What arcane spells would you pick to have cast-able at will?

[Jowgen]

You can pick 1 arcane spells of each level to have available to cast at will on your caster character in a campaign starting at 1st level.

The lists available are the core arcane casters (so Wiz/Sorc & Bard), which you can mix and match.

Legal source materials is everything 1st party, plus/incl. Dragon, Dungeon and Web material.

All schools except Universal are legal; though as an optional rule you may ban Evocation, Conjuration AND Necromancy to instead pick 2 spells of each level.

You're not getting them as SLA's so components are a factor, casting times are unchanged, and you can't apply metamagic feats to them.

Assorted abilities that let you trade castings of one spell for another, as to widen your selection, are off limits as well.

What spells do you pick to be able to spam at will on your caster?

[Endarire]

Are these spells in addition to spontaneous spellcasters' spells known?

[Biggus]

L.2: Heroics, bonus feat for you and all your allies, changable at will.

L.3: Casting Greater Magic Weapon on everybody's weapons every day would be a very effective way to make sure they kept you safe and never left you behind...

L.4: Ruin Delver's Fortune if I have high Charisma, or Orb of Force if not.

L.7/9: Greater Teleport and Time Stop at will would be very handy, always have to time to prepare for whatever you're facing.

L.8: Greater Celerity. Nuff said.

Not sure about the others. Possibly Grease for L.1 and Greater Dispel Magic for L.6. Nothing really jumping out at me for L.5.

EDIT: actually probably Cure Light Wounds for L.1.

[Crake]

At level 9, gate, because there's no more awesome way to travel, and you can also use it as a panic button at the cost of 1000xp should you need.

Also, because I think you could use gate in so many interesting ways when you're not wasting a spell slot to do it. Hosing down enemies with a gate to the elemental plane of water, starting a bushfire by opening a portal to the elemental plane of fire, swinging by celestia to chill with some angels, hopping into the positive energy plane to heal up after a fight, and so on.

Level 5, probably fabricate, it's one of my favourite spells, and combined with level 4 wall of stone, lets you build whatever structure you'd like in a day out of stone. Combine fabricate with eschew materials, and you can also make little knicknacks of up to 3gp value at will.

[Troacctid]

Core-only challenge.

0. Daze, Ghost Sound
1. Protection from Evil, Color Spray
2. Resist Energy, Heroism
3. Haste, Suggestion
4. Polymorph, Dominate Person
5. Greater Dispel Magic, Telekinesis
6. Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion
7. Greater Scrying, Limited Wish
8. Demand, Polymorph Any Object
9. Shades, Foresight

I'm assuming the spells become available at the appropriate level and are not all online at level 1?

[ben-zayb]

1st:
Improvisation: +½ CL luck bonus to a lot of d20 rolls.
Silent Image: self-explanatory

2nd:
Heroics: at will fighter bonus feats, including Martial Study/Stance
Wings of Cover: immediate action "NO" for yourself and possibly your allies

3rd:
Alter Fortune: self-explanatory
Haste: self-explanatory

4th:
Polymorph: Putting this here because, technically, it's the only spell you'll ever need at-will (Shaedlings are dummy broken) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-8-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO))
Voice of the Dragon: good social skill bonus and Suggestion will up your social game

5th:
Dispel Magic, Greater (Bard): low-level version of the same good spell
Telekinesis: self-explanatory

6th:
Scrying, Greater (Bard): low-level version of the same good spell
Charm Monster, Mass (Bard): low-level version of the same good spell

7th:
Energy Transformation: best way to take advantage of at-will spells is to use them to fuel your not-at-will spells (which may themselves be already versatile)
Shadow Conjuration, Greater: at-will access to Sor/Wiz (Creation) and (Summoning) spells is still pretty versatile; special mention goes to Shalantha's Delicate Disk--this allows you to "store" spells including at-will ones, and can be combo-d with Telekinesis to launch/break/trigger disks for a spell nova.

8th:
Shadow Evocation, Greater: at-will evocation spells are surprisingly convenient both out of combat: Contingency, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Wind Wall, Sending, Sonorous Hum, Greater Floating Disk, Blacklight, Darkness, Shatter, etc.
Polymorph Any Object: broken spell that makes you a better Giorno Giovanna

9th:
Time Stop: self-explanatory
Shapechange: self-Heal; physical form versatility; lets you clone yourself via Ooze's Split trick; gives you access to monster Ex abilities and Su abilities (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6595.0), includin spell emulations such as divination spells from Weirds, Wish from Zodar, Teleport from Archons, etc;

[Mike Miller]

This is amusing. I will have to revisit it when I have more time, but I know one choice. I would take Disjunction and travel the world destroying all magic everywhere.

