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Grim Portent
2019-12-08, 05:12 PM
So I've been poking about the logistics of maintaining a larger band of people/mercenaries in the context of D&D, and I've found myself wondering about the process of paying some of the more unusual potential hirelings like goblins, ogres and worgs.

Humans, dwarfs, elves and so forth will all generally prefer payment in coin, which is expensive over any long term period. But some monstrous races, such as the aforementioned goblins and ogres, will have a hard time spending money compared to the more civilised races, and worgs and other such intelligent beasts probably won't have any use for money at all.

So would it actually be more sensible to pay them in the stuff they actually want outright?

An ogre wants food, warmth and alcohol. Also the occasional chance to bully something smaller and weaker, but that's something to be worked around. Spices, alcohol and meat are pretty cheap by adventuring standards, and the spices which are more pricey go a long way. You could feed an ogre all it wants, let it drink itself silly every night, give it a comfy bedroll and several blankets and a spot by the fire, all in exchange for it's occasional help in fights or moving trees out of the way of your wagons, and it would be a lot cheaper than hiring a human soldier who wants actual money.

A small tribe of goblins seems like something that could be bought over pretty easy by someone stronger than their chief coming in and offering them a consistent supply of hot meals, dry shelter, alcohol and infrequent work.


Obviously D&D isn't really supposed to work around a party being bakers and bankers and paying people to fight for them while looking for the most cost efficient group to hire, but it has been on my mind that the 'bad guy' factions often seem to pay underlings and brute force minions in nothing more than raw meat and beatings, and ogres and goblins and such are usually portrayed as short on supplies, so why not try to use that?

LordEntrails
2019-12-08, 05:50 PM
Sure, "monster" races would want to be paid in things usable to them. Food, blankets, equipment and all that.

Just don't think it is going to be any cheaper than gold. Ogres eat lots of food, and waste even more. Goblins and kobolds also waste a lot, and probably don't take good care of their equipment so it has to be frequently replaced or repaired. And for ease the expense of providing all that "stuff" is the same as paying them in gold.

So, an ogre may require less gold in pay than a soldier, but it requires the same amount of gold in logistics and support.

As you said, D&D isn't Bakers and Bookkeepers. Don't bother trying to game the system. I mean you can if you want, but that's not adventuring is it?

wilphe
2019-12-08, 06:05 PM
Humans, dwarfs, elves and so forth will all generally prefer payment in coin, which is expensive over any long term period. But some monstrous races, such as the aforementioned goblins and ogres, will have a hard time spending money compared to the more civilised races, and worgs and other such intelligent beasts probably won't have any use for money at all.


Depends very much on the state of the economy and what assumptions you've made about it

If you have a cash economy and you can pay mercs in cash and they can buy what they need then great

Otherwise in more "realistic" setups your troops will also want pay in kind

+++++++++++

But some other things that you can offer other than money:


Equipment both mundane and magical

Not a lot of craftsmen in monster societies and definitely not many spellcasters

So you can get armour that fits you and was made properly rather than something bashed together out of scraps of medium sized armour scavenged from the battlefield

A place in Society

Normal mercs can want this to, at least the ambitious ones who can seek titles, land and one of the local nobilities less favoured offspring as a spouse

For a monster it means not living in a cave and having a retirement plan that isn't "get killed by a younger rival once your abilities fade". Because life as a monster sucks.

redwizard007
2019-12-08, 09:25 PM
Some solid thoughts so far. You also can't underestimate the value of plunder, revenge, religious motives and pure slaughter for motivating some monsterous soldiers.

Now I'd like to play LE-Outsider's advocate.

Considering some of the (half formed garbage that passes for monster) cultures in question, might it be fair to say that payment in goods may be considered unfavorable or even insulting if "civilized" species are paid in coin? Why human get shiny and ogre only get beer?

Orcs may consider property not taken through force to have no (or lesser) value. Sure that armor fits better, but I took this off a dwarf lord.

What about tribute to greater monsters? The dragon wants gold. I cant pay him off with arrows...

Beyond all that, of course you are arming and feeding your troops. What the heck kind of commander doesn't? How are you differentiating between regular rations and equipment, and payments of extra food or goods?

denthor
2019-12-09, 12:01 AM
Well another problem. Orges are chaotic evil. They won't fight if they feel cheated they feel cheated when asked to do something. They didn't get enough to eat and drink last night because they didn't get enough. They may attack you for suggesting they got enough.

Hobgoblins are lawful evil. They will fulfill the letter of the word. Kill the human in the blue armor if they find out the human is a half elf well. I fulfilled my contact you said human.They will not attack anything else unless attacked themselves in defense or not neccessary to get their target. Then they are free to leave the field. Until the next order is given after negotiations.

You need fear and intimidation to over come some of these things. You need to be evil yourself in the end.

Grim Portent
2019-12-09, 06:11 AM
Sure, "monster" races would want to be paid in things usable to them. Food, blankets, equipment and all that.

Just don't think it is going to be any cheaper than gold. Ogres eat lots of food, and waste even more. Goblins and kobolds also waste a lot, and probably don't take good care of their equipment so it has to be frequently replaced or repaired. And for ease the expense of providing all that "stuff" is the same as paying them in gold.

So, an ogre may require less gold in pay than a soldier, but it requires the same amount of gold in logistics and support.

As you said, D&D isn't Bakers and Bookkeepers. Don't bother trying to game the system. I mean you can if you want, but that's not adventuring is it?

I was doing the math on them as a followup to doing it for having a wagon train of normal soldiers, which I was originally doing because I was following up on a thought about actually dealing with cargo and transport in game rather than hand waving it.

An ogre would need to eat/waste it's own body weight in food every day to cost as much as a human soldier. That said, the upfront costs are very high if you expect to feed it for any length of time, I worked it out as 4 wagons and 8 draft horses to carry food and water for themselves and 30 humans for 10 days, plus spare clothes, tents, ropes and miscellaneous supplies, most of it being water and lamp oil. Even included soap in my budgeting. Swapping to a food based payment system for something like an ogre requires a lot more cargo space, which means more wagons, which means more horses and in turn more horse feed, which cuts into the space even more. I haven't even thought about how much water an ogre would need, but if it's anything like what a horse needs it'd almost need it's own wagon just for water for any trips without reliable fresh water sources, and that of course means the horses for that wagon need feed and water.


