Questions about ability checks and multiclassing with spells.

[molean]

learned spells must be of a level you have spell slots for .... when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the <insert class> spells you know and replace it with another spell from the <insert class>spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.-PHB for all sorts of spell caster classes

So let's say you are a Arcane trickster 9th lvl and 11 level bard. The multi-class guide says you would be a 14th level spell caster with 7th level spell slot. Does that mean said arcane trickster can learn and use 7th level wizard spells if that was the last class to get levels in?

Does Arcane trickster use spells like a sorcerer, interchangeably without preparing?

If the Arcane trickster multiclasses to wizard, can they copy and learn new wizard spells for their book and use them for Arcane trickster casting? And if so, to what level? Let's just say level 1 of wizard.

I've found multiple sources online that say bards Jack of all trades ability helps with Counterpell, even further stacking with Rogue's Reliable talent for guaranteed counters up to 8 even using 3rd slot. But I've been staring at Counterspells description for awhile and I'm not entirely sure how this works. I get most of the base principle but then doesn't this help with all spells? Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells?:smallsigh: And what other spells are helped in this?

Does knowledge arcana not help with pulling off a counter spell? Yes I know it helps identify the spell being cast, but I mean the actual countering it.

[Dork_Forge]

When you're multiclassed you determine the spells you can prepare from only that class' perspective, so you can only choose spells for your AT side as a level 9 AT and if you dip Wizard you can only learn spells liek a 1st level Wizard.

An Arcane Trickster is a spell known caster like a Sorcerer, you pick your spells and outside of level ups this doesn't change.

For Counterspelling Arcana doesn't enter into it, if it's a 3rd level or lower spell it auto succeeds, if you're trying to counter a higher level spell you need to make a check. This is a spellcasting check so if you get Counterspell from Bard, then your check is a d20+Cha and half your proficiency from Jack of all Trades. If you were a Wizard then it would be d20+Int (adding full prof if a higher level Abjurer).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You get spells known as if you were a single class character.
It was changed in an Errata.

Yes, like sorcerer.

Level 1 of wizard will give you spell prepared like a level 1 wizard and you will be able to copy all level 1 spell of a wizard with enough time and access to the spells.

Jack of all trades work with counterspell because it is an ability check and bard get half proficiency to all ability checks that he have no proficiency for.
The game have 3 d20 rolls, ability, attack and save. It is the same reason a bard get better initiative.

About the rogue reliable talent it depends on if half proficiency bonus work as a trigger for it.

Counterspell and dispell magic are ability check of spellcasting ability (the one from the class you got the spell from) vs 10+spell levels of the one you want to counter/dispell.

It is not that spell resist it is that countering/dispelling is harder if your counter/dispell is from a lower slut.

Arcane does not help.

[molean]

So that learned spell also applies with changing one spell to another with leveling up also ignore the other classes in multiclass?

With multiclassing 1wizard and multiple arcane trickster, can I use any of those learned from copying level 1 wizard spells as how a arcane trickster casts(sorcerer style) and using all level 1 slots?


Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells? And what other spells are helped in this?

If someone could please answer these questions about spells in general?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

So that learned spell also applies with changing one spell to another with leveling up also ignore the other classes in multiclass?

With multiclassing 1wizard and multiple arcane trickster, can I use any of those learned from copying level 1 wizard spells as how a arcane trickster casts(sorcerer style) and using all level 1 slots?



If someone could please answer these questions about spells in general?

You prepared the spell differently and cast them as if you were the class the prepared them.
You can yous any slut to cast them(so if you have multiple AT and one wizard you can upcast burning hands to a level 5 slut even if you only have it as a wizard.

Your slots are different from your known/prepared spells.
The slot are universal and work like the table.


About what you quoted I already answered, the spell are not resisting, there is no such thing.

The JoAT and reliable talent work with counterspell and dispell magic because those spells use an ability check ant those two features boost ability checks.
Most other spells use an attack roll or no roll. If it is not called an ability check it is no boosted.

[Greywander]

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're asking, but I'll try my best to answer each point I can.


So let's say you are a Arcane trickster 9th lvl and 11 level bard. The multi-class guide says you would be a 14th level spell caster with 7th level spell slot. Does that mean said arcane trickster can learn and use 7th level wizard spells if that was the last class to get levels in?
According to the multiclassing rules, spell slots and spells known/prepared are handled separately from one another.

For spell slots, you basically add up all your caster levels, and you have as many spell slots as a full caster of that level. Thus, a cleric 5 / wizard 5 has many spell slots as a wizard 10 would. Do note that paladin and ranger levels only count for half, and AT and EK levels only count for one third of a caster level. Thus, a bard 11 / AT 9 would be a 11 + (9/3) = 14th level caster.

Spells known/prepared are handled differently. You treat each caster class as if it were your only class in order to determine which spells you know or can prepare for that class, but you can do this for each caster class. If you are a 5th level wizard, you know and can prepare as many spells as a 5th level wizard, regardless of what other class levels you may have. A bard 11 / AT 9 only knows the spells that a bard 11 would know + the spells that an AT 9 would know.

When you combine these two, it means you can have spells slots that are a higher level than the spells you can know or prepare. A bard 11 / AT 9 is a 14th level caster and has 7th level spell slots, but they can only learn up to 6th level bard spells and 2nd level wizard spells. While you don't know any 7th level spells, you can cast one of your lower level spells at 7th level.


Does Arcane trickster use spells like a sorcerer, interchangeably without preparing?
Yes. ATs know a limited number of spells and can replace one of them with another each time you gain a level in AT. Note that you specifically have to gain a level in AT, not another class.


