OP.))

The important part is: "...instead targets...".

You cannot just aim at the duplicates. You cannot use Magic Missile an hit the caster and all his duplicates in one fell swoop to defeat Mirror Image, nor at they affected by AE spells. The only way a duplicate can be struck is when they are hit by an Attack after it has been redirected from the Caster to the duplicate.

The world "target" in the description of the spell is probably not the same context as a the game term Target. Just like when you say, 'I attack with Magic Missile', its not an Attack (the game term where you roll a d20). Now, obviously, you can rules lawyer the fact that the spell says "instead targets" and allow an AA arrow that gets redirected to a duplicate- but misses it- to suddenly go back to the caster as a different target (procing the spell effect again) --> but that really does not seem like that is the spirit of the text at hand.

Especially since, again, they are not legal Targets in any other case.

So you’re making up RAW? The spell says you can target them so you’ve decided “oh that’s a different definition of the word target, even though it’s used in the exact same way as the game term”?

Interesting.

Do you also say it’s RAW that you cannot target other illusions, such as from Major Image?

[Erys]

So you’re making up RAW? The spell says you can target them so you’ve decided “oh that’s a different definition of the word target, even though it’s used in the exact same way as the game term”?

Interesting.

Do you also say it’s RAW that you cannot target other illusions, such as from Major Image?

The spell says no such thing.

“roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates.”

You cannot independently Target the duplicates. They only become targets when the mechanic of Mirror Image comes into effect --> which is when the Creature using Mirror Image is the Target of an Attack.

You might have misinterpreted what I said; because I promise you, I am not "making up RAW" here.

[AdAstra]

So you’re making up RAW? The spell says you can target them so you’ve decided “oh that’s a different definition of the word target, even though it’s used in the exact same way as the game term”?

Interesting.

Do you also say it’s RAW that you cannot target other illusions, such as from Major Image?

Maybe by RAW? At least logically it shouldn't be possible to target an illusion deliberately without a chance of accidentally hitting the caster, since they're indistinguishable. From a functional perspective, the caster and illusions are effectively treated as a single unit, which you target, then roll to see which individual you actually target.

[TheUser]

You can't manually target the illusions from mirror image for the same reason you can't manually target the caster; you are unable to differentiate between them.

If you miss an image instead of the caster you can definitely try again to hit the caster. Curve shot specifies you can get another attack roll against a new "target" and since mirror image changed your "target" you can re-target the caster. But if you hit the image you cannot trigger curving shot; the attack hit the target it was aimed at it just wasn't the caster of the mirror image. That's not some obscure miss; it's a hit. You thought you were aiming at the caster but it turns out it was a mirror image. You hit it but the image dissappeared. You can't curve shot an attack roll that hits even if it wasn't the target you wanted. (See also Enchanter's level 6 ability, Drunk Master or Mastermind)

[RSP]

The spell says no such thing.

“roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates.”

You cannot independently Target the duplicates. They only become targets when the mechanic of Mirror Image comes into effect --> which is when the Creature using Mirror Image is the Target of an Attack.


By rule, you target the illusions on certain rolls of the d20, therefore, you have to be able to target the illusions; because if you can’t target the illusions, then how can you target the illusions?

Now, I’d imagine most DMs would have “targeting an illusion created by MI” function the same way that targeting the caster of MI works: that is, you still need to roll the d20 to see which you hit, because you cannot differentiate between the caster and illusions.

But to say you can’t target the illusions, is just flat out false.



You can't manually target the illusions from mirror image for the same reason you can't manually target the caster; you are unable to differentiate between them.

Except you can target the caster, it’s just that once you do, the effect of the spell kicks in before the attack is resolved, and may change the target of the attack.

So you can target either, however, I’d imagine most DMs would rule the spell effect works on either



But if you hit the image you cannot trigger curving shot; the attack hit the target it was aimed at it just wasn't the caster of the mirror image. That's not some obscure miss; it's a hit. You thought you were aiming at the caster but it turns out it was a mirror image. You hit it but the image dissappeared. You can't curve shot an attack roll that hits even if it wasn't the target you wanted.

Sure, but no one is claiming the MI illusion was hit.

[Erys]

By rule, you target the illusions on certain rolls of the d20, therefore, you have to be able to target the illusions; because if you can’t target the illusions, then how can you target the illusions?

Now, I’d imagine most DMs would have “targeting an illusion created by MI” function the same way that targeting the caster of MI works: that is, you still need to roll the d20 to see which you hit, because you cannot differentiate between the caster and illusions.

But to say you can’t target the illusions, is just flat out false.

You are conflating things.

The general rules for illusions is trumped by the specific text of Mirror Image.

The spell uses the word "duplicates" for a reason.

[RSP]

You are conflating things.

