Help me with a spiked chain fighter (3.5)

[Mellforce]

My girl is playing with us finally and looking for easy yet effective builds she liked the idea of a fighter with the spiked chain to control the enemies with tripping.
That's also a role we could need in the group, we have damage dealers, an healer, a buffer (me) but no crowd control.

She joins at lvl 10 and with 22k gold. Human. She can count on my huge Inspire Courage buff as I did my build around that and I was considering an enlarge person wand to use on her.
My idea was of a straight 10 lvls warrior to get a lot of feats for the whirlwind attack which would be nice tripping everyone around, improved trip, and?
I was thinking of an easy build like that because there's not too much to think about for a new player but it's still effective.... but if you have suggestions for PrC or anything you are very welcome, just not complicated things like those around the Martial Studies...

About the gear, +4 str belt is a must... then? Should we look for some particular enchantment on the spiked chain?

[Kayblis]

With that little money, you'll get more mileage out of a +2 STR item and a Living(2k) Spiked Chain, that gives +2 to Trip attempts. Also +2 to CON, small bonuses to saves and AC, all for the total cost of the +4 STR item. You should get a way to get Fly at least a couple rounds a day, because it's pretty easy for flying enemies to totally ignore her. Bonus, if you trip a flying foe that needs wings to fly, he falls to the ground and takes falling damage.

For Feats, look into Knockdown. It's from Sword and Fist, every time you hit an enemy for over 10 damage, you get a free trip attempt against him. That includes AoOs and such, so you can keep dealing damage and trip whenever you do so. Speaking of AoOs, you'll need Combat Reflexes, and remember a Large fighter with a Spiked Chain threatens 20ft around him.

For classes, there's the Exotic Weapon Master that fits well into a trip build. It's a 3-level PrC that has the prereqs fulfilled by your build, and every level you get a new trick with your weapon. These include +2 to all Trip attempts with an exotic tripping weapon and getting an extra attack with the exotic weapon each round, but taking a -2 to all attacks, kinda like a Monk's Flurry. All abilities are simple and straight-forward, so building it is easy. I do recommend a straight Fighter before that PrC for ease of use.

[Biggus]

Some gear from the Magic Item Compendium which can help:

Sweeping weapon special ability (p.44): +2 to Strength check to trip. Cost: +1 enhancement

Armbands of Might (p.72): +2 to Strength checks. Cost: 4,100GP

Helm of Battle (p.111): +2 to attack roll or Strength check to trip 3/day as a swift action. Cost: 2,000GP.

How come she only gets 22,000GP btw?

[Mellforce]

Thank you, the +2 trip weapon enchantment is awesome. I'm confused about the knock down feat; she can already attempt to trip attacking with the spiked chain, what more does this feat bring? What am I missing?
You are right about flying... I have the phantom steed spell, I could summon one for her... It can fly later on!
Also exotic master PrC seems great here, will definitely take that.
She gets 22k because thats the same we got ourselves so far

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, use a large size or powerful build race, especially if the level adjustment can be bought off (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). A Goliath in Races of Stone has powerful build and decent stat bonuses for a +1 LA, if that was bought off you'll only be down 3,000 xp (which you would have made up in the levels gained since then). So at worst the character starts at level 9 but very close to hitting 10 with no level adjustment, but ideally they'll still be level 10. It shouldn't affect starting wealth because they still would have been 10th level/ECL 10 had they not bought off the level adjustment.

Use the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature in Dungeonscape at the 2nd and 6th Fighter levels. Also use the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels in that downloadable web enhancement, say the character has reformed their ways and/or just reflavor it. Make your Cha at least 15, take the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel, and wear armor with the Fearsome property also in Drow of the Underdark (it's a more recent version than the one in MIC). Always keep max ranks in Intimidate, and remember that powerful build makes you count as large size.