[Kalkra]

I'm tempted to do eight levels of War spells, and then Shades, but instead let's go with...

1st:
Invisibility, Swift (courtesy of Bard)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift
Kaupaer's Quickblast
Nerveskitter
Deep Breath
Instant Diversion
Wings of Bounding
Distract Assailant
Bloodletting
Blade of Blood
Blockade
Critical Strike
Sniper's Shot
Guided Shot
Guided Arrow
Rhino's Rush
Strength of the True Form
Immediate Assistance

2nd:
Haste, Swift
Fly, Swift
Whispercast
Wraithstrike
Suffer the Flesh
Wings of Cover

3rd:
Permeable Form

4th:
Spell Enhancer
Assay Spell Resistance
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Stifle Spell

5th:
Etherealness, Swift

7th:
Arcane Spellsurge
Synostodweomer

9th:
Invoke Magic

I'm sure there are more, but I've now realized that I went a little overboard.

[Jowgen]

Are these spells in addition to spontaneous spellcasters' spells known?

Lets say it takes up a slot.


L.2: Heroics, bonus feat for you and all your allies, changable at will.

L.3: Casting Greater Magic Weapon on everybody's weapons every day would be a very effective way to make sure they kept you safe and never left you behind...

L.4: Ruin Delver's Fortune if I have high Charisma, or Orb of Force if not.

L.7/9: Greater Teleport and Time Stop at will would be very handy, always have to time to prepare for whatever you're facing.

L.8: Greater Celerity. Nuff said.

Not sure about the others. Possibly Grease for L.1 and Greater Dispel Magic for L.6. Nothing really jumping out at me for L.5.

EDIT: actually probably Cure Light Wounds for L.1.

Heroics is an interesting pick, though I've found the actual versatility in practice to basically be limited to getting everyone Improved Initiative. Which is good, don't get me wrong, but still. The others all make sense.



At level 9, gate, because there's no more awesome way to travel, and you can also use it as a panic button at the cost of 1000xp should you need.

Also, because I think you could use gate in so many interesting ways when you're not wasting a spell slot to do it. Hosing down enemies with a gate to the elemental plane of water, starting a bushfire by opening a portal to the elemental plane of fire, swinging by celestia to chill with some angels, hopping into the positive energy plane to heal up after a fight, and so on.

Level 5, probably fabricate, it's one of my favourite spells, and combined with level 4 wall of stone, lets you build whatever structure you'd like in a day out of stone. Combine fabricate with eschew materials, and you can also make little knicknacks of up to 3gp value at will.

Gate does certainly get rather significant coolness bonuses and can be fun to play with, so I can see that.


Core-only challenge.

0. Daze, Ghost Sound
1. Protection from Evil, Color Spray
2. Resist Energy, Heroism
3. Haste, Suggestion
4. Polymorph, Dominate Person
5. Greater Dispel Magic, Telekinesis
6. Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion
7. Greater Scrying, Limited Wish
8. Demand, Polymorph Any Object
9. Shades, Foresight

I'm assuming the spells become available at the appropriate level and are not all online at level 1?

Yes, they come online when you get to pick them.

I appreciate the thought put into this, particularly sticking to core on top of taking the specialisation option; although as a minor stickling point, Limit Wish is Universal and thus not a legal choice for this exercise.

As for the choices, I like Resit Energy as it scales pretty well, and Greater Dispel, Disintegrate and Greater Scrying are each great spamm-able picks. PAO, Shades and Foresight are similarly great stables that one can easilty get a lot fo use out of.

What I am wondering why pick that many mental control effect spells across various levels?

Also, why telekenesis? It's a neat effect, don't get me wrong, but why do you think it good enough to be picked for this?


I'm tempted to do eight levels of War spells, and then Shades, but instead let's go with...

1st:
Invisibility, Swift (courtesy of Bard)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift
Kaupaer's Quickblast
Nerveskitter
Deep Breath
Instant Diversion
Wings of Bounding
Distract Assailant
Bloodletting
Blade of Blood
Blockade
Critical Strike
Sniper's Shot
Guided Shot
Guided Arrow
Rhino's Rush
Strength of the True Form
Immediate Assistance

2nd:
Haste, Swift
Fly, Swift
Whispercast
Wraithstrike
Suffer the Flesh
Wings of Cover

3rd:
Permeable Form

4th:
Spell Enhancer
Assay Spell Resistance
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Stifle Spell

5th:
Etherealness, Swift

7th:
Arcane Spellsurge
Synostodweomer

9th:
Invoke Magic

I'm sure there are more, but I've now realized that I went a little overboard.

A tad overboard, perhaps. :smallamused:

Interesting list of potential choices,though arcane spellsurge as a universal spell is not a legal choice.

What puzzles me is the choice of Invoke Magic. It is the best AMF/DMZ panic button, but with the 1000 gp cost of each casting, it seems like a particularly odd pick for an at will spell.

[Troacctid]

I appreciate the thought put into this, particularly sticking to core on top of taking the specialisation option; although as a minor stickling point, Limit Wish is Universal and thus not a legal choice for this exercise.

As for the choices, I like Resit Energy as it scales pretty well, and Greater Dispel, Disintegrate and Greater Scrying are each great spamm-able picks. PAO, Shades and Foresight are similarly great stables that one can easilty get a lot fo use out of.

What I am wondering why pick that many mental control effect spells across various levels?

Also, why telekenesis? It's a neat effect, don't get me wrong, but why do you think it good enough to be picked for this?
Spammable mental control effects are good, and I couldn't pick teleport spells because of the banned schools. 🤷*♀️

Telekinesis is a generally strong combat option that also offers good utility. It's kind of an all-rounder. My next choice after it was shadow evocation, but then of course I'd have to remember a bunch of evocation spells and who wants to do that?

[Biggus]

Heroics is an interesting pick, though I've found the actual versatility in practice to basically be limited to getting everyone Improved Initiative. Which is good, don't get me wrong, but still.

Casters will usually pick Improved Initiative if they don't already have it, certainly. But martial classes, especially those which don't get any bonus feats, could get a lot more out of it. Get the next feat in a chain early, or have that feat you really wanted but couldn't quite squeeze into your build.

[Kalkra]

A tad overboard, perhaps. :smallamused:

Interesting list of potential choices,though arcane spellsurge as a universal spell is not a legal choice.

What puzzles me is the choice of Invoke Magic. It is the best AMF/DMZ panic button, but with the 1000 gp cost of each casting, it seems like a particularly odd pick for an at will spell.

Originally, I was just going to do all the swifts, but there really weren't that many.

Arcane Spellsurge was kinda a troll inclusion, because it doesn't benefit any of the other spells. Invoke Magic was in there because I wanted a spell from each level, (which I eventually gave up on, in part because I needed to be somewhere).

Anyway, lets go with Khelben's Dweomerdoom for 9th. Definitely something I'd like to spam.
For 8th, lets go with Mysterious Redirection. Not the greatest, but that's what you get for going with a theme.
I guess Familiar Refuge for 6th.

I could add more, but that would just make choosing one to be even harder, so Ima stop there.

[Endarire]

I somehow assumed we could swap these every X levels like how a Sor swaps spells. What happens if we lack full casting? What save DCs and caster levels do we use for these abilities?

0: Cure Minor/Repair Minor for healin' OR Ghost Sound for utility!

1: Cure Light Wounds/Repair Light Damage for healin'! If metamagic is allowed, Silent Image + Shadowcraft Mage = wonders! (Identify should be a no-cost spell here for utility.)

2: Alter Self for early game awesomeness OR Heroics to give the party Martial Stance/Martial Study/Improved Initiative OR Invisibility for early game winning goodies OR Resist Energy for long-term energy damage reduction OR Wings of Cover for emergencies. Martial Study: Mountain Hammer means the party can 'dig' and Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt means everyone can cross gaps and escape grapples occasionally.

Bards also get Silence at 2, meaning taking that is one means of getting silence easily on a Sor/Wiz.

3: Fireball/Scintillating Sphere: Stuff just needs to die at range.

4: Polymorph: For super versatility, accept nothing less at this level!

5: Teleport is fun, but Shadow Evocation is debatably more versatile.

6: I like Contingency, but Freezing Fog provides tremendous crowd control and a bit of damage and Greater Dispel is useful in any game where we expect mages.

7: <shrug> Energy Immunity, Great Shadow Conjuration, Ironguard, and Project Image are the most likely ones here since Limited Wish is out. With LW in, I'm more likely to go for LW.

8: Poly Any Object! It beats Great Shadow Evocation.

9: Shapechange. With it comes pretty much every other ability worth using, and starting as a Sor means I have the CHA to power various CHA-based abilities!

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd definitely have mental pinnacle as 6th. Unlimited power points (if you can just get bestow power)!

[Endarire]

ExLibrisMortis: Mental pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) blocks your casting. I'd rather avoid it, but 'tis your call.

[Jack_Simth]

ExLibrisMortis: Mental pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) blocks your casting. I'd rather avoid it, but 'tis your call.

Plus the 300gp component is a problem.

[Maat Mons]

Assuming I'll be playing as a Wizard...
0: Detect Magic
1: Cure Light Wounds
2: Fly, Swift
3: Glibness
4: Dimension Door
5: Shape Metal
6: Wall of Iron
7: Teleport, Greater
8: Plane Shift, Greater
9: Time Stop

Unless I'm starting at high level or get to "trade out" old choices at later levels.



For this thing where I get two spells of each level by "banning" Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy, how does that work? Am I just unable to pick spells from those schools as my at-wills? Or do I also lose access to those schools for any casting classes I take?

[Jack_Simth]

You can pick 1 arcane spells of each level to have available to cast at will on your caster character in a campaign starting at 1st level.

The lists available are the core arcane casters (so Wiz/Sorc & Bard), which you can mix and match.

Legal source materials is everything 1st party, plus/incl. Dragon, Dungeon and Web material.

All schools except Universal are legal; though as an optional rule you may ban Evocation, Conjuration AND Necromancy to instead pick 2 spells of each level.

You're not getting them as SLA's so components are a factor, casting times are unchanged, and you can't apply metamagic feats to them.

Assorted abilities that let you trade castings of one spell for another, as to widen your selection, are off limits as well.

What spells do you pick to be able to spam at will on your caster?

Hmm. I generally play Charisma-based casters (Sorcerers, Oracles), so....

0: Detect Magic (or "find good treasure" - Identify, with a Monocole)
1: Blockade (swift-action combat control)
2: Wings of Cover (nice to be able to say NO to whatever)
3: Glibness (if you invest in Bluff on a Charisma-based caster, this is basically "rewrite reality" - especially if you pick up Tongues the normal way)
4: Polymorph (redundant with Shapechange, but applies to others - and can be used for basic HP healing before I get past here... and there's very few non-combat challenges that can't be solved with Polymorph Spam)
5: Greater Dispel Magic (it's Bard-5)
6: Mass Charm Monster (it's Bard-6)
7: Greater Shadow Conjouration (very flexible, including Shalantha's Delicate Disk for storing things up and handing out buffs for folks that they can use themselves)
8: Greater Shadow Evocation (very flexible, including Contingency, and all your general blasting needs)
9: Shapechange (really torn between that and Shades, but hey: Can (ab)use this to get free Wishes & at-will divinations)

[Quertus]

Lets say it takes up a slot.

Yes, they come online when you get to pick them.

I think I can infer the answers to most of my questions from these answers, but, to be specific on the remaining questions:

Is this me, or a character that I'm running?

Do I make all choices ahead of time, or can I choose later?

Does anyone else in the world have cool abilities like this?

Do I have to be a Wizard as my class?

What do I know about my party? About our quest?

Is "magic item Walmart" a thing?

-----

Assuming I was running the character in a "normal" (but reasonably high-op) campaign…

I would be tempted to go Rogue as my base class. Then take…

0) Cure Minor Wounds… Prestidigitation, Detect Magic
1) Nerveskitter… Cure Light Wounds
2) Baleful Transposition / Suggestion… Invisibility, Summon Monster II, Detect Thought
3) Greater Magic Weapon / Flight… Vampiric Touch, Haste
4) Wall of $tone… Polymorph, Charm Monster, Dominate Person
5) Fabricate
6) Bestow Greater Curse… Plane $hift, Control Weather
7) Teleport without Error… Simulacrum, Plane Shift, Energy Immunity
8) Polymorph any Object
9) Mindrape… Gate

0) I know you said 1-9, but Prestidigitation is too cool to just ignore (although probably available in item form) is Universal, dagnabbit! :smallfrown: As much as I'd love to improve PR through Prestidigitation, Detect Magic to not miss out on loot may be optimal (unless I use wierwood shenanigans). (EDIT - no, forget that. Cure Minor Wounds as a Cure effect to stop wounding, prevent people from bleeding out, and heal up NPCs that weren't in our DMM Persist (mass) Lesser Vigor / get good PR / heal townsfolk just sounds too good)

1) Cure Light Wounds is under consideration not for healing (I imagine a level dip in Cleric for DMM Persist Lesser Vigor will cover that until our saddle mounted resetting Heal traps or other healing shenanigans come online), but for things that explicitly require Cure magic, like stopping Wounding effects (EDIT - Cure Minor Wounds should cover that). I think +5 initiative every battle will ultimately be the best bet for a DPS Rogue build. If I'm in a world where having this power qualifies me to craft, crafting the party items of Nerveskitter would certainly demonstrate my value to the party.

2) Under a sufficiently permissive GM, keeping the entire party invisible outside of combat would be great. Spamming Detect Thoughts at will would be great… under the right GM. Now that there's some duration to it, Summon Monster is actually interesting. But, for sheer trolling, I think I'm going with Baleful Transposition or Suggestion (both of which I know that I both enjoy and know how to use).

3) Keeping the entire party flying would be great. Loading a pair of Spell Storing (or the "better in this case") weapons with Vampiric Touch would be cool. Suggestion is still just awesome. As would throwing Haste on Summoned Monsters. But I think that a DPS Rogue build would benefit most from and level fastest with Greater Magic Weapon. And it would benefit most any party (especially the oversized ones I prefer).

4) Finally, some BFC. And the ability to build my own town. Wall of Stone beats out the competition (although Charm Monster has some interesting applications). As much fun as Polymorph may be, it seems redundant with the Polymorph any Object I'll be taking later (likely in a matter of days, tbh, of were leveling by RAW, can find ample threats, and don't get killed).

5) Fabricate - if this could be cast in combat, having it at will would be a character all by itself. Still, with the skill points of a Rogue, I've got plenty of room for Craft skills, and find this too fun, too good for PR, and just straight up good.

6) Irritate me, and I can spend all my free time inventing new curses to curse you with. Loved, and feared. The Cleric has had Plane Shift for some time now, and even my Cleric or Ur-Priest cohort has it by now. Control Weather is another "feared and loved" spell… but I think it's rarely needed that frequently (unless combined with Teleportation effects).

7) As much as I love Simulacrum, I think I'll stick with UMD scrolls. Teleport without Error at will is just too handy. And Plane Shift is still too far behind schedule.

8) I can get Mind Blank on a cowl; PaO at will is just too cool to pass up. Pity about having to carry around so much mercury, unless I take Eschew / Ignore Materials.

9) IMO, Mindrape is best spell. And my second favorite. Gate would be cool, but I think I can get by without it.

[tiercel]

Some spells seem especially good if spammable, e.g. illusions. Being able to cast an infinite number of illusions might mean the only time I have to cast my own actual spells is to take down punks who think they are SO CLEVER for casting true seeing. (Fun combo: infinite sonorous hum to keep many illusions running at once.)

Infinite charm monster (as a 3rd level spell from Bard) is potentially pretty scary when it bleeds into “absolutely everyone I meet who isn’t immune to mind-affecting is my new minion/friend.”

Infinite glibness means virtually everything I say, ever, effectively becomes true.

Infinite modify memory means I can rewrite as much of someone’s mind as I care to... at level 7.

Infinite ruin delver’s fortune is a crunchy immediate-action defense every dang round, with decent Cha

Infinite nightmare means I can grind up someone’s psyche in their sleep to the tune of up 6d10 damage per hour from unlimited range.

Infinite telekinesis means I can gish without getting my hands dirty... as a single-classed caster... from Long range (almost a ‘I don’t need other combat actions’ spell). Also cool utility.

[ExLibrisMortis]

ExLibrisMortis: Mental pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) blocks your casting. I'd rather avoid it, but 'tis your call.
Only for one round/level (though it's not dismissable, I didn't consider that). The plan was to get Circle Magic and get some really high-ML powers. Not optimal, I just like psionics.