Depends very much on the state of the economy and what assumptions you've made about it

If you have a cash economy and you can pay mercs in cash and they can buy what they need then great

Otherwise in more "realistic" setups your troops will also want pay in kind

+++++++++++

But some other things that you can offer other than money:


Equipment both mundane and magical

Not a lot of craftsmen in monster societies and definitely not many spellcasters

So you can get armour that fits you and was made properly rather than something bashed together out of scraps of medium sized armour scavenged from the battlefield

A place in Society

Normal mercs can want this to, at least the ambitious ones who can seek titles, land and one of the local nobilities less favoured offspring as a spouse

For a monster it means not living in a cave and having a retirement plan that isn't "get killed by a younger rival once your abilities fade". Because life as a monster sucks.

I did do the math on human mercs in bed, board and cash all at once. Was bored so I was being quite thorough. Rations and ale are both cheap, it's the up front cost of wagons and draft animals and cash wages over time that gets pricey. My thought is that most monsters live a subsistence lifestyle in a non-cash society, so they don't need money to tide them over between jobs like a human or dwarf would, they just go back to being monsters, similar to how real life mercs often just resorted to being bandits when jobs weren't available and they ran out of money.

Buying them gear would be smart, pricey, but smart. Trying to clad any number of goblins or ogres in decent gear would cost a fortune.

Long term retirement plans are probably not something many would expect or demand, I doubt a worg or an ogre spares much thought to old age. Would be hard to provide for them without going full dark lord and establishing a whole army to carve out a monster kingdom.


Some solid thoughts so far. You also can't underestimate the value of plunder, revenge, religious motives and pure slaughter for motivating some monsterous soldiers.

Now I'd like to play LE-Outsider's advocate.

Considering some of the (half formed garbage that passes for monster) cultures in question, might it be fair to say that payment in goods may be considered unfavorable or even insulting if "civilized" species are paid in coin? Why human get shiny and ogre only get beer?

Orcs may consider property not taken through force to have no (or lesser) value. Sure that armor fits better, but I took this off a dwarf lord.

What about tribute to greater monsters? The dragon wants gold. I cant pay him off with arrows...

Beyond all that, of course you are arming and feeding your troops. What the heck kind of commander doesn't? How are you differentiating between regular rations and equipment, and payments of extra food or goods?

I was considering the cost of a hireling as separate from the cost of feeding them. So to use 5e ones as an example, 2gp a day plus the food, water and miscellaneous gear they need to do their job, weapons and armour not included.

Some monsters wouldn't accept quality of life goods like food and alcohol as payment certainly. Hobgoblins would probably want the resources to wage their own wars, dragons want treasure, fiends souls and so forth, but there are plenty of races for whom something better than a chunk of unseasoned meat and river water should be quite appealing. Plenty of humans join armies to escape poverty or famine after all, and it's a similar situation.


Well another problem. Orges are chaotic evil. They won't fight if they feel cheated they feel cheated when asked to do something. They didn't get enough to eat and drink last night because they didn't get enough. They may attack you for suggesting they got enough.

Hobgoblins are lawful evil. They will fulfill the letter of the word. Kill the human in the blue armor if they find out the human is a half elf well. I fulfilled my contact you said human.They will not attack anything else unless attacked themselves in defense or not neccessary to get their target. Then they are free to leave the field. Until the next order is given after negotiations.

You need fear and intimidation to over come some of these things. You need to be evil yourself in the end.

If an ogre disobeys me after I elevate his living standards multiple steps in exchange for service then I'll beat the ungrateful wretch half to death in front of his peers, all the way to death if they don't shape up after that. They're strong creatures, useful to have around, but expendable. Everything's expendable when you get right down to it.

I would expect hobgoblins to take more professional pride in their work than that. They're career soldiers as a species, killing people is what they do. Laziness and nitpicking isn't really their thing. Wouldn't expect to pay them in this manner anyway though, they live comfortable lives in most depictions, they'd want actual money, military resources or a chance to join a real war.

I wouldn't expect to command the loyalty of even a human mercenary, let alone a group, without some force to back up my money, making demonstrations out of disobedient soldiers is kind of par for the course when running an army.

False God
2019-12-09, 04:26 PM
The invention of coin was to in part, be a placeholder for hoarding trade goods and function as a sort of IOU. You pay money for supplies.

The truly cunning capitalist does not decide to pay "monstrous" races in goods instead of coin because those races have trouble spending the money in civilized society. The cunning capitalist establishes trade posts that are targeted at those groups. So that ideally, the Cunning Capitalist will hire these races to perform various tasks, then pay them in coin, which they are most likely to spend at Cunning Capitalist's own stores.

Since we aren't dealing with modern labor laws, he could even pay them in Capitalist Bucks, which are worth just as much as coin if you spend them in Capitalist Land, but can be traded for "gold coin" at a reduced value. Cunning Capitalist could eventually establish a whole "monstrous" society with the added benefit of civilizing those races further to make them more effective at the various tasks Cunning Capitalist needs them to do.

Why beat your hirelings for doing poorly when you could just cut them out of the only economy (by not hiring them for jobs, or giving them a bad boss review) they can participate in and force them to go back to the "wild" lifestyle they had before Cunning Capitalist trained them enjoy a more civilized and cultured society?

Ultimately the purpose of coin is to purchase goods. Paying workers in goods can be cheaper (since the employer can buy in bulk, usually for a discount) but takes away the feeling of choice and freedom that comes with just having "money".

With the system descried above, you can deny them true freedom while still maintain the illusion.




....no IRL commentary intended.

Guizonde
2019-12-09, 05:22 PM
The invention of coin was to in part, be a placeholder for hoarding trade goods and function as a sort of IOU. You pay money for supplies.

The truly cunning capitalist does not decide to pay "monstrous" races in goods instead of coin because those races have trouble spending the money in civilized society. The cunning capitalist establishes trade posts that are targeted at those groups. So that ideally, the Cunning Capitalist will hire these races to perform various tasks, then pay them in coin, which they are most likely to spend at Cunning Capitalist's own stores.

Since we aren't dealing with modern labor laws, he could even pay them in Capitalist Bucks, which are worth just as much as coin if you spend them in Capitalist Land, but can be traded for "gold coin" at a reduced value. Cunning Capitalist could eventually establish a whole "monstrous" society with the added benefit of civilizing those races further to make them more effective at the various tasks Cunning Capitalist needs them to do.