At 10th level you'll have three feats from levels, and thee or four Fighter bonus feats, plus Skill Focus: Intimidate from Zhentarim Soldier. You'll need EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock Back (RoS), and Imperious Command. If you can take two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats starting out, you can get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, which with the Fighter 10 bonus feat gives you just enough feats to also begin play with Knock-Down (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

DMG Table 5-1 Character Wealth By Level on page 135 says a 10th level character should have 49,000 gp worth of gear. On a 22k budget, I'd go with the following:

Living Chain (MIC), a +1 Spiked Chain that's priced 2,000 gp above what a +1 spiked chain would normally cost. It stands to reason that additional magic weapon properties could be added to that.
Sweeping (MIC) on the above Living Chain, it costs a +1 equivalent, bringing the Living Chain to a +2 equivalent weapon (+1 is 2,000 gp, +2 is 8,000 gp, a difference of 6,000 gp, so it costs 6,000 gp to add this to the Living Chain).
+1 Fearsome Mithral Breastplate, as discussed Fearsome is from Drow of the Underdark, it costs 5,000 gp, +1 armor is 1,000 gp, mithral breastplate is 4,200 gp, total 10,200 gp.
So far you've spent 20,525 gp, only 1,475 left. Get a Healing Belt for 750 gp and you have 725 gp for mundane equipment, a masterwork ranged weapon, and spending cash. A character at this level really should have more gold to spend on starting equipment, especially a character whose only magic is in their gear.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm confused about the knock down feat; she can already attempt to trip attacking with the spiked chain, what more does this feat bring? What am I missing?

You can't normally both attempt to do damage and trip with the same attack. The spiked chain does allow you to attempt to trip with it, which is a thing most other weapons can't, but knockdown lets you attempt a normal attack and deal damage and, if that damage exceeds 10 points, then you get to make an immediate trip attempt for free. The feat does not require the weapon to specifically say you can trip with it either.

Simpler:

spiked chain and no feat = damage or trip
knockdown with sword = damge and trip
knockdown and sp chain = damage and/ or trip

Since it doesn't say different, succeeding at the trip with knockdown will allow you to immediately make another attack at the same bonus via improved trip.

[MultitudeMan]

I'd like to recommend the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) build that Saph did. It's effective crowd-control, but has high skills for out-of-combat effectiveness too, and can be expanded upon if you're not just in Core. It gets Dimension Door at level 11 too :) .

[Mellforce]

Awesome, I got it, thanks a lot to all.

[Mystral]

My girl is playing with us finally and looking for easy yet effective builds she liked the idea of a fighter with the spiked chain to control the enemies with tripping.
That's also a role we could need in the group, we have damage dealers, an healer, a buffer (me) but no crowd control.

She joins at lvl 10 and with 22k gold. Human. She can count on my huge Inspire Courage buff as I did my build around that and I was considering an enlarge person wand to use on her.
My idea was of a straight 10 lvls warrior to get a lot of feats for the whirlwind attack which would be nice tripping everyone around, improved trip, and?
I was thinking of an easy build like that because there's not too much to think about for a new player but it's still effective.... but if you have suggestions for PrC or anything you are very welcome, just not complicated things like those around the Martial Studies...

About the gear, +4 str belt is a must... then? Should we look for some particular enchantment on the spiked chain?

I'd suggest getting something to increase the size. Also, maybe have him play a cleric instead of a fighter and support himself with his spells. If he does that, I'd suggest a spell storing chain with either blindness or inflict serious wounds, both of which he can recast.

[Melcar]

You should know, that the tripper build is one of the most powerful melee builds available. A single level 10 tripper can easily take a few level 20 sword and board fighters... just saying! So be careful.

Passive tripping Feats/ Items/ Abilities:
Strength: +X
Jotunbrud (PGtF) +4
Powerful Build: +4
Improved Trip: (PHB) +4
Wolf Beserker (UNA) +4
Initiate of Kord (DR #342) +4
Specific Weapon: (Living Chain): (Untyped) (MiC) +2
Weapon Enchant: (Sweeping): (Competence) (MiC) +2
Weapon Enchant: (Grasping): (A&EG) +2
Exotic Weapon Master: (Class feature) (CW) +2
Armbands of Might: (Untyped) (MiC) +2
Tenticle Hide (Armor) (UND) +2
Musclebound (Trait) UA +1
Pale Green Prism (Ioun stone) DMG +1
Specialist Fighter (class feature) DM #310 +2
Marshal (cha bonus) (class feature) CC +Y
Total +36+X+Y

X times per day use:
Third Eye Surge MiC (Insight) (+2/+3/+4 – 3/day)
Torc of the Titans MiC (Morale) (+5 – 3/day)
Brute Gauntlets MiC (Morale) (+2/+3/+4 – 3/day)
Belt of the Champion MiC (Competence) +5
Helm of Battle MiC (Untyped) (+2 – 3/day)


As you can see... You easily reach unbeatable high trip rolls, ergo winning any melee fight! Get the feats from Dragon Magazine where you get multiple AoO from a single provocation and your golden! Or add stuff like Robilar's Gambit...

