Dragonrider - Strong as possible

[Dlabuga]

Good morning people,
I would like help me set up a dragonrider as strong as possible.

I want to use a 2-handed sword, heavy armor, good endurance, means of getting a dragon, preferably combining magic with sword fighting.

ECL 22, dices: 18/16/16/12/10/8

I just can't use material 3.0 and DM

Thanks all

[YellowJohn]

Assuming you're starting the campeign at ECL22 w. 10 levels of Dragonrider, you & your Dragon friend have been adventuring together for at least 10 levels now. You don't *need* a game-mechanics reason to be together, just a good story. Think of a story reason why the dragon keeps this squishy [not a dragon] around and you're set. What foe did you first team up against? Or does the dragon just like your poetry? Are you perhaps a distant descendant & that's where your magic comes from?

Combining magic with sword fighting on this build will be tough, since you're only allowed to drop two points of BAB if you want all 10 levels of Dragonrider. I would be tempted to go Duskblade (PHB2), though you only need 4 levels of Duskblade for Armoured Mage - Medium (Mithril Full-Plate is Medium Armour) and can then fill up with prestige classes. My first thought is Abjurant Champion (CAr) for their Martial Arcanist capstone and no loss of BAB, though without Shield or Luminous Armour on your spell list a lot of the class is wasted on you (though you do at least get Deflection), and you're only one level off full-attack channels if you go full Duskblade. If you go down the Duskblade path, talk to your DM about using Arcane Chanelling on a charge. Also read the Duskblade handbook here.
http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html?m=1

How set are you on a sword? A lance is a two-handed weapon & nothing says you *have* to use it one-handed while mounted. Since Dragonrider gives bonuses while mounted, I assume you'll be on Dragonback most of the time. There's a feat in the Dragonlance Campaign setting that lets you use your month's strength when charging with a lance at the teeny tiny drawback that you might accidentally break it (get a lance made of Aurorum, BoED). Either way, you want to ride your dragon so the mount handbook is worth a look here
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=25.0

[Seerow]

I don't think he was looking at the dragonrider prestige class specifically because one of the requirements is means to get a dragon. Sounds more like he's looking for ways to get a Gish built with a dragon mount built in.


My first thought is a Cleric/Prestige Paladin using the Draconomicon Table to get a young dragon as your special mount. Though it really depends on what you want to focus on. If you want to focus on the dragon, a super mount build is going to be much better. If you want to focus on gishing it up and just having a pet dragon, you can do the arcane gish route and take leadership, as a 22nd level character you can get most young/juvenile dragons as a cohort.

Also if you're into shenanigans, I remember seeing recently somebody in the most recent iron chef using Bestow Curse to increase age categories on a creature. In theory you could recruit a young dragon, and use Bestow Curse to buff it two age categories when you need it.

[aerilon]

I was in a 3.X game that used both 3.5, splat, and PF material a few years back where someone played a class from Dreamscarred Press that was a gishy Dragonrider. Light armor, full bab, sorc/wiz spells (up to 4th level spells), and a "true dragon" companion that advanced appropriately in power with the Dragonrider's level. Might want to look at that and see if it could be adapted for your game? Seems like it's got a lot of what you want, except for heavy armor.

[Dlabuga]

I don't think he was looking at the dragonrider prestige class specifically because one of the requirements is means to get a dragon. Sounds more like he's looking for ways to get a Gish built with a dragon mount built in.


My first thought is a Cleric/Prestige Paladin using the Draconomicon Table to get a young dragon as your special mount. Though it really depends on what you want to focus on. If you want to focus on the dragon, a super mount build is going to be much better. If you want to focus on gishing it up and just having a pet dragon, you can do the arcane gish route and take leadership, as a 22nd level character you can get most young/juvenile dragons as a cohort.

Also if you're into shenanigans, I remember seeing recently somebody in the most recent iron chef using Bestow Curse to increase age categories on a creature. In theory you could recruit a young dragon, and use Bestow Curse to buff it two age categories when you need it.

Yes, super mount build plz.

[Dlabuga]

I don't think he was looking at the dragonrider prestige class specifically because one of the requirements is means to get a dragon. Sounds more like he's looking for ways to get a Gish built with a dragon mount built in.


My first thought is a Cleric/Prestige Paladin using the Draconomicon Table to get a young dragon as your special mount. Though it really depends on what you want to focus on. If you want to focus on the dragon, a super mount build is going to be much better. If you want to focus on gishing it up and just having a pet dragon, you can do the arcane gish route and take leadership, as a 22nd level character you can get most young/juvenile dragons as a cohort.