Why beat your hirelings for doing poorly when you could just cut them out of the only economy (by not hiring them for jobs, or giving them a bad boss review) they can participate in and force them to go back to the "wild" lifestyle they had before Cunning Capitalist trained them enjoy a more civilized and cultured society?

Ultimately the purpose of coin is to purchase goods. Paying workers in goods can be cheaper (since the employer can buy in bulk, usually for a discount) but takes away the feeling of choice and freedom that comes with just having "money".

With the system descried above, you can deny them true freedom while still maintain the illusion.




....no IRL commentary intended.

wow, that's cold, calculating, and pure evil. are you sure you don't have the lawyer template or the crooked politician prc? no offense intended, i'm taking notes, here!

but if i read correctly, the op wants to know how it would work in non-evil aligned settlements.

Grim Portent
2019-12-09, 05:45 PM
There's evil, and then there's 'you must shop at the company store and pay rent for your company house evil.' Even Sauron would balk at that. :smalltongue:


@Guizonde

My thought process is more that the cost of raising a goblin or similar's living standards is actually quite cheap in terms of goods, even if you do more for them than the usual tyrannical conqueror is portrayed as doing to win their loyalty. Good and evil don't really come into it beyond a good person not generally having call for monstrous mercenaries.

Go in, offer to provide the tribe/clan/band a life of relative comfort compared to what they had before in exchange for fighting, scouting and guarding for you as opposed to hunting, stealing and raiding for subsistence living. It feels like a sensible deal for the goblins, and they are as smart as humans in d&d even if they aren't usually civilised so I'd expect them to mull it over rather than reject it out of hand.

Hell, most warlords only offer the prospect of a better life later on after the war has been won, I'm thinking stew and spiced bread, beer and warm blankets starting today and for every day in the foreseeable future. Obviously the hard part is scaling it up, but I was still only thinking in the 30 odd people range when I started considering monster supplies.

False God
2019-12-09, 08:59 PM
wow, that's cold, calculating, and pure evil. are you sure you don't have the lawyer template or the crooked politician prc? no offense intended, i'm taking notes, here!

but if i read correctly, the op wants to know how it would work in non-evil aligned settlements.
I've worked in law but am not a lawyer and am a political scientist so....kinda.

The fun part about building societies is that eventually the L portion of the alignment begins to overwhelmingly dominate the G/N/E portion of the alignment. Making a society entirely of evildoers like the Drow or Sauron's minions is really unsustainable in the long run. The Society you've built at large is more to support your evil operations, which will eventually make up a functionally small portion of the society as a whole.

The Society will exist largely to make it easier for you to recruit more trustworthy, more skilled, and if necessary more diabolical associates and underlings. Most of the members of The Society will likely be of a neutral sort, going about their daily lives with a general feeling that they can't stop you, but as long as they're not personally required to do your evil deeds, they're not going to try either.

In fact if your Society begins to produce goods and services of value, the other nations that likely surround you (or eventually will as your borders grow) will become more inclined to do business with you, regardless of your particular alignment. Especially if you emphasize the Lawful element of your society, and the positive monetary value of establishing trade relationships. Sure, you conquered some small neighboring feudal lords, ok, it's quite possible your trained assassins killed the emperor of Distant Land, but neither of these particular enemies of yours were allies of your allies, or even really useful trade partners.

It won't be until they start putting the pieces together that the new leadership of Distant Land is a puppet and you've been slowly eliminating anyone else they could possibly trade with via diplomatic maneuvering, economic undercutting or actual violence that you're their only option. At which point instead of your nation proving your value to them, they will have to start proving their value to you.

The ultimate outcome may be evil, or at least conquest. But world domination is not inherently the game of evil-doers, but since they do play it, the do-gooders have to play the game too. The end goal of course is the establishment of a society strong enough to withstand new world domination efforts by others, and of course the best way to ensure that you are strong enough to repel the efforts of "others" is to ensure that there are as few others as possible. AKA: world domination. Even if you don't rule them all directly, or even indirectly via puppets, you can at least make sure they're all playing your game by forcing them to engage in your preferred method of trade with your preferred trading partners.



.....again, no IRL commentary intended.


There's evil, and then there's 'you must shop at the company store and pay rent for your company house evil.' Even Sauron would balk at that. :smalltongue:


@Guizonde

My thought process is more that the cost of raising a goblin or similar's living standards is actually quite cheap in terms of goods, even if you do more for them than the usual tyrannical conqueror is portrayed as doing to win their loyalty. Good and evil don't really come into it beyond a good person not generally having call for monstrous mercenaries.

Go in, offer to provide the tribe/clan/band a life of relative comfort compared to what they had before in exchange for fighting, scouting and guarding for you as opposed to hunting, stealing and raiding for subsistence living. It feels like a sensible deal for the goblins, and they are as smart as humans in d&d even if they aren't usually civilised so I'd expect them to mull it over rather than reject it out of hand.

Hell, most warlords only offer the prospect of a better life later on after the war has been won, I'm thinking stew and spiced bread, beer and warm blankets starting today and for every day in the foreseeable future. Obviously the hard part is scaling it up, but I was still only thinking in the 30 odd people range when I started considering monster supplies.

Well, it starts small and grows. You bring in a few and start a camp, that camp grows into a settlement, a settlement into a small town, so on and so forth, branching out and founding new settlements as is necessary to hunt new game, farm different crops, mine new materials.

Eventually the good you provide are replaced by the goods they provide themselves in the process of working for you. You start phasing out the supply of goods and replace it with currency which they can trade with each other, since now you've hired trappers to feed your mercenaries, healers to heal your warriors, and general labor that does not fight but builds the dwellings and other structures necessary to support your mercenaries and their growing entourage. Eventually your mercenary force transitions to a more structured military force.

Congratulations, you've built a society. YOU may be evil, but your society doesn't have to be.

"Base building" is one of my favorite elements of gaming, it's a shame so few DMs actually seem to want to run it.

