HOW TO: Cleric17/Wizard17 casting at level 20 without gestalt!

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

The plan is simple: Pick a race with a bonus feat like Human and take a metamagic feat and Sanctum Spell. (Flaws also work.) Start as a (Cloistered) Cleric1/Wizard/Cleric+1 OR Wizard+1/Mystic Theurge10/Ultimate Magus7.

You need the feat Alternative Source Spell to trick your way into Ultimate Magus: You cast Wizard spells from a spellbook of level 6 and below, and can spontaneously cast arcane spells due to your Clerical spell conversion (to cure, inflict, etc.)

Apply the feat Practiced Spellcaster to taste to rig your caster level such that you're guaranteed at Ultimate Magus levels 1, 4, and 7 to boost your desired casting class.

Is the end result worthwhile? That's for you to decide.

[Kayblis]

This trick only works if you ignore the text of the two features you're supposedly comboing.

Ultimate Magus' text calls out for "prepared arcane casting class" and "spontaneous arcane casting class". Cleric is not an arcane spellcasting class, even if you can change a spell to be cast as arcane.

Alternative Source Spell calls out specifically for "prepared spells", as in, prepared at the start of the day. The Cleric's spontaneous substitution doesn't automatically become arcane for no reason.

The early entry in Mystic Theurge is IMO the only way to use it effectively, as normal entry is painful to play. Other than that, the trick doesn't work at all.

[Crake]

Isn't alternative spell source also a dragon magazine feat?

[Saintheart]

This trick only works if you ignore the text of the two features you're supposedly comboing.

Ultimate Magus' text calls out for "prepared arcane casting class" and "spontaneous arcane casting class". Cleric is not an arcane spellcasting class, even if you can change a spell to be cast as arcane.

Alternative Source Spell calls out specifically for "prepared spells", as in, prepared at the start of the day. The Cleric's spontaneous substitution doesn't automatically become arcane for no reason.

Couple of notes which are really more observations on weirdness:

(1) The PrC's prerequisite is: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook.

A Sorcerer 1/Cleric of Mystra 5 can pull this off via the Spell domain and Anyspell. The latter spell explicitly permits you to read, prepare, and cast spells from a spellbook.

(2) Ultimate Magus' text doesn't call out for those things as such. The table specifying the progression sure does, but text trumps table, and the text reads:


...and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Grammatically that can be broken down two ways:

(a):

"as if you had:
(1) also gained a level in both a (as in any) prepared arcane casting class and
(2) a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged
before adding the prestige class level."

So for example our Sorcerer 1/Cleric of Mystra 5, for example, would gain new arcane spells as if he was (say) a Wizard, and a Sorcerer 2's spells.

Or

(b):

the way you're reading it, which is: "as if you'd gained a level in Sorcerer and Wizard, those being prepared and arcane spellcasting classes that you have before you walked into Ultimate Magus."

Probably right that the second way is how it was intended, especially taking the table's wording into account, but it's interesting nonetheless. Even the additional spell grant at 1st, 4th, and 7th level isn't affected, because that only requires that you add CL to your Sorcerer level (that being your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest level.)


(3) Alternative Source Spell is from Dragon 325. And it requires both arcane and divine spellcasting ability to qualify for it.

[Kayblis]

"as if you had:
(1) also gained a level in both a (as in any) prepared arcane casting class and
(2) a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."


Are you saying that, just because they didn't repeat the "to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" twice, the first half means any class? Come on, the text is supposed to be read by normal people, so it's written in a way a normal person can understand. Distorting the text like that isn't even RAW, it's just wordplay. You cheese it to enter as a Cleric/Sorcerer, you don't have a "prepared arcane casting class" to advance at all. It's just not functional to do it that way because you used a loophole to enter it, so of course the results are weird.

But yeah, the trick doesn't work one way or another. It's a case of only reading the rules when they suit you and distorting the ones that don't.

[Saintheart]

Are you saying that, just because they didn't repeat the "to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" twice, the first half means any class? Come on, the text is supposed to be read by normal people, so it's written in a way a normal person can understand. Distorting the text like that isn't even RAW, it's just wordplay. Distorting the text like that isn't even RAW, it's just wordplay. You cheese it to enter as a Cleric/Sorcerer, you don't have a "prepared arcane casting class" to advance at all. It's just not functional to do it that way because you used a loophole to enter it, so of course the results are weird.

*shrug* RAW is RAW. Rules As Written. I've seen many more semiotic abominations than this in frequent use around tables. If it was meant to be read by normal people they writers would have learned how to use commas and how to construct sentences properly. Also see: why nobody uses Grapple rules, which were also supposed to be read by normal people. If they wanted it any differently, they wouldn't have made the prerequisite the ability to cast prepared and spontaneous spells, they would have specified "1st level spontaneous arcane spellcaster" + "1st level prepared arcane spellcaster". Those sorts of prereqs exist in other classes.

And I would point out it's wrong to say you're advancing a prepared arcane casting class. You're not. The explicit wording of the text is that you just pick up spells as if you had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (it being open to interpretation as to whether you had to have levels in that class before you got into Ultimate Magus; QED, you don't). That includes spells that can then go into your spellbook. Which you can then cast as a Cleric of Mystra via Anyspell.

[magic9mushroom]

Greetings, all!

The plan is simple: Pick a race with a bonus feat like Human and take a metamagic feat and Sanctum Spell. (Flaws also work.) Start as a (Cloistered) Cleric1/Wizard/Cleric+1 OR Wizard+1/Mystic Theurge10/Ultimate Magus7.

You need the feat Alternative Source Spell to trick your way into Ultimate Magus: You cast Wizard spells from a spellbook of level 6 and below, and can spontaneously cast arcane spells due to your Clerical spell conversion (to cure, inflict, etc.)

Apply the feat Practiced Spellcaster to taste to rig your caster level such that you're guaranteed at Ultimate Magus levels 1, 4, and 7 to boost your desired casting class.

Is the end result worthwhile? That's for you to decide.

Uh, Clr17/Wiz17's old hat.

Wizard 1 or 2/Cleric 2 or 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 6, with the standard early-entry trick for Mystic Theurge, gets Wiz18/Clr17 or Clr18/Wiz17 at your preference, with the same tax of three feats and without any dodgy rules. Pretty sure I posted something like that years back.

[heavyfuel]

Wizard 9 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic T 9

Super straight forward.

If you don't want Ur-priest, then Wizard 1 / Cleric 3 / MT 10 / Legacy Champion 6 / Wizard +1

Use an early entry trick for MT, then use Legacy Champion to advance MT levels. You end up with Wiz 17, Cleric 19 casting.

[magic9mushroom]

Wizard 9 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic T 9

Super straight forward.

If you don't want Ur-priest, then Wizard 1 / Cleric 3 / MT 10 / Legacy Champion 6 / Wizard +1

Use an early entry trick for MT, then use Legacy Champion to advance MT levels. You end up with Wiz 17, Cleric 19 casting.

We all know Ur-Priest. Clr17 has (some) advantages over it, i.e. domains and spells/day.

Mystic Theurge 15 is only +13 arcane/+12 divine because Epic Mystic Theurge is sewage, and even if it worked it'd only be Clr18/Wiz16 because the first level of Legacy Champion doesn't advance and because you actually have 21 levels there.

[Hellpyre]

And I would point out it's wrong to say you're advancing a prepared arcane casting class. You're not. The explicit wording of the text is that you just pick up spells as if you had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (it being open to interpretation as to whether you had to have levels in that class before you got into Ultimate Magus; QED, you don't). That includes spells that can then go into your spellbook. Which you can then cast as a Cleric of Mystra via Anyspell.

It really, really is not. From the perspective of sentence construction, it is clear that the condition that classes whose spellcasting is advanced need to be classes to which you belong already is meant to apply to both the prepared arcane class and the spontaneous arcane class. You may as well argue that Arcane Heirophant allows you to advance any Sublime Chord casting without entering it, as long as you didn't enter Arcane Heirophant with two or more arcane casting classes.

I'll grant that the Spell Domain probably lets you sneak in by RAW if you are in a game where you can qualify for features by non-permanent means (Stat-boosting items to takes feats or Assassin's Stance to qualify for PrCs), but that doesn't mean that half of the progression you gain from Ultimate Magus suddenly becomes freeform.

[Falontani]

Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a
good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that
the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any
prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure
spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with
“cure” in its name).
Wizard 2/Cleric 1 + Precocious Apprentice meets the prerequisites to enter Mystic Theurge.

[magic9mushroom]

Wizard 2/Cleric 1 + Precocious Apprentice meets the prerequisites to enter Mystic Theurge.

No, it doesn't. You also need 2nd-level divine spells, via e.g. Alternative Source Spell.

But yes, with that correction this is the "standard early-entry trick" I mentioned earlier. Improved Sigil (Krau) saves a feat, but it requires you to be an Illumian which is incompatible with Wildrunner.

If you actually meant "Ultimate Magus", as your quote seems to imply, it still doesn't because a) Ultimate Magus requires 8 ranks of Spellcraft and there's no way to have that at level 3, b) what you've written does not have the ability to spontaneously cast first-level arcane spells.

[Ruethgar]

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Legacy Champion 10

Early entry: Test Based Prerequisites let a commoner with no magic enter Mystic Theurge at level 2, though they don't get anything from it.

Skills-Laborious Training, Bloodline levels, be an ECL 0 Awakened Animal(Cat Lizard and Monkey are the only ones I recall off hand), Incarnate Warforged(debatable), Primary Contact(taint, retrain/reform/shuffle cleric proficiency feats, be an Illumian) all of these get you 6+ ranks possible at ECL 2.

Heighten(Flaw)+Sanctum(Flaw)
Precocious Apprentice(Flaw)+Alternate Source Spell(Flaw)
Earth Sense(Flaw)+Earth Spell(Flaw)+Heighten Spell(First)
Improved Sigil Krau(Flaw)

With this, you could also go Imbue Staff, Item Familiar, Ancestral Weapon on your Legacy Weapon... though if you were to do that, I would certainly want to fit 2 levels of Psychic Warrior in and make sure it is your Bound Weapon so it can never be taken from you, maybe those are your two potentially free levels from Incarnate Warforged, just Psycarnum Infusion and Azure Talent so you can summon it for every battle.

[magic9mushroom]

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Legacy Champion 10

Early entry: Test Based Prerequisites let a commoner with no magic enter Mystic Theurge at level 2, though they don't get anything from it.

Skills-Laborious Training, Bloodline levels, be an ECL 0 Awakened Animal(Cat Lizard and Monkey are the only ones I recall off hand), Incarnate Warforged(debatable), Primary Contact(taint, retrain/reform/shuffle cleric proficiency feats, be an Illumian) all of these get you 6+ ranks possible at ECL 2.

Heighten(Flaw)+Sanctum(Flaw)
Precocious Apprentice(Flaw)+Alternate Source Spell(Flaw)
Earth Sense(Flaw)+Earth Spell(Flaw)+Heighten Spell(First)
Improved Sigil Krau(Flaw)

With this, you could also go Imbue Staff, Item Familiar, Ancestral Weapon on your Legacy Weapon... though if you were to do that, I would certainly want to fit 2 levels of Psychic Warrior in and make sure it is your Bound Weapon so it can never be taken from you, maybe those are your two potentially free levels from Incarnate Warforged, just Psycarnum Infusion and Azure Talent so you can summon it for every battle.

a) Primary Contact doesn't work for Mystic Theurge. You need two skills at 6, and Primary Contact specifically cannot be taken twice.

b) Incarnate Construct is only useful for reducing positive LAs; it can't give negative LA because it's "-2 (minimum 0)".

c) Mystic Theurge 16 is 13/13, not 16/16. Epic Mystic Theurge is sewage. I already said this above.

[rel]

I'm not sure your method offers much advantage over a traditional MT early entry with arcane hierophant filling the rest of the progression.

That being said, I've played a dual progression character to a fairly high level, here are my recollections:

You're only 1 or 2 levels behind in spellcasting but you do feel it. Be wary of any build option that delays spellcasting any further.

You get a lot of spell slots, particularly lower level slots. Make sure you have useful spells to cast at each level because spamming spells is your main trick.

Action economy is as big a bottleneck as you would expect, you should try and circumvent it as much as possible but it will always be the big limit on your power.

Overall, you lack the sheer power of a full caster but you have good utility and staying power. you end up a bit weaker but not by much. The main issue is a lack of synergy you have two strong power sets but they don't really complement each other.

If you really want to play a dual progression character talk to your GM.
House ruling the mystic theurge entry reqs to allow entry at level 3 and progression beyond 10 makes the build clean and straight forward. It let's you focus on something interesting with your build resources instead of jumping through hoops just to get all your prereqs sorted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bruh.

Wizard 1/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Precocious apprentice at 1, shape soulmeld (impulse boots) at 3, open least chakra (feet) at 6; lore is "identical to bardic knowledge." Bonus points: you end up at BAB 15 for making sure those rays and touch attacks hit. Gets you wiz 17/ clr 19 casting.

Just as an alternative to the usual arcane hierophant path to the same sort of end.

[Ruethgar]

c) Mystic Theurge 16 is 13/13, not 16/16. Epic Mystic Theurge is sewage. I already said this above.

Major Bloodline, raise Mystic to 10, lower Legacy to 6 add 2 levels of Uncanny Trickster. The class advancement is class level based -lvl 1&7 so +3 on Legacy and Uncanny for Mystic Theurge 22 at level 20, let's see that's a 16 advancement.


You can also advance the class level of a ten-level prestige class beyond 10th level, but only if your character level is already 20th or higher.