If the Arcane trickster multiclasses to wizard, can they copy and learn new wizard spells for their book and use them for Arcane trickster casting? And if so, to what level? Let's just say level 1 of wizard.
No, but they can cast wizard spells. Your AT spells and wizard spells are handled separately from one another. A 9th level AT who dips 1 level into wizard can only copy 1st level spells into their spellbook, even though they know 2nd level AT spells.


I've found multiple sources online that say bards Jack of all trades ability helps with Counterpell, even further stacking with Rogue's Reliable talent for guaranteed counters up to 8 even using 3rd slot. But I've been staring at Counterspells description for awhile and I'm not entirely sure how this works. I get most of the base principle but then doesn't this help with all spells? Like spells are resisted against the spell ability level + spell level, right? So are all spells boosted by Jack of all trades and Reliable Talent? If not, why not? How is Counterspell different than other spells?:smallsigh: And what other spells are helped in this?
Jack of All Trades helps with any ability check that doesn't already add your proficiency bonus. Any ability check. Do note that 99.9% of the time you're rolling a d20, it's either an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw, so if it's not an attack roll or saving throw, Jack of All Trades applies.

Reliable Talent forces a minimum roll of 10 on any ability check that adds your proficiency bonus. Counterspell does not normally add your proficiency bonus, unless you're an Abjurer, so you don't normally benefit from Reliable Talent. Jack of All Trades adds half your proficiency bonus, and while it's only half, it still counts for triggering Reliable Talent (and yes, they're an amazing combo). Since Counterspell uses an ability check, with Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent, you can't roll lower than a 10 and you add half your proficiency bonus. Assuming 17th level with an INT of 20, that means the lowest you can roll is 10 + 5 + 3 = 18, which will counter up to 8th level spells, guarantied, as the DC is 10 + the spell's level.


Does knowledge arcana not help with pulling off a counter spell? Yes I know it helps identify the spell being cast, but I mean the actual countering it.
No. You might think it should, but it doesn't. This is a good thing, though, because it means you don't have to take proficiency with Arcana. If you want to be a knowledgeable scholar, you can, but maybe you're a hedge wizard with no formal magical training. There's no reason you should be worse at counterspelling just because you lack the academic theory of magic. Your knowledge of magic is practical and self-taught, you have no need for lofty theories in order to cast spells effectively.

Personally, I like playing scholarly type characters, but I appreciate the fact that I'm not forced to do so in order to optimize. It's kind of like how fighters don't need to take proficiency with Athletics in order to be good at fighting.

[molean]

the spell are not resisting, there is no such thing.

Not sure what you're talking about but it's clear you are misunderstanding me.

I will give some specific spell examples. But please realize it's not just about this or that particular spell but understanding the base mechanics of magics and hopefully getting the answer to my previous question.



Silent Image: A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.
Your spell save DC ( What is "DC"? dice count? What's this?) is "8 + your spell-casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers" right? That is the formula for determining whether they can see through said silent image? So spell casting ability modifier = ability modifier = ability check = benefits from Jack of all trades and Reliable talent to preventing your illusion from being seen through??? What proficiency bonus could it mean, just general level proficiency bonus?

Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus." So that means it doesn't benefit from Jack of all Trades because it already has proficiency bonus from any level or whatever proficiency bonus it means? So then does Rogues Reliable Talent apply for making your illusions harder to see through?



Fire Bolt: Make a ranged spell attack against the target.
Ones spell attack "equals your spell casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus" So Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make" & spell attacks use an ability check? ? ?



Blindness/Deafness: Choose one creature that you can see within range to make a Constitution saving throw.
Fireball: creature in a 20-foot radius must make a Dexterity saving throw

Am I to understand spell attack is implied in these even if it doesn't say?


make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level.
So assuming none of those other spells benefit from Jack of all Trades and/or Reliable Talent?

Why would Counterspell benefit from it? What's different about it?

What other spells would benefit from Jack and/or Reliable?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Not sure what you're talking about but it's clear you are misunderstanding me.

I will give some specific spell examples. But please realize it's not just about this or that particular spell but understanding the base mechanics of magics and hopefully getting the answer to my previous question.


Your spell save DC ( What is "DC"? dice count? What's this?) is "8 + your spell-casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers" right? That is the formula for determining whether they can see through said silent image? So spell casting ability modifier = ability modifier = ability check = benefits from Jack of all trades and Reliable talent to preventing your illusion from being seen through??? What proficiency bonus could it mean, just general level proficiency bonus?

Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus." So that means it doesn't benefit from Jack of all Trades because it already has proficiency bonus from any level or whatever proficiency bonus it means? So then does Rogues Reliable Talent apply for making your illusions harder to see through?


.
Ones spell attack "equals your spell casting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus" So Jack of all Trade says "any ability check you make" & spell attacks use an ability check? ? ?


Am I to understand spell attack is implied in these even if it doesn't say?


So assuming none of those other spells benefit from Jack of all Trades and/or Reliable Talent?

Why would Counterspell benefit from it? What's different about it?

What other spells would benefit from Jack and/or Reliable?

DC is not a check, it is a value you need to pass with a check so it is not valid for Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent.
Spell attack is an attack roll, not an ability check so it doesn't benefit from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent.
Pay attention that the one who try to determine that it is an illusion in your silent image example do get the benefits from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent because it calls for Intelligence (Investigation) check.
It is a check of an ability(and not an attack or save) so it is an ability check.

An ability check is a roll of a d20 that is not an attack and not a save that use an ability modifier in order to check success or failure.
Almost always an ability check will be called an ability check.

Counterspell benefit from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent because he calls for an ability check.