Duff
2019-12-09, 09:26 PM
Land specifically has a few historical ways of being used:
Take the historical way the Romans gave land to various "tribes" on condition that they defend that area and contribute to central armies. Eg, the Goths
Earlier imperial Roman conquest armies recruited soldiers with the expectation that the soldiers would be able to settle in the conquered lands. I think that might even go back to Julius Ceaser (so, slightly pre-imperial)
The land provided to a medieval knight in exchange for service is a different way of exchanging land for military service

Knaight
2019-12-10, 12:55 AM
Company scrip aside (the clever capitalist was predated by a lot of late 19th and early 20th century robber barons here), payment in things other than coin was pretty common even historically. The Ancient Warfare Podcast had a whole episode on it, and while their focus tends to be on Mediterranean warfare in antiquity the same principles apply in a lot of places. Coin was still part of it, but so were supplies.

Anachronity
2019-12-10, 03:34 PM
Well another problem. Orges are chaotic evil. They won't fight if they feel cheated they feel cheated when asked to do something. They didn't get enough to eat and drink last night because they didn't get enough. They may attack you for suggesting they got enough.Pretty much this. The largest issue with typical monstrous mercs would be morale. They tend to be portrayed as innately stupid, petty, vicious, short-sighted, jealous, prideful, cowardly, etc. so that when PCs slaughter them by the hundreds you don't really feel bad about it. But that means that, aside from food and lodging, they themselves might not have a good understanding of what it is they want. Mostly they would want status, though they would voice that as "I'm better than them, so I deserve better stuff." regardless of who exactly 'them' is. So if 'they' are getting gold the monster will want to get more gold, even if they can't really use it, because they know it's a status symbol. They'll likely continue to believe this unless 'they' are stronger in a very visible way (e.g. bigger or all glowy and magical or something).

I expect there would be a lot of backstabbing, petty "accidents", and other various jockeying for position. War trophies are valuable because they prove the monster is more worthwhile than its compatriots and therefore deserves a better status. The best way to keep them in line is, well...


You need fear and intimidation to over come some of these things. You need to be evil yourself in the end.Yeah pretty much. They need to be intimidated into being happy with what they have. Either by making the status ladder seem too risky to climb without the approval of the evil overlord or their lieutenants, or by just having too wide a gulf to cross to want further advancement (e.g. if the evil overlord is a powerful sorcerer that regularly makes a show of single-handedly blasting away legions).


Hobgoblins are an altogether different story. They're basically ruthless mercenaries: the race. As such they'll probably take anything that has some form of value to them as payment. The only difficulty is determining exactly how much value various things have to them. Supply and demand and all that.

Guizonde
2019-12-10, 03:40 PM
I've worked in law but am not a lawyer and am a political scientist so....kinda.

The fun part about building societies is that eventually the L portion of the alignment begins to overwhelmingly dominate the G/N/E portion of the alignment. Making a society entirely of evildoers like the Drow or Sauron's minions is really unsustainable in the long run. The Society you've built at large is more to support your evil operations, which will eventually make up a functionally small portion of the society as a whole.

The Society will exist largely to make it easier for you to recruit more trustworthy, more skilled, and if necessary more diabolical associates and underlings. Most of the members of The Society will likely be of a neutral sort, going about their daily lives with a general feeling that they can't stop you, but as long as they're not personally required to do your evil deeds, they're not going to try either.

In fact if your Society begins to produce goods and services of value, the other nations that likely surround you (or eventually will as your borders grow) will become more inclined to do business with you, regardless of your particular alignment. Especially if you emphasize the Lawful element of your society, and the positive monetary value of establishing trade relationships. Sure, you conquered some small neighboring feudal lords, ok, it's quite possible your trained assassins killed the emperor of Distant Land, but neither of these particular enemies of yours were allies of your allies, or even really useful trade partners.

It won't be until they start putting the pieces together that the new leadership of Distant Land is a puppet and you've been slowly eliminating anyone else they could possibly trade with via diplomatic maneuvering, economic undercutting or actual violence that you're their only option. At which point instead of your nation proving your value to them, they will have to start proving their value to you.

The ultimate outcome may be evil, or at least conquest. But world domination is not inherently the game of evil-doers, but since they do play it, the do-gooders have to play the game too. The end goal of course is the establishment of a society strong enough to withstand new world domination efforts by others, and of course the best way to ensure that you are strong enough to repel the efforts of "others" is to ensure that there are as few others as possible. AKA: world domination. Even if you don't rule them all directly, or even indirectly via puppets, you can at least make sure they're all playing your game by forcing them to engage in your preferred method of trade with your preferred trading partners.



.....again, no IRL commentary intended.



Well, it starts small and grows. You bring in a few and start a camp, that camp grows into a settlement, a settlement into a small town, so on and so forth, branching out and founding new settlements as is necessary to hunt new game, farm different crops, mine new materials.

Eventually the good you provide are replaced by the goods they provide themselves in the process of working for you. You start phasing out the supply of goods and replace it with currency which they can trade with each other, since now you've hired trappers to feed your mercenaries, healers to heal your warriors, and general labor that does not fight but builds the dwellings and other structures necessary to support your mercenaries and their growing entourage. Eventually your mercenary force transitions to a more structured military force.

Congratulations, you've built a society. YOU may be evil, but your society doesn't have to be.

"Base building" is one of my favorite elements of gaming, it's a shame so few DMs actually seem to want to run it.

this litterally happened in a game i dm'ed where i was outwitted by the players. by the time i caught on, they litterally controlled a fifth of the in-game world, had allies, manoeuvred their armies in chokepoints and were preparing to go full-on assault on the bad guys. were we playing dnd, their alignments at best would be chaotic neutral (for one of them. the others were more or less all evil). their society, after the ensuing civil war, became either neutral, or full-on good.

well, with one major difference. they didn't outsource or crowd-source the violence at first. they strong-armed their way into getting logistics going for them, built a corporation, and only then did they militarize it, once they had the means of production. but it was a post-apocalyptic campaign, so there was already infrastructure in place. all that was needed was to take control of it.

the campaign after that one, the team (where i played a pc) went about destroying that empire, and this time we did crowd-source the violence since that empire bred malcontents faster than you can say "4chan".

AMFV
2019-12-10, 06:05 PM
Well another problem. Orges are chaotic evil. They won't fight if they feel cheated they feel cheated when asked to do something. They didn't get enough to eat and drink last night because they didn't get enough. They may attack you for suggesting they got enough.

Well then you would need to make sure you were feeding them enough, or were big and tough enough that you could get them into line.



Hobgoblins are lawful evil. They will fulfill the letter of the word. Kill the human in the blue armor if they find out the human is a half elf well. I fulfilled my contact you said human.They will not attack anything else unless attacked themselves in defense or not neccessary to get their target. Then they are free to leave the field. Until the next order is given after negotiations.

Well you probably wouldn't have a mercenary contract that had only one term in it, that would be really poor contracting and therefore would be a poor thing for somebody lawful to do.



You need fear and intimidation to over come some of these things. You need to be evil yourself in the end.

No, just smart, maybe big and intimidating, but fear and intimidation are not inherently evil.

LordEntrails
2019-12-10, 11:17 PM
An ogre would need to eat/waste it's own body weight in food every day to cost as much as a human soldier. That said, the upfront costs are very high if you expect to feed it for any length of time, I worked it out as 4 wagons and 8 draft horses to carry food and water for themselves and 30 humans for 10 days, plus spare clothes, tents, ropes and miscellaneous supplies, most of it being water and lamp oil. Even included soap in my budgeting. Swapping to a food based payment system for something like an ogre requires a lot more cargo space, which means more wagons, which means more horses and in turn more horse feed, which cuts into the space even more. I haven't even thought about how much water an ogre would need, but if it's anything like what a horse needs it'd almost need it's own wagon just for water for any trips without reliable fresh water sources, and that of course means the horses for that wagon need feed and water.

Water?! I don't no filthy water! Beer, mead and Ale!! Kegs and kegs of it. Couple of roasted pigs, goblins, gnomes or whatever each day! Pay me, Pay Me!!!

Slipperychicken
2019-12-11, 01:20 AM
Obligatory mention of oompa loompas who are canonically paid in cocoa beans, and ancient romans who were sometimes paid in salt

I'd push that further and make each monster-race accept a different rare high value commodity, usually a spice or delicacy, the logistics of which are a whole quest-line or ongoing minigame in itself. Also if you don't get them their specific payment on time, they usually quit on the spot and may be freely recruited by the enemy. Good luck keeping those rare orchids flowing from a distant jungle to to your centaur mounted-cavalry while you're trying to fight a war, or those bizarre tea leaves for your divination specialist, or willing sacrifices for your demon.

Man, of course, is no exception: Mercenary humans will accept only gold, and will happily plunder or extort an employer who fails to pay them on time.

And also you might have a dynamic where each side tries to raid each others' supply of weird monster-payment objects, to make enemy monsters quit or change sides.

Satinavian
2019-12-11, 02:30 AM
Nonmonetary payment for mercenaries would not be uncommon or problematic.

But it should not actually be cheaper. Market balances itself out. If some kinds of mercenaries work for cheap either everyone hires those and the prices for mercenaries go down or the cheap ones raaise their demands to market price.

Payment in money has the benefit of being easy to move and to store. Payment in other stuff might have the advantage of being easy to procure and to use if the mercenaries operate in a nonmonetary environment.

But the prices should always be comparable. D&D price lists are stupid and don't work for an economic simulation. They are for adventurers buying gear and contracting services. Using them beyond that leads to nothing but madness.

Berenger
2019-12-11, 04:19 AM
A few random thoughts:

1. Loot. If you can offer mercenaries the prospect of rich loot, this might be payment enough. Obviously, you need to provide something the mercenaries lack: the necessary leadership, troop strenght and / or legitimacy for the campaign. Otherwise, they could just do it by themselves.

2. War and Peace: During war, prices for mercenaries may skyrocket. During peace, they will go down.

3. Light Duty vs. Heavy Duty: If you want a mercenary to storm the walls of a fortress or do battle against a horde of ogres, that will be expensive. The same mercenary might settle for a lower wage to patrol safe-ish trade routes or stand guard at a city gate.

Knaight
2019-12-11, 04:59 AM
But it should not actually be cheaper. Market balances itself out. If some kinds of mercenaries work for cheap either everyone hires those and the prices for mercenaries go down or the cheap ones raaise their demands to market price.

You're thinking too modern here - general market balance via supply/demand curves is at best a minor concern. Significantly more major is your enemy paying your specific mercenaries more than you. There's a few specific historical examples of mercenaries that actually have a decent reputation for loyalty, but they aren't the norm.

Dr paradox
2019-12-11, 05:10 AM
The invention of coin was to in part, be a placeholder for hoarding trade goods and function as a sort of IOU. You pay money for supplies.

The truly cunning capitalist does not decide to pay "monstrous" races in goods instead of coin because those races have trouble spending the money in civilized society. The cunning capitalist establishes trade posts that are targeted at those groups. So that ideally, the Cunning Capitalist will hire these races to perform various tasks, then pay them in coin, which they are most likely to spend at Cunning Capitalist's own stores.

Since we aren't dealing with modern labor laws, he could even pay them in Capitalist Bucks, which are worth just as much as coin if you spend them in Capitalist Land, but can be traded for "gold coin" at a reduced value. Cunning Capitalist could eventually establish a whole "monstrous" society with the added benefit of civilizing those races further to make them more effective at the various tasks Cunning Capitalist needs them to do.

Why beat your hirelings for doing poorly when you could just cut them out of the only economy (by not hiring them for jobs, or giving them a bad boss review) they can participate in and force them to go back to the "wild" lifestyle they had before Cunning Capitalist trained them enjoy a more civilized and cultured society?

Ultimately the purpose of coin is to purchase goods. Paying workers in goods can be cheaper (since the employer can buy in bulk, usually for a discount) but takes away the feeling of choice and freedom that comes with just having "money".

With the system descried above, you can deny them true freedom while still maintain the illusion.

The issue with this is convincing the monstrous societies in question to accept the capitalist structure you offer.

What pushes most of these societies to the frontiers to begin with is their LACK of respect for the structures of "civilized" societies. Goblins aren't forbidden from shopping in the bazaar because of garden variety racism (You'll see half-orcs, tieflings, aarackocra, fir bolg, and dragonborn in your average faerun market), Goblins are forbidden from shopping in the bazaar because they see little point in paying for goods while they've got a spear and little sense of their own mortality.

If you set up trading posts specifically to trade with goblins and ogres, you'll either spend a fortune on security or wind up with a looted trading post. If you guard it sufficiently to warn off one ogre clan, they'll go tell their cousins about this great building full of all the stuff they want. Hobgoblins and maybe orcs will be a little smarter - they'll allow the trading post to keep existing, they'll just choke it off with attacks on the resupply wagons. Then the wagons stop, and they go loot the trading post.

I see the wrangling of these forces as a little more irregular. You need to treat them more like privateers - you give them a badge and an assurane that, since they're part of a war effort, nobody cares that they're looting and pillaging, and they're welcome to a keg of ale or two from your supply train. Then you let them range ahead demolishing villages and sowing chaos, not to mention blunting the lances of your enemy's knights. Monsters are most useful for distributing the chaos of your invasion, giving your more coordinated forces a chance to strike priority targets while the local nobles are scrambling to keep your goblin pyros from torching their season's harvest. The caveats to this approach are that a.) it only works on offensives, b.) it makes sieges that much harder, since you're counting on arriving to find many areas pre-looted, and c.) it's probably evil, since you're just giving monsters free reign to terrorize the locals under your banner. You may expect a certain amount of armed resistance.

To a degree, you can control this a bit by contracting not with the monsters, but with whoever's already pulling their strings. Oni can wrangle Ogres to your purpose, Hobgoblins can assemble goblin and bugbear hordes, and a young dragon or even a wyrmling will inspire reverence in a pack of kobolds. You can deal with these creatures, give them broad or specific directives, and let them run their own mercenary units without direct oversight. It wouldn't do to have the underlings questioning the leadership of their chieftain, after all - all they need to know is that they've got a Good Fight to get to, and Lots of Goodies waiting for them when they're done.

If you need an Ogre to be a siege engine, or a kobold to be a sapper, or a Bugbear to be an assassin, you're better off taking them individually. One on one, they're less likely to get bright ideas, and you can more effectively keep them convinced that they've got a Good Thing Going if they feel special and not like just another Ogre in your Wallpounder division. Maybe set up units of regular troops centered around a single Troll or Ogre, dedicated to supporting and controlling the monster.

Important caveat, this is all assuming pretty basic fantasy cliches. Of course many settings use more complex, nuanced takes on these cultures, and I don't mean to suggest that the concepts of Orcs, Kobolds, and Goblins are all barbaric, inherently criminal scum beyond the reach of civilization's elevating influence. That that's the baseline assumption is a wholly different set of signifiers to unpack.

False God
2019-12-12, 12:29 AM
The issue with this is convincing the monstrous societies in question to accept the capitalist structure you offer.
You don't need to convince a society, and even if you do, it's unlikely that there is one homogenous "monster society" for each monster race. There are probably numerous goblin/orc/whatever tribes. If one won't do business with you, slaughter them as a demonstration to the others, eventually they'll come to the table.


What pushes most of these societies to the frontiers to begin with is their LACK of respect for the structures of "civilized" societies. Goblins aren't forbidden from shopping in the bazaar because of garden variety racism (You'll see half-orcs, tieflings, aarackocra, fir bolg, and dragonborn in your average faerun market), Goblins are forbidden from shopping in the bazaar because they see little point in paying for goods while they've got a spear and little sense of their own mortality.

If you set up trading posts specifically to trade with goblins and ogres, you'll either spend a fortune on security or wind up with a looted trading post. If you guard it sufficiently to warn off one ogre clan, they'll go tell their cousins about this great building full of all the stuff they want. Hobgoblins and maybe orcs will be a little smarter - they'll allow the trading post to keep existing, they'll just choke it off with attacks on the resupply wagons. Then the wagons stop, and they go loot the trading post.
The trick is in hiring the monsters themselves to protect the shop. Obviously there will be some trial and error, but it only takes a few monsters who understand "The shop provides goods to us, and we're tasked with protecting the shop, without the shop we have no goods and no jobs." You're an evil capitalist anyway, just kill all the monsters who don't get it. Given their monstrous nature, they're likely to respond positively to strongman tactics.


I see the wrangling of these forces as a little more irregular. You need to treat them more like privateers - you give them a badge and an assurane that, since they're part of a war effort, nobody cares that they're looting and pillaging, and they're welcome to a keg of ale or two from your supply train. Then you let them range ahead demolishing villages and sowing chaos, not to mention blunting the lances of your enemy's knights. Monsters are most useful for distributing the chaos of your invasion, giving your more coordinated forces a chance to strike priority targets while the local nobles are scrambling to keep your goblin pyros from torching their season's harvest. The caveats to this approach are that a.) it only works on offensives, b.) it makes sieges that much harder, since you're counting on arriving to find many areas pre-looted, and c.) it's probably evil, since you're just giving monsters free reign to terrorize the locals under your banner. You may expect a certain amount of armed resistance.
The problem there is that they are loyal only to the coin, not your coin. You may be evil, and wealthy, but that doesn't mean another individual isn't wealthier, and potentially eviler. You can sometimes keep mercenaries on lower pay with proper treatment, but ultimately if they're only loyal to the coin, you're running the risk of the same problem you do in real life: someone else has more money. You should always assume someone else has more money.


To a degree, you can control this a bit by contracting not with the monsters, but with whoever's already pulling their strings. Oni can wrangle Ogres to your purpose, Hobgoblins can assemble goblin and bugbear hordes, and a young dragon or even a wyrmling will inspire reverence in a pack of kobolds. You can deal with these creatures, give them broad or specific directives, and let them run their own mercenary units without direct oversight. It wouldn't do to have the underlings questioning the leadership of their chieftain, after all - all they need to know is that they've got a Good Fight to get to, and Lots of Goodies waiting for them when they're done.
Contracting with established leadership figures is also a great way to set up your "company towns". Since all you really need to do is convince a handful of people (the Warlord, the Elders, etc...) that your way is better, and they'll do all the hard work of keeping their people from looting and pillaging your shops and trade caravans. Further, the people at the top are even more likely to be seduced by the comforts of wealth and power (since they likely to a degree already enjoy them), but on the same token, since they have achieved wealth and power without you, you run the risk of them demanding ever more. Eventually you'd likely want to raise up all their people enough and then set up a coup to install a long-term leader loyal to your ideas.


If you need an Ogre to be a siege engine, or a kobold to be a sapper, or a Bugbear to be an assassin, you're better off taking them individually. One on one, they're less likely to get bright ideas, and you can more effectively keep them convinced that they've got a Good Thing Going if they feel special and not like just another Ogre in your Wallpounder division. Maybe set up units of regular troops centered around a single Troll or Ogre, dedicated to supporting and controlling the monster.
Ultimately, the "Monster Towns" exist to produce these unique individuals in greater and more reliable numbers. That's their real purpose. Less of them being killed in random raids, having a larger pool to draw from, and the potential of actual training.

"Monster Towns" in this setup are basically farms established to breed better soldiers. A real lasting society may come later naturally, but that's not the point. The "dog and pony show" of the trade, the town itsself and so on is to discourage enemy raids (good-aligned civilized societies get shy about attacking "civilized" races) and to present the illusion of a superior quality of life and greater freedom for the monsters themselves.

To quote Rick & Morty:
Oh, they won't be slaves. They'll work for each other and pay each other money.


Important caveat, this is all assuming pretty basic fantasy cliches. Of course many settings use more complex, nuanced takes on these cultures, and I don't mean to suggest that the concepts of Orcs, Kobolds, and Goblins are all barbaric, inherently criminal scum beyond the reach of civilization's elevating influence. That that's the baseline assumption is a wholly different set of signifiers to unpack.
Certainly. These ideas I've presented in this thread are obviously designed for a game where monstrous races have the capacity to become civilized, they just haven't yet and a clever & evil individual takes advantage of that fact. In a game where monsters are simply irredeemable monsters well, these ideas probably aren't very applicable.

Spore
2019-12-12, 01:37 AM
I feel the usual deal with an EVIL overlord is that he keeps you relatively fed and equipped AND let's you live. So you get paid in the following:

1) You get to live. Very gracious. (Maybe he or she keeps you safe from random roaming idiots trying to cull your tribe aka adventurers)

2) You get opportunity to murder and plunder, probably lucrative areas too.

3) Maybe in addition to plunder, you get to catch and keep a few human slaves. These are usually very valuable loot "items" in a raid.

4) Have I mentioned that the BBEG is a 15th level wizard that could nuke you at an instant. Compliances can however reap UNTOLD rewards. Maybe even plundering on other planes.

What are you gonna do? Knock on his Doom Fortress' door and complain about worker's rights?

5) I forgot: You can promote people to be able to bully other less subservient people. To quote Futurama: "What is an executive delivery boy? Oh that is a meaningless title for people with low self esteem. It makes them feel better."

e: That is probably not the right mindset for going into our monthly company meetings but oh well.

Martin Greywolf
2019-12-12, 04:02 AM
I'll just drive by shoot some history at you all.

The period I'll be discussing here is late medieval, as that is roughly where DnD settings are at, what with plate armor(no gunpowder, though...), and everything I say will have an exception somewhere.

The nature of mercenaries

There are no individual mercenaries - that is a good way to die. Mercenaries operated - pretty much all through history - as mercenary companies, be they Landsknecht or Condottiero. These companies have a command/social structure unique to them, a captain, rules they follow and loyalty to each other. All of this is, while based in laws and customs of the time, unique to the company. One company might have a rule against looting churches, other may have rules of conduct when visiting a brothel etc etc.

The mercenary captains (and some of their staff in larger comapnies) are often nobles, and are in charge of negotiating contracts, enforcing rules, paying fines for their men etc etc.

The nature of contracts

We get to it depends answer here, there are many kinds of contracts, long and short term. A city might hire a mercenary company to police its streets, a noble may hire them long term to supplement his forces available at all times. Then and again, they might be hired for one campaign, or part of a campaign.

Basically, anything the captain agrees to goes.

How a man shall be paid

Well, not necessarily in gold, at least not directly. While coin (usually silver, actually) was almost always there, it was never a full payment. Remember, a contract is negotiated by a captain of the company, he will want to have provisions for provisioning in there.

That means that some stipulations about food, water and equipment are most likely in there - in many forms. It may be a set price for which the local farmers must sell things to the company, paid from the company treasury. There may be discounts, or a contract may stipulate that the company is entitled to a portion of taxes collected - often, a company may be hired to collect taxes for a cut of them. These taxes will have some coin (yes, even from farmers), but a lot of food, cattle and goods - these can be sold or used.

Same applies to weapons and, what is rarely thought about, reinforcements. A company may or may not have a right to take on new people - while they have the right a priori in case of freemen, serfs and slaves require permission from their lord/owner to join. This permission can be given in the contract ahead of time for a given number of men.

Last but not least - not least by a long shot - is loot. Even regular soldiers were underpaid in medieval times during campaigns, with the understanding that they will be able to take loot, whether more traditional form, or by capturing rich prisoners and ransoming them (though onyl a noble can ransom a noble). This was a substantial increase in income on a successful campaign, especially since an army has toi send smaller detachments to secure food and water - who will stop you if you also loot some coin from the farmers?

Of course, a amercenary comapny may well have stipulations on what you are supposed to do with a loot, in the same way pirate ships did. Then and again, it may not, it depends on the captain.

Tanarii
2019-12-12, 01:16 PM
Are you assuming soldier prices include arms, armor, and room and board, with the wage being on top of that?

If so, humanoid mercs would have no particular reason to accept them in lieu of a wage. Unless they have different going rates for the same service.

If so, you could offer those things regardless of race in lieu of a wage.

Grim Portent
2019-12-12, 02:28 PM
Are you assuming soldier prices include arms, armor, and room and board, with the wage being on top of that?

If so, humanoid mercs would have no particular reason to accept them in lieu of a wage. Unless they have different going rates for the same service.

If so, you could offer those things regardless of race in lieu of a wage.

My assumptions for human mercs were that they brought their own armour and weapons, probably the default in whatever statblock they use, same for monstrous races but they obviously tend to bring pretty poor gear if any. Monstrous here mostly meaning goblins, bugbears, worgs and ogres, and human referring to the gamut of normal PC races.

Any specific gear such as halberds or better armour I was assuming would be paid out of company* (my) pocket.

Room, board, some luxury items and so on were assumed to be provided by me on top of wages for my calculations. Specifically tents, bedrolls, blankets, clothes 2 (sets per merc), cooking supplies, rations, water, ale, iron spikes (for the tents), mess kits, tankards, spare arrows, quivers, waterskins and backpacks.

