Removing Favored Enemy/Favored Foe

[Grognerd]

So I've been doing a lot of thinking about Rangers and their Favored Enemy (and the UA Favored Foe replacement) feature, and I've come to a realization: I don't like it.

Now, I'm not saying I don't like the way it is implemented or the mechanics of it. I'm saying I don't like it at all, in any form. Now, I've played every version of D&D, and am well aware that a favored enemy has been a part of the Ranger mythos since way back, but I'm not sure I agree with the why. Presumably, it is because Rangers are skilled hunters of evil and all that sort of thing. The problem with that default, though, is that in 5e we have subclasses that reflect the focused pursuit of specific types of opponents. So there really isn't a need to have a general Ranger ability tied to a specific favored enemy.

What brought this up in my mind was the idea that rather than worry about specific opponents, a Ranger should be a master of fighting in a specific environment. Just think of how often movies or books have protagonists who slip into the wilds and a supporting character makes some comment about how they'll never be able to catch him now that the protagonist is in the wild. To me, that is more representative of what a Ranger should be than a specific type of favored foe. And Rangers do already have something that touches on this idea with their favored terrain abilities. So rather than revise Favored Enemy/Foe, my thought would be to remove it completely then replace it with something that isn't keyed to a specific creature but rather to a specific terrain.

General thoughts on this revolved around the following:
1) It is keyed to the Ranger's chosen terrain; any benefits he has from the feature are dependent on being in that favored terrain.
2) Since the survival and skill aspects are covered by Natural Explorer, this replacement feature should have a combat application.
3) It should be something that makes it clear that fighting a Ranger in his own turf is dangerous, but not be overwhelming. At the same time, the Ranger shouldn't be completely nerfed if he is not in his favored terrain type.

I'm inclined towards something like the following:
1) Because of their awareness of their surroundings and its characteristics, when in one of his favored terrains, a Ranger rolls initiative with advantage;
And? Or?
2) Because of their awareness of their surroundings and its characteristics, when in one of his favored terrains if the Ranger has initiative over his opponents his first attack of the encounter is made with advantage.

I'm thinking the second option isn't too bad, since it is dependent on both location and winning initiative, but wanted to see what anyone else though. Or if anyone had any better options. Or if this is just universally despised. Or whatever.

[Pufferwockey]

I just don't like favoured x mechanics. I get that they're supposed to be rewarding you for specialization but they end up feeling like they're punishing you for doing basic adventurer stuff like leaving your comfort zone.

I've said many times that the ranger should just get advantage on initiative. It's a lovely mechanical way of giving them their unique flavour of badassery that really don't think breaks the game. You can't lower your place in initiative in 5e, only hold your action. This means that acting first is only usually a good thing. It can be a problem, especially in longer combats, depending on over all turn order. To balance this you give them advantage on everyone that hasn't acted yet in the first round and maybe a few levels later on advantage on attacks against everyone that hasn't acted yet. This would really give them the feeling of being expert guerrilla ambushers without overshadowing the rogue.

[Ravinsild]

I actually love Favored Foe. I've been using it in two different campaigns (using two different Rangers) and it has been invaluable to me. I can still get that extra hunter's mark damage in while concentrating on hail of thorns for bunch up creatures, ensnaring strike to grant advantage (restrained) to myself and others or Healing Spirit to support everyone else. It feels REALLY good.

One golden moment was that we were fighting a Morkoth and it got extremely low, out of my max bow range (Short Bow) using Dimension Door and began to escape. Thanks to Hunter's Mark on it I had advantage for tracking it down, it was burning spell slots to spam Dimension Door but my character continue the chase at full speed. It felt so exciting! I traced it back to it's lair alone, slipped passed the mind controlled party member with a massive stealth roll, down into its lair and crept through the darkness (I was a Wood Elf) to find it within the depths of its lair frantically searching for something in its pile of loot. One clean shot with advantage ended the threat and we won a massive treasure horde!!