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.

Dispel Magic also benefit from those two features:

Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.

[molean]

Pay attention that the one who try to determine that it is an illusion in your silent image example do get the benefits from Jack of all Trades and Reliable Talent because it calls for Intelligence (Investigation) check.

I get that ability check is used in trying to see through an illusion, but what about preventing one of your own illusions from being seen through? Please explain illusion magic check for those who cast the illusion (not for those opposing and trying to see through it)

[JNAProductions]

I get that ability check is used in trying to see through an illusion, but what about preventing one of your own illusions from being seen through? The value you have to oppose the opponents investigation skill for your illusion isn't an attack or a save as far as I can tell. So won't either or both of these abilities help with making ones illusions more reliable? Please explain illusion magic check for those who cast the illusion (not for those opposing and trying to see through it)

It uses your spell DC.

Your spell DC is 8+your proficiency modifier+your spellcasting stat modifier.

It is not an ability check, so Jack Of All Trades or Reliable Talent never enter the picture.

[Keravath]

The fundamental thing you are missing (which has be mentioned) is that there are three types of d20 rolls.

1) SAVING throws. A target has to roll a d20 to avoid or reduce an effect. Usually spells and traps. The spells you quoted said “spell save DC” or “saving throw”. These are NOT ability checks (though they are calculated the same way).

DC=Difficulty Class (or something like that)
DC=8+proficiency+ability modifier

The target has to roll equal to or greater than the DC to successfully save.

2) ATTACK rolls. Weapons and some spells may call for an attack roll. (These are NOT ability checks - they are attack rolls). In order to hit, your d20+ability modifier+other modifiers (the most common would be a magic weapon or archery fighting style if using a ranged weapon) has to be equal to or greater than the targets armor class (AC).

3) The last category of d20 rolls are ability checks. These are most commonly skills but also include rolling for initiative (which is a dexterity ability check) and the roll needed for counterspell which is a spell casting ability check.

The basic formula you need to roll is the same as an attack roll.

D20+proficiency (Only if you are proficient) + ability modifier

So if you have to make an athletics check to scale a wall. The DM would tell you the DC, you would roll a d20 add modifiers and if the total was greater than the DC you would succeed.

What does bard jack of all trades do?
It allows you to add 1/2 your proficiency but ONLY to ability checks where you are not proficient. Since you can never get proficiency in initiative checks or counterspell rolls (except the abjure wizard), a bard gets to add 1/2 their proficiency to these rolls.

Finally, the latest version of the official sage advice compendium specifically clarifies that Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trades do NOT work together.

[molean]

When spell caster multiclassing, do you get all the cantrips of each class? And all learned spells?

[Anymage]

When spell caster multiclassing, do you get all the cantrips of each class?

Yes. You'll often have to remember which class you got which cantrip from, since each class has its own casting stat; if you know Sacred Flame as a cleric and Fire Bolt as a sorcerer, you'll force them to make a save based on your WIS mod for the cleric one while you attack based on CHA mod for the sorcerer one. All cantrips scale based on character level, though, and ones that don't rely on your stats really don't care which class they come from.


And all learned spells?

You know spells for each class individually. Most importantly, no class in a multiclass can know a spell of a higher level than it could learn from just those class levels on their own. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5 can't know anything above third level, even though multiclassing means they have fifth level slots.

[molean]

Bard allows you to get proficiency in any "skill". Is medium armor proficiency a "skill" that could be chosen? How might I get it otherwise? (other than multiclassing of course)

[Keravath]

Bard allows you to get proficiency in any "skill". Is medium armor proficiency a "skill" that could be chosen? How might I get it otherwise? (other than multiclassing of course)

No, medium armor is not a skill. The skills are pretty clearly listed in the skills section of the PHB.

You can get proficiency with medium armor by multiclassing into a class which allows it or by taking the Moderately armored feat ... but you need to already be proficient with light armor to take the moderately armored feat (which bards are). The classes that give medium armor proficiency are listed in the multiclassing table in chapter 6 OR if the armor proficiency is listed as a specific feature of the class sub-type. For example, hexblade warlocks get proficiency in medium armor and shields at level 1 as an archetype feature. If you take 1 level of hexblade warlock you have proficiency in medium armor and shields. However, warlocks in general, receive proficiency in light armor as a class ability.

Clerics are similar. They have proficiency in medium armor, shields and simple weapons as a class ability but some archetypes receive proficiency in heavy armor and/or martial weapons as an archetype feature.

P.S. Multiclassing proficiencies gained are listed in the table on page 164 of the PHB.

[JackPhoenix]

Bard allows you to get proficiency in any "skill". Is medium armor proficiency a "skill" that could be chosen? How might I get it otherwise? (other than multiclassing of course)

Subclasses, race or feat. It's not a skill. Skills are listed on your character sheet or in the PHB, in the Using Ability Scores chapter.

[ThePolarBear]

It was changed in an Errata.

FYI it has always been this way. That part of the text has gone unchanged.


Bard allows you to get proficiency in any "skill". Is medium armor proficiency a "skill" that could be chosen? How might I get it otherwise? (other than multiclassing of course)

For the purpose of the rules the skills are defined on page 174 of the phb (page 61 of the basic rules (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf)) as a specific aspect of a more general ability score. There is a list there.