[Demidos]

The previous poster mentioned the Jotunbrud feat, but I just want to emphasize it -- since it's quite good and can only be taken at 1st level, it's definitely something to strongly consider.

Another thing I didn't see anyone mention (I might be blind) is the knockback feat, meaning you can bullrush AND trip if are large size (Jotunbrud feat or goliath race). Useful to keep enemies out of your face and goes well with Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim

Edit: Just realized Furiou mentioned it, ah well. In that case, just be sure to use whatever options are correct in power level for your table, since a build like this is fairly strong and you wouldn't want to overpower the rest of the table. Just make sure you run a few basic mock combats to make sure she isn't crushing everything/much weaker than everyone else.

[Biggus]

You should know, that the tripper build is one of the most powerful melee builds available. A single level 10 tripper can easily take a few level 20 sword and board fighters... just saying! So be careful.
[...]As you can see... You easily reach unbeatable high trip rolls, ergo winning any melee fight!

Being prone only inflicts -4 attack and -4 AC, what's to stop the level 20 Fighter just remaining prone and killing the tripper in about 2 rounds?

[Troacctid]

You can get enlarge person + permanency as a spellcasting service for surprisingly cheap if you want to be big all the time. Alternatively, the Attune Gem feat would let you craft gems of enlarge person that can be activated as a free action (!) for only 75 gp and 2 xp each, but if anyone other than the creator touches them, they automatically go off immediately, so you do need to craft them yourself if you want control over when to activate them.


Since it doesn't say different, succeeding at the trip with knockdown will allow you to immediately make another attack at the same bonus via improved trip.
I believe it was errata'd to specifically not work that way with Improved Trip.

[Mystral]

You can get enlarge person + permanency as a spellcasting service for surprisingly cheap if you want to be big all the time. Alternatively, the Attune Gem feat would let you craft gems of enlarge person that can be activated as a free action (!) for only 75 gp and 2 xp each, but if anyone other than the creator touches them, they automatically go off immediately, so you do need to craft them yourself if you want control over when to activate them.


I believe it was errata'd to specifically not work that way with Improved Trip.

Makes me wonder.. if you get permanently enlarged from medium to large, does any medium sized equipment you pick up get enlarged too or only the equipment you had on you when that spell was cast on you? Also, being permanently enlarged brings some a slew of other roleplaying problems, like finding a fitting bed or having to always stoop indoors. And that's not even bringing in problems from fighting with a spiked chain in cramped quarters, which a gm might just decide to be impossible because the chain keeps hitting the walls or ceiling.

[Melcar]

Being prone only inflicts -4 attack and -4 AC, what's to stop the level 20 Fighter just remaining prone and killing the tripper in about 2 rounds?

The tripper taking a 5ft step. Crawling provokes a AoO, get standstill, that fool ain't getting any closer!

[Mellforce]

About the Jotunbrud feat... from my reading I get that it works only for medium sized subjects, so if she gets enlarged by a spell this feat doesn't do anything, not making her count as huge or anything.
So considering that I'm the team's support, singing, casting utility spells and covering myself, I can just use a Wand of enlarge people and she saves a feat.

Funny how the fighter is a low tier class but with spiked chain build goes up... how many tiers you think it gains?

[Troacctid]

If built and played well, you can generally boost your fighter about half a tier, from a low 4 to a high 4.

[Biggus]

The tripper taking a 5ft step. Crawling provokes a AoO, get standstill, that fool ain't getting any closer!