That was the MOST Ranger moment I feel like I have ever had! It would NOT have been possible with the default Favored Enemy unless I had chosen Favored Enemy: Abberations (and why would I? It is mostly an undead fighting campaign) and I had another spell up I was concentrating on that wasn't Hunter's Mark. Favored Foe personally feels extremely rewarding for me and I've used it to track down and finish off runners a few times now. I really enjoy those "chase scenes", they feel extremely thematic and the "fantasy" of the Ranger class.

[AdAstra]

I actually love Favored Foe. I've been using it in two different campaigns (using two different Rangers) and it has been invaluable to me. I can still get that extra hunter's mark damage in while concentrating on hail of thorns for bunch up creatures, ensnaring strike to grant advantage (restrained) to myself and others or Healing Spirit to support everyone else. It feels REALLY good.

A big reason why favored foe feels really good is because it’s incredibly powerful. It’s concentration-free Hunter’s Mark for Wis mod hours per long rest. The ability is way too strong as-is. If it ended when the marked creature died, I think it would be at a good level of power while still maintaining the theme.

[Tawmis]

A big reason why favored foe feels really good is because it’s incredibly powerful. It’s concentration-free Hunter’s Mark for Wis mod hours per long rest. The ability is way too strong as-is. If it ended when the marked creature died, I think it would be at a good level of power while still maintaining the theme.

^ This.

And I especially like it when someone writes why they have whatever it is as a favored foe. It's a great thing for the class and if they implement it into the background, it's a nice added flavor.

[ZZTRaider]

A big reason why favored foe feels really good is because it’s incredibly powerful. It’s concentration-free Hunter’s Mark for Wis mod hours per long rest. The ability is way too strong as-is. If it ended when the marked creature died, I think it would be at a good level of power while still maintaining the theme.

I disagree. As far as I can tell, Hunter's Mark is just kind of an assumed thing for rangers to have up -- not just by players, but in terms of having damage competitive with other classes.

The concentration requirement actually feels really bad in play, because it means that a lot of special Ranger spells end up being almost never actually worth it because you'd have to drop your concentration on Hunter's Mark to use them.

Even without concentration. there's still a significant cost of Hunter's Mark eating into your bonus action economy (thus limiting the use of dual wielding or something Crossbow Expert).

[Ravinsild]

I disagree. As far as I can tell, Hunter's Mark is just kind of an assumed thing for rangers to have up -- not just by players, but in terms of having damage competitive with other classes.

The concentration requirement actually feels really bad in play, because it means that a lot of special Ranger spells end up being almost never actually worth it because you'd have to drop your concentration on Hunter's Mark to use them.

Even without concentration. there's still a significant cost of Hunter's Mark eating into your bonus action economy (thus limiting the use of dual wielding or something Crossbow Expert).

Oof so true. I’ve found in fights with weaker enemies, using the “min/max” way of fighting doesn’t work, at least using the new Beast of the Earth (panther skin for me).

I can not Attack Action: Attack, Extra Attack, bonus action: Ready Companion attack.

I have to use Command Beast: Attack, get the free weapon attack and use my bonus action to shift Hunter’s Mark which removes a potential sharpshooter attack and extra 1d6 of Hunter’s mark damage.

It kind of Gates the damage in that way, although the “right” way to fight is very doable on a single big HP monster that will survive a few rounds. (I got two crits on the Morkoth!!)

My character is a very basic wood elf beast master with a panther pet but he is incredibly fun and satisfying with these UA ACF.

[Tawmis]

Even without concentration. there's still a significant cost of Hunter's Mark eating into your bonus action economy (thus limiting the use of dual wielding or something Crossbow Expert).

I am at work (Shhhhh!) so I don't have my PHB in front of me - but why would Crossbow Expert mess with Hunter's Mark?

[Pufferwockey]

I am at work (Shhhhh!) so I don't have my PHB in front of me - but why would Crossbow Expert mess with Hunter's Mark?

if you transfer your mark as a bonus actin you cant use a hand crossbow to attack as a bonus action

-sincerely, a warlock who wanted to dual wield

[ZZTRaider]

I am at work (Shhhhh!) so I don't have my PHB in front of me - but why would Crossbow Expert mess with Hunter's Mark?

