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CheddarChampion
2019-12-09, 12:48 PM
So not every table will have such an issue, but in my group if you pick a race/class combo that has no synergy you'll be noticably less powerful than your peers.
What sort of rule changes work well to reduce dependency on selecting a synergistic race?

Reduce Point Buy by 3 points, give 2 floating bonus points.
The floating bonus points affect the ability scores like racial modifiers but can only be assigned to an ability score that hasn't been boosted by 2 already through any combination of racial and floating bonuses.
For Hill Dwarf you can put 2 in Str, or 1 in Wis and 1 in Str, or 1 in Str and 1 in Dex, for examples, but never any points in Con.

malachi
2019-12-09, 01:23 PM
You could just decide to remove all stat bonuses from races, and instead give characters +2/+1 (or whatever the equivalent of point buy would be, and allow buying up to 17).
You'd still have synergies between races and classes (compare the benefits a half-orc gets from being a wizard, compared to a barbarian), but at least their stats would all line up with the expected math.

Teaguethebean
2019-12-09, 01:53 PM
A very simple fix is allow point buy up to 16 chicken dinnerchicken dinner (http://chicken-dinner.com/5e/5e-point-buy.html) allows you to mess around with the max. But don't allow people to get 18 out of character creation to make certain people don't feel a need for 18 out the gate.

malachi
2019-12-09, 02:09 PM
A very simple fix is allow point buy up to 16 chicken dinnerchicken dinner (http://chicken-dinner.com/5e/5e-point-buy.html) allows you to mess around with the max. But don't allow people to get 18 out of character creation to make certain people don't feel a need for 18 out the gate.

Looks like 35 points matches the standard array with +2 to the primary stat and +1 to the secondary. It also allows 14/14/14/14/14/8, which is slightly worse than the 14/14/14/14/14/11 that a standard human can get. It doesn't match up completely with the normal method, but at least it's in the right direction.

Teaguethebean
2019-12-09, 02:22 PM
Looks like 35 points matches the standard array with +2 to the primary stat and +1 to the secondary. It also allows 14/14/14/14/14/8, which is slightly worse than the 14/14/14/14/14/11 that a standard human can get. It doesn't match up completely with the normal method, but at least it's in the right direction.

Oh I'm not saying remove racial bonuses I am saying to allow people to buy the +3 they want. It removes the terror people have of having a +2 as their best stat.

MarkVIIIMarc
2019-12-09, 03:51 PM
So not every table will have such an issue, but in my group if you pick a race/class combo that has no synergy you'll be noticably less powerful than your peers.
What sort of rule changes work well to reduce dependency on selecting a synergistic race?

Reduce Point Buy by 3 points, give 2 floating bonus points.
The floating bonus points affect the ability scores like racial modifiers but can only be assigned to an ability score that hasn't been boosted by 2 already through any combination of racial and floating bonuses.
For Hill Dwarf you can put 2 in Str, or 1 in Wis and 1 in Str, or 1 in Str and 1 in Dex, for examples, but never any points in Con.

How much synergy are we talking about? A +2 CHA makes my Bard 5% better at A LOT of things and makes a Feat an easier choice once your ability of choice is maxed.

It isn't like that +2 Int a gnome would give me would go wasted though. Nor is that advantage on some saves.

Don't let 5% dictate your life!

Pex
2019-12-09, 06:17 PM
A very simple fix is allow point buy up to 16 chicken dinnerchicken dinner (http://chicken-dinner.com/5e/5e-point-buy.html) allows you to mess around with the max. But don't allow people to get 18 out of character creation to make certain people don't feel a need for 18 out the gate.

They don't need one.
There's nothing wrong with having one.
5E already allows it. You can even have a 20 if you're lucky.

MeeposFire
2019-12-10, 12:11 AM
The first thing to do is sit back, relax, realize that it is not actually that big of a deal, and learn to love the bomb.

In other words people often make way too big of a deal of a bonus to an ability score and the like. Now it is a benefit and it does help you but you will find people that think if you do not have an ability boost in your primary stat for your class then the world is ending.

Vessyra
2019-12-10, 02:34 AM
D&D 5e doesn't have much difference in optimisation, so missing out on a +2 bonus, or something else, isn't a big difference. I recently had a game where an experienced player went optimised paladin/sorc, and a new player went straight paladin. Not much difference between them. Same with races; 5e shorter power range than previous editions means that both optimised and unoptimised characters can co-exist in the same party, with not-significant power disparity.

Although, if mechanics are needed, I've noticed that in general, as race abilities become more specialised, the versatility of other powers increased. Some races have bonuses to dex and con; these races are useful to everyone, due to the versatility of those two stats. Races that have rarer-needed abilities, such as dragonborn, tieflings, and gnomes, get other abilities, such as a damage resistance, fire resistance, and gnome cunning.

Amechra
2019-12-10, 09:33 AM
My (untested) houserules drop racial bonuses, give everyone +1 to two ability scores based of their background, and then they get +1 to one of their class's "primary" ability scores. I mean, it's really just "you get +2 to one ability score and +1 to another", more-or-less, except you're justifying where the ability score boosts are going differently.

Theodoxus
2019-12-10, 10:01 AM
As others have stated, it's really not that big of a deal. But, a couple things I played around with was moving attribute bonuses off of race and onto class. With a +2 to the class's primary stat (letting Fighters choose between Dex and Str) and a floating +1 to whatever they wanted.

The other was just letting players pick their stats, with no attribute bonuses at all.

What I ultimately settled on, was a standard array of 17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 9. When looking over the "pick whatever you want", the vast vast majority of stats were something along these lines. I went back to using racial attribute bonuses... not one player outside of a joke stat line of all 20's picked a single 20, but a lot of them did go with 19s (I guess to appear "not biased" - lol

No idea if my anecdote will help you, but after going through the gamut of options (including all kinds of weird stat generation with dice) - I found this solution is the "best" for my group. Happy hunting!

malachi
2019-12-10, 11:07 AM
What I ultimately settled on, was a standard array of 17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 9.

My DM would hate that array because he can't stand odd stat values. I may consider suggesting that as a joke if I ever take over DM-ing roles from him.

Pex
2019-12-10, 01:26 PM
My DM would hate that array because he can't stand odd stat values. I may consider suggesting that as a joke if I ever take over DM-ing roles from him.

But it encourages people to play standard Human instead of Variant Human. Variant Human is still good, but now it's an actual choice.

Man_Over_Game
2019-12-10, 01:55 PM
My DM would hate that array because he can't stand odd stat values. I may consider suggesting that as a joke if I ever take over DM-ing roles from him.

One thing I like doing is giving my players +1 on saving throws and ability checks with odd ability scores. It makes it so that odd scores aren't a waste of time, while also making characters slightly tankier and more proficient.

It sounds like the same thing could benefit his table.

TKTank
2019-12-13, 09:26 AM
So not every table will have such an issue, but in my group if you pick a race/class combo that has no synergy you'll be noticably less powerful than your peers.
What sort of rule changes work well to reduce dependency on selecting a synergistic race?

Reduce Point Buy by 3 points, give 2 floating bonus points.
The floating bonus points affect the ability scores like racial modifiers but can only be assigned to an ability score that hasn't been boosted by 2 already through any combination of racial and floating bonuses.
For Hill Dwarf you can put 2 in Str, or 1 in Wis and 1 in Str, or 1 in Str and 1 in Dex, for examples, but never any points in Con.

Please, can you elaborate with an example?

I can't reproduce the behavior you're describing. Picking some random builds at common thresholds (5th, 11th lvl...) and switching from best race/class combo to odd race choices would, at most, reduce output (be it damage, healing, HP...) around 15%.

I find that wrong choice of Feats and spells are a MUCH higher factor in loss, or lack thereof, of power for characters when compared to their optimized models.