The general rules for illusions is trumped by the specific text of Mirror Image.

The spell uses the word "duplicates" for a reason.

How can you target the illusions if you can’t target the illusions?

And please quote the “specific text” that say you cannot target the illusions created by MI.

[Erys]

How can you target the illusions if you can’t target the illusions?

And please quote the “specific text” that say you cannot target the illusions created by MI.

By following the rules laid out in the spell: The only way to hit a duplicate is by targeting the Caster with an Attack, when he is Targeted the spell mechanic lays out a system to change the target (or redirect the attack) from the Caster to a duplicate.

Case in point, Major Image says it can create an illusion of a creature, by the general rules of illusions if I think it is real I can waste my spell slot attacking that illusory creature with Magic Missile.

By contrast, you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image with Magic Missile (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/23/magic-missile-vs-mirror-image/).

This is because the mechanics of Mirror Image are specific, the spell does only what it says it does and nothing more. You don't have to choose between the duplicates nor can you target the duplicates, they are immune to AEs and when you cast Magic Missile at a person under the effects of Mirror Image- the caster with MI takes damage while his spell remains unaffected.

[Jerrykhor]

How can you target the illusions if you can’t target the illusions?

And please quote the “specific text” that say you cannot target the illusions created by MI.

You misunderstand the way Mirror Image works. It is not a separate image made to confuse people the way other illusion spells are.

The key words are '3 duplicates appear in your space'. and 'The duplicates move with you and mimic your movements.'

The duplicates sharing your space means they are not targetable. They are all 'you'.

[RSP]

By following the rules laid out in the spell: The only way to hit a duplicate is by targeting the Caster with an Attack, when he is Targeted the spell mechanic lays out a system to change the target (or redirect the attack) from the Caster to a duplicate.

Case in point, Major Image says it can create an illusion of a creature, by the general rules of illusions if I think it is real I can waste my spell slot attacking that illusory creature with Magic Missile.

By contrast, you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image with Magic Missile (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/23/magic-missile-vs-mirror-image/).

This is because the mechanics of Mirror Image are specific, the spell does only what it says it does and nothing more. You don't have to choose between the duplicates nor can you target the duplicates, they are immune to AEs and when you cast Magic Missile at a person under the effects of Mirror Image- the caster with MI takes damage while his spell remains unaffected.

First, I don’t think you understand RAW: it has nothing to do with anyone’s tweets.

Second, no the spell doesn’t say you can’t target the illusions created. Your reasoning that since you can end up targeting an illusion as an effect of the spell, then it must be that rolling the d20 is the only way to target the illusion, is just bad logic. As you say, the spell only does what it says, and it says if you target the caster then you might actually change to an illusion, but does not say you cannot target the illusions.

Third, what are these “general rules of illusions” you keep referencing?

[RSP]

You misunderstand the way Mirror Image works. It is not a separate image made to confuse people the way other illusion spells are.

The key words are '3 duplicates appear in your space'. and 'The duplicates move with you and mimic your movements.'

The duplicates sharing your space means they are not targetable. They are all 'you'.

I understand the RAW, fine. You seem to assume rules that aren’t written there. For instance, two or more creatures can share a space, just like the duplicates do with this spell.

The RAW states what happens when the caster gets targeted by an attack, however, nothing in the RAW of the spell states the illusions cannot be attacked.

Again, I think it’s a good idea that targeting the illusions would require a d20 roll, just as if you’d attacked the caster, but that’s not RAW; and it’s certainly not the same as saying you can’t target them.

Also, again, how can you then target the illusions with an attack (and roll to see if you hit), if the illusions are not targetable, as you insist they are?

[Erys]

First, I don’t think you understand RAW: it has nothing to do with anyone’s tweets.

Second, no the spell doesn’t say you can’t target the illusions created. Your reasoning that since you can end up targeting an illusion as an effect of the spell, then it must be that rolling the d20 is the only way to target the illusion, is just bad logic. As you say, the spell only does what it says, and it says if you target the caster then you might actually change to an illusion, but does not say you cannot target the illusions.

Third, what are these “general rules of illusions” you keep referencing?

First, JC tweets have value. It helps clarify the RAW. Can you find any text supporting the ability to target a Mirror Image duplicate with Magic Missile?

Second, the spell tells you exactly what it does, nothing less and nothing more. You are adding an additional effect to the spell by allowing the duplicates to be targeted independently, which is a fine house rule, but hardly RAW.

Third, the general rules of illusions are how most illusions are interacted with... which can be found in the text of their respective Spells. Generally, if you make something with illusions (like with Minor or Major Illusion) that something seems real --> creatures can act, react, and interact with these illusions to various extents. Mirror Image has no such language in its spell block. It makes no allowance for people to target the duplicates, not even with Magic Missile (the spell that always hits what its aimed at).