Crossbow Expert lets you make a bonus action attack. Every round that you need to move your Hunter's Mark to a new target, you lose that bonus action attack. Depending on the HP of your enemies, this can lead to repeatedly missing out on that extra attack that was probably a big part of why you took Crossbow Expert in the first place. You run into the same problem with Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Master. It's doubly awkward with Great Weapon Master, because killing an enemy is one of the triggers for your bonus action attack, but it's also a "trigger" for wanting to move your Hunter's Mark.

One could argue that this makes the Ranger play differently than the other martial classes, but I don't think it does so in a good way. For comparison, both Rogues and Monks have a lot of choices to make with how to use their bonus action each round. Rogues are incentivized to make an offhand attack in case their mainhand missed, but do so at the cost of losing out on mobility or hiding. Monks have a lot of interesting ki options that they could choose to use over their bonus action unarmed strike (or even two, if they spend ki for it). For the Ranger though, moving Hunter's Mark isn't an interesting tactical or gameplay decision. It's a requirement to get the same sort of slightly improved damage that other martial classes just have available every time they hit.

And again, even with all of that aside, there's still a major problem when you start considering all of the otherwise interesting ranger spells, like Lightning Arrow, that become a hassle and of dubious value once you account for ending your Hunter's Mark early then spending another spell slot and bonus action recasting it the next round. The Ranger theoretically has a lot of cool spells going for it, but they end up being anti-synergistic because so many of them don't play well with Hunter's Mark and don't do enough damage to overcome that. (Not that I think increasing the power of those spells directly is a good idea -- it'd just make them even more tempting for Bards!)

[AdAstra]

Crossbow Expert lets you make a bonus action attack. Every round that you need to move your Hunter's Mark to a new target, you lose that bonus action attack. Depending on the HP of your enemies, this can lead to repeatedly missing out on that extra attack that was probably a big part of why you took Crossbow Expert in the first place. You run into the same problem with Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Master. It's doubly awkward with Great Weapon Master, because killing an enemy is one of the triggers for your bonus action attack, but it's also a "trigger" for wanting to move your Hunter's Mark.

One could argue that this makes the Ranger play differently than the other martial classes, but I don't think it does so in a good way. For comparison, both Rogues and Monks have a lot of choices to make with how to use their bonus action each round. Rogues are incentivized to make an offhand attack in case their mainhand missed, but do so at the cost of losing out on mobility or hiding. Monks have a lot of interesting ki options that they could choose to use over their bonus action unarmed strike (or even two, if they spend ki for it). For the Ranger though, moving Hunter's Mark isn't an interesting tactical or gameplay decision. It's a requirement to get the same sort of slightly improved damage that other martial classes just have available every time they hit.

And again, even with all of that aside, there's still a major problem when you start considering all of the otherwise interesting ranger spells, like Lightning Arrow, that become a hassle and of dubious value once you account for ending your Hunter's Mark early then spending another spell slot and bonus action recasting it the next round. The Ranger theoretically has a lot of cool spells going for it, but they end up being anti-synergistic because so many of them don't play well with Hunter's Mark and don't do enough damage to overcome that. (Not that I think increasing the power of those spells directly is a good idea -- it'd just make them even more tempting for Bards!)
This part doesn’t make sense. Once you’re at 2nd level a ranger doesn’t lose anything compared to a fighter unless the fighter uses action surge, and in exchange gets hunter’s mark, or in this case, favored foe too. At 3rd level most ranger subclasses have another smaller damage boost. Barbarians get rage damage, but that’s only in melee for a limited time. Barbarians and monks both lack a fighting style as well. Rogues lack a fighting style and have to meet certain requirements for sneak attack, limiting their target selection, and don’t get extra attack.

Rangers are extremely powerful archers until you get to tier 3, and even then don’t fall behind all that much until even later. At level 5 they’re probably the best archer you can have.

[djreynolds]

I had a similar idea of tying foe and terrain together. It can work.

You're from icewind dale and you're good at fighting yeti, ice dragons, barbarians, and etc.

But if you think of it. The hunter ranger can be tweaked to be a giant killer. The perks at 3rd and 7th and 15th could help.

Gloomstalkers are pretty good vs underdark foes, etc

Very cool thread

[ZZTRaider]

This part doesn’t make sense. Once you’re at 2nd level a ranger doesn’t lose anything compared to a fighter unless the fighter uses action surge, and in exchange gets hunter’s mark, or in this case, favored foe too. At 3rd level most ranger subclasses have another smaller damage boost. Barbarians get rage damage, but that’s only in melee for a limited time. Barbarians and monks both lack a fighting style as well. Rogues lack a fighting style and have to meet certain requirements for sneak attack, limiting their target selection, and don’t get extra attack.

Rangers are extremely powerful archers until you get to tier 3, and even then don’t fall behind all that much until even later. At level 5 they’re probably the best archer you can have.

At level 6, the Fighter has an extra ASI, which is either +1 to attack and damage or some feat that will likely put them ahead on damage. Without sitting down to do a comprehensive breakdown across a variety of ACs, that's going to compare pretty well to the 3.5 average damage from Hunter's Mark. Most subclasses also have something else to further increase their damage. Eldritch Knight potentially has Find Familiar for guaranteed advantage, driving up their average damage. Champion is weaker but still has more frequent crits, also increasing their average damage. Battle Masters, while reliant on a short rest resource, have a good chunk of potential burst damage that comes with utility; Precision Attack is also a particularly good average damage booster.

Barbarian also has Reckless Attack for at-will advantage. Later, this has great synergy with Brutal Critical. Zealots get Divine Fury, Berserkers get an entire extra attack without feats (and while raging is a bonus action, Barbarians don't have to redirect their anger every time they kill something). Also, personally, I've only rarely actually had difficulty having enough rage for a day's encounters. Even at only 2 rages, the day's 6-8 encounters also includes non-combat encounters (like social and environmental challenges), and assuming a good mix of combats from easy to deadly, there are likely going to be some combats that simply aren't difficult enough to worry about raging for. Only raging in melee isn't exactly a big deal, since that's probably what you were aiming for as a Barbarian anyway, and you have increased movement speed to get there.

Developer intent for Rogue is that you get sneak attack essentially every turn, and most of the subclasses assist in ensuring that. Even without Extra Attack, many Rogues keep the option of two-weapon fighting in case they miss. With the UA that Favored Foe comes from, they can get advantage at will as long as they don't move.

Monks get a free bonus action attack, with the ability to spend ki for another.

Paladins are probably the worst off in regards to consistent extra damage (at least until Improved Divine Smite at 11), but make up for it with easy and highly controllable burst damage.

I suppose it's reasonable to disagree on severity, but I don't think it's disingenuous to say that the other martial-oriented classes get bonus damage similar in scale to Hunter's Mark primarily passively, with the ability to boost further with limited resource mechanics. So, Rangers mostly break even with their limited resource (whether it's a spell known and spell slots to cast Hunter's Mark directly, or the handful of free uses from Favored Foe). Most importantly, as a limited use ability, Hunter's Mark is the most awkward option to use, especially if it retains the concentration requirement. Favored Foe lessens the severity of that awkwardness, but does not remove it.

[Theodoxus]

I went this route (stolen from 4th Ed):

Hunter's Quarry

You can designate the nearest enemy to you that you can see as your quarry as a bonus action. Once per round, when you hit your quarry with an attack, the attack deals an extra 1d6 damage. You can designate one enemy as your quarry at a time.
The hunter’s quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter.

Hunter's Quarry and Hunter's Mark
The Hunter's Mark spell has been changed to reflect the addition of Hunter's Quarry. The change is spelled out below (note, it's no longer Concentration, but also isn't upcastable).
Hunter's Mark

1st-level divination
Bonus Action Ranged 90 feet
Effect: You mystically mark the creature you have designated with your Hunter's Quarry ability. Until the spell ends, you deal your Hunter's Quarry damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack. You also have a +5 bonus on any Perception or Survival check you make to find it. When you use a bonus action to mark a new creature, Hunter's Mark moves with it.

[AdAstra]

At level 6, the Fighter has an extra ASI, which is either +1 to attack and damage or some feat that will likely put them ahead on damage. Without sitting down to do a comprehensive breakdown across a variety of ACs, that's going to compare pretty well to the 3.5 average damage from Hunter's Mark. Most subclasses also have something else to further increase their damage. Eldritch Knight potentially has Find Familiar for guaranteed advantage, driving up their average damage. Champion is weaker but still has more frequent crits, also increasing their average damage. Battle Masters, while reliant on a short rest resource, have a good chunk of potential burst damage that comes with utility; Precision Attack is also a particularly good average damage booster.

Barbarian also has Reckless Attack for at-will advantage. Later, this has great synergy with Brutal Critical. Zealots get Divine Fury, Berserkers get an entire extra attack without feats (and while raging is a bonus action, Barbarians don't have to redirect their anger every time they kill something). Also, personally, I've only rarely actually had difficulty having enough rage for a day's encounters. Even at only 2 rages, the day's 6-8 encounters also includes non-combat encounters (like social and environmental challenges), and assuming a good mix of combats from easy to deadly, there are likely going to be some combats that simply aren't difficult enough to worry about raging for. Only raging in melee isn't exactly a big deal, since that's probably what you were aiming for as a Barbarian anyway, and you have increased movement speed to get there.

Developer intent for Rogue is that you get sneak attack essentially every turn, and most of the subclasses assist in ensuring that. Even without Extra Attack, many Rogues keep the option of two-weapon fighting in case they miss. With the UA that Favored Foe comes from, they can get advantage at will as long as they don't move.

Monks get a free bonus action attack, with the ability to spend ki for another.

Paladins are probably the worst off in regards to consistent extra damage (at least until Improved Divine Smite at 11), but make up for it with easy and highly controllable burst damage.

I suppose it's reasonable to disagree on severity, but I don't think it's disingenuous to say that the other martial-oriented classes get bonus damage similar in scale to Hunter's Mark primarily passively, with the ability to boost further with limited resource mechanics. So, Rangers mostly break even with their limited resource (whether it's a spell known and spell slots to cast Hunter's Mark directly, or the handful of free uses from Favored Foe). Most importantly, as a limited use ability, Hunter's Mark is the most awkward option to use, especially if it retains the concentration requirement. Favored Foe lessens the severity of that awkwardness, but does not remove it.

Find Familiar shenanigans result in a lot of dead familiars, Precision Attack is nice, but primarily for comboing with Sharpshooter. Those things are very good, but things like a Hunter's Colossus Slayer are also quite effective, and have fewer potential complications.

Reckless Attack is a tradeoff, so it's effect works a little weirdly. Plus, melee is meant to be generally more damaging than ranged damage.

Monks are good, but see what I said about melee vs. ranged. A monk especially has to understand the risks, since they are typically less tough than a Ranger at least in the early game due to the d8 vs. d10 hit die.

Rogues are also nice, especially in tier 1, but they do lose out on Archery, which somewhat offsets advantage even if they can get it reliably. Note, I did not say that Rogues will frequently lose out on Sneak Attack, I said that their target selection is often restricted. Tactical maneuvering from monsters can often flush rogues out of Hiding, and not every monster is gonna be adjacent to one of your party mates. In the vast majority of cases, you will get Sneak Attack, but you are far from guaranteed a Sneak Attack against a specific target.

If you're trying to squeeze every last drop out of the action economy, Hunter's Mark can be a bit inconvenient, but for a standard Longbow archer, which in most instances is how you're going to be building one? The only other things a Ranger has to use their bonus action on is other spells and certain subclass's damage abilities.

I was overstating when I called the base ranger great, but it's perfectly adequate when compared to other classes until you get into later levels. Things like Xbow Expert/Sharpshooter cheese might beat it, but those sorts of builds beat basically everything, so...

The class just doesn't need as large a power boost as Favored Foe is offering (at this low of a level). What seriously needs some tuning is levels 6, 10, 14, 20, and the spell list. Really most martials (except the Monk for the most part) suffer from pretty unimpressive stuff at high levels when compared to casters, but the Ranger shows cracks earlier and suffers more from it. At 1st level, though? Ranger just needs a nudge, anything more is overkill.

[Kane0]

I feel compelled to plug my sig again, the other forumgoers here had some excellent input the last 2-3 times this came up.

[Safety Sword]

Snip

If you want the feel of "They'll never catch the ranger in X terrain" the obvious bonus to give is something to do with speed, right?

Maybe a speed increase of +10 feet in combat as long as they can see a "favoured foe". You can of course apply this to a favoured terrain too or in place of a foe.
A bonus to Stealth checks also makes sense for me, perhaps they're not faster, just better hidden as they move?

I actually think that something like hide in plain sight coming online much earlier when in favoured terrain should be a thing too, but apparently we can't have rangers hiding all over the place at low level for some reason.

[Kane0]

I actually think that something like hide in plain sight coming online much earlier when in favoured terrain should be a thing too, but apparently we can't have rangers hiding all over the place at low level for some reason.
I don’t have a problem with that, ive always thought it a little odd that stealth doesnt become a thing until tier 3 where a couple features start drawing attention to it as if its been a thing for rangers all along

[Safety Sword]

I don’t have a problem with that, ive always thought it a little odd that stealth doesnt become a thing until tier 3 where a couple features start drawing attention to it as if its been a thing for rangers all along

Well, that's two of us.

It's a start.

And I agree that stealth should be starting up in late tier 1 when it really matters a lot more.

[Grognerd]

If you want the feel of "They'll never catch the ranger in X terrain" ... A bonus to Stealth checks also makes sense for me, perhaps they're not faster, just better hidden as they move?
I actually think that something like hide in plain sight coming online much earlier when in favoured terrain should be a thing too, but apparently we can't have rangers hiding all over the place at low level for some reason.


A big reason why favored foe feels really good is because it’s incredibly powerful. It’s concentration-free Hunter’s Mark for Wis mod hours per long rest. The ability is way too strong as-is. If it ended when the marked creature died, I think it would be at a good level of power while still maintaining the theme.


The class just doesn't need as large a power boost as Favored Foe is offering (at this low of a level). What seriously needs some tuning is levels 6, 10, 14, 20, and the spell list.

So with these observations, maybe an option would be to simply move Hide in Plain Sight to 1st level as a replacement for Favored Enemy, and insert Favored Foe into the 10th level slot. That puts the boost in damage at a higher level which better compares with the Fighter's 3rd attack per round, and sets up stealth in the lower levels. The extra time required to establish the Stealth bonus and its elimination immediately upon any sort of action or reaction generally mitigates the +10 bonus from being overpowered at 1st level. What do y'all think?

[Witty Username]

So with these observations, maybe an option would be to simply move Hide in Plain Sight to 1st level as a replacement for Favored Enemy, and insert Favored Foe into the 10th level slot. That puts the boost in damage at a higher level which better compares with the Fighter's 3rd attack per round, and sets up stealth in the lower levels. The extra time required to establish the Stealth bonus and its elimination immediately upon any sort of action or reaction generally mitigates the +10 bonus from being overpowered at 1st level. What do y'all think?
I have not yet played a ranger but my reaction to the hide in plain sight ability is that I would never use it. The 10 min prep time is simply too prohibitive for it to be usable. I think switching favored enemy with it would be a nerf. So, no, I don't think it would break anything.
Edit: I meant 1 min. Oops.

[Ravinsild]

It is possible Favored Foe is too strong, but it also, in my opinion, caters to the "class fantasy" of the Ranger (as the example above I gave, a thrilling chase scene with an escaping wounded foe back to its lair to finish it off), and also opens up the options to get that extra bit of damage in while using fun and useful spells like Spike Growth, Entangling Strike and so forth. I'd like to try a strength melee beast master and see how I enjoy it with Beast Bond and the like as well.

In my 2 campaigns I have been playing, for me at least, the Ranger has felt really, really good using these alternate class features and I've had a ton of fun. I don't feel like I am outshining any other characters at the table, we all have our strengths, but I feel like I fit in and can contribute equally as much when it comes to my "niche" (exploration, tracking, surviving in the wilderness, etc..) and I pull my own weight in combat right beside the paladin, the light cleric, the battlemaster fighter and the celestial warlock. These guys can really pull out the big hits (menacing attack, trip attack, action surge double advantage GWM smash hits, paladin big time smites, level 3 spells for the cleric and warlock lol...) but I feel like I'm coasting right along side them. I'm just not great at social stuff :P

The Ranger by no means can do it all, but I feel like my spell versatility and options in combat have really been opened up instead of the same spell every single time (hunter's mark, concentrating on it). I enjoy being able to use more trap like spells and also support spells over just "i need my damage tax on".

[ZZTRaider]

I feel compelled to plug my sig again, the other forumgoers here had some excellent input the last 2-3 times this came up.
I am, in fact, quite happy with what I read in the spell-less ranger thread, though I haven't looked over your other version yet. The damage comparisons between various iterations of Quarry and Barbarian has actually been quite insightful in comparing the existing Hunter's Mark to other classes and recognizing that it doesn't just feel bad to use, it's also just not a significant enough increase to warrant all of the complication.

(Personally, I do really want to look at making a variant that is designed more like the Warlock, since I think the two orthogonal major choices for customization plus Invocations is a fantastic design -- if only Pact of the Blade had been better implemented instead of needing Hexblade. It's really tempting to just go with your version, though.)


<a bunch of stuff cut for brevity>
As I said, I think it's reasonable to disagree on severity here. For the most part, it seems we're disagreeing on things that can absolutely vary from between tables or even just specific party make-ups.


Plus, melee is meant to be generally more damaging than ranged damage.
I don't think that's a meaningful distinction here. Rangers don't need to be ranged any more than a Fighter does, and Hunter's Mark is just as awkward in melee. Remember that it still conflicts with two-weapon fighting, PAM, and GWM.


Note, I did not say that Rogues will frequently lose out on Sneak Attack, I said that their target selection is often restricted. Tactical maneuvering from monsters can often flush rogues out of Hiding, and not every monster is gonna be adjacent to one of your party mates. In the vast majority of cases, you will get Sneak Attack, but you are far from guaranteed a Sneak Attack against a specific target.
Fair, but I'll also note that the flexibility in applying Sneak Attack is a benefit to the Rogue. If your Hunter's Mark target doesn't actually die -- perhaps they manage to flee or simply hide -- you're faced with either forgoing your damage increase completely or burning additional limited resources to apply a fresh copy to someone else. In my play experience as a Rogue, you can nearly always find a target that you're happy to hit with sneak attack. Unless there's no other melee in the group (in which case you're probably looking at a Swashbuckler, which puts control of getting sneak attack firmly back in their hands), one of your party members is rather likely to be beside something with either a lot of HP that you'll do well to start chipping away at or something squishy that you can potentially one shot. And for ranged Rogues that use the new Cunning Action: Aim option (and more situationally for melee rogues using the same), it's pretty much a non-issue..


If you're trying to squeeze every last drop out of the action economy, Hunter's Mark can be a bit inconvenient, but for a standard Longbow archer, which in most instances is how you're going to be building one? The only other things a Ranger has to use their bonus action on is other spells and certain subclass's damage abilities.

I was overstating when I called the base ranger great, but it's perfectly adequate when compared to other classes until you get into later levels. Things like Xbow Expert/Sharpshooter cheese might beat it, but those sorts of builds beat basically everything, so...
Part of the problem here is that while longbow fits the class fantasy really well, it has just ended up subpar compared to other options, sure. Dual wielding with a Ranger directly suffers from Hunter's Mark, and while I don't personally have any attachment to dual wielding Rangers, I'd say Drizzt does make it something that a well-designed Ranger ought to be able to do well.


The class just doesn't need as large a power boost as Favored Foe is offering (at this low of a level). What seriously needs some tuning is levels 6, 10, 14, 20, and the spell list. Really most martials (except the Monk for the most part) suffer from pretty unimpressive stuff at high levels when compared to casters, but the Ranger shows cracks earlier and suffers more from it. At 1st level, though? Ranger just needs a nudge, anything more is overkill.
I just still don't see Favored Foe as being that big of a boost, though. All it really does is enable you to actually use those other cool Ranger spells that you otherwise wouldn't touch, either because you now have effectively 2 more spell slots (at 14 Wisdom) to actually cast them, or you no longer have your concentration forever spoken for. That said, I wouldn't mind having Favored Foe start at 1d4 and then scaling, or come online at level 2 or 3, but that's a much more significant overhaul than WotC is in a position to do right now.

[AdAstra]

Favored Foe doesn't fix dual wielding, so it's not like removing FF would make it much worse. Dual-wielding rangers could use a boost in later tiers, but I've actually done a thread about fixing two-weapon fighting, and in there someone, using actual numbers, pointed out that Rangers aren't really behind much in terms of actual damage compared to other builds until you get into tier 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589206-Two-Weapon-Fighting-and-the-fixing-thereof-critiques-and-discussion-welcome).

Longbow is far from a subpar option if you're not taking advantage of crossbow expert, which frankly, most people don't in actual play.

An obvious combo I could see that would make Favored Foe particularly strong would be Conjure Animals or Entangle (using the UA extra spells). Both are very strong spells, only made stronger by the ability to pour on Hunter's Marked arrows, which wouldn't be possible for a lone Ranger without Favored Foe.

Favored Foe just isn't the sort of boost that ranger needs, and there are better ways to do the same thing, that also boost up things like dual wielding which Favored Foe doesn't really manage to do.

[Kane0]

I am, in fact, quite happy with what I read in the spell-less ranger thread, though I haven't looked over your other version yet. The damage comparisons between various iterations of Quarry and Barbarian has actually been quite insightful in comparing the existing Hunter's Mark to other classes and recognizing that it doesn't just feel bad to use, it's also just not a significant enough increase to warrant all of the complication.

(Personally, I do really want to look at making a variant that is designed more like the Warlock, since I think the two orthogonal major choices for customization plus Invocations is a fantastic design -- if only Pact of the Blade had been better implemented instead of needing Hexblade. It's really tempting to just go with your version, though.)


To be fair Nature's Boon is like 80% of the way to being Invocations anyways.
And blade pact got shafted by hexblade.

[ZZTRaider]

Favored Foe doesn't fix dual wielding, so it's not like removing FF would make it much worse. Dual-wielding rangers could use a boost in later tiers, but I've actually done a thread about fixing two-weapon fighting, and in there someone, using actual numbers, pointed out that Rangers aren't really behind much in terms of actual damage compared to other builds until you get into tier 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589206-Two-Weapon-Fighting-and-the-fixing-thereof-critiques-and-discussion-welcome).

Longbow is far from a subpar option if you're not taking advantage of crossbow expert, which frankly, most people don't in actual play.

An obvious combo I could see that would make Favored Foe particularly strong would be Conjure Animals or Entangle (using the UA extra spells). Both are very strong spells, only made stronger by the ability to pour on Hunter's Marked arrows, which wouldn't be possible for a lone Ranger without Favored Foe.

Favored Foe just isn't the sort of boost that ranger needs, and there are better ways to do the same thing, that also boost up things like dual wielding which Favored Foe doesn't really manage to do.
I'll definitely check out that link. I always appreciate good numbers analysis.

Entangle is definitely a good spell to have (though weaker in 5e than it was in Pathfinder, imo). You're right that it wouldn't be possible without Favored Foe, but I don't think that's inherently bad or broken.


To be fair Nature's Boon is like 80% of the way to being Invocations anyways.
And blade pact got shafted by hexblade.
It's definitely heading in that direction, just not as deep as what I think I'd ideally prefer. Or at least, would want to playtest.

Hexblade is mostly what I think Blade Pact should have been to begin with. Not quite so fleshed out, obviously, because it's not a full subclass, but so much of what Hexblade offers is the kind of thing you need to make Blade Pact feel good. And since you don't pick a Pact until level 3 anyway, it'd be less appealing for 1 level dips.

[djreynolds]

I think just making hunter's mark free is probably the best fix possible.... for now.

The best thing about the UA is freeing hunter's mark allows the use of other spells.

I played a melee TWF and used hail of thorns often...

Just freeing up hunter's mark will make other spells more favorable and fun