And if he has a bow or reach weapon?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Makes me wonder.. if you get permanently enlarged from medium to large, does any medium sized equipment you pick up get enlarged too or only the equipment you had on you when that spell was cast on you? Also, being permanently enlarged brings some a slew of other roleplaying problems, like finding a fitting bed or having to always stoop indoors. And that's not even bringing in problems from fighting with a spiked chain in cramped quarters, which a gm might just decide to be impossible because the chain keeps hitting the walls or ceiling.

Unfortunately, no. Equipment that leaves your grasp reverts to its normal size and there's nothing in the text of the spell that says the reverse is true. You could ask your GM and hope he's generous but there's no RAW support for the magic extending to equipment picked up later and the example set by invisibility would seem to contradict the idea.

As for the RP concern, there are already quite a number of large, civilized races. It wouldn't be at all odd if there's -some- accomodation for it in larger more racially diverse settlements.


Being prone only inflicts -4 attack and -4 AC, what's to stop the level 20 Fighter just remaining prone and killing the tripper in about 2 rounds?

Proper trippers use reach weapons and the sword and board type fighters very nearly can't (no one-handed reach weapon leaps to mind but I won't say it's definitely not a thing.)

[Demidos]

About the Jotunbrud feat... from my reading I get that it works only for medium sized subjects, so if she gets enlarged by a spell this feat doesn't do anything, not making her count as huge or anything.
So considering that I'm the team's support, singing, casting utility spells and covering myself, I can just use a Wand of enlarge people and she saves a feat.

Funny how the fighter is a low tier class but with spiked chain build goes up... how many tiers you think it gains?

Your reading is correct, it does not stack with the wand of enlarge. It would save you a turn in every combat though, so it is quite good. If you prefer to use the wand for your table that's also totally fine.

Fighter goes from mid Tier 5 (mediocre combat, nothing else good) to very high Tier 4 (Deals lots of damage, can intimidate, and locks down an area around it, can't do much else) with the addition of Zhentarim Fighter, Dungeon Crasher, jotunbrud, possibly shock trooper and a Spiked Chain. Each


Also, if the fighter has decent Dex, don't forget Combat Reflexes for more attacks of opportunity.

[Melcar]

And if he has a bow or reach weapon?

Then he's no longer a "Sword and Board" fighter...

[Ivanhoe]

I'd like to recommend the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) build that Saph did. It's effective crowd-control, but has high skills for out-of-combat effectiveness too, and can be expanded upon if you're not just in Core. It gets Dimension Door at level 11 too :) .

I just this week did a variant of the horizon tripper, the The Shadow Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604584-(3-5-core)-The-Shadow-Tripper) which I believe in a core environment is even better - definitely it has a different focus with more stealth than the horizon tripper (in case the OP is looking for such a direction) and it is also fairly simple and effective.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Jotunbrud (PGtF) +4
Powerful Build: +4


Important thing to note about Jotunbrud is that it doesn't stack with actual size increases. Of course, that can probably just be chalked up to poorly written RAW and safely ignored.

Goliaths don't qualify for Jotunbrud, but if you're using flaws you can get both it and Powerful Build by being a Half Giant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) and taking Human Heritage and Jotunbrud as your 1st level feats. (Side Note: I could have sworn there was a half-giant template that could be applied to a human so you wouldn't need Human Heritage or flaws, but I can't seem to find it).


I believe it was errata'd to specifically not work that way with Improved Trip.

There's some debate on that. There was an errata for the feat released for Sword & Fist, the book it first appeared in... but then the feat was re-released in Deities and Demigods in its original form. It's this unerrata'd version of the feat that was included in the SRD. So while I can definitely see the argument that it was nerfed with errata, it's my opinion that said errata is no longer cannon and the feat does let you make an extra attack if you pull off the trip.

[Biggus]

Then he's no longer a "Sword and Board" fighter...

What? Have you ever seen a high-level martial character who doesn't have at least a couple of back-up weapons? I haven't.

If you meant "a highly-optimized 10th-level tripper can beat several 20th-level sword and board fighters, if the sword and board fighters were built by an idiot" well I guess you're right. But that's not what you said.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What? Have you ever seen a high-level martial character who doesn't have at least a couple of back-up weapons? I haven't.

If you meant "a highly-optimized 10th-level tripper can beat several 20th-level sword and board fighters, if the sword and board fighters were built by an idiot" well I guess you're right. But that's not what you said.