[Aimeryan]

First, JC tweets have value.

They have personal value, to you. Otherwise, they have no value in a RAW discussion.



Second, the spell tells you exactly what it does, nothing less and nothing more. You are adding an additional effect to the spell by allowing the duplicates to be targeted independently, which is a fine house rule, but hardly RAW.

The spell creates illusions. Illusions can be targeted. The spell does not state the illusions can not be targeted. That is all the RAW there is, which clearly supports targeting them - now, the DM may choose to rule that you have roll the d20 as if the illusion was the caster if they so wish.

~~~

All of that is besides the point, however; if trying to target the caster fails due to the d20 and instead targets an illusion then the caster was not the target of the attack and if it misses it can be curved back to the caster (triggering the d20 roll, again).

[RSP]

First, JC tweets have value. It helps clarify the RAW. Can you find any text supporting the ability to target a Mirror Image duplicate with Magic Missile?

All you’ve done here is shown you don’t understand RAW: if you’re using tweets to determine the designer’s intent, then you’re talking about RAI, not RAW.



Second, the spell tells you exactly what it does, nothing less and nothing more. You are adding an additional effect to the spell by allowing the duplicates to be targeted independently, which is a fine house rule, but hardly RAW.

So, again, where does it say the illusions cannot be targeted? This is something you are making up.



Third, the general rules of illusions are how most illusions are interacted with... which can be found in the text of their respective Spells.


If they’re the rules associated with specific spells, then in no way are they “general rules of illusions”: they are, in fact, specific rules to those spells and only state what that specific spell does.



Generally, if you make something with illusions (like with Minor or Major Illusion) that something seems real --> creatures can act, react, and interact with these illusions to various extents. Mirror Image has no such language in its spell block. It makes no allowance for people to target the duplicates, not even with Magic Missile (the spell that always hits what its aimed at).

So in your not-RAW, not general-vs-specific-based-logic, you cannot target any illusion made with Major Image, Silent Image, Mislead, etc., because they don’t state the illusions created are targetable?

Is that correct?

Can you give an example of an illusion spell that discusses targeting?

[Segev]

If we step out of the strict rules model for a moment and just picture what is happening in the fiction of the game, an arrow that hits a mirror image has hit and passed through a distinct copy of the mage. It makes perfect sense that a “retarget” option would let it beer off to try to hit another image, with the usual means of determining if the new image is the real mage or just another illusion.

[Erys]

They have personal value, to you. Otherwise, they have no value in a RAW discussion.




The spell creates illusions. Illusions can be targeted. The spell does not state the illusions can not be targeted. That is all the RAW there is, which clearly supports targeting them - now, the DM may choose to rule that you have roll the d20 as if the illusion was the caster if they so wish.

~~~

All of that is besides the point, however; if trying to target the caster fails due to the d20 and instead targets an illusion then the caster was not the target of the attack and if it misses it can be curved back to the caster (triggering the d20 roll, again).

Yes, the lead designer of the game and Sage Advice carry weight.

Spells do what they do and nothing more. Please show me where there is ANY text that supports you being able to target a Mirror Image duplicate with Magic Missile.

(You can't).

[Erys]

All you’ve done here is shown you don’t understand RAW: if you’re using tweets to determine the designer’s intent, then you’re talking about RAI, not RAW.



So, again, where does it say the illusions cannot be targeted? This is something you are making up.



If they’re the rules associated with specific spells, then in no way are they “general rules of illusions”: they are, in fact, specific rules to those spells and only state what that specific spell does.



So in your not-RAW, not general-vs-specific-based-logic, you cannot target any illusion made with Major Image, Silent Image, Mislead, etc., because they don’t state the illusions created are targetable?

Is that correct?

Can you give an example of an illusion spell that discusses targeting?

You are really twisting my words here.... not cool.

Major illusion (for example) says specifically you create an image of a creature (or object, etc...) that 'looks real until interacted with'; this means you if you see an illusion of a cat, you can target it with spells like Magic Missile, because you think its real (until proven otherwise).

Mirror Image does not create a creature in its own space that you can confuse as real. Mirror Image creates duplicates that share the casters space and which are indistinguishable from the caster. You cannot target them individually --> they are only interacted with when responding to Attacks made against the caster.

To put this another way, if you make a Major illusion of yourself standing in the space next to you --> (assuming a failed INT save) an attacker would have to choose who to target, both look real, you could guess wrong and hit the Image with a Magic Missile. On the flip side: you do not 'choose your target' with Mirror Image, the only way to interact with the duplicates is spelled out in the spell bloc (via an Attack).

If you want to change the rules at your table and allow people to target MI duplicates, that fine. Just know that doing so is not RAW.

[RSP]

You are really twisting my words here.... not cool.

What have I twisted?



Major illusion (for example) says specifically you create an image of a creature (or object, etc...) that 'looks real until interacted with'; this means you if you see an illusion of a cat, you can target it with spells like Magic Missile, because you think its real (until proven otherwise).

You’ve made the claim that since Mirror Image does not state the illusions it creates can be targeted, they can’t be targeted. Correct?

Major Illusion doesn’t state anything about targeting either, yet you don’t seem to have that same “it doesn’t say you can target it” issue with it.

You’re being rather inconsistent.



Mirror Image does not create a creature in its own space that you can confuse as real. Mirror Image creates duplicates that share the casters space and which are indistinguishable from the caster. You cannot target them individually --> they are only interacted with when responding to Attacks made against the caster.

Creatures and objects can share the same space, in the same way the illusions of MI do. So saying you can’t target two things in the same space, is just wrong and not supported by RAW.

Your argument that they cannot be targeted is something you’ve made up, hence why there is no rule you can quote to support it.



To put this another way, if you make a Major illusion of yourself standing in the space next to you --> (assuming a failed INT save) an attacker would have to choose who to target, both look real, you could guess wrong and hit the Image with a Magic Missile. On the flip side: you do not 'choose your target' with Mirror Image, the only way to interact with the duplicates is spelled out in the spell bloc (via an Attack).

You always choose your target, even with MI; your statement that you don’t choose a target is completely wrong. MI just has an effect that kicks in after you’ve selected the caster as your target. That effect is to roll a d20 to see whether your target changes to an illusion.

You still choose your target, it just may change.

[Erys]

What have I twisted?



You’ve made the claim that since Mirror Image does not state the illusions it creates can be targeted, they can’t be targeted. Correct?

Major Illusion doesn’t state anything about targeting either, yet you don’t seem to have that same “it doesn’t say you can target it” issue with it.

You’re being rather inconsistent.



Creatures and objects can share the same space, in the same way the illusions of MI do. So saying you can’t target two things in the same space, is just wrong and not supported by RAW.

Your argument that they cannot be targeted is something you’ve made up, hence why there is no rule you can quote to support it.



You always choose your target, even with MI; your statement that you don’t choose a target is completely wrong. MI just has an effect that kicks in after you’ve selected the caster as your target. That effect is to roll a d20 to see whether your target changes to an illusion.

You still choose your target, it just may change.

I have show you support for my claim using Sage Advice.

Show me support for your claim that you can target a MI duplicate with Magic Missile.

[Erys]

Also;




Creatures and objects can share the same space, in the same way the illusions of MI do.

A Major Illusion duplicating the visual effects of Mirror Image in no way share the same effects.

[RSP]

I have show you support for my claim using Sage Advice.

Show me support for your claim that you can target a MI duplicate with Magic Missile.

No, you haven’t. And again, if you think SA and tweets are RAW, you are wrong.

I have no idea what you’re talking about with MM, as I haven’t ever said anything about MM in this thread.

Further, MM specifically only targets creatures, so, RAW, you can’t ever target an illusion with MM.

I have no idea why you want to bring Magic Missile into this discussion, but it’s becoming clear you don’t really understand what’s being discussed. If you have a question about Magic Missile and how it interacts with Mirror Image, I’d suggest Googling for an answer, or start a new thread. I’d suggest you research RAW and RAI before that to understand the difference between the two, if you intend to use either term in your thread.


Also;



A Major Illusion duplicating the visual effects of Mirror Image in no way share the same effects.

Also: I never claimed they share the effects (or claimed anything close to that).

If you think Major Illusion is the only way creatures and/or objects can share the same space, you are wrong.

[NaughtyTiger]

By contrast, you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image with Magic Missile (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/23/magic-missile-vs-mirror-image/).

that isn't what the sage advice says. the entire thread says MM is not fooled by Mirror Image. it does not say that MM cannot choose to target an illusory duplicate.


By following the rules laid out in the spell: Case in point, Major Image says it can create an illusion of a creature, by the general rules of illusions if I think it is real I can waste my spell slot attacking that illusory creature with Magic Missile.

Magic Missile says "Each dart hits a creature of your choice". so per the rules of the spell, they won't hit a Major Image cuz it isn't a creature.

I don't think magic missile is a good example for dealing with illusions.

[Erys]

that isn't what the sage advice says. the entire thread says MM is not fooled by Mirror Image. it does not say that MM cannot choose to target an illusory duplicate.

Yeah, I was there...

It says, "The mirror image spell has no effect on magic missile, which doesn't involve an attack."

Mirror Image duplicate interact with Attacks that are against the Creature using the spell. You cannot target them independently, and you do not have to choose between them and the caster before attacking.

[Erys]

No, you haven’t. And again, if you think SA and tweets are RAW, you are wrong.