This little bit would probably prevent any advancement beyond 10th anyway though. Or perhaps it means that the Epic progression can only start at 20 and before then it would be as non-epic with the whole "every level" thing.

At any rate, shapeshift into a Spirit Folk for temp qualification of Arcane Hierophant once you're in, it's not in a book that kicks you out of a class because you lost qualifications, or Improved Greenlore, or Sculpt Self. Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic 10/Arcane 8 for 19/19. Easier just to go Ur Priest tbh.

[Falontani]

No, it doesn't. You also need 2nd-level divine spells, via e.g. Alternative Source Spell.

But yes, with that correction this is the "standard early-entry trick" I mentioned earlier. Improved Sigil (Krau) saves a feat, but it requires you to be an Illumian which is incompatible with Wildrunner.

If you actually meant "Ultimate Magus", as your quote seems to imply, it still doesn't because a) Ultimate Magus requires 8 ranks of Spellcraft and there's no way to have that at level 3, b) what you've written does not have the ability to spontaneously cast first-level arcane spells.

No but it gives you the ability to spontaneously convert your precocious apprentice second level arcane spell slot into a second level divine cure moderate wounds. It does not say that you must convert divine spell slots.

[magic9mushroom]

Bruh.

Wizard 1/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Precocious apprentice at 1, shape soulmeld (impulse boots) at 3, open least chakra (feet) at 6; lore is "identical to bardic knowledge." Bonus points: you end up at BAB 15 for making sure those rays and touch attacks hit. Gets you wiz 17/ clr 19 casting.

Just as an alternative to the usual arcane hierophant path to the same sort of end.

You also need Perform in-class for at least one level (to get the rank cap up to 13) and Speak Language (Druidic). These aren't insurmountable, but you haven't mentioned any way of getting them.

[magic9mushroom]

No but it gives you the ability to spontaneously convert your precocious apprentice second level arcane spell slot into a second level divine cure moderate wounds. It does not say that you must convert divine spell slots.


A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

I'm not 100% sure whether this is one of the things RC made up on the spot or whether it's there somewhere else and I just haven't found it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You also need Perform in-class for at least one level (to get the rank cap up to 13) and Speak Language (Druidic). These aren't insurmountable, but you haven't mentioned any way of getting them.

I'd have sworn there was a domain that gave perform but I can't find it now. If you're human or strongheart halfling you can just pick up apprentice as an entertainer. The standard illumian trick for getting into MT works just fine too and frees up your level 1 feat.

Learning druidic when you level amounts to a roleplay requirement. You've just got to find and convince someone who already speaks it to teach you or find some texts or something like that then spend the skill points at level up. The obvious intention of the requirement was to put druid as the prefered divine class but there's -plenty- of opportunity to figure something out in 10 levels if you're determined. Worse comes worse, dominate a druid (good luck with the fallout on that.)

[magic9mushroom]

I'd have sworn there was a domain that gave perform but I can't find it now. If you're human or strongheart halfling you can just pick up apprentice as an entertainer. The standard illumian trick for getting into MT works just fine too and frees up your level 1 feat.

Learning druidic when you level amounts to a roleplay requirement. You've just got to find and convince someone who already speaks it to teach you or find some texts or something like that then spend the skill points at level up. The obvious intention of the requirement was to put druid as the prefered divine class but there's -plenty- of opportunity to figure something out in 10 levels if you're determined. Worse comes worse, dominate a druid (good luck with the fallout on that.)

Like I said, not insurmountable; I was just pointing out that your build wasn't complete since you didn't note how you were getting them.

[Endarire]

Loremaster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm) gives +1 to divine or arcane and Perform as class.

[Doctor Awkward]

*shrug* RAW is RAW. Rules As Written. I've seen many more semiotic abominations than this in frequent use around tables. If it was meant to be read by normal people they writers would have learned how to use commas and how to construct sentences properly. Also see: why nobody uses Grapple rules, which were also supposed to be read by normal people. If they wanted it any differently, they wouldn't have made the prerequisite the ability to cast prepared and spontaneous spells, they would have specified "1st level spontaneous arcane spellcaster" + "1st level prepared arcane spellcaster". Those sorts of prereqs exist in other classes.

And I would point out it's wrong to say you're advancing a prepared arcane casting class. You're not. The explicit wording of the text is that you just pick up spells as if you had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (it being open to interpretation as to whether you had to have levels in that class before you got into Ultimate Magus; QED, you don't). That includes spells that can then go into your spellbook. Which you can then cast as a Cleric of Mystra via Anyspell.

The rules also explicitly state several times that they are designed to be read with common sense.

Deliberately misrepresenting obvious intent within the text is not reading the rules as written. It's rules-lawyering.