On top of this I was planning around paying for various supplies like buckets, block and tackle, hammers, sledgehammers, chains, ropes, lanterns, lamp oil and so forth that would be involved in setting up camp and various other activities. Also the barrels, sacks, chests and so on things need to be stored in, as well as vehicles and draft animals.

It has occurred to me that depending on the model of mercenary/military group the soldiers could have their wages docked to pay off their gear, with it being theirs to walk away with after a certain term of service, or that consumable supplies like food, ale and oil could be docked from their pay as well.




The particular thing that lead me to thinking about food/lifestyle as wages was that it would actually be very cheap to provide fresh meat and bread and carry ale around everywhere, which is a substantial step up in quality of life for a lot of races as presented. Chickens cost next to nothing and provide a good ratio of meat to inedibles, goats are alright for the same purpose, flour isn't hard to carry and ale isn't meaningfully heavier than water. Then the various spices listed as trade goods are also rather cheap for how much you actually use when cooking. The math is awkward here because D&D doesn't have an average chicken to work out how much meat you get from one, or how often they lay eggs and so on, but work with what you have and all that. Feeding a goblin what is essentially a meal fit for a (poor) king costs about the same as feeding them rations and water, at least before you factor in the extra time and transport costs.


*I originally started working it out as a mental exercise because I actually want to do all the fiddly accounting my group just hand waves, then got the idea of a PC who is himself a mercenary captain responsible for providing employment and basic necessities for his company which in turn led to me being a lot more thorough and putting in more thought than I had originally intended, and then I started trying to apply the same thought process to what is basically a goblin tribe.

Quizatzhaderac
2019-12-12, 03:11 PM
Long term retirement plans are probably not something many would expect or demand, I doubt a worg or an ogre spares much thought to old age. Would be hard to provide for them without going full dark lord and establishing a whole army to carve out a monster kingdom.There's retirement and then there's retirement from active military life. By comparison a modern person might join the military to pay for college of develop a trade skill (like being an experienced pilot). Historically many people fought for a reward of land. In American military careers are typically much less than the person's working life, and I'd imagine if anything it would be less in a less civilized setting.

If taking a high mortality and high effort occupation for room and board seems like a good idea for an able bodied ogre, then the ogre population probably isn't able to support children, and there logically shouldn't continue to be an ogre population in the long term.

The ogres that adventures are always needing to kill are logically the especially troublesome ones, similar to human bandits not being typical humans. D&D humanoids are intelligent social creatures and so would logically be able to achieve at least a low bar of getting along with people and working towards goals. Make them jerks if you want, but start of thinking of them are jerk-people if you want them to make sense.

Circling back to what specifically to give them. Land, durable goods (tools and such), food enough for families and/or the tribe of the soldiers (sure they're jerks, but all not dead beat dads), livestock. If you want to be evil: slaves and looting. If you want to be gross: take a page from general Hooker's playbook.

Beleriphon
2019-12-17, 03:03 PM
Hobgoblins are an altogether different story. They're basically ruthless mercenaries: the race. As such they'll probably take anything that has some form of value to them as payment. The only difficulty is determining exactly how much value various things have to them. Supply and demand and all that.

They also present the issue that generally they're depicted as a particularly brutal meritocracy. Plus hobgoblins aren't generally stupid, and I'd be worried as the hiring party that the hobgoblin legion I just hired might be trying to supplant me.

redwizard007
2019-12-19, 10:11 AM
They also present the issue that generally they're depicted as a particularly brutal meritocracy. Plus hobgoblins aren't generally stupid, and I'd be worried as the hiring party that the hobgoblin legion I just hired might be trying to supplant me.

Villainy 101, day 1. Never put yourself at the mercy of your minions.

If you hired a hobgoblin band, or orc, or gnoll, etc then you either need another force to balance them out, or enough personal power that they would never consider standing against you. It's why displays of power and brutality are important tools of evil leaders.

There may also be cultural aspects you could exploit, or alliances you could lean on for some security, but sheer terror is your best defense.

VonKaiserstein
2019-12-19, 11:09 AM
This thread has been a phenomenal read! I think your command structure is going to be really important for any large scale hiring of mercenaries, but it can be tailored to fit. Don't sweat the small stuff- focus on the lieutenants you put in charge of the minor groups. Did you hire a kobold tribe for close defense and traps? Great! Now get yourself a dragonborn lieutenant who they will worship, and put them in charge. Make it very clear that if the kobolds aren't ready and doing what you desire, then they are paying the price. Likewise, reward them when they exceed your expectations.

Ogres suck at being civilized, great. Go get yourself a giant, and put them in charge of the ogres. Keep the number of individual lieutenants small, and be sure you can take out any 3 of them if you have to. Under no circumstances hire creatures stronger than you. Ideally, they'll be repulsive to each other, or vying to prove they're the best.

There's a rather good anime based around this idea called 'Overlord' on hulu. Excellent stuff if you're trying to make a plausible, semistable evil empire from evil beings.

Mr Blobby
2020-01-01, 01:52 AM
Bit late to the game, but there's one option not really mentioned yet; the foreign 'volunteer'.

The [monster] tribe of X has agreed to 'submit' to a nearby ruling [civilised] group. It's simple; Y amount of [monsters] will be offered as mercenaries per year, and they will behave otherwise the [civilised] will march up and destroy them all for 'breaking the agreement'. The [monsters] have learned from experience that the [civilised] ain't bluffing, and in fact the [monster] elders have come to realise that it's actually not that bad a deal [safety valve etc]. If the 'agreement' is a long-standing one, it might even be part of their society; that a teenage [monster] goes off 'outside', and after a few seasons some of them return - bigger, stronger and with some nifty 'outside' things which immediately jumps them up the [monster] pecking order.


...Last but not least - not least by a long shot - is loot. Even regular soldiers were underpaid in medieval times during campaigns, with the understanding that they will be able to take loot, whether more traditional form, or by capturing rich prisoners and ransoming them (though onyl a noble can ransom a noble). This was a substantial increase in income on a successful campaign, especially since an army has to send smaller detachments to secure food and water - who will stop you if you also loot some coin from the farmers?...

Which is why I have my PC in a Mage the Ascension game who always search corpses for wallets, gathers up the weapons and steals any car going. After all, not only do they not get paid they have to source their own kit...