Thief or Assassin?

[Pex]

Looking for opinions for multiclassing. Relevant info:

High level game. Character is 8 bear barbarian/4 battlemaster fighter/1 rogue. Definitely taking rogue at least 3 more levels for the feat. I'm aware of fighter 6, but I don't want fighter 5 for obvious reason. No house rule to compensate. I want the feat, Resilient Dexterity, but I can wait. Going rogue.

Roleplaying not an issue. Personality and story established. This is for the fun of the game mechanics.

I have Shield Master feat. The DM allows bonus action Shove before attacking when taking the Attack Action. It's also why I want Resilient Dexterity. I have advantage on DX saves, but only a 14 DX has shown I don't get the evasion as often as I want accepting not 100% saving.

I wear a Cloak of Displacement.

I wield a magic longsword which is a buffed Frost Brand (+1 and +2d6 cold damage). I'm not switching it. I know I don't get Sneak Attack with it, and that's not an issue. I went Rogue because for this character it's the other class features that I want. Getting Expertise in Athletics was very important. 2nd level gives me Cunning Action which will be quite helpful. I know I'll have a lot of things competing for my bonus action, but I'm ok with that. I'm happy with the versatility of options to use what I need when I need it.

My dilemma is 3rd level Rogue. Do I go Thief or Assassin? Thief gives me Use An Object as a bonus action. That's important for disarming my foe, either through the Disarm Maneuver from Battle Master or choosing to use an attack for it - hooray Expertise Athletics with advantage on Strength checks. I'd get to kick the weapon far away for example. There are also situations in game play where it could matter for general use. It's all about the action economy. Assassin gives me a good chance to get advantage the first round of combat because I need my bonus action to Rage instead of Shield Master to trip. I do use Reckless Attack, but sometimes I don't want to for more defense with my Cloak of Displacement. It depends on the combat and my mood. Shield Master has been giving me Advantage so I don't have to use Reckless Attack a significant number of times. I do like the Cloak canceling the advantage opponents have to attack me when I Reckless Attack, but sometimes I'd prefer they have full disadvantage, ergo Shield Master or now maybe Assassin.

I've looked over the other Rogue archetypes. None appeal to me for this character.

[CTurbo]

I'd go Thief because a big heavy armor melee warrior is never going to get much use out of "Assassinate". Rogue 5 is probably worth it for Uncanny Dodge. You would be able to get the 3d6 Sneak Damage on ranged attacks and surely you'll make some ranged attacks sometimes. This would help that when you DO need to make a ranged attack, it would be decent.

[djreynolds]

Second story work could be fun.... no resilient wisdom or lucky

[MeeposFire]

Thief all the time every time. Exception being if assassinate is houseruled to work differently or the DM essentially makes it happen way more often than it does by RAW and even then thief is still better.

[Pex]

Sensing a pattern. The more I think about it Assassin is becoming less attractive because of Reckless Attack/Cloak of Displacement combo. That plus bear resistance, I haven't been in desperate need for what Assassin gives.

Thanks for the assist.

[Misterwhisper]

Sensing a pattern. The more I think about it Assassin is becoming less attractive because of Reckless Attack/Cloak of Displacement combo. That plus bear resistance, I haven't been in desperate need for what Assassin gives.

Thanks for the assist.

I know you said no interest in the others but I played through an odd rule interaction with a scout.

First, third level 2 skills and expertise in them, always great.

However it is their other ability that is nifty. When an opponent ends their movement next to you, you can move half your speed with no OA.

Most of the time people see that as backing up to get in cover.

However, use it to get around people for free.

Big thug come up to you to block you, oh well, when he stops just go right around him and laugh.

It also specifically says half your speed, not movement so it does not matter what you have already done.

Especially good with a barb/fighter with their faster movement and action surge.

[Pex]

I know you said no interest in the others but I played through an odd rule interaction with a scout.

First, third level 2 skills and expertise in them, always great.

However it is their other ability that is nifty. When an opponent ends their movement next to you, you can move half your speed with no OA.

Most of the time people see that as backing up to get in cover.

However, use it to get around people for free.

Big thug come up to you to block you, oh well, when he stops just go right around him and laugh.

It also specifically says half your speed, not movement so it does not matter what you have already done.

Especially good with a barb/fighter with their faster movement and action surge.

It's sort of my job to attack the big thugs. Certainly I'll go after the BBEG of the fight, but when there are big brutes I'm the only one in the party who can take their hits. I want them to attack me. The DM doesn't metagame. Bad guys will go after the PC squishies, but they don't ignore me despite not having a game mechanic forcing or encouraging them to attack me instead while being resistant to their attacks. If the big brut can't attack me because I move away he'll attack someone else. Well, I do have Goading Attack from Battlemaster, but I have to attack first. I need to be next to them.