Also if you're into shenanigans, I remember seeing recently somebody in the most recent iron chef using Bestow Curse to increase age categories on a creature. In theory you could recruit a young dragon, and use Bestow Curse to buff it two age categories when you need it.


Assuming you're starting the campeign at ECL22 w. 10 levels of Dragonrider, you & your Dragon friend have been adventuring together for at least 10 levels now. You don't *need* a game-mechanics reason to be together, just a good story. Think of a story reason why the dragon keeps this squishy [not a dragon] around and you're set. What foe did you first team up against? Or does the dragon just like your poetry? Are you perhaps a distant descendant & that's where your magic comes from?

Combining magic with sword fighting on this build will be tough, since you're only allowed to drop two points of BAB if you want all 10 levels of Dragonrider. I would be tempted to go Duskblade (PHB2), though you only need 4 levels of Duskblade for Armoured Mage - Medium (Mithril Full-Plate is Medium Armour) and can then fill up with prestige classes. My first thought is Abjurant Champion (CAr) for their Martial Arcanist capstone and no loss of BAB, though without Shield or Luminous Armour on your spell list a lot of the class is wasted on you (though you do at least get Deflection), and you're only one level off full-attack channels if you go full Duskblade. If you go down the Duskblade path, talk to your DM about using Arcane Chanelling on a charge. Also read the Duskblade handbook here.
http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html?m=1

How set are you on a sword? A lance is a two-handed weapon & nothing says you *have* to use it one-handed while mounted. Since Dragonrider gives bonuses while mounted, I assume you'll be on Dragonback most of the time. There's a feat in the Dragonlance Campaign setting that lets you use your month's strength when charging with a lance at the teeny tiny drawback that you might accidentally break it (get a lance made of Aurorum, BoED). Either way, you want to ride your dragon so the mount handbook is worth a look here
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=25.0

I loved this Dragon Rider Prc (Dragonlance campaign)

But i think i want go focus more into tue dragon and just support him

[stack]

I was in a 3.X game that used both 3.5, splat, and PF material a few years back where someone played a class from Dreamscarred Press that was a gishy Dragonrider. Light armor, full bab, sorc/wiz spells (up to 4th level spells), and a "true dragon" companion that advanced appropriately in power with the Dragonrider's level. Might want to look at that and see if it could be adapted for your game? Seems like it's got a lot of what you want, except for heavy armor.

That third party dragonrider class wasn't DSP (Dreamscarred Press), it was by Rogue Genius games. Its on the PFSRD.

[Dlabuga]

Focusing in super power mount and with Mounted attack (From Dragon Rider - Dragonlance CS) ability i can do some extra damage.

Maybe duskblade with Abjurant Champion to boost my dragon.

[aerilon]

That third party dragonrider class wasn't DSP (Dreamscarred Press), it was by Rogue Genius games. Its on the PFSRD.

Ah, my bad. Was going off (apparently flawed) memory at the moment.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are a few ways to get a dragon.

(1) Zhentarim Skymage (PrC). No restrictions on what mount you can get, except that it must be able to fly and fit inside the HD limit (ignoring LA, unlike the next two options). The HD limit is based on your class level and Charisma. Despite the Charisma synergy, the class is easier to enter for wizards, but since you can potentially enter at a very high level, it's not a problem. You can expect around 30 Charisma before temporary boosts at ECL 22 (18 base +2 racial +5 level increases +5 inherent), so that dragon could have 16 HD. If you use Legacy Champion, it could have 24 HD. Most spellcaster-y of the options.
(2) Leadership/Dragon Cohort (feat). Doesn't get you a super powerful dragon, but you can easily get a Large dragon at ECL 22, which is big enough to ride, and Epic Leadership can increase that a bit.
(3) Dragon Rider (PrC). Works pretty much like Dragon Cohort, but adds eight bonus HD (without skills/feats, for some reason) over ten levels, so you potentially end up with a 14+8=22 HD young gold dragon (ECL 20) at level 17, and a 17+8=22 HD juvenile gold dragon (ECL 17+6 or 17+7?) is probably reasonable at ECL 22. Not a spellcaster.
(4) Special Mount + Animal Companion + Dragon Steed. Übermount builds pretty much always incorporate paladin somehow, and with a high enough effective paladin level (16+), you can attract a Large dragon. A standard build can get you an effective paladin and druid level of about 20, giving you 14 bonus HD on top of a young (14 HD) gold dragon, which is really nice. Takes a lot of Halfling Outrider levels, though, so you're definitely not a spellcaster.
(5) Play a dragon, and attract a humanoid cohort. You can shapechange or Wild Shape into a dragon, or simply choose a dragon as base race. Dragons tend to have horrible level adjustments and HD bloat, though, and as a result, most of them are underpowered as PCs. Ask your DM whether they'll waive the LA for any dragons over ECL 10. Without LA, (spellhoarding) steel loredrakes make pretty good gishes, though the Large ones do lose a fair bit of casting.

A one-level dip in the Dragonrider PrC (that's different from the Dragon Rider PrC, yes) can improve the maneuverability of any dragon you're riding by one step, as well. Stacks with things like a (greater) pectoral of maneuverability, so you can get even Poor fliers up to Perfect.

If you can, put the Wyrm of War archetype on your dragon.

Using a two-handed weapon, you'll likely want to go for something like a valorous lance with Spirited Charge (i.e. quadruple damage), which lets you make a single high-damage attack, hopefully alongside your dragon's Pounce-enhanced charge (Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) + Open Least Chakra (hands)). Leap Attack doesn't work for a rider, but Power Attack does. Shock Trooper is a maybe. The mounted combat rules are unclear--ask your DM.


Fun fact: There are listed level adjustments for dracolich cohorts.

[Maat Mons]

Edit: Slightly ninja'd, but not going to rework the post.

You want to be able to ride the dragon. And your mount usually needs to be one size category larger than you. So if you're going to be medium size, you'd typically need a medium dragon.

Looking Draconomicon, the leadership feat can get you large-size draons, but only of the red or gold varieties. Special mount also can get you large dragons, but only of the gold variety. Dragon Familiar, sadly, can only get you a medium-size dragon, and only of the red or gold variety.

But there are a couple of extra options, if you don't want to give up on Dragon Familiar, or if you want different varieties of dragon. One is pretty straightforward, you just play a small character. The next is something I don't have completely worked out. You magically increase the size of your dragon. Unfortunately, dragons aren't valid targets for Enlarge Person. But there's probably a spell or items somewhere that can handle it. The final one is only an option if your DM lets you pull material from Pathfinder. There's a feat that lets you ride something the same size as you are, though I forget the name.

[Heavenblade]

You can always take a paladin 5/beastmaster 1
With the following feats - devoted tracker, holy mount, theurgic bond

And then slap on the best divine prestige class you can find, preferrably with some BaB (If you can handle a little more paladin, taking 6 levels to get martial stance amd martual study+skill focus, and then going into RKV is aweosme, and maneuvers are pretty sick with mobile mounted combat)


There is a feat, an ACF, and an alternative rule that will let your awesome supermount become dragon/dragonish

And then you just ride you fearsome beast to battle, wacking everything with your sword and maneuvers.


(If you are a halfling - get rid of aura of courage with wayward warden, take the craven feat+assasin's stance for more damage)

[False God]

With ECL22 to work with, have you considered ditching the rider and just being the dragon? It would get you Juvenile Gold exactly (17HD+5LA and you'd be level 0), you'd have feats as a 17th(6) level character and stat modifiers of +18/+0/+8/+8/+8/+8 on top of what you got, that's plenty of room to build a two-handed combat monster (literally).

[stack]

With ECL22 to work with, have you considered ditching the rider and just being the dragon? It would get you Juvenile Gold exactly (17HD+5LA and you'd be level 0), you'd have feats as a 17th(6) level character and stat modifiers of +18/+0/+8/+8/+8/+8 on top of what you got, that's plenty of room to build a two-handed combat monster (literally).

Then take leadership for a cohort that can ride around on you!

[Dlabuga]

With ECL22 to work with, have you considered ditching the rider and just being the dragon? It would get you Juvenile Gold exactly (17HD+5LA and you'd be level 0), you'd have feats as a 17th(6) level character and stat modifiers of +18/+0/+8/+8/+8/+8 on top of what you got, that's plenty of room to build a two-handed combat monster (literally).

But what´s my level as Juvenile Gold Dragon? 17? i mean, for leadership purpose

lvl 17 + car modifier?