[Jowgen]

So the ones most frequently picked seem to be:

1. Cure Light Wounds
2. Wings of Cover
3. Glibness
4. Polymorph
5. Fabricate
6. Greater Scrying
7. Greater Shadow Conjuration
8. Polymorph any Object
9. Timestop

[El Dorado]

I'd go bard and switch to wizard spells after 6th.

0--Mage Hand
1--Comprehend Languages
2--Tongues
3--Cure Serious Wounds
4--Freedom of Movement
5--Mass Suggestion
6--Heroes' Feast
7--Greater Teleport
8--Mage's Magnificent Mansion
9--Dominate Monster

[Sleven]

Picking at-will downtime spells is a complete waste. If you've got time to do things like Fabricate you're probably already sitting for the day and dedicating a number of slots to it. Same with spells that you only need to use once to carry you through an encounter, like Glibness. Timestop is also being overvalued since it simply lacks in versatility and relative power for its spell level (compare it to spells like Mindrape and Shades).

If it was me, I'd play a wizard and completely disregard the concept of spells/day by taking some of the insane **** they get like Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen's Lucubration. Just keep the hundreds of 3rd level and lower spells you know in a constant casting rotation by Lucubrating them and any other 4th and 5th level spells you think you need. From there I'd choose spells that I'd actually want to cast every round and/or fit into my action economy. Celerity comes to mind, as does Shades.

But what do I know about limited spell lists, I'm just a sorcerer player.

[Maat Mons]

But if you have at-will Time Stop, and you don't need sleep or food, you can keep yourself under the spell's effect forever. There will never be an encounter to end. Whatever you want to do, you do it. No one can stop you, because no one else ever gets a turn.

Sure, you can't harm creatures. But why would you care? They can't do anything until the Time Stop ends, and that will never happen. You have now bested not only every creature, but reality itself. And not even the Gods can do anything, not unless you choose to let them by allowing your Time Stop loop to lapse.



Picking Glibness on a Wizard isn't a waste. It's not on the Wizard spell list, so you can't prepare it with your normal spell slots. One way to use these at-will spells is to get more castings of spells that were already available to you. But grabbing a handy off-list spell is another way.

And why do you care about "wasting" your 3rd-level pick when you just said you're getting all 3rd-level and lower Wizard spells at-will via Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration? At that point, what's really wasting your pick (for 1st - 3rd level) is going with anything that's already on the Wizard list, since it's completely redundant.



How is Mindrape not a downtime spell? It's Mind-Affecting, and allows a Will save. If your enemy is susceptible to Mind-Affecting effects and fails a Will save against one of your spells, you didn't need to cast Mindrape to win. Lots of other stuff would have done it. Mindraping all the influential NPCs to make them your puppets would be lots of fun, sure. But that's something you can accomplish in a few days of downtime with your normal spell slots.

[Sleven]

That's part of the problem with Time Stop, you're not actually accomplishing anything if you're just playing with yourself and unattended objects. Even the places you can go to do what you want are limited to no antimagic or dead magic areas, and given the limitations of the premise, areas of silence. The larger issue is the opportunity cost of taking it to begin with. When it comes to 9th level spells you can do much better. Its only merit is fitting into the standard action or less paradigm that's inherently valuable for at-will abilities.

Mindrape is a power example. It's also a standard action with a high DC, so there's little downside to spamming it if you have the option. The rate at which you can dominate the universe is drastically increased. Also, since it's instantaneous it can be used on creatures that are mind-immune so long as their immunity is lowered and retain its benefits when they go back up. The sheer volume of creatures you can get that can do things on-par with Time Stop or Miracle is drastically increased over someone who's not using it to solve all of their problems. It's more or less standard action Ice Assassin with a saving throw, and you can even tell creatures to fail those if you pair it with something like your standard Gate spell.

While I agree there is great value in taking spells you wouldn't normally be able to get, Glibness is not one of them. First of all, the myth that Glibness more or less works on all conversation-based Bluff checks is just that: a myth. It's limited to, "Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words." It has nothing to do with the more powerful aspect of Bluff, which is covered under general Bluff checks, "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) [...]" The second part of that sentence, "or believes something that you want it to believe," is all that Glibness gives you a bonus on. So just because you get someone to believe you, doesn't mean they're going to do what you want them to. I'd much rather take at-will Improvisation, jack my caster level up, then use that on my Bluff check. Since it works with any kind of Bluff check.

You are right that none of the lower level at-will spell picks really matter with Mnemonic Enhancer and Lucubration on board. But it is incorrect to assume that there's anything dramatically better on the bard list that you couldn't already accomplish with another wizard spell.