I have no idea what you’re talking about with MM, as I haven’t ever said anything about MM in this thread.

Further, MM specifically only targets creatures, so, RAW, you can’t ever target an illusion with MM.

I have no idea why you want to bring Magic Missile into this discussion, but it’s becoming clear you don’t really understand what’s being discussed. If you have a question about Magic Missile and how it interacts with Mirror Image, I’d suggest Googling for an answer, or start a new thread. I’d suggest you research RAW and RAI before that to understand the difference between the two, if you intend to use either term in your thread.



Also: I never claimed they share the effects (or claimed anything close to that).

If you think Major Illusion is the only way creatures and/or objects can share the same space, you are wrong.

The point of Magic Missile is to show that you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image. If you could target them, then you could strike them with a Magic Missile but --> You can't.

On the flip side, many Illusions can create images of Creatures which enemies can falsely believe as real... If you opt to say you cannot target an Illusory Creature with Magic Missile, then you are allowing a first level spell to be able to defeat nearly an entire school of magic. That is certainly not in the spirit of the Rules.

[NaughtyTiger]

The point of Magic Missile is to show that you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image. If you could target them, then you could strike them with a Magic Missile but --> You can't.


Yeah, I was there...

It says, "The mirror image spell has no effect on magic missile, which doesn't involve an attack."

Mirror Image duplicate interact with Attacks that are against the Creature using the spell. You cannot target them independently, and you do not have to choose between them and the caster before attacking.

My point is that you used the sage advice to defend "You cannot target them independently". The sage advice does not suggest nor state that you cannot.

[Erys]

My point was that you used that Sage Advice to defend "You cannot target them independently". That sage advice does not state nor suggest that. Thus your interpretation is as valid as Rsp29a's

It says Magic Missile does not interact with Mirror Image.

Allowing someone to target a duplicate directly contradicts this.

[RSP]

The point of Magic Missile is to show that you cannot target the duplicates of Mirror Image. If you could target them, then you could strike them with a Magic Missile but --> You can't.

On the flip side, many Illusions can create images of Creatures which enemies can falsely believe as real... If you opt to say you cannot target an Illusory Creature with Magic Missile, then you are allowing a first level spell to be able to defeat nearly an entire school of magic. That is certainly not in the spirit of the Rules.

You aren’t comprehending what’s being discussed. The issue with MM is it specifically only targets creatures, so it cannot target illusions (from Mirror Image or otherwise). Using that as an example that illusions can’t be targeted by anything, is bad logic. It’s similar to you saying “Eldritch Blast cannot target a door, so nothing in 5e can target doors” since EB can also only target creatures.

You’ve yet to actually defend any of your points with RAW. I understand you want to discuss MM and it’s interaction with MI, but it sounds like you’re already involved with a thread on that. I’d suggest going back to that thread if you want to discuss MM and how it interacts with MI.

[NaughtyTiger]

It says Magic Missile does not interact with Mirror Image.

incorrect read of the tweet "The mirror image spell has no effect on magic missile, which doesn't involve an attack"
it doesn't interact because it doesn't involve an attack.

MM and that tweet is a dead end.

[Erys]

Ah... i see where you are going.

magic missile only affects creatures. Thus no, magic missile won't interact with Mirror Image (Rsp29a already stated this in his rebuttal).
That does NOT state that other attacks cannot target a duplicate.

MM is a dead end.

Not as much as you might think.

Can you show me anything that suggest that the duplicates in Mirror Image can be targeted by an Attack? You can't, because nothing in Mirror Image says the duplicates are creatures or illusions of creatures (whereas other illusion spells, like Major Image, does say 'you create the image of a creature...'.

Mirror Image does what is says, nothing more.

The original question is: An Arcane Archer Targeting a caster using Mirror Image, having the Attack change to a duplicate but somehow miss --> can that attack be redirected into the caster.

While the spell does say the target changes from the caster to the duplicate there is technically an argument for allowing Curving Shot to re-target the caster. I think the spirit of how Mirror Image works you shouldn't rule that way. Since the MI duplicates are not legal targets by themselves I feel it is more accurate to treat the caster AND the images as the Target of the Attack; so if the aforementioned arrow misses, the AA would have to find a new target within 60' other than said caster.

Hopefully this clears things up. How an AA uses Curving Shot when he misses a caster using Mirror Image is not clear cut and open for debate. But how Mirror Image works regarding targeting its duplicates is not.

[NaughtyTiger]

whereas other illusion spells, like Major Image, does say 'you create the image of a creature...'.


Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space.

My wizard is a creature, so 3 duplicate images of my wizard, would be 3 duplicate images of a creature.


Since the MI duplicates are not legal targets by themselves restating your position is not evidence.