While keeping a backup weapon sounds good in theory, by level 20 that weapon will necessarily be substantially less potent than your primary weapon. A S&B type is also likely a low dex, heavy armor type for whom a bow that's way less powerful than their primary weapon is most likely a waste of time since he's near certain to have flight anyway. Nevermind the move action to discard your shield before you can even use a two-handed weapon.

Don't get me wrong, his L10 tripper vs even a single L20 S&B fighter is an absurd exaggeration but it's not because the latter can just switch to a weapon with longer reach.

[OrbanSirgen]

Proper trippers use reach weapons and the sword and board type fighters very nearly can't (no one-handed reach weapon leaps to mind but I won't say it's definitely not a thing.)

Well, there are whips... They aren't very useful, but they're there...


As for the fighter in question, she could take a level of Swordsage and the Shadow Blade feat to add her Dex mod to damage with spiked chain while in a Shadow Hand stance... Free Weapon Focus doesn't hurt either...

[Melcar]

What? Have you ever seen a high-level martial character who doesn't have at least a couple of back-up weapons? I haven't.

If you meant "a highly-optimized 10th-level tripper can beat several 20th-level sword and board fighters, if the sword and board fighters were built by an idiot" well I guess you're right. But that's not what you said.

What I specifically mean that a standard melee type fighter, with 5ft reach, who does not have some weird shenanigans. Like that of a Longsword and shield wielding fighter at level 20. My point was simply that a well build tripper takes a lot higher CR melee build without reach. That does not necessarily mean its build like an idiot, but just means that in my opinion the tripper build is one of the strongest if not the strongest of all melee builds in the game (the game being D&D 3.5).

I'm not sure what you read from my post, I thought that was exactly what I said. Not an idiotic build but sword and board is just that. Shield and longsword. You could argue, as you do, that then they suck and that's fine, sword and board is generally a weak melee build, but to iterate, I'm not wrong tho :smalltongue:

[FauxKnee]

Proper trippers use reach weapons and the sword and board type fighters very nearly can't (no one-handed reach weapon leaps to mind but I won't say it's definitely not a thing.)


Well, there are whips... They aren't very useful, but they're there...

AFB so I can't look it up, but I believe there's a "spin sword" in Secrets of Sarlona that's a one-handed reach weapon. IIRC it was a belt made of a bunch of steel cables with sharp ends.

[YellowJohn]

DMG Table 5-1 Character Wealth By Level on page 135 says a 10th level character should have 49,000 gp worth of gear. On a 22k budget, I'd go with the following:

Living Chain (MIC), a +1 Spiked Chain that's priced 2,000 gp above what a +1 spiked chain would normally cost. It stands to reason that additional magic weapon properties could be added to that.
Sweeping (MIC) on the above Living Chain, it costs a +1 equivalent, bringing the Living Chain to a +2 equivalent weapon (+1 is 2,000 gp, +2 is 8,000 gp, a difference of 6,000 gp, so it costs 6,000 gp to add this to the Living Chain).
+1 Fearsome Mithral Breastplate, as discussed Fearsome is from Drow of the Underdark, it costs 5,000 gp, +1 armor is 1,000 gp, mithral breastplate is 4,200 gp, total 10,200 gp.
So far you've spent 20,525 gp, only 1,475 left. Get a Healing Belt for 750 gp and you have 725 gp for mundane equipment, a masterwork ranged weapon, and spending cash. A character at this level really should have more gold to spend on starting equipment, especially a character whose only magic is in their gear.

Definitely agree that your DM is being a little stingy with the budget.

To throw my 2c in, I would drop the Sweeping property (for now), worship Kord, then pick up a Belt of the Champion (MIC 73, 4500gp) and try to find space for the True Believer feat. +2 Enhancement to Strength and a +5 Competence bonus on Strength Checks (which includes Trip & Bull Rush). Instructions for improving Relics can be found on MIC p.222, so it's not like you're stuck with +2 Strength.
If you can't spare the feat, Armbands of Might (MIC 72) give a +2 Untyped bonus to all Strength & Strength Skill Checks for 4100, so better than Sweeping :smallsmile: