[SAGA] The Unstoppable Power of... Invisibility?

[Grey Guard]

So I've been running a game of Dawn of Defiance. The party is a little under-leveled (due to having a lot of party members), and they're almost level 10 by the point of Core of Corruption.

I've slowly been running into the problem with the Felucian Force Prodigy in the party. He's got Force Stealth, a Reflec Shadowskin upgrade on his armor, and the Cloak force power. Between all of these things, he routinely gets Stealth checks for sneaking in the 40-50 range, with Cloak granting Total Concealment and giving enemies a -10 penalty to Perception checks to notice him.

Nobody can notice him. He's a ghost. He also can't be detected via sensors, due to a White Current Adept talent he has. He can also keep his Cloak up as a Move Action because of a Force Technique. He often stays invisible in fights, and uses Enlighten, Inspire, and Harm's Way to buff and protect the party, combined with the Damage Reduction 10 talent and the Force Shield force power, he's very good at never taking damage as well, while protecting his friends.

I can't seem to find any way of being able to locate him, except with the Force, and we've kinda soft-banned the usage of the Force to ignore Concealment, since people were using that to basically see through doors and walls, and that didn't sit well with anyone at the table.

Does anyone know of anything that might find him? Some way of boosting Perception to the stratosphere? Otherwise, I think he just kinda wins at the stealth game. Which is kinda boring to challenge him.

[AvatarVecna]

There is a talent in the Sense tree called "Heightened Awareness" that lets you spend a Force Point to add your Cha mod to a single Perception check. This is one of the very few talents that can be taken multiple times, and the benefit is that taking it twice (or more) lets you add your Cha to that one Perception check twice (or more). I put together a dumb theoretical build abusing this talent, and while they were only a decent Force Wizard by virtue of just having scads of force powers, they could spend a Force Point to boost their Perception from like...+29 to +150 or something like that...and they had 5 free force points per encounter from Techniques. Doing all that much probably isn't necessary, but even with half as many talents and half as much Cha, you'd still be looking at like +60 or something.

...of course, really part of the problem here is a difference in expectations, regarding optimization. Taking a counter-option to extreme heights makes it a lot more adversarial than it needs to be, perhaps. Talking with your player about how it's making things a bit difficult on your end - designing encounters that are able to deal with him, but that don't wipe the rest of the party, might be a bit hard if he's put this much effort into his defenses.

[Awakeninfinity]

Yeah; the problem is that they had a +10 bonus for Stealth but no +10 for Perception. With Dex pretty much being King in the game; Stealth quickly outpaces it's counter.

I would take the player aside and ask them to drop the Shadowskin for another upgrade instead.

(You can use a sensor pack alongside an improved Helmet Package (Superior Tech feat; Scum and Villainy) for a net +10 bonus; and a scout can get a +5 circumstance bonus from the Surveillance Talent tree in Clone Wars Campaign Guide (the same bonus as the sensor pack; but doesn't require a standard action to use)

Remember that sniping gives a penalty to stealth checks as well.

[Grey Guard]

There is a talent in the Sense tree called "Heightened Awareness" that lets you spend a Force Point to add your Cha mod to a single Perception check. This is one of the very few talents that can be taken multiple times, and the benefit is that taking it twice (or more) lets you add your Cha to that one Perception check twice (or more). I put together a dumb theoretical build abusing this talent, and while they were only a decent Force Wizard by virtue of just having scads of force powers, they could spend a Force Point to boost their Perception from like...+29 to +150 or something like that...and they had 5 free force points per encounter from Techniques. Doing all that much probably isn't necessary, but even with half as many talents and half as much Cha, you'd still be looking at like +60 or something.

...of course, really part of the problem here is a difference in expectations, regarding optimization. Taking a counter-option to extreme heights makes it a lot more adversarial than it needs to be, perhaps. Talking with your player about how it's making things a bit difficult on your end - designing encounters that are able to deal with him, but that don't wipe the rest of the party, might be a bit hard if he's put this much effort into his defenses.

Well, THAT will help me find him. His force wizardry is the main issue, but really, I think that's more a fault of the system right now. Non-force users have precious little to defend themselves against the bloated UtF check that targets Will defenses, save for taking Unstoppable Force, Grand Army of the Republic Training, wearing heavy armor, and hoping they roll low.

But since that can be taken multiple times, I guess I'll have to build a foil for him, a Miraluka Inquisitor (because who better to find the invisible dude than the blind guy) who's taken Heightened Awareness a ton of times, and functions as a blood hound for people like the White Current Adepts and Jin-lo Rayce's Agents of Ossus; who are otherwise excellent at hiding from people finding them.


Yeah; the problem is that they had a +10 bonus for Stealth but no +10 for Perception. With Dex pretty much being King in the game; Stealth quickly outpaces it's counter.

I would take the player aside and ask them to drop the Shadowskin for another upgrade instead.

(You can use a sensor pack alongside an improved Helmet Package (Superior Tech feat; Scum and Villainy) for a net +10 bonus; and a scout can get a +5 circumstance bonus from the Surveillance Talent tree in Clone Wars Campaign Guide (the same bonus as the sensor pack; but doesn't require a standard action to use)

Remember that sniping gives a penalty to stealth checks as well.

Thanks, both of you, for your input. Really, the Reflec Shadowskin is way too good, but still getting numbers as high as he is, couples with the -10 to Perception from Total Concealment keeps him relatively good at staying hidden. I'm planning on banning that armor upgrade in the future. The player is reasonable, but tends towards optimizing his role, in this case the hidden protector of the party, as much as possible.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Well, THAT will help me find him. His force wizardry is the main issue, but really, I think that's more a fault of the system right now. Non-force users have precious little to defend themselves against the bloated UtF check that targets Will defenses, save for taking Unstoppable Force, Grand Army of the Republic Training, wearing heavy armor, and hoping they roll low.

Well, I can help a bit here. A house-rule we use is SAM, or Skill Attack Modifier. You can check it out here. (http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/the-senate-8/the-skill-attack-modifier-or-sam-for-short/)

The great thing is it affects all skills when they target a defense, and only when they target a defense. It doesn't solve the issue completely, but it certainly helps.

[Spore]

...of course, really part of the problem here is a difference in expectations, regarding optimization. Taking a counter-option to extreme heights makes it a lot more adversarial than it needs to be, perhaps.


But since that can be taken multiple times, I guess I'll have to build a foil for him, a Miraluka Inquisitor (because who better to find the invisible dude than the blind guy) who's taken Heightened Awareness a ton of times

Very late to the party but yea, countering a single character needs to be done sensibly. However there are people who specialize in finding other people in real life, be it detectives or inquisitors, if religiously charged. And with the Sith class explicitly being NAMED Inquisitor, I feel a detection based character is not that that bad.

[LibraryOgre]

Another option, that might require some homebrewing: A sensor-optimized droid. Something an investigator might have along.

[druid91]

Area attacks. Flamethrowers, Bombs, Landmines and the like.

[redwizard007]

Another option, that might require some homebrewing: A sensor-optimized droid. Something an investigator might have along.

It is also something a bountyhunter would utilize.

Remember, no counter is unrealistic if powerful enemies exist. They will study an encounter. Identify strengths and weaknesses and develop counters to them.

[MERC_1]

Well, there are ways to do make any roll. It's called Aid Another, but that is only +2 you may say. So to roll that high you need a team of low level non-heroics using aid another. It is really helpful if they can take 10 on Perception, so consider the Wary Sentries (team feat).You also need a leader/officer type character with at least 5 level in Noble and 3 x Coordinate (talent). He could have 5 x Coordinate with Noble 7/Officer 1.

Anyway as long as the low level spotters all use aid another by taking 10 on Perception, they will add a minimum of +5 each to the main spotter. Let's make them NH3 with WIS 14 and being trained in Perception and give them the feat Wary Sentries. Now they have Perception +10 and with take 10 that is 20. So even with a penalty of -10 they will be able to aid another.

They will be CL 1 each, but if you have 12 of those spotters (divided into smaller units), 11 of them could add +55 to the last one for a result of 75. With a Noble 5 they would together have a CL of 9 or less. Give them classical binoculars as they should be cheaper and also not suffer from being "sensors". Also, dress them all the same so that the PC can't spot the noble at first.

Optimise this group of spotters as you see fit, with equipment and the right numbers and CL. Add in any other units you need, but remenber that Aid Another is also effective when shooting... What they can see they can kill.