But how Mirror Image works regarding targeting its duplicates is not. restating your position is not evidence.


the messed up thing is: originally, i was in the "you can't intentionally target a duplicate camp", but i haven't seen good arguments for it. this thread may have flipped me, and I hate agreeing with Rsp29a.

[Erys]

You aren’t comprehending what’s being discussed. The issue with MM is it specifically only targets creatures, so it cannot target illusions (from Mirror Image or otherwise). Using that as an example that illusions can’t be targeted by anything, is bad logic. It’s similar to you saying “Eldritch Blast cannot target a door, so nothing in 5e can target doors” since EB can also only target creatures.

You’ve yet to actually defend any of your points with RAW. I understand you want to discuss MM and it’s interaction with MI, but it sounds like you’re already involved with a thread on that. I’d suggest going back to that thread if you want to discuss MM and how it interacts with MI.

Insults and lack of evidence aside, lets see if we can make some headway.

Baby steps: Do you agree or disagree that you can target an illusion of a creature (that is not known to be an illusion) with Magic Missile.

Why or why not?

[Erys]

My wizard is a creature, so 3 duplicate images of my wizard, would be 3 duplicate images of a creature.

restating your position is not evidence.

restating your position is not evidence.


the messed up thing is: originally, i was in the "you can't intentionally target a duplicate camp", but i haven't seen good arguments for it. this thread may have flipped me, and I hate agreeing with Rsp29a.

Three duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you.

They are not labeled Creatures (illusory or otherwise), they are indistinguishable from you yet you do not have to 'choose between them' when casting a spell at the Caster... in fact, if you cast Magic Missile or Hold Person, it can only hit the Caster. You cannot waste a Spell on Mirror Image duplicates like you could if you think a Major Image is a real threat.

Your turn, where is the support that they can be targeted individually?

[NaughtyTiger]

Three duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you.

They are not labeled Creatures (illusory or otherwise), they are indistinguishable from you yet you do not have to 'choose between them' when casting a spell at the Caster... in fact, if you cast Magic Missile or Hold Person, it can only hit the Caster. You cannot waste a Spell on Mirror Image duplicates like you could if you think a Major Image is a real threat.

Your turn, where is the support that they can be targeted individually?

i jumped on the thread to point out that you misstated JC's statement in his Sage Advice tweet. I did that...

but i will address your last question anyhoo:
Your assumption:
You can target an illusion of a creature from Major Image.
Major Image creates an illusion of a creature. Nothing in the spell RAW says it creates a targetable creature (or that is it labeled as a Creature). It is reasonable RAI that a seemingly real illusory creature can be targeted.

You believe that: the 3 duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you do not seem as real as an illusion from Major Image of yourself . That is a valid interpretation, but it is not RAW.

I believe that: Given 3 duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you. These illusions are real enough that they are indistinguishable from me (my wizard).
If I can target an illusion (especially a realistic looking one), then I can target one of the 4 apparent creatures in that space. This is a valid interpretation, but it is not RAW.
It doesn't matter, cuz the rules of Mirror Image will kick in, and there is a chance that the attack will be redirected.

[NaughtyTiger]

Since you can never target the duplicates specifically, they can never really be Targets under the usual use of the word. Your Target is the creature using Mirror Image, if you miss him (or his duplicate) you should need to find a new Target within 60' for Curving Shot.

Can I reframe this for a moment?
What if instead of Mirror Image, it was Enchantment Wizard's Instinctive Charm?

Arcane Archer targets the wizard, she "diverts the attack". " the [archer] must target the [orc] that is closest to it", and the archer misses. can the archer "use a bonus action to reroll the attack roll against a different target within 60 feet of the original target." where the different target is the wizard?

I say, yes, because the archer didn't miss the wizard, he targeted and missed the orc.

[RSP]

Not as much as you might think.

Can you show me anything that suggest that the duplicates in Mirror Image can be targeted by an Attack? You can't, because nothing in Mirror Image says the duplicates are creatures or illusions of creatures (whereas other illusion spells, like Major Image, does say 'you create the image of a creature...'.


MI certainly creates images of a creature (the caster). Further, the spell absolutely stated you can target the images: again, if you can’t target the illusions, then how can you target the illusions (which is the whole point of the spell’s effect)?

I’ve shown RAW supporting this; you’ve presented nothing as evidence.

[RSP]

Insults and lack of evidence aside, lets see if we can make some headway.

Baby steps: Do you agree or disagree that you can target an illusion of a creature (that is not known to be an illusion) with Magic Missile.

Why or why not?

Up to the DM. RAW is silent on what happens if you try target something that is not a legal target, outside of an optional rule in XGtE (away from book so cant quote). It’s the old “I Eldritch Blast the treasure chest!” You can only EB creatures, so a treasure chest is safe, but if it’s actually a mimic, then you’ll be able to EB it.