[molean]

With a Bard 4, Arcane Trickster 16 multiclass, should I max intel? dex? (otherwise they will be at 16) or use all ability increase points for feats? I got alot of feats I'd like to get. Like Sharpshooter, skulker,(if I miss because I took sharpshooters disadvantage to hit I can remain hidden) lucky, resilient con,(It's a party of me and a sorcerer so no one to hide behind) ritual spell caster, mobile, alert. sentinel, war caster are various feats I'd like to get. But I can't get them all obviously, especially not and max say intel. My GM thinks I should absolutely max intel, but I'm not sure two feats for +2 spell rolls is worth it for a low level caster filled with many utility spells (but color blast and blindness working will always be nice)

With warcaster it says " You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands." How does it work otherwise?

[Keravath]

With a Bard 4, Arcane Trickster 16 multiclass, should I max intel? dex? (otherwise they will be at 16) or use all ability increase points for feats? I got alot of feats I'd like to get. Like Sharpshooter, skulker,(if I miss because I took sharpshooters disadvantage to hit I can remain hidden) lucky, resilient con,(It's a party of me and a sorcerer so no one to hide behind) ritual spell caster, mobile, alert. sentinel, war caster are various feats I'd like to get. But I can't get them all obviously, especially not and max say intel. My GM thinks I should absolutely max intel, but I'm not sure two feats for +2 spell rolls is worth it for a low level caster filled with many utility spells (but color blast and blindness working will always be nice)

With warcaster it says " You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands." How does it work otherwise?

Several comments ..

1) You need to have a free hand to cast ANY spell unless you have the warcaster feat. A two handed weapon only needs two hands when you are actually attacking with it. A character using a bow or a two handed sword who wants to cast a spell doesn't need warcaster since they will have a free hand already. A character wielding a sword and shield might want warcaster to allow them to cast a spell with somatic components while both hands are full (exception for clerics/paladins casting a spell with both material and somatic components when their shield is their spell casting focus).

2) Your character is mostly a rogue. Your primary stat will be dexterity so you would max that. Typically, arcane tricksters use mostly utility spells and fewer attack spells since they don't get as high level spells as a primary caster and they also don't usually max intelligence since, as you mentioned, there are a lot of other feats that might be more useful to a rogue. On the other hand, the level 9 ability of the arcane trickster which forces opponents to roll their saving throws at disadvantage when the rogue is hidden from them when they cast a spell works very well with higher intelligence. However, if you can find a headband of intellect magic item in your travels this is typically more than enough for an arcane trickster.

3) The -5/+10 ability of sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue (meaning that most of the time you will not want to use it) since it reduces the chance of landing sneak attack which does several d6 extra damage (3d6 at level 5 rogue averages 10.5 damage which is more than the bonus from sharpshooter). Most rogue sharpshooter builds will take sharpshooter for the range and cover benefits and will likely multiclass into something granting the extra attack feature.

4) At level 5 bard you get access to 3rd level spells and bardic inspiration refreshes on a short rest. 4/16 might maximize ASIs but I think you would be better off with 5/15 since the increase in bard abilities at level 5 is worthwhile. Also if you are taking bard to level 5, then having a good charisma is essential, so you would be boosting charisma and not intelligence. An arcane trickster doesn't get 3rd level spells until 13th level ... so the 5 levels of bard are actually a major source of the magical ability of this character. High charisma also helps all the social skills like persuasion making the character better at social interactions (along with the expertise from both bard and rogue).

5) Campaigns rarely make it to level 20. Think about what will be fun to play to various milestones ... up to level 4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20. What mix of character levels will be fun for you to play?

For example, at level 5 ... do you want to be bard 5, rogue 5, bard 3/rogue 2, rogue 3/bard 2 or some other mix? How about level 7? 5 bard/rogue 2, 5 rogue/2 bard, 7 rogue?

Each combination gives you different abilities and will feel quite different when you play them. Give it a little thought what you want the character to be like as you play through since it will take a very long time to get to level 20 if your campaign gets there.

[molean]

1) You need to have a free hand to cast ANY spell
Only spells with Somatic attribute, or what's the point of that designation? I see no reason someone can't cast a spell that only uses voice while duel wielding.


3) The -5/+10 ability of sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue (meaning that most of the time you will not want to use it) since it reduces the chance of landing sneak attack which does several d6 extra damage
Again, not with Skulker that makes it not reveal your position if you miss so your next attack can also be a sneak attack. And it will be done with advantage. Luck feat will also help. And Sharpshooter ignores cover too which compensates for the -5. Crossbow expert means two attacks at melee range and one of those can be the sneak attack. Speed cast by sorcerer means an additional shot that can be sneak attack (and only one sneak attack per turn)



Your primary stat will be dexterity so you would max that.

Meh. 16 dex seems plenty. Not sure it's worth two feats to max that. I'm already going to have lots of skills (11 skills at proficiency which will have minimal 10 roll, 6 of those with double proficiency), at great level for fancy dex (like acrobatics etc) stuff so the only real reason to max will be evasion(ok some boost to attacking too) , which won't do me much good if whatever targets some other stat. Also the sorcerer can put speed on me for even more insane evading.


4) At level 5 bard you get access to 3rd level spells and bardic inspiration refreshes on a short rest. 4/16 might maximize ASIs but I think you would be better off with 5/15 since the increase in bard abilities at level 5 is worthwhile. Also if you are taking bard to level 5, then having a good charisma is essential, so you would be boosting charisma


Meh. Bard doesn't have some amazing level 3 spells. The Arcane trickster can use those level 3 slots just as well and plenty of good level 1 and 2 spells in the mean time (and can be upslotted for additional benefit, like Blindness). I plan to make most or all of the Bard spells I choose be spells where spell casting level is irrelevant, there are plenty of good options, like Lesser Restoration or Enhance Ability for example.

Regarding middle mix, not sure. Maybe 8 levels Arcane trickster for evasion and second feat and second level spell then 3 Bard? Or 3 and 3? But then that might be too skill heavy at first, need more survive-ability.

Please keep in mind we are limited to stuff in the PHB

My stats I have planned as follows (we are using the point spending system)
High elf.
16 intel (after race)
16 dex
13 con (resilient con feat rounding it out to 14)
12 cha
10 Wis
8 Str

Also we are doing a special house rule where HP will be equivalent to level 10, no matter actual level. Multiclassing makes it a bit more complicated but there isn't a big difference between Rogues and Bards regarding HP.

BTW if you upslot Enhanced ability for 2+ different targets, can you boost two different ability skills in that one spell? Could you choose the same target twice?

[Greywander]

Only spells with Somatic attribute, or what's the point of that designation? I see no reason someone can't cast a spell that only uses voice while duel wielding.
Correct, verbal only spells don't require a free hand. A spell with somatic components requires a free hand. A spell with material components requires a free hand OR a spellcasting focus (except for materials that cost money or are consumed). A spell with both somatic and material components can use the same hand for both, even if that hand isn't "free".

For example, you can't normally use a hand holding a shield to perform somatic components, as the hand isn't free. But clerics and paladins can use a shield with their holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, allowing them to cast spells with somatic components with that hand, but only if the spell also uses material components. Spells with somatic components but no material components still can't be cast with the hand holding the shield.


Again, not with Skulker that makes it not reveal your position if you miss so your next attack can also be a sneak attack.
It's not about giving away your position, it's about making sure you get a Sneak Attack in every round. Rogues only get one attack, so if you miss then that means you won't get a Sneak Attack in that round. It's more important to make sure you land your attack every round than it is to try and squeeze a little extra damage out of each attack.

Extra Attack or some other method of making additional attacks will help, but I'd save something like the Sharpshooter -5/+10 thing for after you land your Sneak Attack. Make your first attack without the penalty, and if it hits, then you can make your remaining attacks with the penalty to get that extra damage. But if your first attack misses, then don't take the penalty, as you want to make sure you get that Sneak Attack to hit.


Meh. 16 dex seems plenty.
True, capping out at 16 in any ability score is perfectly serviceable. But it can hardly be called optimized. Because of the way D&D math works, every +1 gets more valuable the more of them you have, so it's generally better to try and push your bonuses as high as you possibly can. If you don't care about min/maxing, then 16 is fine, but if your goal is to optimize, then you should try to push DEX to 20 unless your build just really needs those feats to work.

Here's what you get for bumping DEX by 2: +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, +1 to AC, +1 to DEX saves, and +1 Stealth and other DEX skills. Because of Expertise and Reliable Talent, ability checks aren't the main reason for bumping DEX, it's the combat benefits (attack and damage rolls, AC, DEX saves).


Meh. Bard doesn't have some amazing level 3 spells.
Typically 3rd level spells have a significant power spike over 2nd level spells, so it would be worth looking over the list of bard spells again just to be sure there's nothing you want. Another thing to consider is that ATs can only get a handful of non-illusion or enchantment spells, so taking bard to 5 would let you pick up some more spells outside of those two schools.

[Keravath]

Only spells with Somatic attribute, or what's the point of that designation? I see no reason someone can't cast a spell that only uses voice while duel wielding.


Again, not with Skulker that makes it not reveal your position if you miss so your next attack can also be a sneak attack. And it will be done with advantage. Luck feat will also help. And Sharpshooter ignores cover too which compensates for the -5. Crossbow expert means two attacks at melee range and one of those can be the sneak attack. Speed cast by sorcerer means an additional shot that can be sneak attack (and only one sneak attack per turn)



Meh. 16 dex seems plenty. Not sure it's worth two feats to max that. I'm already going to have lots of skills (11 skills at proficiency which will have minimal 10 roll, 6 of those with double proficiency), at great level for fancy dex (like acrobatics etc) stuff so the only real reason to max will be evasion(ok some boost to attacking too) , which won't do me much good if whatever targets some other stat. Also the sorcerer can put speed on me for even more insane evading.



Meh. Bard doesn't have some amazing level 3 spells. The Arcane trickster can use those level 3 slots just as well and plenty of good level 1 and 2 spells in the mean time (and can be upslotted for additional benefit, like Blindness). I plan to make most or all of the Bard spells I choose be spells where spell casting level is irrelevant, there are plenty of good options, like Lesser Restoration or Enhance Ability for example.

Regarding middle mix, not sure. Maybe 8 levels Arcane trickster for evasion and second feat and second level spell then 3 Bard? Or 3 and 3? But then that might be too skill heavy at first, need more survive-ability.

Please keep in mind we are limited to stuff in the PHB

My stats I have planned as follows (we are using the point spending system)
High elf.
16 intel (after race)
16 dex
13 con (resilient con feat rounding it out to 14)
12 cha
10 Wis
8 Str

Also we are doing a special house rule where HP will be equivalent to level 10, no matter actual level. Multiclassing makes it a bit more complicated but there isn't a big difference between Rogues and Bards regarding HP.

BTW if you upslot Enhanced ability for 2+ different targets, can you boost two different ability skills in that one spell? Could you choose the same target twice?

1) You're right. Spells with somatic or material components require a free hand. I wasn't clear.
2) You need 13 charisma in order to multiclass into bard (based on the multiclassing rules in the PHB, if you are using them).
3) Your call on what you think is enough :) .. play it how you like :)

[molean]

A spell with both somatic and material components can use the same hand for both, even if that hand isn't "free"..

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You can do both somatic and material components with one hand that isn't "free"?

Is it like, you can't cast spells with material or somatic if duel wielding unless War caster? But otherwise it's not an issue?