[Lans]

Unseen Servant spam seems to be pretty solid BFC

[NigelWalmsley]

It doesn't really matter if Glibness doesn't work for "getting people to do what you want" and instead only works for "getting people to believe what you want". "I should do X" is a belief. Glibness is probably the single most absurdly overpowered 3rd level spell in the game, because it causes you to instantly win any encounter with an enemy you can talk to unless the DM has been hand-rolling monsters to resist it.

[tiercel]

Picking at-will downtime spells is a complete waste. If you've got time to do things like Fabricate you're probably already sitting for the day and dedicating a number of slots to it.

Depends on your intentions — if you just want to make the occasional shiny new masterwork sword to enchant, or even dozens of swords for the local militia, a few downtime Wall of Iron + Fabricate is indeed probably all you ever need.

At-will Fabricate is gonna be a little different.

At one cubic foot of mineral per six seconds, that’s around 300 tons of worked steel per hour, or at ten cubic feet of non-mineral per six seconds, that’s around 72000 board feet of lumber per hour. (Yes, supply is probably going to be an issue without Instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spam.)

Solve the supply issue and you’ve just gone industrial. Arguably, that’s not the usual point of D&D, but you could certainly make a lyre of building look... puny.

[Sleven]

It doesn't really matter if Glibness doesn't work for "getting people to do what you want" and instead only works for "getting people to believe what you want". "I should do X" is a belief. Glibness is probably the single most absurdly overpowered 3rd level spell in the game, because it causes you to instantly win any encounter with an enemy you can talk to unless the DM has been hand-rolling monsters to resist it.

So your argument is to try and homoginize something the rules explcitly tell you are two different parts of the skill? To try and "get around" the fact that Glibness never did what you thought it did? I need to leave.


Depends on your intentions — if you just want to make the occasional shiny new masterwork sword to enchant, or even dozens of swords for the local militia, a few downtime Wall of Iron + Fabricate is indeed probably all you ever need.

At-will Fabricate is gonna be a little different.

At one cubic foot of mineral per six seconds, that’s around 300 tons of worked steel per hour, or at ten cubic feet of non-mineral per six seconds, that’s around 72000 board feet of lumber per hour. (Yes, supply is probably going to be an issue without Instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spam.)

Solve the supply issue and you’ve just gone industrial. Arguably, that’s not the usual point of D&D, but you could certainly make a lyre of building look... puny.

That's really my point. Why would you want to be the one spending all your time doing this when you could just create Sims of creatures that can do this (e.g. Rekjar [sp?]) or go out and Mindrape a bunch of them. Different ways for you to achieve the same goal without having to spend one of your own resources on it. Optimization is all about efficiency, after all.

[NigelWalmsley]

So your argument is to try and homoginize something the rules explcitly tell you are two different parts of the skill? To try and "get around" the fact that Glibness never did what you thought it did? I need to leave.

Glibness does exactly what everyone except you was able to figure out it did: let you rewrite the beliefs of any enemy that isn't optimized for a deeply non-standard defense. Obviously that can lead to different behavior, otherwise there'd be no reason to do it at all, regardless of the bonus. It's true that the usages of the skill are different, it's just that the bonus is so large it makes that difference irrelevant.

[Calthropstu]

1: charm person
2: invisibility
3: protection from energy
4: wall of ice
5: dominate
6: disintigrate
7: teleport greater
8: greater shadow evocation
9: shapechange

This gives you a good amount of absolute utility, the ability to escape almost any situation and the ability to bend people to your will. Virtually unstoppable, you can live your life doing whatever you want and leave almost no trace. If anyone manages to track you down, simply leave teleporting to a new location to start anew. Alternatively, you could simply disintigrate your tracker leaving no trace.
You have nearly all of the attack spells via greater shadow evocation. You could use disintigrate as an explosive free tunneling method. You could simply charm people into giving you what you need. This list can cover nearly every need.

[Endarire]

@Jowgen: What was your intent for posting this thread? Maybe knowing this will help repliers help you.

[Asmotherion]

0: Mage Hand
1: Strength Of the true Form
2: Scintilating Scales
3: Shrink Item
4: Ruin Delver's Fortune
5: Fabricate
6: Planar Binding
7: Greater Teleport
8: Greater Celerity
9: Shapechange