I like Scout, but it doesn't fit for this character in this campaign.

[Keravath]

Just curious why you would want resilient dex over resilient wis?

Your wisdom save has to be pretty pathetic compared to your dex save with shield master (which applies to spells that only target you) and general advantage on dex saves for effects that you can see coming.

Just wait for an enemy caster to drop dominate person on you and watch as you slaughter the rest of your party since you can't make a wisdom save ...

Anyway, just a suggestion, but take a look at your character/party and consider resilient wisdom (unless you already have something like that through a magic item or other homebrew effect).

[micahaphone]

BTW, there are some magic longswords (like the lightsaber one, the sun blade) that also have the finesse property, allowing rogues to sneak attack with them (while still using strength). Just something to keep an eye out for

[Bosh]

Main issue with thief is Fast Hands competes with Shield Bash for your bonus action. If you're shield bashing all the time then Fast Hands does ****-all to help you.

On the other might be hard to use assassinate consistently and climbing about is fun, so maybe still thief?

[Pex]

Just curious why you would want resilient dex over resilient wis?

Your wisdom save has to be pretty pathetic compared to your dex save with shield master (which applies to spells that only target you) and general advantage on dex saves for effects that you can see coming.

Just wait for an enemy caster to drop dominate person on you and watch as you slaughter the rest of your party since you can't make a wisdom save ...

Anyway, just a suggestion, but take a look at your character/party and consider resilient wisdom (unless you already have something like that through a magic item or other homebrew effect).

Character theme. He's all about physical prowess. There is a campaign story reason to want Resilient Wisdom. I still have three levels to think about it. The reason may or may not be resolved by then.


BTW, there are some magic longswords (like the lightsaber one, the sun blade) that also have the finesse property, allowing rogues to sneak attack with them (while still using strength). Just something to keep an eye out for

The campaign is not magic item poor, but I can't expect any particular item. My character killed the displacer beast that makes his Cloak. There's also history with the sword and more specifically the silver dragon tooth used to enhance it from its original +1/+1d6 cold damage long sword.


Main issue with thief is Fast Hands competes with Shield Bash for your bonus action. If you're shield bashing all the time then Fast Hands does ****-all to help you.

On the other might be hard to use assassinate consistently and climbing about is fun, so maybe still thief?

Traps have been minimal this campaign. Use An Object as a bonus action is the selling point to consider Thief. I'll let the single class Rogue handle any skulduggery that needs to be done. Rogue offers game mechanics that enhance the character's physical prowess. That the class is roguish doesn't apply for this character. Not trying to be dismissive. I like you're helping me think on this, to reinforce Thief being the correct choice.

[ImproperJustice]

Fast Hands is pretty hand for a lot of things while you are waiting to get into shield bash range:

Drink potions
Help a downed ally with a healing kit
Lock a door
Coat a weapon with poison
Drop caltrops, ball bearing, or oil

Lots of things that are nice, but you don’t want to use a whole action for, are now conveniences.
It’s spiffy.

[Safety Sword]

I think you'll get way more use out of Thief if you're not using a weapon that's eligible for sneak attack.

Assassin really shines on those surprise round critical sneak attacks that just put someone down.
If you're not doing those you're doing assassin wrong and it won't even be that much fun I don't think. :smalltongue:
Assassin helps you get advantage, sure, but you're missing out if you're not getting that sneak attack damage. i think that alone is a big enough loss that it's not worth what you're giving up if you take Thief.

Good luck deciding, it seems you have a tough choice.

[Crgaston]

Character theme. He's all about physical prowess. There is a campaign story reason to want Resilient Wisdom. I still have three levels to think about it. The reason may or may not be resolved by then.



The campaign is not magic item poor, but I can't expect any particular item. My character killed the displacer beast that makes his Cloak. There's also history with the sword and more specifically the silver dragon tooth used to enhance it from its original +1/+1d6 cold damage long sword.



Traps have been minimal this campaign. Use An Object as a bonus action is the selling point to consider Thief. I'll let the single class Rogue handle any skulduggery that needs to be done. Rogue offers game mechanics that enhance the character's physical prowess. That the class is roguish doesn't apply for this character. Not trying to be dismissive. I like you're helping me think on this, to reinforce Thief being the correct choice.

Chiming in late, but if he's all about physical prowess, the Thief is far superior to Assassin. Just for the climb speed alone.

@ Misterwhisper, neat catch on the Scout feature. It would work well with a grappling build... you'd get to use your reaction for a little extra dragging. It falls off after L5 because it directly competes with Uncanny Dodge, though.

[Pex]

Yes, the climb speed factor does fit well.