[Greywander]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You can do both somatic and material components with one hand that isn't "free"?

Is it like, you can't cast spells with material or somatic if duel wielding unless War caster? But otherwise it's not an issue?
Let's consider again the example of a cleric with a holy symbol on their shield. The hand holding the shield isn't "free", so it can't perform somatic components. However, the shield counts as a spellcasting focus, so it can be used to perform material components, even though the hand isn't free. If a spell has both somatic and material components, you can perform both of them with the hand holding the shield, because the shield is a spellcasting focus. But a spell with somatic but not material components can't be performed with the the shield hand.

To put it another way, a hand holding a spellcasting focus can't be used for somatic components, unless it is also performing material components.

Yeah, if you're dual-wielding you will be unable to use either somatic or material components. Now, some weapons are also spellcasting foci, such as a staff, which would allow you to perform spells with material components, much like the cleric with their shield.

Warcaster allows you to perform somatic (but not material) components with a weapon or shield. If dual-wielding and not using a spellcasting focus, you'll be able to perform spells with somatic components, but not spells with material components.

Your best bet, especially with a multiclassed character, is to get a component pouch and try to always have a hand free. Bards and AT rogues use different spellcasting foci, so a component pouch makes it easier to use spells from either class. If you intend to use Crossbow Expert, you only need one hand crossbow for it to work (though some people may disagree), so you can leave your other hand free.

[molean]

Is there a finesse/range spell casting focus for rogues?

Setting aside spell casting focus's, the only time you don't have a free hand is duel wielding or shield and weapon? If a bow that uses two hands or a two handed weapon you are considered having a free hand for no problem spell casting since you can hold said weapon in one hand for long enough for the spell?

Please tell me where it says this business about material component requirements making it easier to cast spells with a focus is in the PHB or where ever.

[NNescio]

Is there a finesse/range spell casting focus for rogues?

Nope. Though you may be able to integrate the focus into the hilt of your weapon if your DM lets you get away with that. It's not... overly unbalancing, in of itself (since most of the time it's easier to just use an SCP), but it's cheesy ("I'm technically holding the focus, and RAW doesn't clearly define what "holding" means, so we default to the dictionary explanation etc. etc.") and can be potentially be exploited in a egregious manner by certain multiclass gish builds. Especially when magic items are involved.

Another way involves the improvised weapon rules. If your DM agrees that your focus is "similar" to a finessable weapon (e.g. a dagger), then it can be treated as such, potentially allowing you to SA with a focus sharpened into an improvised shiv. Though this approach might run into issues with improvised weapons not counting as actual weapons (RAW is unclear, Crawford says no but waffles a bit).

Anyhow, ATs don't get access to spellcasting foci anyway, so it's a moot point, barring multiclassing.



Setting aside spell casting focus's, the only time you don't have a free hand is duel wielding or shield and weapon? If a bow that uses two hands or a two handed weapon you are considered having a free hand for no problem spell casting since you can hold said weapon in one hand for long enough for the spell?

You might be holding onto a tool like a torch or lantern, or a magic item like a wand or potion. Or grappling or climbing. Those also take up hands.

But yeah, the two-handed property of certain weapons is only relevant when you're actually attacking with them. This was ambiguous, but later made clear in the errata.

Some DMs may require a "free interaction" on your turn to switch grips, putting a slight kibosh to this tactic. (I disagree with this interpretation, because most of the examples given that take up a "free interaction" involves more effort than this.)




Please tell me where it says this business about material component requirements making it easier to cast spells with a focus is in the PHB or where ever.

The rules for using the hand holding a material component or a spellcasting focus to also perform the somatic components of a spell only come into play when the spell actually has a material component. It doesn't apply for spells with somatic components but without material ones, so you can't use a wand/staff hand to cast Shield, for example.

This position has been clarified repeatedly by Crawford tweets and the SAC, so it's also RAI.

Some DMs don't like this because of the perceived... "ludonarrative dissonance", though this can be handwaved by saying that S-only spells require more intricate hand movements like finger wagging or other complicated finger gestures.

[Greywander]

Is there a finesse/range spell casting focus for rogues?
No, unfortunately. In fact, it seems ATs can't use spellcasting foci for their spells anyway. A component pouch, or the actual materials, is your only option.

Since ATs use wizard spells, though, it might make sense for them to use an arcane focus. You should ask your DM about this.


Setting aside spell casting focus's, the only time you don't have a free hand is duel wielding or shield and weapon? If a bow that uses two hands or a two handed weapon you are considered having a free hand for no problem spell casting since you can hold said weapon in one hand for long enough for the spell?
You also don't have a free hand if you're holding other items, such as potions. If using a two-handed weapon, you would have a free hand, as you can hold the weapon in one hand; the second hand is only required when you attack with that weapon.


Please tell me where it says this business about material component requirements making it easier to cast spells with a focus is in the PHB or where ever.

A spellcaster must have a free hand to access these [material] components, but it can be the same hand he or she uses to perform somatic components.
I suppose in a strict reading of the rules as given, even a hand holding a spellcasting focus isn't free, so you'd also need a free hand in addition to the one holding the focus. I don't know of anyone that interprets the rules that way.

[NNescio]

I suppose in a strict reading of the rules as given, even a hand holding a spellcasting focus isn't free, so you'd also need a free hand in addition to the one holding the focus. I don't know of anyone that interprets the rules that way.

Tanarii does, IIRC.

Though reading it this way means you only need a free hand to access the focus, like a material component, so you don't actually need to hold the focus to use it this way.

But if you're already holding the focus, then you need a second hand, according to this reading.

(In any case, while this interpretation technically adheres more closely to the literal reading of RAW, it directly contradicts some examples provided by the devs, such as the one given in the SAC about a wizard using a hand holding an orb spellcasting focus to also perform the somatic components of a Lightning Bolt spell.)

[ThePolarBear]

I suppose in a strict reading of the rules as given, even a hand holding a spellcasting focus isn't free, so you'd also need a free hand in addition to the one holding the focus. I don't know of anyone that interprets the rules that way.


Though reading it this way means you only need a free hand to access the focus, like a material component, so you don't actually need to hold the focus to use it this way.

That part has been subject of a text change. It now reads " -- or to hold a spellcasting focus --" in addition to what was quoted.

[molean]

How long does it take to switch weapons and so on? If I was tossing daggers, what actions would it take to draw each new dagger?

Similarly how long would it take to put away a dagger with duel wielding to cast a spell, and then draw said dagger again when needing to attack, how is that handled? Or say if I have a long bow I'm blasting enemies from afar with and then need to switch to a rapier because the enemy is close to me.

Something to keep in mind, if I got 5th level Bard, that would only give me two third level bard spells. I seriously ask this, do you know two third level Bard spells (one which would have to replace a level 1 or 2) that makes it worth losing a feat or 2 more dex? Plus specializing in Charisma like you suggested if not one of those spells that make spell caster level irrelevant.

As far as as intel verses charisma spell casting. Consider the type of spells I can use with each. Arcane trickster has some great low level illusions and enchantments (hello suggestion) that that can be used in lots of clever ways to compliment a rogue, but only of they aren't resisted. Intel also is a decent saving throw and compliments lots of skills. Charisma on the other hand had no real battle application other than spells and social wise that is already over represented between my mad skills with the multiclassing of rogue and bard plus a sorcerer who is picking social skills to be proficient in. And then there is Counter Spell and Dispel Magic boosted with their synergy with Bard which are complimented by Arcane knowledge to know whether a spell should be countered making me able to do a pretty good job of shutting down spell casters and giving great purpose to extra slots, and Counter Spell is not a Bard spell.

And as mentioned before, Bard has some good low level spells that are spell caster level independent making it so that I could easily make charisma my dump stat along with strength despite having levels of Bard.

But good point about multi-classing requiring a 13 in charisma. I could take bard as my first level, no rule saying you have to have a minimal charisma score to start out as a Bard, right? This would mean one less skill to be proficient in overall compared to a Rogue start though. (but instead I'd have proficiency in 3 useless instruments instead of 1, woohoo! What use is playing musical instruments in this game?)

Compared to multi-classing over to bard I could have 13 charisma and 9 wisdom, So one less saving throw etc in wisdom that I would never be able to afford to round up (or two if I did 12 wisdom and 8 charisma with starting out with Bard) So is it worth one more skill proficiency (of many eventually) for 1 less point in wisdom checks? Keep in mind that's one less skill benefiting from Reliable Expert assuming that it doesn't stack with Jack of all Trades.

Also, that first level of Bard with low charisma would be hell.

[Haydensan]

How long does it take to switch weapons and so on? If I was tossing daggers, what actions would it take to draw each new dagger?

Similarly how long would it take to put away a dagger with duel wielding to cast a spell, and then draw said dagger again when needing to attack, how is that handled? Or say if I have a long bow I'm blasting enemies from afar with and then need to switch to a rapier because the enemy is close to me.

This is covered by the object interaction rules. You get one one object interaction per round. Drawing or sheathing a weapon uses your object interaction, ie. drawing a dagger uses this. To draw an additional item would be your action. If you had the dual wielder feat you can draw two weapons at the same time, ie go from empty handed to one dagger in each hand.

The way bows get around this is with the ammuntion property.

[JackPhoenix]

But good point about multi-classing requiring a 13 in charisma. I could take bard as my first level, no rule saying you have to have a minimal charisma score to start out as a Bard, right? This would mean one less skill to be proficient in overall compared to a Rogue start though. (but instead I'd have proficiency in 3 useless instruments instead of 1, woohoo! What use is playing musical instruments in this game?)

Compared to multi-classing over to bard I could have 13 charisma and 9 wisdom, So one less saving throw etc in wisdom that I would never be able to afford to round up (or two if I did 12 wisdom and 8 charisma with starting out with Bard) So is it worth one more skill proficiency (of many eventually) for 1 less point in wisdom checks? Keep in mind that's one less skill benefiting from Reliable Expert assuming that it doesn't stack with Jack of all Trades.

Also, that first level of Bard with low charisma would be hell.

You need to fulfill the minimal ability score requirements for all classes you're using no matter what order you take them. If you have Cha 8 as a bard, you can never multiclass.

"To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one"

[molean]

Bards Song of Rest allows them to expend "Hit Dice" to heal a party more during a short rest. But what are "Hit Dice"? Does the Bard suffer damage to use Song of Rest, and if so, how much damage, equal to the heal that they themselves receive?

It says you can expend one or more "Hit Dice", does that mean you suffer more damage to heal the party more?

P.S. Yes "expending Hit Dice" probably doesn't mean you suffer damage since logically speaking that would be a really silly way to set up the ability. But that's how these badly/not at all explained words/term sounds. I could take further guesses as to its meaning but this guess serves to highlight my confusion over the text for getting an answer.

[JackPhoenix]

Bards Song of Rest allows them to expend "Hit Dice" to heal a party more during a short rest. But what are "Hit Dice"? Does the Bard suffer damage to use Song of Rest, and if so, how much damage, equal to the heal that they themselves receive?

It says you can expend one or more "Hit Dice", does that mean you suffer more damage to heal the party more?

P.S. Yes "expending Hit Dice" probably doesn't mean you suffer damage since logically speaking that would be a really silly way to set up the ability. But that's how these badly/not at all explained words/term sounds. I could take further guesses as to its meaning but this guess serves to highlight my confusion over the text for getting an answer.

You know, PHB has an index. Have you tried using it to search for terms you don't understand? The books explains what hit dice are, and how expending them works, and even that you don't need a bard to heal by expending HD.

[molean]

I have read what I could find on the subject, please help me the rest of the way.

So is "hit dice" one levels worth of HP?

When a spell like Color Spray talks about the number of HP of "creature" it can effect, does that mean the amount of combined levels of enemy? Or the max HP of all "creatures"? Or current HP of all "creatures"? Or some mix of these?

By "creature" does that mean anything that isn't a object/a being that can act? Or does it have a more specific meaning?

[bid]

So is "hit dice" one levels worth of HP?
Almost.
Hill dwarf +1 hp and tough +2 hp aren't added when you regain a HD-worth in short rest.

[molean]

When a spell like Color Spray talks about the number of HP of "creature" it can effect, does that mean the amount of combined levels of enemy? Or the max HP of all "creatures"? Or current HP of all "creatures"? Or some mix of these?


By "creature" does that mean anything that isn't a object/a being that can act? Or does it have a more specific meaning?

[JackPhoenix]

When a spell like Color Spray talks about the number of HP of "creature" it can effect, does that mean the amount of combined levels of enemy? Or the max HP of all "creatures"? Or current HP of all "creatures"? Or some mix of these?

If ability... any ability.... talks about HP, it talks about current HP, unless it specifically mentions max HP. It doesn't interact with HD at all.


By "creature" does that mean anything that isn't a object/a being that can act?

Pretty much.

[molean]

Can I ready a action of casting Misty Step and cause the trigger to be when a enemy attacks? Is it possible to ready misty step, someone attacks, you teleport behind them and then attack for a surprise attack?

[JackPhoenix]

Can I ready a action of casting Misty Step and cause the trigger to be when a enemy attacks? Is it possible to ready misty step, someone attacks, you teleport behind them and then attack for a surprise attack?

No.

Misty Step takes a bonus action, not action, so it can't be readied
Otherwise, you may ready a spell to go off after you're attacked, though you may lose concentration on it if you're damaged.
Teleporting (assuming you use something other than Misty Step) behind the enemy is pointless, there's no facing, and you could do the same thing by walking.... you don't provoke opportunity attacks as long as you don't try to leave opponent's reach. In addition, the opponent (usually) attacks you on his turn, which means you would be unable to attack until your turn anyway.

[molean]

Can you ready action in response to an opponent running up to you, and do that action before they attack you, what ever that action is?

Can you make a spell that can be used as a bonus action, or any ability like that, and put it in as your main action, and thus ready it? (so you're skipping your main action and using up your reaction to do it)

If you use your main action to ready, can you still use bonus actions? Can you still move on ready action turns?

If your ready action was an attack, do those who have extra attacks still get them?

P.S. I did read the ready action page of the PHB on P193 before posting these questions. LOL at looking up 'ready action' in the appendix, only to be told to look up 'action' when just listing the page number would have taken less space.

[JackPhoenix]

Can you ready action in response to an opponent running up to you, and do that action before they attack you, what ever that action is?

Assuming you set the readied action to be triggered when the enemy moves next to you instead of when they attack, sure.


Can you make a spell that can be used as a bonus action, or any ability like that, and put it in as your main action, and thus ready it? (so you're skipping your main action and using up your reaction to do it)

No


If you use your main action to ready, can you still use bonus actions? Can you still move on ready action turns?

On your turn, yes. Otherwise, you can ready either movement or an action, not both.


If your ready action was an attack, do those who have extra attacks still get them?

Nope: "Extra Attack: Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

[molean]

On your turn, yes. Otherwise, you can ready either movement or an action, not both.

So if you ready movement, you can still act on your turn? Can you use part of your movement and ready the rest?

[Anymage]

From the basic rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules), which you can browse through at dndbeyond.com


Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.

First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples include "If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I'll pull the lever that opens it," and "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away."

When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round.

When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell's magic requires concentration. If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, your concentration might be broken.

The site has a search function. For basic rules questions, that should be handier than asking here.

[JackPhoenix]

So if you ready movement, you can still act on your turn? Can you use part of your movement and ready the rest?

Ready is an action, even if you ready movement, so you'd need to have multiple actions (Action Surge, Haste) to ready movement and take another action. However, the readied movement doesn't care how much you've moved on your turn.... you can use up all your movement and then still move up to your speed with the readied action.

[bid]

However, the readied movement doesn't care how much you've moved on your turn.... you can use up all your movement and then still move up to your speed with the readied action.
Basically, you are readying dash.

Note that using your reaction to run away will still trigger opportunity attacks, use 10' as the trigger range.

[molean]

Thankyou BId, when you put it that way it becomes much easier to understand. Also thank you to everyone else too for answering my questions.

So let's say you are 30 feet from a goblin. The goblin can move 30 feet. You can move 30 feet. Can you ready a dash move to move away from the goblin for 30 feet after it has gotten 15 feet closer to you so it never gets close enough to do attacks of opportunity when you move?

If you have a familiar, you can have it aid a allie. Does having it aid another allie require you to spend any action or bonus action? Or do such beings just act on their own knowing what you want? I have looked in several places in the PHB and can not find anything on this.

If a player has been helped after they have acted, do they get advantage on attacks on opponents turn for readied actions or reactions? Since it specifies "before your next turn"