But again, I’ve yet to see any actual evidence from the RAW from your end.

[Erys]

i jumped on the thread to point out that you misstated JC's statement in his Sage Advice tweet. I did that...

but i will address your last question anyhoo:
Your assumption:
You can target an illusion of a creature from Major Image.
Major Image creates an illusion of a creature. Nothing in the spell RAW says it creates a targetable creature (or that is it labeled as a Creature). It is reasonable RAI that a seemingly real illusory creature can be targeted.

You believe that: the 3 duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you do not seem as real as an illusion from Major Image of yourself . That is a valid interpretation, but it is not RAW.

I believe that: Given 3 duplicates of yourself that are indistinguishable from you. These illusions are real enough that they are indistinguishable from me (my wizard).
If I can target an illusion (especially a realistic looking one), then I can target one of the 4 apparent creatures in that space. This is a valid interpretation, but it is not RAW.
It doesn't matter, cuz the rules of Mirror Image will kick in, and there is a chance that the attack will be redirected.

That is not what I believe...

What we know:
The RAW says you can Target Creatures.

The RAW within illusion spells (such as Major Image) is that they can 'create Images* of Creatures' that "seem completely real".

The RAW within Mirror Image in no way quantifies the duplicates** it creates as creatures. The only rules regarding how the duplicates interact with things is the mechanics given against Attacks.

Therefore, I believe you cannot arbitrarily target MI duplicates.

*Notice: Major Image, like most illusion spells, define its illusion as an "image".
**Mirror Image however does not use the word "image" it uses the word "duplicate". This matters. The only other spell that comes to mind that also uses the word "duplicate" is Simulacrum. The Simulacrum, like the duplicates from Mirror Image get destroyed when hit - whereas "images" created by Illusions remain and only become transparent and faint. However, unlike MI, Simulacrum does spell out specifically that it is a Creature, and therefore Targetable.

[NaughtyTiger]

The RAW says you can Target Creatures.
we agree on this. yay?

The RAW within illusion spells (such as Major Image) is that they can 'create Images* of Creatures' that "seem completely real".
we agree on this. yay?


The RAW within Mirror Image in no way quantifies the duplicates** it creates as creatures.
The RAW within Major Image in no way quantifies the images it creates as creatures. An image of an orc is not an orc.



Okay, so you believe that "Images of Creatures that seem completely real" can be targeted, but "Duplicates of Creatures that are indistinguishable from real" cannot be targeted.
Again, valid interpretation, but not RAW.


any chance to move away from illusions onto other cases of redirection, like instinctive charm?

[Erys]

Up to the DM. RAW is silent on what happens if you try target something that is not a legal target, outside of an optional rule in XGtE (away from book so cant quote). It’s the old “I Eldritch Blast the treasure chest!” You can only EB creatures, so a treasure chest is safe, but if it’s actually a mimic, then you’ll be able to EB it.

But again, I’ve yet to see any actual evidence from the RAW from your end.

That is a false equivalency, sir.

Major Image by RAW creates Images of Creatures (or Objects) that can be believed to be real. Until the spell is defeated, the illusions are treated as real (within the parameters of the individual spell) and as such, they can be targeted like any other Creature or Object.

To say otherwise is to suggest that the writers of the game were so inept, they let the RAW allow an entire school of magic be rendered useless.

I really don't see any RAW supporting this scenario:
"Oh no, a Troll" Bob the warrior warns his companions as he grabs a javelin.

"Wait, nevermind... I can't target it so its just an illusion. Pretty good one though, had me fooled for a moment."

[Erys]

we agree on this. yay?


The RAW within Major Image in no way quantifies the images it creates as creatures.



Okay, so you believe that "Images of Creatures that seem completely real" can be targeted, but "Duplicates of Creatures that are indistinguishable from real" cannot be targeted.
Again, valid interpretation, but not RAW.

Please take a moment to re-read my note at the bottom of the post you are replying to, I have here below:


*Notice: Major Image, like most illusion spells, define its illusion as an "image".
**Mirror Image however does not use the word "image" it uses the word "duplicate". This matters. The only other spell that comes to mind that also uses the word "duplicate" is Simulacrum. The Simulacrum, like the duplicates from Mirror Image get destroyed when hit - whereas "images" created by Illusions remain and only become transparent and faint. However, unlike MI, Simulacrum does spell out specifically that it is a Creature, and therefore Targetable.

The distinction and usage between Image and Duplicate is intentional.

When Major Image says 'it creates Images of Creatures that seem real until discovered otherwise' --> it creates a Creature. Creatures can be Targeted.

When Mirror Image says 'it creates duplicates that look like the caster' it never actually qualifies them as Creatures (by contrast, the other spell that makes a Duplicate does take the time to spell out that it is in fact a Creature). Without this qualification, they are not independently targetable. Mirror Image Duplicates are not Creatures.

[NaughtyTiger]

When Major Image says 'it creates Images of Creatures that seem real until discovered otherwise' --> it creates a Creature.

NO, it does NOT create a Creature. It explicitly says "IMAGE of ... a Creature". Again, an image of an orc is not an orc.

Your argument is based on Image of Creature == Creature, but [Illusory] Duplicate of Creature =/= Creature. It is a valid interpretation ,but that is not RAW.

[Segev]

I just want to note that 5e is a system specifically designed for the DM to rule to support the fiction layer. If it doesn't make sense to you that it's impossible to target an illusory image you mistake for the real thing, then discuss with your DM whether he wants to run it that way. I'd say that the fact we're having these arguments with people disputing the meanings of words means we're well into "interpretation" and not "clear RAW." Thus, DMs must make rulings. And those rulings should be in favor of supporting whatever the DM thinks makes the most sense in the fiction layer. What are the rules modeling? Rule such that they model it well, rather than such that they create stupid outcomes. Whatever you believe "good modeling" and "stupid outcomes" are.

[Erys]

NO, it does NOT create a Creature. It explicitly says "IMAGE of ... a Creature". Again, an image of an orc is not an orc.

Your argument is based on Image of Creature == Creature, but Duplicate of Creature =/= Creature. It is a valid interpretation ,but that is not RAW.

Major Image says, 'An Image of a Creature you believe to be REAL'. (So, yeah, if I think an Image of a Creature is Real, then I can interact with the illusion as such, until I discover otherwise).

Simulacrum says, "the duplicate is a Creature..." (Like MI it looks just like the caster too, but still its defined specifically as a Creature in the spell bloc).

My argument is: Mirror Image does not have or use this language. It makes duplicates of the Caster and defines a mechanic for interacting with said duplicates --> but it never defines its duplicates as "Creatures" in any capacity.

[NaughtyTiger]

Major Image says, 'An Image of a Creature you believe to be REAL'. (So, yeah, if I think an Image of a Creature is Real, then I can interact with the illusion as such, until I discover otherwise).

Simulacrum says, "the duplicate is a Creature..." (Like MI it looks just like the caster too, but still its defined specifically as a Creature in the spell bloc).

My argument is: Mirror Image does not have or use this language. It makes duplicates of the Caster and defines a mechanic for interacting with said duplicates --> but it never defines its duplicates as "Creatures" in any capacity.


At least you moved away from An Image of a Creature is a creature. So we are in agreement there.
we agree that illusory duplicates aren't creatures. so that's good.
we agree that you can target things that aren't creatures. (i hope)
I am not convinced why a duplicate of a creature is not targetable but an image of a creature is (and that's okay)
I am not swayed by your simulacrum argument, duplicate is not a PHB keyword. (and that's okay)

Again, your interpretation is valid, but it AIN'T RAW. You are still a good person (i assume)

Can the archer re-target an enchantment wizard that used Instinctive Charm?
Yes, ultimately, the archer didnt target the wizard

[RSP]

My argument is: Mirror Image does not have or use this language. It makes duplicates of the Caster and defines a mechanic for interacting with said duplicates --> but it never defines its duplicates as "Creatures" in any capacity.

And nowhere in the RAW is any of this relevant. It is, in fact, completely made up by you.

[Erys]

At least you moved away from An Image of a Creature is a creature. So we are in agreement there.
we agree that illusory duplicates aren't creatures. so that's good.
we agree that you can target things that aren't creatures. (i hope)
I am not convinced why a duplicate of a creature is not targetable but an image of a creature is (and that's okay)
I am not swayed by your simulacrum argument, duplicate is not a PHB keyword. (and that's okay)

Again, your interpretation is valid, but it AIN'T RAW. You are still a good person (i assume)

Can the archer re-target an enchantment wizard that used Instinctive Charm?
Yes, ultimately, the archer didnt target the wizard

My stance has not wavered, I have not 'moved away' from anything.

Your behavior and constant misrepresentation in this discussion has been unfortunate.

Until you can bring some written evidence to support the idea that you can target a duplicate of Mirror Image, we are done here.

[Erys]

And nowhere in the RAW is any of this relevant. It is, in fact, completely made up by you.

Actually, it is relevant. You just refuse to consider it because it counters your preconceived notion that this scenario:


"Oh no, a Troll" Bob the warrior warns his companions as he grabs a javelin.

"Wait, nevermind... I can't target it so its just an illusion. Pretty good one though, had me fooled for a moment."

Is RAW.

[RSP]

Actually, it is relevant. You just refuse to consider it because it counters your preconceived notion that this scenario

Then quote the RAW that backs it up or quit saying it’s RAW.

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: After a review, this thread will remain closed.