[Quertus]

I've just gotta suggest going straight Cleric, and making your own ghetto Zombie Dragon mount. Classic Cleric-zilla action, on hilariously bad (if very tough if optimized) undead mount.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a standard gish, take Craft Construct and make an Effigy of whatever dragon you want.

[False God]

Then take leadership for a cohort that can ride around on you!
This is an awesome idea!


But what´s my level as Juvenile Gold Dragon? 17? i mean, for leadership purpose

lvl 17 + car modifier?
Your ECL as a Juvenile Gold Dragon is 22. Leadership tracks your level, and since the feat requires DM approval anyway, you'd probably need to clarify with your DM if it will track your ECL of 22 or you actual number of class levels (zero).

[YellowJohn]

You can always take a paladin 5/beastmaster 1
With the following feats - devoted tracker, holy mount, theurgic bond

Unfortunately, Holy Mount and Theurgic Bond are Dragon Magazine Material, which I'm assuming are banned when the OP says 'No DM or 3.0' - otherwise this would be awesome.

Anyway, there is a way to get something similar, if your table can stomach the Unearthed Arcana cheese. However strong your table likes its cheese, you will need to sit down and have a friendly chat with your DM. Buy them lunch :smalltongue:
Here's the build:

Race: Dwarf (Moderate [Gold Dragon?] Bloodline)

Classes:
Fighter 1, Cleric 4, Bloodline 1 (UA 19-23), Prestige Paladin 2 (UA 70), Beastmaster 1 (CAd 26), Bloodline +1, Faith Scion 10 (UA 166), Epic Faith Scion 2

Feats: (Feats marked * are prerequisites)
1a) Skill Focus - Handle Animal*
1b) Mounted Combat (Fighter Bonus)
1c) Track* (Flaw: Slow; your speed is now 10'. Hope you never have to leave the saddle!)
1d) Power Attack* (Flaw: Inattentive; -4 Spot & Listen)
2) Weapon Focus - Warhammer* (War Domain Bonus)
3) Great Fortitude*
6) ???
9) Devoted Tracker (CAd 108)
12) Dragon Steed
15) Natural Bond (CAd 111)
18) ???
21) Epic Spellcasting???

This gets you 19 Class Levels for Paladin's Mount (PM), 21 Class Levels for Animal Companion (AC), and 17 Caster Levels of Cleric. Thanks to the Devoted Tracker feat your Paladin's Mount IS your AC and gets benefits for both. Bloodline Levels and Faith Scion progress both your PM and AC.
So that's you riding around on a Very Young Gold Dragon with +4 Hit Dice, +6 Natural Armour, +2 Strength, +10' Speed in all movement modes, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, uses your base saves if they're better, and with which you can share 9th Level Cleric Spells. Plus Animal Companion benefits.

How good these Animal Companion benefits are is dependent on DM Fiat and can range from 3rd Tier (+4 Hit Dice) if you start tracking AC bonuses from L16 when a V Young Gold becomes available, right up to First Tier Epic (+14 HD) depending on how your DM chooses to apply them to a superior creature. Buy your DM a nice lunch and hammer out exactly how good your mount is.
Once you've done that, chat about exactly how 'Ride By Attack' works because the rules are broken. As in 'Do Not Work' broken.
Then clarify how 'Trample' works for flying mounts that don't have hooves. Do you use a Claw? Your Primary Natural Attack? Can you Tail Slap?
You will also need to hammer out how Faith Scion works at Epic Levels. I would recommend 1 Feat/4 levels, extra Smite every 3 levels, extra Enhancement Bonus every three levels, extra Con bonus every Four levels. Your DM may disagree.

Once you've got the mechanics hammered out, you might want to look into getting your Faith Scion based off a different legendary item for a different race. I would probably spin the tale that my weapon was the lance of a paladin who fought for Truth, Honour and Justice, heading armies of the righteous against the hordes of darkness who beset them and becoming a Legendary Hero on the level of King Arthur, and a Demigod in their own right. As you may have noticed, you are a little feat-starved (Hence Human), and nothing beats a lance for mounted combat. Try to switch the 'Throwing/Returning 3/day' ability to 'Valorous Always'.

#################

If your DM can't stomach the cheese, your next best bet is either straight Prestige Paladin, or Straight Paladin.
Prestige Paladin gives a slightly stronger mount, but worse spells to share. Either way, you'll have to clarify how Mounted Combat & Trample work.


Good luck :smallbiggrin: