What's your favorite headcanon? 2: Page 51 is clearly a metaphor for death

[LibraryOgre]

Every series only has a finite amount of space/time to tell their story, so there are always aspects for the fans to wonder about. They will often try to piece together the disparate bits of data into a workable theory that make the series make more sense, but are conjecture nonetheless.

Headcanon.

What's your favorite piece of feasible conjecture to a series?

Previous thread, where we all made the various "cannon/canon" jokes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515676-What-s-your-favorite-headcanon)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm sure we can find a few mor(tar).

[Imbalance]

I always admired KI's Fulgore's headcannon. Too bad he only brought it out as a finishing move. I presumed it was an ammunition limitation, but I have nothing to support the notion.

[Benoojian]

The writers for Frozen 2 read the fanfiction A Bluer Shade of White

[Peelee]

I'm sure we can find a few mor(tar).

I'm not gonna rifle through those avoid repeats though.

[LibraryOgre]

A simple one:

Star Wars is a universe of limited matter but near-infinite energy... so ships can go pretty much forever, but you have to bring things from place to place.

Star Trek is a universe of limited energy but nearly-infinitely-creatable matter... so you need to get dilithium crystals to power things, but you can make most things with a replicator.

Also:

Star Wars blasters shoot a magnetic bottle filled with plasma. Lightsabers are similar, but the bottle is static.

[Peelee]

A simple one:

Star Wars is a universe of limited matter but near-infinite energy... so ships can go pretty much forever, but you have to bring things from place to place.
The problem there is they have fuel come up a lot. Even the first movie shows the ships being fueled up, Solo was entirely about fuel, they have fuel depots and fuel missions in The Clone Wars, Rebels, and Resistance, and The Mandalorian's titular Mandalorian complains the bounty prices hardly cover fuel.

Also:

Star Wars blasters shoot a magnetic bottle filled with plasma. Lightsabers are similar, but the bottle is static.
That's actual canon, though, IIRC.

[No brains]

Props to digiman619 for making a thread that lasted 50 pages. That's hard to do.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm not gonna rifle through those avoid repeats though.

It would be interesting to see how many of them we could Parrott though.

[Imbalance]

With mobile canon, everything becomes fodder.

I humbly submit that the Mr. T portrayed by Mr. T in the Mister T cartoon show is actually a reformed Clubber Lang.

[LibraryOgre]

The problem there is they have fuel come up a lot. Even the first movie shows the ships being fueled up, Solo was entirely about fuel, they have fuel depots and fuel missions in The Clone Wars, Rebels, and Resistance, and The Mandalorian's titular Mandalorian complains the bounty prices hardly cover fuel.


The first one shows them with hoses attached, not necessarily fueling... and this headcanon is a bit older than The Clone Wars.

[Peelee]

The first one shows them with hoses attached, not necessarily fueling... and this headcanon is a bit older than The Clone Wars.

True, there's no indication it's actually fuel... But an X-Wing is basically the fly parts, the zoomy parts, and the shooty parts, so there's not a lot of options as to what the fluids they pimped in could really do. :smallwink:

Point taken on the age of the headcanon though.

[Fyraltari]

True, there's no indication it's actually fuel... But an X-Wing is basically the fly parts, the zoomy parts, and the shooty parts, so there's not a lot of options as to what the fluids they pimped in could really do. :smallwink:
Air supply?

[Divayth Fyr]

there's not a lot of options as to what the fluids they pimped in could really do. :smallwink:
What if they were pumping certain fluids out?

[Traab]

Some of the best fanfiction writers are actually the original authors having fun creating alternate takes on their characters. (not my best work, I just wanted to tag the thread lol)

[Sapphire Guard]

Rey has the same telemetry aptitude that the protagonist of fallen order has, which is why she's such a good scavenger and why touching things seems to trigger visions for her.

[Peelee]

Rey has the same telemetry aptitude that the protagonist of fallen order has, which is why she's such a good scavenger and why touching things seems to trigger visions for her.

Ooo, I like that one. I also really liked that as a new power in general. And I'm glad they're going back to the "some people have very specific/unique powers that are rare among the Jedi".

[Pex]

In Arrowverse Christopher Reeve Superman is not Brandon Routh Kingdom Come Superman.

[Durkoala]

Inspired by the current topic of the current Vegeta Alignment thread:

Mr Hercule Satan is a human mutant with downright superhuman abilities, in the same way that Freeza was a vastly stronger mutant of his species. Unfortunately for Mr S. his mutant powers are a lot more underwhelming than Freeza's.

[LibraryOgre]

Droids are mind-wiped in Star Wars because they cannot repress or forget things; erasing their memory is a work-around to keep them from going mad.

[Peelee]

Droids are mind-wiped in Star Wars because they cannot repress or forget things; erasing their memory is a work-around to keep them from going mad.

This is evidenced by R2, who was explicitly not memory-wiped like C-3PO, treating Yoda like a crazed frogman on Dagobah despite knowing very well who he was.:smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

This is evidenced by R2, who was explicitly not memory-wiped like C-3PO, treating Yoda like a crazed frogman on Dagobah despite knowing very well who he was.:smalltongue:

But Yoda is a crazed frogman!

[Peelee]

But Yoda is a crazed frogman!

A crazed frogman stranger, then!:smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

A crazed frogman stranger, then!:smallwink:

Seriously, my reading is that R2 recognized what Yoda was doing and decided to play along.

[Peelee]

Seriously, my reading is that R2 recognized what Yoda was doing and decided to play along.

But decided not to play along with Kenobi (who really should have recognized Anakin and Padme's droids, as notable as they were in the cartoons)?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why would he recognize them? They're standard models manufactured in billion-unit lots.

[Peelee]

Why would he recognize them? They're standard models manufactured in billion-unit lots.

And yet he was able to recognize him and C-3PO constantly throughout TCW, even in places where he would have no reason to recognize the droids apart from any other standard model. Given that, we absolutely should expect Kenobi to recognize them, especially when they show up as a pair, with the son of the longtime owner of R2 and the original builder of 3PO, in the middle of a desert where no astromech and protocol droid have any business being, specifically looking for Kenobi.

"They were standard models" doesn't cut it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Look, if you want to give bonus credit to Kenobi for the writers having no imagination in TCW, you then have to explain his complete idiocy in the films. I prefer to keep the films higher and largely ignore the rest due to all the inconsistencies.

[Peelee]

Look, if you want to give bonus credit to Kenobi for the writers having no imagination in TCW, you then have to explain his complete idiocy in the films. I prefer to keep the films higher and largely ignore the rest due to all the inconsistencies.

I have no problem with that, but it just swings us back around to "why didn't R2 recognize Yoda" or "if he played along why did he not play along with Kenobi?" Both of those are valid, film-only centered questions.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's easy. R2 is an A$$. Look at how much of his dialogue had to be bleeped out.

[LibraryOgre]

https://km-515.livejournal.com/746.html

This actually explains some of it... R2 was a high-level Rebel operative.

[Peelee]

https://km-515.livejournal.com/746.html

This actually explains some of it... R2 was a high-level Rebel operative.

I remember that. It's a fun read but full of too many holes. Plus, there's that "go crazy without a mind wipe" headcanon. :smalltongue:

[Sapphire Guard]

I mean, for all we know R2 was cursing Yoda out in binary the entire time.

R2 was sent to find Kenobi, he's lying about being owned by him because that's the easiest way to be sent to him. Kenobi is 'certain point of viewing' it.

[Peelee]

I mean, for all we know R2 was cursing Yoda out in binary the entire time.

R2 was sent to find Kenobi, he's lying about being owned by him because that's the easiest way to be sent to him. Kenobi is 'certain point of viewing' it.

Kenobi shows no recognition of R2 and 3PO in his hut well after saying "I don't remember ever owning a droid." He also says "now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from." From the same person who said Darth Vader was a pupil of his. That's not certain-point-of-view-ing, that's alzheimers.

[Traab]

Kenobi shows no recognition of R2 and 3PO in his hut well after saying "I don't remember ever owning a droid." He also says "now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from." From the same person who said Darth Vader was a pupil of his. That's not certain-point-of-view-ing, that's alzheimers.

Its that "certain point of view" thing. He never owned these droids, anakin did. Most of what obiwan says to luke is half truths at best. He wasnt about to get into the full story of how he knows these droids. It would create far too many details he has to alter to fit the narrative of "your dad was killed by darth vader, so you have to kill him."

[Sapphire Guard]

Eh, that could easily be a coded 'what the hell do you want, R2?'

Obi: I don't seem to remember owning a droid.

R2: BEEP! (**** YOU, KENOBI!)

Obi: ...Very interesting.


---------

R2: BEEP! (I don't mean to interrupt, but I still have that critical message, you *******!)

Obi: Now, let's see if we can find out who you are, my little friend (Instantly turns on message)

[Peelee]

Its that "certain point of view" thing. He never owned these droids, anakin did. Most of what obiwan says to luke is half truths at best. He wasnt about to get into the full story of how he knows these droids. It would create far too many details he has to alter to fit the narrative of "your dad was killed by darth vader, so you have to kill him."
...what? He immediately tells Luke he is one of the most wanted men in the galaxy, tells him he was connected to Luke's father, gives Luke Anakin's lightsaber, but he can't say "this was your father's droid"? That is the one too many? That's the straw that breaks the camels back? "Also, your dad built the golden one beside you. Which was why I had to kill him."

Eh, that could easily be a coded 'what the hell do you want, R2?'

Obi: I don't seem to remember owning a droid.

R2: BEEP! (**** YOU, KENOBI!)

Obi: ...Very interesting.


---------

R2: BEEP! (I don't mean to interrupt, but I still have that critical message, you *******!)

Obi: Now, let's see if we can find out who you are, my little friend (Instantly turns on message)

See above. Kenobi lays all cards on the table immediately except "your dad is Dark Helmet." Why be all secretive about the droids, then?

[Traab]

...what? He immediately tells Luke he is one of the most wanted men in the galaxy, tells him he was connected to Luke's father, gives Luke Anakin's lightsaber, but he can't say "this was your father's droid"? That is the one too many? That's the straw that breaks the camels back? "Also, your dad built the golden one beside you. Which was why I had to kill him."


See above. Kenobi lays all cards on the table immediately except "your dad is Dark Helmet." Why be all secretive about the droids, then?

And what does he say about his dad? Oh yeah, "Great pilot, excellent jedi, murdered by darth" They didnt exactly exchange the history of the clone wars, only mentioned them as a thing that happened. Obi wan was intentionally very vague about everything. The entire discussion on lukes dad is encompassed in a 2 minute clip and even that has frequent digressions into other matters. Thats hardly "laying all your cards on the table" He doesnt even say anakin was his student "darth vader" was though.

[Lord Raziere]

Kenobi shows no recognition of R2 and 3PO in his hut well after saying "I don't remember ever owning a droid." He also says "now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from." From the same person who said Darth Vader was a pupil of his. That's not certain-point-of-view-ing, that's alzheimers.

......I'm trying to remember how much Obi-Wan and the two droids interacted during the Prequel trilogy. Didn't Qui-gon leave Obi-wan behind at the ship on Tatooine? like Obi-Wan was there, but I never got the impression that those three interacted much in the Prequel trilogy. so he wouldn't know about C-3P0 being Anakin's creation as they didn't meet there.

so its very possible, that Obi-Wan didn't really know that it was the specific R2 unit that saved them, just that one did. he had other things to focus on. R2 mostly interacts with Anakin in Phantom Menace and 3P0 only interacts with Qui-gon

attack of the clones, that gets dicier? because Anakin and R2 goes to Naboo while obi-Wan is off investigating the clones and Geonosis. R2 and 3P0 accompany Anakin to Geonosis, but they're comic relief so they don't really cross paths there?

its revenge of the sith where things get suspect, because R2 helps both Obi-wan and Anakin rescue Palpatine in their mission, so why would Obi-Wan not remember a droid that helps them rescue such an important figure? R2 is taken by Anakin to assassinate the Separatist Council when he goes to become Darth Vader, but I don't remember much of Revenge of Sith, I only watched it once and remember it the least....

but technically, Kenobi is right, in that he never OWNED either of the droids. R2 was first a droid in Naboo's government, then was Anakin's for a time, then served under Bail organa, which transitioned into being a rebel, while 3P0 was also Anakin's then Alderaan then rebel. so Obi-wan isn't wrong when he says that. that IS "certain point of view"ing

its the part where he doesn't know where R2 comes from is suspect? because you'd think a droid being owned by Anakin for years he would know...?

lets see this youtube video google pulled up asking why he didn't remember...and it basically says the same thing I just said here about him not ever owning a droid, because he really didn't. then goes on to say that if Obi-Wan bent the truth to point where he said Vader betrayed and murdered his father (when thats definitely not true in any physical sense), why wouldn't he lie about not knowing where R2 is from so as to ease Luke into their relationship? R2-D2 being someone he knew would provoke too many questions. the thing is about lying, you have to be careful about revealing what you know, because if you contradict yourself and say you know something you shouldn't, that causes doubt and its often better to pretend ignorance than try to explain how he knows R2 without explaining how Anakin really fell, sure he could cut things off later in the story to preserve the other lie, but it wouldn't be as reliable. basically the more ignorant you seem to be, the more a lie holds up.

Edit: that and "not knowing where from" can be as as specific as "I don't know from what specific factory on Naboo R2-D2 was made" and "what you are" can be transient depending on your job at the time, so.....from a certain point of view....he doesn't know any of these things....

[Peelee]

And what does he say about his dad? Oh yeah, "Great pilot, excellent jedi, murdered by darth" They didnt exactly exchange the history of the clone wars, only mentioned them as a thing that happened. Obi wan was intentionally very vague about everything. The entire discussion on lukes dad is encompassed in a 2 minute clip and even that has frequent digressions into other matters. Thats hardly "laying all your cards on the table" He doesnt even say anakin was his student "darth vader" was though.

"I was a Jedi Knight. Fun fact, those are literally the most hunted people in the galaxy for the last twenty years. Here, have a lightsaber. It's a Jedi weapon, so this will pretty much paint a target the size of a planet on your back, and you don't even possess the skills to fight back against Vader or anyone who might hunt you down, but that's cool. Also I'm supposed to keep you secret and hidden, but eh, that's more of a guideline. I'm giving absolutely zero indication of training you or palling around with you at the moment, bytheway; the only way I would know in advanve that I'll try to get you to learn to be a Jedi is if I know R2 is going to instigate it, but I show zero recognition towards him even though he was your father's Droid who is now with the Rebellion (which bytheway they readily and openly admit to). Who I just said I was very close with.

Even more fun fact, literally none of this is actually problematic unlesd someone writes a prequel which makes, like, all of it kind of problematic."

https://i.imgflip.com/3jisda.jpg

Point is, there's nothing wrong with admitting that, yes, some things just don't make sense. The first movie was incredibly tightly written, and further movies introduced things that needed to be explained, and sometimes they really can't be explained well. Why did they not bother changing Luke's name? A Skywalker applying to the Imperial Academy would have been a bit awkward, I'd think. Why did Obi-Wan barely change his? As a Jedi, he's public enemy number one. They literally have death squads specifically tasked solely with finding and killing any remaining Jedi. Also, flashing his lightsaber in the cantina, pausing and looking around so everyone gets a good look at him with it seems like a pretty poor move. Pretending to not recognize the droids he's been very familiar with for seemingly no reason whatsoever? It's a casualty of not being able to make new things line up perfectly with old things that weren't even designed to be lined up with newer things to begin with! Like R2's rocket thrusters, which would have been pretty useful on Dagobah. That's an inconsistency. Acknowledging it doesn't hurt. The movies aren't perfect. Hell, nothing is perfect. Insisting that it is, that it lines up seamlessly, makes no sense to me. There's a visible seam, and it doesn't ruin anything for me, but I can still point it out. Like pointing out a boom mike, or that this is supposed to be in New York City but there's poutine shops everywhere and the speed limit is in kilometers, or that orphanages haven't really existed for a while and even then they weren't subject to property taxes in Cook County, or the like.

[Sapphire Guard]

I don't see it as such a stretch. Our two relevant characters are R2, which our audience and Luke doesn't understand, and Obi Wan, who has an established history of witholding important information.

What motivation would he have for hiding their connection?

Well, their connection leads to the Anakin connection, which leads to Luke asking R2 a bunch of difficult questions about Anakin, which makes the Vader thing more difficult to hide. Obi Wan and R2 then have to make sure their stories line up.

Example: Where did you last see Anakin, R2? You weren't with him when he was killed? Why not? He took you a bunch of other dangerous places. You're getting awfully shifty about this, something's up.

It comes down to basically whether you think 'how can I make this work' or 'how can I not make this work?'

[Traab]

I don't see it as such a stretch. Our two relevant characters are R2, which our audience and Luke doesn't understand, and Obi Wan, who has an established history of witholding important information.

What motivation would he have for hiding their connection?

Well, their connection leads to the Anakin connection, which leads to Luke asking R2 a bunch of difficult questions about Anakin, which makes the Vader thing more difficult to hide. Obi Wan and R2 then have to make sure their stories line up.

Example: Where did you last see Anakin, R2? You weren't with him when he was killed? Why not? He took you a bunch of other dangerous places. You're getting awfully shifty about this, something's up.

It comes down to basically whether you think 'how can I make this work' or 'how can I not make this work?'

Exactly, its hardly a complicated setup or a huge leap of headcannon when obiwan himself basically admits to lying through his teeth, "Well it WAS true, from a certain point of view" So it becomes clear with no retconning needed that he was hiding his connection to r2 to avoid luke getting a different story from the bot than he did from obiwan.

[Peelee]

I don't see it as such a stretch. Our two relevant characters are R2, which our audience and Luke doesn't understand, and Obi Wan, who has an established history of witholding important information.
What was Kenobi's eastablished history of withholding important information prior to this? If you go chronologically, there's very little. If you go by order the movies were made, there's very little.

What motivation would he have for hiding their connection?

Well, their connection leads to the Anakin connection, which leads to Luke asking R2 a bunch of difficult questions about Anakin, which makes the Vader thing more difficult to hide.
What questions would that lead to asking? Kenobi told Luke that Anakin fought in the Clone Wars, was a Jedi Knight along with Kenobi, and that they were good friends. What questions would "also this droid was his" spur on that would not already be in his head? Heck, he doesn't even have to say the droid was Anakin's. He could say he recognizes the droid(s) and leave it at that. But he doesn't, for no reason whatsoever.

ETA: Not to mention, he already knows R2's story - Obi-Wan Kenobi owns him. By denying that, right off the bat he contradicts R2's story, and they don't match up immediately. So your given reason for denying it fails to do the one thing it was supposed to do, by its very nature.

[Keltest]

Maybe he did recognize them and, since they were droids, didn't care? As I recall, he was rather dismissive of droids in general during the series, and given that theyre regularly mind wiped, in practice the droids that he knew wouldn't really have existed anymore anyway, so far as he knew.

[No brains]

We should have named part 2: You ASKED for Star Wars arguments here. It's a headcanon crossfire every time. :smalltongue:

[Lord Raziere]

What questions would that lead to asking? Kenobi told Luke that Anakin fought in the Clone Wars, was a Jedi Knight along with Kenobi, and that they were good friends. What questions would "also this droid was his" spur on that would not already be in his head? Heck, he doesn't even have to say the droid was Anakin's. He could say he recognizes the droid(s) and leave it at that. But he doesn't, for no reason whatsoever.

ETA: Not to mention, he already knows R2's story - Obi-Wan Kenobi owns him. By denying that, right off the bat he contradicts R2's story, and they don't match up immediately. So your given reason for denying it fails to do the one thing it was supposed to do, by its very nature.

Its about focus. the longer you focus on a topic, the more someone is going to ask, but if you change topics, the less chances they are going to focus on it. keep the facts short, imply that he's psychologically traumatized by father being killed (which is not far off from the truth- fighting your own apprentice and see him being seared alive by lava probably isn't the most psychologically healthy things that could happen to you). and the kid clearly understands that he doesn't want to talk about it much, could open old wounds and all that, and saying this droid belonged to him would make him want to learn from a different source that would have his hangup no matter how acted or not-acted it is.

while R2's story not matching up is a moot point given how droids are treated in Star Wars-not well. Especially given that its possible that R2-D2 could just be some glitchy malfunctioning droid sold to him by scavenging Jawas who already screwed him over with a bad droid in the first exchange and had to nag at them to get R2 to make up for it. so what R2 says probably isn't highly valued to someone used to dealing with faulty machinery that constantly needs fixing, because there is a good chance something is wrong with the droids brain.

[Saintheart]

Kenobi shows no recognition of R2 and 3PO in his hut well after saying "I don't remember ever owning a droid." He also says "now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from." From the same person who said Darth Vader was a pupil of his. That's not certain-point-of-view-ing, that's alzheimers.

In terms of headcanon, I like best the idea that Obi-Wan thinks there's something familiar about R2-D2 when they first meet, but he can't place it and just sets it to one side. There's a distinct look on Ben's face when Luke first tells the story that leaves the suggestion open.


Maybe he did recognize them and, since they were droids, didn't care? As I recall, he was rather dismissive of droids in general during the series, and given that theyre regularly mind wiped, in practice the droids that he knew wouldn't really have existed anymore anyway, so far as he knew.

He was during the film series: he'd sneer that flying was for droids, and he and Anakin have a minor spat over R2's performance in relation to the silliness in the lift; Anakin defends him, Obi-Wan pretends like he doesn't have a problem with R2. The implication being that Obi-Wan has always been a bit snooty about droids, while Anakin has a personal attachment to them.

[Imbalance]

"Hello there" is just Kenobi's way of interfacing with the command prompt. The programmed response lets him determine whether the droid is useful or something to unleash his Jedi violence upon (ie. Grievous). He remembers, he's just racist against AI machines...droidist? They've been a constant enemy his entire Jedi career, and he outwardly despises them, yet loves fighting them because he need not hold back. He slaughters droids by the dozens, but struggles against humanoid opponents and would advocate for sparing their lives. And the real tipping point in his strained relationship with Anakin? The prosthetic arm - Old Ben couldn't deal with his friend being part droid: "He's more machine than man now." He goes to the death star to commit suicide because he can. His last words to Vader are such a dig, as if to say, "you can't die even if you wanted to, robot, because you've got no soul." It's the ultimate middle finger to tinbutts everywhere.

[Peelee]

Maybe he did recognize them and, since they were droids, didn't care? As I recall, he was rather dismissive of droids in general during the series, and given that theyre regularly mind wiped, in practice the droids that he knew wouldn't really have existed anymore anyway, so far as he knew.


He was during the film series: he'd sneer that flying was for droids, and he and Anakin have a minor spat over R2's performance in relation to the silliness in the lift; Anakin defends him, Obi-Wan pretends like he doesn't have a problem with R2. The implication being that Obi-Wan has always been a bit snooty about droids, while Anakin has a personal attachment to them.
"Come here, little friend. Don't be afraid!"

The sequels and prequels changed the original. He was friendly towards droids, now he's snooty towards droids. Hell, with The Mandalorian, the titular character and a former Imperial sharpshooter both openly mock stormtrooper aim, more or less making it canon. Which also makes Kenobi's "these blast points, too accurate for sand people. Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" line not make any sense at all. Let's also note that when considering Star Wars as a standalone movie, his clothing matches up incredibly well with what we see Luke and Owen wear, while the prequels have that be the full-on uniform of the Jedi.

Each individual point can be (and has been) argued. But when all taken together, all movies and shows made after the first one - regardless of quality - turn Kenobi into not just a lying *******, but a senile lying *******. Just for example:

Original movie: *wistful music plays subtly in the background while Kenobi has a thousand-yard stare* "Obi-wan Kenobi? Obi-wan... not that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time."
Star Wars Rebels: "Oh except when I chopped down that former Sith lord like six months ago."

I loved Rebels! But everything after the original just cannot stop making Old Kenobi just a blubbering, confusing mess, pathologically lying on just about everything while he's "hiding" with a giant neon sign pointing at Tattooine practically screaming for the Empire to come check it out.

"Hello there" is just Kenobi's way of interfacing with the command prompt. The programmed response lets him determine whether the droid is useful or something to unleash his Jedi violence upon (ie. Grievous).
https://i.imgflip.com/3jyauh.jpg

[Imbalance]

@spoiler, technically a cyborg, true, but he surrounds himself with droids and to Kenobi's prejudiced eye bares no distinction.

[Peelee]

@spoiler, technically a cyborg, true, but he surrounds himself with droids and to Kenobi's prejudiced eye bares no distinction.

Ha! I just saw an opportunity to do a Janet line, and I seized it.:smallwink:

[Keltest]

I mean, maybe he mellowed out in his old age and isolation. As I recall, Padawan Obi-wan was even worse about it, calling Jar-Jar and Anakin "pathetic life forms"

And yeah, obviously he's lying to Luke, its kind of a plot point that Obi-wan (and Yoda) are pushing an agenda on him that he doesnt necessarily agree with fully. As much as theyre good characters, their way is still the way that failed to prevent the rise of the empire.

I do agree that trying to incorporate Obi-Wan and Luke into anything between RotS and ANH just makes a mess of fridge logic though just as a matter of course. I think everything about the Darth Maul arc was rather dumb, and almost certainly only came about because one of the writers was a fan who wanted a chance to play with such a cool toy.

[Peelee]

And yeah, obviously he's lying to Luke, its kind of a plot point that Obi-wan (and Yoda) are pushing an agenda on him that he doesnt necessarily agree with fully

Once the second and third movies get made, yes (though I'd argue the "doesn't necessarily agree with" part). But the first movie was made as a standalone, self-contained movie. Making Darth Vader Luke's father? That changed his character. No sequel was planned, and what happened to Luke's father flipflopped among various potions when they did decide to make a sequel. That's my point. We were presented with a character, and then followup materials fundamentally changed who that character was. It doesn't matter whether it's a TV show episode that came out a couple years ago, or the direct sequel that's older than I am. What matters is that they decided to make the character a different person than he originally was, and every continuation of the story furthers that change to the point that he's now virtually unrecognizable to the original character, and I'm just saying I dislike that.

Hell, at this point I don't know why people like Kenobi. He's an ass.

[Cazero]

I always admired KI's Fulgore's headcannon. Too bad he only brought it out as a finishing move. I presumed it was an ammunition limitation, but I have nothing to support the notion.I see what you did there. And I approve.

[Fyraltari]

Hell, at this point I don't know why people like Kenobi. He's an ass.

He's a brave, clever man with a nice sarcastic streak who set out to do what he thinks his right even if it costs him his life and despites a lot of personal tragedies never gives in to anger, resentment or depression?

[Peelee]

He's a brave, clever man with a nice sarcastic streak who set out to do what he thinks his right even if it costs him his life and despites a lot of personal tragedies never gives in to anger, resentment or depression?

He regards other people "lesser life forms," brags about his power level (seriously, the prequels might as well have had scouters and an "over nine thousand!" reference), lies his ass off at every available opportunity to a kid, and the only "clever" parts are where he's talking about how he should be smart but still somehow isn't.

Sorry, I factored the other movies into it as well.

[Keltest]

He regards other people "lesser life forms," brags about his power level (seriously, the prequels might as well have had scouters and an "over nine thousand!" reference), lies his ass off at every available opportunity to a kid, and the only "clever" parts are where he's talking about how he should be smart but still somehow isn't.

Sorry, I factored the other movies into it as well.

I mean sure, if you strip away all context he comes off looking worse that he otherwise would. That's not really a fair judgment though.

[Peelee]

I mean sure, if you strip away all context

No, I really think that every bit of context they add in is what makes it worse.

When Luke finds him and reveals the name Obi-wan, he's a shell-shocked veteran who's suddenly being confronted with the life he left behind years and years ago. Until we know that he fought Maul, what, six months before that? It's no longer someone realizing they can no longer leave their past behind them, it's now sheer manipulation. "That's a name I've not heard in a long time," bull****. You were slicing the guy who killed your Master while Luke was having his last birthday. And don't give me any "technically the words themselves were true" malarkey, because that's ignoring the context. He's not really feeling the weight of two decades rushing back to him at once, he's play-acting. When the movie came out as a standalone? He's an old man realizing his past has caught up to him. When all the rest of the material is considered? He's waiting for Luke to be old enough to weaponize him against the Empire. That's a completely different character, and one I like significantly less.

[Keltest]

No, I really think that every bit of context they add in is what makes it worse.

When Luke finds him and reveals the name Obi-wan, he's a shell-shocked veteran who's suddenly being confronted with the life he left behind years and years ago. Until we know that he fought Maul, what, six months before that? It's no longer someone realizing they can no longer leave their past behind them, it's now sheer manipulation. "That's a name I've not heard in a long time," bull****. You were slicing the guy who killed your Master while Luke was having his last birthday. And don't give me any "technically the words themselves were true" malarkey, because that's ignoring the context. He's not really feeling the weight of two decades rushing back to him at once, he's play-acting. When the movie came out as a standalone? He's an old man realizing his past has caught up to him. When all the rest of the material is considered? He's waiting for Luke to be old enough to weaponize him against the Empire. That's a completely different character, and one I like significantly less.

I don't know, I think the level of coincidence required for Obi-wan to be completely and utterly caught off guard in the original movie the way youre saying he was beggars belief. Even just with ANH, he's absolutely there specifically to watch over Luke, because he in fact tells Luke as much when he hands the lightsaber over, if not in those exact words. He even makes a few remarks to the effect that he was originally planning to have more of an influence on Luke while he was growing up, but Owen and Beru didn't want that for Luke, so he kept his distance out of respect for them.

[Fyraltari]

He regards other people "lesser life forms," brags about his power level (seriously, the prequels might as well have had scouters and an "over nine thousand!" reference), lies his ass off at every available opportunity to a kid, and the only "clever" parts are where he's talking about how he should be smart but still somehow isn't.

Hmm, no? Where is this coming from?




When Luke finds him and reveals the name Obi-wan, he's a shell-shocked veteran who's suddenly being confronted with the life he left behind years and years ago.
Baloney. At no point in Star Wars did Obi-Wan ever looked traumatized. Seriously.
He talks about Anakin wistfully, basically jumps to answer Leia's cry for help and is enthusiastic at the idea of training Luke. He's also clearly, enjoying himself while snarking at Han.

[Peelee]

I don't know, I think the level of coincidence required for Obi-wan to be completely and utterly caught off guard in the original movie the way youre saying he was beggars belief. Even just with ANH, he's absolutely there specifically to watch over Luke
In Star Wars, he's not there specifically to watch over Luke; Luke is from Tatooine, he meets a guy who was friends with his father, the obvious implication is that his father and Obi-wan are both from Tatooine, so Obi-wan is just being at home doing whatever it is he's doing. He says that Lars wouldn't allow Luke to have the lightsaber, didn't want Luke following in his father's footsteps, it all seems like he told Kenobi to get lost and not bother them (which also is pretty consistent with how he talks about Kenobi) and Kenobi did. At least until Luke sought him out.

If it was 1978 and you said "he's obviously there to specifically watch over Luke," everyone would have said "bull****," because Luke wasn't special other than being his friend's son. You're unconsciously projecting knowledge from the rest of the series into the original when you should be viewing it in a vacuum, if you want to counter my arguments about it.

Hmm, no? Where is this coming from?
The prequels.

Baloney. At no point in Star Wars did Obi-Wan ever looked traumatized. Seriously.
He talks about Anakin wistfully, basically jumps to answer Leia's cry for help and is enthusiastic at the idea of training Luke. He's also clearly, enjoying himself while snarking at Han.
Not traumatized, no, but this (https://youtu.be/1ofxFrwzDHM?t=29) is clearly him being hit with a ton of bricks. The face, the voice, the music, everything about that shot is absolutely supposed to indicate it's his old life rushing back to him in a single moment. Him embracing it after is of no consequence; if you filmed ANH after you filmed the first three episodes, and TCW, and Rebels, you would not shoot it like that because it would not make sense.

[Fyraltari]

The prequels.
Gonna need to be more specific.


Not traumatized, no, but this (https://youtu.be/1ofxFrwzDHM?t=29) is clearly him being hit with a ton of bricks.
Well, be careful what you mean, then. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock) :smallmad:

The face, the voice, the music, everything about that shot is absolutely supposed to indicate it's his old life rushing back to him in a single moment.
Well, yeah. That's not inconsistent with the other movies or Expanded universe.

Him embracing it after is of no consequence;
Wut?

if you filmed ANH after you filmed the first three episodes, and TCW, and Rebels, you would not shoot it like that because it would not make sense.
Yeah, so?

EDIT: Also, you seem to forget that it was ESB and ROTJ who introduced the whole hiding from the Empire thing as well as the point of view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOBeD1GC_Y), not the Prequels or anything later.

[Peelee]

Well, be careful what you mean, then. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock) :smallmad:
I was using hyperbole, but yeah, I could have done that better. You could say the same for the "thousand yard stare," but I simply don't know how else to put it; it's a much milder version of that, but it is vaguely remniscient of it.


EDIT: Also, you seem to forget that it was ESB and ROTJ who introduced the whole hiding from the Empire thing as well as the point of view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOBeD1GC_Y), not the Prequels or anything later.

Never said it was only the prequels; in fact, I specifically included the sequels (not the sequel trilogy, I mean Eps. 5 and 6) as well. "Standalone" is not "original trilogy," it's "just that one movie."

[Fyraltari]

I was using hyperbole, but yeah, I could have done that better. You could say the same for the "thousand yard stare," but I simply don't know how else to put it; it's a much milder version of that, but it is vaguely remniscient of it.
People using conditions as hyperbole is a pet peeve of mine.
I thought a thousand-yard stare meant being lost in a memory/thought.




Never said it was only the prequels; in fact, I specifically included the sequels (not the sequel trilogy, I mean Eps. 5 and 6) as well. "Standalone" is not "original trilogy," it's "just that one movie."
You said that the other movies changed his character (which I dont' dispute, by the way) but right then you were saying it was the prequels and the animated shows that made this scene "nonsensical". But by the very nature of the reveals of the other movies that scene is changed.

[Traab]

Once the second and third movies get made, yes (though I'd argue the "doesn't necessarily agree with" part). But the first movie was made as a standalone, self-contained movie. Making Darth Vader Luke's father? That changed his character. No sequel was planned, and what happened to Luke's father flipflopped among various potions when they did decide to make a sequel. That's my point. We were presented with a character, and then followup materials fundamentally changed who that character was. It doesn't matter whether it's a TV show episode that came out a couple years ago, or the direct sequel that's older than I am. What matters is that they decided to make the character a different person than he originally was, and every continuation of the story furthers that change to the point that he's now virtually unrecognizable to the original character, and I'm just saying I dislike that.

Hell, at this point I don't know why people like Kenobi. He's an ass.

One of the alternate takes of the i am your father line was, "OBIWAN killed your father!" Now, maybe it was just something they threw together as a random red herring, but maybe it was also an idea for a path the story could have taken and frankly, its an interesting one. It could even work with both the certain point of view and the prequels. "Ok luke, that was sort of hyperbole, I mean, yeah, im anakin skywalker, or at least i was, but the man who fathered you died metaphorically on a lava soaked planet at the hands of his teacher obiwan who chopped 75% of his limbs off. Only Darth Vader remains. So from a certain point of view he did kill me." And now luke is ticked at both sides of the conflict because not one of them is willing to just give him straight truth. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

In Star Wars, he's not there specifically to watch over Luke; Luke is from Tatooine, he meets a guy who was friends with his father, the obvious implication is that his father and Obi-wan are both from Tatooine, so Obi-wan is just being at home doing whatever it is he's doing. He says that Lars wouldn't allow Luke to have the lightsaber, didn't want Luke following in his father's footsteps, it all seems like he told Kenobi to get lost and not bother them (which also is pretty consistent with how he talks about Kenobi) and Kenobi did. At least until Luke sought him out.

If it was 1978 and you said "he's obviously there to specifically watch over Luke," everyone would have said "bull****," because Luke wasn't special other than being his friend's son. You're unconsciously projecting knowledge from the rest of the series into the original when you should be viewing it in a vacuum, if you want to counter my arguments about it.

Obi-wan specifically has items that he was holding on for the sake of giving them to Luke one day. There really is no other way to interpret that other than that he specifically has an interest in Luke, personally. The fact that they were given to Obi-wan, rather than Owen, does have some implications, but "Obi-wan is there entirely by coincidence and is caught entirely off guard by his old life coming back to him" is not one of them.

Furthermore, "in my experience theres no such thing as luck." These are not the words of a man who believes he is being dragged along by events outside of his control or expectations.

[Fyraltari]

Furthermore, "in my experience theres no such thing as luck." These are not the words of a man who believes he is being dragged along by events outside of his control or expectations.

I mean, it is, he just attributes those events to the will of a higher power rather than random chance.

[Keltest]

I mean, it is, he just attributes those events to the will of a higher power rather than random chance.

That's not how he describes The Force to Luke though. They still have free will and can exert their own influence over it. Just as an example, he very visibly lets Vader kill him. He made the choice. He could have tried to escape with Luke and the others, but chose not to.

[Fyraltari]

That's not how he describes The Force to Luke though. They still have free will and can exert their own influence over it. Just as an example, he very visibly lets Vader kill him. He made the choice. He could have tried to escape with Luke and the others, but chose not to.

That does not contradict what I said, though. I think the accepted term is "in mysterious ways" (I'll leave that there, though).

EDIT: He even says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h19yG1DXI2o&t=105) that one can command the Force but must also let it guide himself.

[Keltest]

That does not contradict what I said, though. I think the accepted term is "in mysterious ways" (I'll leave that there, though).

EDIT: He even say (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h19yG1DXI2o&t=105)s that one can command the Force but must also let it guide himself.

Let me rephrase. Obi-wan knows exactly what he is doing. He's as much in control of the situation as he conceivably could be.

[Peelee]

People using conditions as hyperbole is a pet peeve of mine.
Totally understandable; like I said, I could have done better on that.

I thought a thousand-yard stare meant being lost in a memory/thought.
Same, I actually didn't even know until I looked it up after you called me out on the other one (which is also why I kind of scrambled to justify it at that point.:smallredface:)

You said that the other movies changed his character (which I dont' dispute, by the way) but right then you were saying it was the prequels and the animated shows that made this scene "nonsensical". But by the very nature of the reveals of the other movies that scene is changed.
Hey, I'll never complain about things I left out strengthening my argument (which, in this case, is "follow-up content changed the character").:smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

Let me rephrase. Obi-wan knows exactly what he is doing. He's as much in control of the situation as he conceivably could be.
Oh yes, definitely.

Totally understandable; like I said, I could have done better on that.

Same, I actually didn't even know until I looked it up after you called me out on the other one (which is also why I kind of scrambled to justify it at that point.:smallredface:)
Right, moving on...


Hey, I'll never complain about things I left out strengthening my argument (which, in this case, is "follow-up content changed the character").:smallwink:
Was that in question? Because I thought your position was "follow up movies made the character worse".

[Peelee]

Was that in question? Because I thought your position was "follow up movies made the character worse".

It might have been, and if so, I'd like to change that to "and I don't like that."

Obi-wan specifically has items that he was holding on for the sake of giving them to Luke one day. There really is no other way to interpret that other than that he specifically has an interest in Luke, personally.

Sure there is. For example: "Oh no, I, Ben Kenobi, have an item Luke's father wanted him to have, but his uncle does not want him to have! Guess I just can't give it to him then, shame. Oh, why hello Luke, fancy you coming to see me. Since you're here, I have something for you, which you otherwise would never have gotten!"

[Fyraltari]

It might have been, and if so, I'd like to change that to "and I don't like that."
Well, then :

1) And I don't like that is kind of implicit in "worse" as that is inherently a judgement call and

2) I disagree. Now what?

[Peelee]

Well, then :

1) And I don't like that is kind of implicit in "worse" as that is inherently a judgement call
Indeed, which is why I wanted to move more towards that, since I'm saying "this is my judgement."

2) I disagree. Now what?
Eh, you're allowed to be wrong.:smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Indeed, which is why I wanted to move more towards that, since I'm saying "this is my judgement."

Eh, you're allowed to be wrong.:smalltongue:

https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/1/1/ed3aa1f49e3d89d5fdf383917aaf60d73e62159d6149d842de 335fd72f8d7c/ugsy0yvdaay31.png?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fugsy 0yvdaay31.png&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=1

[Keltest]

Sure there is. For example: "Oh no, I, Ben Kenobi, have an item Luke's father wanted him to have, but his uncle does not want him to have! Guess I just can't give it to him then, shame. Oh, why hello Luke, fancy you coming to see me. Since you're here, I have something for you, which you otherwise would never have gotten!"

That would require Obi-wan to be at least mildly insane though, if he legitimately believes that he cant give something to Luke at Luke's home but can at his own home. He either thinks its OK to go around Owen or he doesn't.

Besides which, he specifically gives it to Luke so that Luke can learn the ways of a Jedi Knight, with the intention that Luke accompany him to Alderaan. He's deliberately trying to get Luke involved.

[Peelee]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/031/856/ig11.jpg

[Peelee]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/031/856/ig11.jpg


That would require Obi-wan to be at least mildly insane though, if he legitimately believes that he cant give something to Luke at Luke's home but can at his own home.

If my sister doesn't want me to give my nephew pizza, despite my newphew loving pizza, solely because she doesn't like pizza, then whenever i go to their house I'm not going to give him pizza. If he comes to me, though, I'm gonna slip him a slice of pepperoni.

That's not insane, that's normal human interaction. Again, you're seeing it in the eyes of Kenobi trying to watch over Luke as his entire reason for existence, so it was vital to give him the lightsaber, and thinking he couldn't at Luke's house is thus insane. Stop thinking like that. Kenobi is just a hermit that knew his dad. It's winter of 1977, no other Star Wars media exists, that's a normal human reaction.

[Fyraltari]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/031/856/ig11.jpg

https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/700x0/5/1/13d6302d5685c7f30be25b9bfe329ca3a0713a996dbe398a21 c033765c4c60/Mandalorian-This-Is-The-Way-Quote.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.srcdn.com%2Fword press%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F11%2FMandalorian-This-Is-The-Way-Quote.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=1

Edit: Also I assume you didn't mean to quote yourself there, did you?

[Keltest]

If my sister doesn't want me to give my nephew pizza, despite my newphew loving pizza, solely because she doesn't like pizza, then whenever i go to their house I'm not going to give him pizza. If he comes to me, though, I'm gonna slip him a slice of pepperoni.

That's not insane, that's normal human interaction.

I mean, to a point Ok, but if you then give him the number for the pizza place and a credit card to pay for it with, that's a step beyond slipping him a slice of pizza when your sister isn't looking. Once luke has the lightsaber, he has the lightsaber, and its obvious that Obi-wan gave it to him, being the only person who has one to give. Where it happens doesn't really factor into this unless youre suggesting that Obi-wan was being chased off the property by Owen running after him with a pitchfork.

[Peelee]

I mean, to a point Ok, but if you then give him the number for the pizza place and a credit card to pay for it with, that's a step beyond slipping him a slice of pizza when your sister isn't looking. Once luke has the lightsaber, he has the lightsaber, and its obvious that Obi-wan gave it to him, being the only person who has one to give. Where it happens doesn't really factor into this unless youre suggesting that Obi-wan was being chased off the property by Owen running after him with a pitchfork.

That's called a "Luke problem." If he wants to keep it, it's on him.

Again. Normal human interaction.

ETA: Especially where Luke is 18 and probably going to move out soon.

[Keltest]

That's called a "Luke problem." If he wants to keep it, it's on him.

Again. Normal human interaction.

Not really? "Here, have a live grenade. If you choose to not get rid of it, that's a you problem." To say nothing of the fact that Obi-wan shortly followed it up with "you must learn the ways of a Jedi Knight, if you are to come with me to Alderaan."

He's explicitly looking to train Luke and have him join on the adventure. That's several steps beyond "hey, I have this thing for you but never had the chance to give it to you."

Also, Luke didn't know he wasn't supposed to have it until that moment. If Owne finds out, he's coming after Obi-wan, not Luke.

[Peelee]

Not really? "Here, have a live grenade. If you choose to not get rid of it, that's a you problem."

That's a bit loaded. More like, "here, have the military sword your father carried."

Note how he gave Luke the saber before knowing anything about the mission, or the droid. The droid, at this point, he's never seen in his life. He has no reason to think he'll be called to join the Rebellion, or to leave the planet. He knows, "hey, mystery droid. Hey Luke, while I have you, here's this keepsake your uncle wouldn't let me give you." Kenobi doesn't do a damn thing about trying to recruit Luke until there's a mission against the Empire. Before that? For all he knows, the droid is a remnant from Anakin, sent off before he died, and only now managed to make its way to Kenobi.

Stop thinking about it with context from anything other than that one movie. You keep bringing up arguments that only work in the context of "we know he's there to train Luke when he's old enough," and that keeps not working, because this specific argument is in the context of the first movie as a standalone, with no other Star Wars media existing.

Also, Luke didn't know he wasn't supposed to have it until that moment. If Owne finds out, he's coming after Obi-wan, not Luke.
To do.... what, exactly?

[Rodin]

We should have named part 2: You ASKED for Star Wars arguments here. It's a headcanon crossfire every time. :smalltongue:

*breathing noise*

I have altered the thread topic. Pray I do not alter it any further.

*breathing noise*

[Sapphire Guard]

I mean, it's one hell of a coincidence if one of the last survivors of the Jedi order just happens to be one of Luke's neighbours, if he's not there because of Luke.

I think there was always meant to be something Obi wasn't telling, based on his reaction. Possibly George hadn't decided what that was yet.

[Peelee]

I mean, it's one hell of a coincidence if one of the last survivors of the Jedi order just happens to be one of Luke's neighbours, if he's not there because of Luke.

Is it one hell of a coincidence that Luke's father's friend lives near Luke (and, presumably, where Luke's father would have lived)? Or is that, yet again, kind of how normal human interaction works?

Also, "near" and "neighbor" in this case being pretty subjective, since they had to drive pretty far out to find R2.

[Sapphire Guard]

When he happens to be one of the only survivors of the Jedi, a galaxy spanning organisation? Yes.

[Peelee]

When he happens to be one of the only survivors of the Jedi, a galaxy spanning organisation? Yes.

Why? Remember, only the first movie. It's very easy to imagine that Obi Wan and Anakin were both from there, so it makes sense for Obi Wan to go hide there and for Luke to be born there. Also, there's no "some people have the Force and some don't" hootinany (which I love, and my biggest issue with the following movies is restricting that to a genetic lottery). There's no indication whatsoever that learning to use the Force is restrictive. It's no different from a martial arts master telling his friends son he will train him in kung fu as they travel to the Jade City. Luke's not special because of who his dad was, he's not special at all, and it's no grand coincidence that he lives in rural Space Vermont and Kenobi lives in rural Space New Hampshire.

[Sapphire Guard]

Who is also the only survivor of the old Jedi, and the one with a personal relationship with Darth Vader?

[Peelee]

Who is also the only survivor of the old Jedi, and the one with a personal relationship with Darth Vader?

...yeah? What's the coincidence? Luke goes on the journey because he lives close to Kenobi. If Kenobi didn't live relatively close (relatively, again, being key here. Luke traveled a ways before finding him), then Kenobi would have gone to Alderaan without Luke. I'm still not seeing the massive coincidence here.

[Sapphire Guard]

Most of the Jedi were killed prior to A New Hope. The only one to survive happens to live relatively close to Luke and be the one who personally taught DV?

[Peelee]

Most of the Jedi were killed prior to A New Hope. The only one to survive happens to live relatively close to Luke and be the one who personally taught DV?

Again, why is this a coincidence? Luke is unimportant in the beginning of the movie. He becomes important because he lives near Kenobi and joins up with him. That's not a coincidence, that's basic narrative storytelling. It's like complaining about it being such a big coincidence that Frodo just happened to live in the same house as the one person in the entire middle-world who had the One Ring and had a personal connection with a powerful wizard.

[Keltest]

Again, why is this a coincidence? Luke is unimportant in the beginning of the movie. He becomes important because he lives near Kenobi and joins up with him. That's not a coincidence, that's basic narrative storytelling. It's like complaining about it being such a big coincidence that Frodo just happened to live in the same house as the one person in the entire middle-world who had the One Ring and had a personal connection with a powerful wizard.

If Luke was unimportant, than Obi-wan would have shrugged, said "ok, i'll find some other young enthusiastic partner for this quest" and then gone on his way when Luke declined to accompany him, instead of trying to persuade him that he needs Luke, specifically for this.

Also, Obi-wan is apparently familiar enough with Luke to immediately train him as a Jedi, and yet Luke doesn't even know Obi-wan's real name. Ben has clearly been watching Luke.

[Peelee]

If Luke was unimportant, than Obi-wan would have shrugged, said "ok, i'll find some other young enthusiastic partner for this quest" and then gone on his way when Luke declined to accompany him, instead of trying to persuade him that he needs Luke, specifically for this.
[citation needed]

Using only information in Star Wars, please demonstrate to me how he needs Luke, specifically, for this.

Also, Obi-wan is apparently familiar enough with Luke to immediately train him as a Jedi
[citation needed]

Using only information in Star Wars, please demonstrate to me how much familiarity Kenobi needs with Luke to train him as a Jedi.

[Keltest]

[citation needed]

Using only information in Star Wars, please demonstrate to me how he needs Luke, specifically, for this.

[citation needed]

Using only information in Star Wars, please demonstrate to me how much familiarity Kenobi needs with Luke to train him as a Jedi.

"I need your help Luke"
-Obi-wan.

Like, he literally says it verbatim.

In the sense that he theoretically doesn't actually need literally Luke, specifically, under the constraints that you've spelled out, yes, that's absolutely the point im trying to make. He could have asked and/or hired pretty much anybody, but he insisted on Luke.

Likewise, he doesn't literally "need" a certain level of familiarity with a given subject, but since its literally his religion (as described in ANH, about the Jedi) it follows that he would take it seriously.

[Peelee]

"I need your help Luke"
-Obi-wan.

Like, he literally says it verbatim.
"I'm getting too old for this sort of thing," he literally says two seconds later, to the kid who came to find him. Sounds like he needs someone else, anyone else, not Luke specifically, and Luke happens to be there.

In the sense that he theoretically doesn't actually need literally Luke, specifically, under the constraints that you've spelled out, yes, that's absolutely the point im trying to make. He could have asked and/or hired pretty much anybody, but he insisted on Luke.
Because Luke was there. If that's the point you're trying to make, it's a bad point. Luke was available. Done. I don't see anyone else in Kenobi's HOA that he could go to. And, let's not forget, dude didn't even have a car. They used Luke's speeder to get anywhere.

Kenobi needed two things. Youth and a speeder. Luke just happened to fulfill those two conditions and also be in Ben's living room at the time.

Likewise, he doesn't literally "need" a certain level of familiarity with a given subject, but since its literally his religion (as described in ANH, about the Jedi) it follows that he would take it seriously.
Han calls it a religion. Han also displays great unfamiliarity with it. Luke doesn't even know a single thing about it until Kenobi tells him. So no, I'm not buying this "great familiarity with Luke" argument,

[Keltest]

"I'm getting too old for this sort of thing," he literally says two seconds later, to the kid who came to find him. Sounds like he needs someone else, anyone else, not Luke specifically, and Luke happens to be there.

Because Luke was there. If that's the point you're trying to make, it's a bad point. Luke was available. Done. I don't see anyone else in Kenobi's HOA that he could go to. And, let's not forget, dude didn't even have a car. They used Luke's speeder to get anywhere.

Kenobi needed two things. Youth and a speeder. Luke just happened to fulfill those two conditions and also be in Ben's living room at the time.

Han calls it a religion. Han also displays great unfamiliarity with it. Luke doesn't even know a single thing about it until Kenobi tells him. So no, I'm not buying this "great familiarity with Luke" argument,

The imperial officer on the Death Star whose name I don't know whose name you likely know also refers to it as a religion.

Anyway, Obi-wan is, at the very least planning to assist the rebellion. You pretty definitionally need to know more about somebody than the fact that they have a car theyre willing to lend you before you start including them on that quest. And yet its literally the very first thing he does after hearing Leia's message.

and, re-watching these scenes, im wondering how in the heck Luke and Obi-wan ended up at the broken sandcrawler when Luke was supposedly driving Obi-wan to a town nearby.

[Peelee]

The imperial officer on the Death Star whose name I don't know whose name you likely know also refers to it as a religion.
Oh, right, Motti. True.

But again, Luke didn't know the existence of it. If I told you about the First Amalgamated Church and then said I need to train you to be a warrior for it three minutes later because I'm too old to go running on missions, would that sound like I've known you for some time? Or would that sound like desperation?

Anyway, Obi-wan is, at the very least planning to assist the rebellion. You pretty definitionally need to know more about somebody than the fact that they have a car theyre willing to lend you before you start including them on that quest. And yet its literally the very first thing he does after hearing Leia's message.
Cool, so let's go over what we know about Luke up to this point:


He wants to join the Imperial academy.

Why, he's perfect!

Oh, wait. No. That other thing. Desperation.

[Keltest]

Oh, right, Motti. True.

But again, Luke didn't know the existence of it. If I told you about the First Amalgamated Church and then said I need to train you to be a warrior for it three minutes later because I'm too old to go running on missions, would that sound like I've known you for some time? Or would that sound like desperation?

Cool, so let's go over what we know about Luke up to this point:


He wants to join the Imperial academy.

Why, he's perfect!

Oh, wait. No. That other thing. Desperation.
He cant be that desperate, because when Luke offers to help him find somebody else, his response is disappointment and not relief that some progress is at least being made.

And Owen was specifically trying to keep Luke isolated from The Force and Jedi things, per Obi-wan, who had made attempts in the past to reach out to Luke that were blocked by Owen (again, from his own dialogue in this scene).

[Peelee]

He cant be that desperate, because when Luke offers to help him find somebody else, his response is disappointment and not relief that some progress is at least being made.
Luke didn't offer to help him find someone else. Luke offered him a ride to a place that, presumably, does not have a starport. "Look, I can get you as far as Anchorhead, from there you can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going." It's entirely about the ride. Kenobi is disappointed because, shocker, he's getting too old for this sort of thing. If he can't convince Luke, the guy who's dad turned out to be a Jedi and who he gave a lightsaber to, who can he convince? Also, and this is a bit of a sticky wicket, Kenobi agrees that if he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to. For a guy who's entire job is to train Luke in the Force, whose sole reason for being on Tatooine is to be close to Luke, to just give up right as he's about to leave the damned planet for the rebellion, that seems.... well, like that's not actually his job.

Almost as if that was never intended and was shoehorned in later on, even!

And Owen was specifically trying to keep Luke isolated from The Force and Jedi things, per Obi-wan, who had made attempts in the past to reach out to Luke that were blocked by Owen (again, from his own dialogue in this scene).
...and? If I block my kid from ever knowing about elephants, and he turns 18 and some guy he meets says "hey there are these enormous beasts, you must come with me if you're to learn to be an Elephant Master, I'm getting too old to go on the secret golden hunts," do you think that's because the guy was watching my kid for years and years and just waiting for his chance to get him into Elephant Mastery? Or does it sound like desperation (and a little crazy, but hey, let's say that he has an Elephant Master's golden harness so the the craziness isn't so crazy)?

[Keltest]

Luke didn't offer to help him find someone else. Luke offered him a ride to a place that, presumably, does not have a starport. "Look, I can get you as far as Anchorhead, from there you can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going." It's entirely about the ride. Kenobi is disappointed because, shocker, he's getting too old for this sort of thing. If he can't convince Luke, the guy who's dad turned out to be a Jedi and who he gave a lightsaber to, who can he convince? Also, and this is a bit of a sticky wicket, Kenobi agrees that if he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to. For a guy who's entire job is to train Luke in the Force, whose sole reason for being on Tatooine is to be close to Luke, to just give up right as he's about to leave the damned planet for the rebellion, that seems.... well, like that's not actually his job.

Almost as if that was never intended and was shoehorned in later on, even!

...and? If I block my kid from ever knowing about elephants, and he turns 18 and some guy he meets says "hey there are these enormous beasts, you must come with me if you're to learn to be an Elephant Master, I'm getting too old to go on the secret golden hunts," do you think that's because the guy was watching my kid for years and years and just waiting for his chance to get him into Elephant Mastery? Or does it sound like desperation (and a little crazy, but hey, let's say that he has an Elephant Master's golden harness so the the craziness isn't so crazy)?
Honestly? It seems to me youre struggling to keep your position straight. Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that he knows his family, and that he wanted to interact with him more but was forbidden by Owen. Earlier you were trying to convince us that it wasn't at all coincidental that Obi-wan lived nearby, since he was friends with Luke's father, even though theres no indication that Luke's father ever actually lived in that area. Now Luke is literally just a complete random person to Obi-wan? You cant really have it both ways. Either the family is important to Obi-wan or it isn't.

[Peelee]

Honestly? It seems to me youre struggling to keep your position straight. Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that he knows his family, and that he wanted to interact with him more but was forbidden by Owen. Earlier you were trying to convince us that it wasn't at all coincidental that Obi-wan lived nearby, since he was friends with Luke's father, even though theres no indication that Luke's father ever actually lived in that area. Now Luke is literally just a complete random person to Obi-wan? You cant really have it both ways. Either the family is important to Obi-wan or it isn't.

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that Luke is a complete random person to Obi-wan. I said that he does not need Luke and only Luke, as you have claimed. Luke is the one who happens to be there, just as Frodo is the one who happens to inherit the One Ring. Gandalf did not stalk Frodo, constantly watching him, waiting and biding his time, for Frodo and only Frodo was the one Hobbit who could take the Ring to Mordor. He just got caught up in it because he was Bilbo's nephew, Bilbo had the Ring, and Bilbo left it to him. Similarly, in Star Wars, Luke was not the son of The Chosen One destined to bring balance to the Force, super strong in his bloodline through midichlorians, such that he was the one and only person on Tatooine - nay, the Galaxy - that Obi-wan could have trained in the Force and taken on his trip to rescue the princess. Luke just got caught up in it because his dad was friends with Kenobi, Kenobi had a lightsaber for him, and he was present when Kenobi had to book it.

[Keltest]

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that Luke is a complete random person to Obi-wan. I said that he does not need Luke and only Luke, as you have claimed. Luke is the one who happens to be there, just as Frodo is the one who happens to inherit the One Ring. Gandalf did not stalk Frodo, constantly watching him, waiting and biding his time, for Frodo and only Frodo was the one Hobbit who could take the Ring to Mordor. He just got caught up in it because he was Bilbo's nephew, Bilbo had the Ring, and Bilbo left it to him. Similarly, in Star Wars, Luke was not the son of The Chosen One destined to bring balance to the Force, super strong in his bloodline through midichlorians, such that he was the one and only person on Tatooine - nay, the Galaxy - that Obi-wan could have trained in the Force and taken on his trip to rescue the princess. Luke just got caught up in it because his dad was friends with Kenobi, Kenobi had a lightsaber for him, and he was present when Kenobi had to book it.

Need? No. Want? Yes. Like, I don't think its that unreasonable to think that Kenobi has an attachment of some kind to Luke, especially given the, you know, explicit attachments he has to Luke's father.

[Peelee]

Need? No.

he needs Luke, specifically for this.
Imean yes, I did edit that part down a bit, but it is an accurate representation of what you were saying there. Which is the opposite of what you're saying now.

Want? Yes. Like, I don't think its that unreasonable to think that Kenobi has an attachment of some kind to Luke, especially given the, you know, explicit attachments he has to Luke's father.
..yes? I never argued against that, and in fact have openly acknowledged it:
If he can't convince Luke, the guy who's dad turned out to be a Jedi and who he gave a lightsaber to, who can he convince?
I'm not sure how that helps your argument of "Kenobi was there specifically to watch over Luke because he needed to train Luke and only Luke, and this is apparent in that movie as a standalone."

[Keltest]

Imean yes, I did edit that part down a bit, but it is an accurate representation of what you were saying there. Which is the opposite of what you're saying now.

..yes? I never argued against that, and in fact have openly acknowledged it:
I'm not sure how that helps your argument of "Kenobi was there specifically to watch over Luke because he needed to train Luke and only Luke, and this is apparent in that movie as a standalone."

My argument has never been that specific, only that there is a clear connection between Luke and Obi-wan which Ben himself considers significant. That connection also involves the fact that Luke is the son of Obi-wan's friend. Obi-wan may not have planned the specific events that occurred, but he makes it pretty clear that he was living around Luke for a reason, and not just coincidentally.

[Peelee]

My argument has never been that specific, only that there is a clear connection between Luke and Obi-wan which Ben himself considers significant.


Even just with ANH, he's absolutely there specifically to watch over Luke

I mean....

[Traab]

Im not so sure about your frodo analogy, its been awhile since I read the books, but doesnt gandalf push bilbo really freaking hard to leave the ring to frodo specifically? Its not just, "You have to leave the ring behind because its turning you into gollums temporarily handsomer cousin" Its, "You agreed to leave everything to frodo and that includes the ring, so leave the ring to frodo!" Considering gandlaf had such a long interest in both the shire and bilbos family, its hard to deny that there might have been a plan there. Gandalf plays a very long game against the forces of evil.

[Imbalance]

I thought this thread was about headcanon...

[Lord Raziere]

I thought this thread was about headcanon...

Agreed, lets rerail this thread with my headcanon about the One Piece:

The One Piece, is a single coin. Not just any coin, but a special coin, and it has special symbolism. See, it is variation on the phrase, Pieces of Eight. Pieces of Eight being an informal way of dividing up coins as currency in the age of piracy. Now why would one single coin be so important in this pirate world, why would it be so great and valuable, that you become the King of ALL pirates once you get it and be so powerful that no one can stand against you? Well the answer is, is that its not a coin you can spend, at least not in the usual sense. Its price is invaluable, and no one in the world could give you a figure for its true worth, why? because no one owns enough of anything to equal what the One Piece gives you.

The One Piece when properly used, gives you the most valuable thing in the world: The World itself, for all the world is the only thing that equals it in value.

For what could be a more valuable treasure than everything that ever existed? and why else would you call it the One Piece, when no one owns enough to equal that one piece? everyone else just owns pieces of the world, dividing up the planet into various pieces of this and that, just like a pieces of eight on a grand scale, fighting over these pieces for their own gain, whether its navy or pirate. To own the One Piece is to own the world and therefore be its undisputed ruler in some manner. For all the world owned by one person, is for the world to be united: One World, One People, One Ruler, One Whole Piece. A planet after all, looks a coin from space.

The Pirate King is therefore the king of the world. What more could a greedy pirate possibly want after all? For One Piece is most probably something that give access to a weapon that grants the entire world as one's dominion and therefore able to threaten anyone to give them anything they want. That is what the One Piece means: the treasure that leads to one united world under the person who finds it. This not only makes sense with the pirate logic I just said, but it also makes sense following other shonen series logic of protagonists uniting opposing viewpoints and factions into a more harmonious whole from a war-torn world, which given that Luffy is gathering a larger and larger crew, seems to be the route he is going towards.

[Keltest]

I mean....

Youre implicitly attaching "to train him as a Jedi because its his Space Destiny" there when it isn't in the quote. Heck, earlier you were even saying it made sense for him to be there living near the family of his friend because that's just a normal human thing to do.

But sure, if somebody wants to make a new Star Wars thread for talking about Obi-wan, i'll gladly switch over to that.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's GITP. Every thread inevitably takes a hard right into Star Wars arguments.

[Peelee]

Youre implicitly attaching "to train him as a Jedi because its his Space Destiny" there when it isn't in the quote.


No, that was in the other quote right above, where you explicitly said "Kenobi needs Luke specifically" about training him as a Jedi. You said both things, I pointed out you said both things, you then denied having been that specific, so I quoted you saying both things. That you didn't say them in the same breath is irrelevant.

Kenobi was there specifically to watch over Luke on the same way that Gandalf was there to specifically watch over Frodo. Which is to say, not at all from what you see in the original content.

Also, I'll cop to the gandalf/Frodo analogy not being perfect, but it's massively famous and close enough.

[Keltest]

No, that was in the other quote right above, where you explicitly said "Kenobi needs Luke specifically" about training him as a Jedi. You said both things, I pointed out you said both things, you then denied having been that specific, so I quoted you saying both things. That you didn't say them in the same breath is irrelevant.

Kenobi was there specifically to watch over Luke on the same way that Gandalf was there to specifically watch over Frodo. Which is to say, not at all from what you see in the original content.

Also, I'll cop to the gandalf/Frodo analogy not being perfect, but it's massively famous and close enough.

*rubs temples*

Ok, I don't think im explaining myself very well here. I can totally see why youre coming away with the impression that you are, but that's not what im trying to say.

Obi-wan explicitly has an interest in Luke. He says as much, so I think we can agree on that, right? He intended/desires to pass on the legacy of Luke's father down to Luke, but Owen didn't want that, so it didn't happen. Subsequent works change the specific details of what that legacy is, but in broad strokes Obi-wan was always sitting there, ready to hand off the lightsaber and knowledge of his father's identity to Luke when the opportunity arose.

What im trying to say is that Luke is special - to Obi-wan. He isn't necessarily marked by some magic destiny that Obi-wan could smell because he's a jedi who lived over 40, but he is special for entirely personal reasons to Obi-wan that are still fundamentally about Luke in particular. From the perspective of whether anybody else could technically perform the same actions, Luke isn't special, but from the perspective of what the character cares about, Luke is very special.

Does that help clarify my stance? He could have asked any other random farm boy for help, but he wouldn't have asked any other random farm boy for help.

[Imbalance]

https://youtu.be/vDtaun_cUAY

[Peelee]

*rubs temples*

Ok, I don't think im explaining myself very well here. I can totally see why youre coming away with the impression that you are, but that's not what im trying to say.

Obi-wan explicitly has an interest in Luke. He says as much, so I think we can agree on that, right? He intended/desires to pass on the legacy of Luke's father down to Luke, but Owen didn't want that, so it didn't happen. Subsequent works change the specific details of what that legacy is, but in broad strokes Obi-wan was always sitting there, ready to hand off the lightsaber and knowledge of his father's identity to Luke when the opportunity arose.

What im trying to say is that Luke is special - to Obi-wan. He isn't necessarily marked by some magic destiny that Obi-wan could smell because he's a jedi who lived over 40, but he is special for entirely personal reasons to Obi-wan that are still fundamentally about Luke in particular. From the perspective of whether anybody else could technically perform the same actions, Luke isn't special, but from the perspective of what the character cares about, Luke is very special.

Does that help clarify my stance?
Yeah, I can perfectly agree with all of that.

He could have asked any other random farm boy for help, but he wouldn't have asked any other random farm boy for help.
NOPE. If Bob had bought the droids first, then did exactly what Luke did and found Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan wouldn't have tried to get Bob to help? The Empire is still out there, Kenobi is still getting too old for this sort of thing, but it wasn't Luke so oh well? If Samwise had been the one to get the Ring instead of Frodo, do you think the Council of Elrond would still be going on until the armies of Sauron marched right up to them?

Sure, if it were Han, it probably wouldn't have happened because he's dismissive of the whole thing to begin with. But any blank slate farmboy that brought Obi-Wan a message of "we need you back in the action and now" would have probably done the trick. Unless you want to argue that Kenobi would have gone to the Skywalker ranch, pushed the Lars family out of the way, and then grabbed Luke again, or something.

You just jumped straight back to "he needs Luke and only Luke."

[Keltest]

Yeah, I can perfectly agree with all of that.

NOPE. If Bob had bought the droids first, then did exactly what Luke did and found Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan wouldn't have tried to get Bob to help? The Empire is still out there, Kenobi is still getting too old for this sort of thing, but it wasn't Luke so oh well? If Samwise had been the one to get the Ring instead of Frodo, do you think the Council of Elrond would still be going on until the armies of Sauron marched right up to them?

Sure, if it were Han, it probably wouldn't have happened because he's dismissive of the whole thing to begin with. But any blank slate farmboy that brought Obi-Wan a message of "we need you back in the action and now" would have probably done the trick. Unless you want to argue that Kenobi would have gone to the Skywalker ranch, pushed the Lars family out of the way, and then grabbed Luke again, or something.

You just jumped straight back to "he needs Luke and only Luke."

He WANTS Luke and only Luke. If Luke was, I don't know, sick with the Space Flu and was set to be bedridden for the next month, Obi-wan might have sucked it up and gone alone or taken Bob, because these things clearly aren't going to wait for Luke to get better. But between Owen's actions and Kenobi's own comments, there is clearly a theme of Ben being there in the background, ready to introduce Luke to adventure. This is, in fact, specifically called out as one of Owen's concerns, that Luke would follow Ben on a "Damn-fool idealistic crusade like [his] father".

In other words, I think if it had been Bob who bought R2 and was tricked into removing his restraining bolt, then followed him to Ben's house, Ben would have gone "darn, I had hoped to do this under better circumstances, but it looks like things are happening. I better go settle this stuff with Luke."

And yes, I think if Frodo had drowned in the River Brandywine or something on the way to Rivendell and Sam had to carry the Ring, then none of the hobbits would have gone on to be part of the Fellowship. Bilbo and Frodo are both called out as being rather odd by the standards of the hobbits (and Pippin, in as much as he is a Took and theyre all oddballs, but Pippin is still considered to be a child by hobbit reckoning, and Elrond specifically didn't want him going because of that).

[Peelee]

He WANTS Luke and only Luke.

No. With the sequels where the Force is a divine right kind of thing, yes, and with the prequels where he's specifically there to monitor and protect Luke, yes. With only Star Wars, no. Luke is his friend's son, and he has mementos for Luke, but there is no indication he ever planned to train Luke, or tell Luke about his legacy, or even leave Luke the lightsaber in his will after he died. The only reason he gives Luke the information and saber are because Luke goes out to seek him, and the only reason he wants to train Luke is because he's needed on an important mission and can't do it himself. See Bob.

[Keltest]

No. With the sequels where the Force is a divine right kind of thing, yes, and with the prequels where he's specifically there to monitor and protect Luke, yes. With only Star Wars, no. Luke is his friend's son, and he has mementos for Luke, but there is no indication he ever planned to train Luke, or tell Luke about his legacy, or even leave Luke the lightsaber in his will after he died. The only reason he gives Luke the information and saber are because Luke goes out to seek him, and the only reason he wants to train Luke is because he's needed on an important mission and can't do it himself. See Bob.

That doesn't really track. He was holding the Lightsaber specifically to give to Luke. "Your father wanted you to have this" and all that. The implication of that statement is that Obi-wan would have eventually sought out Luke on his own to give it to him, barring some unusual circumstance like Luke moving to the other side of the galaxy or something that would outright prevent him from doing so. It wasn't "Your father left this to me, but I think you should have it", it was "Your father wanted you to have this". That kind of precludes it from being something that Obi-wan decided to do on the spot but had otherwise given absolutely no thought about.

[Peelee]

That doesn't really track. He was holding the Lightsaber specifically to give to Luke.

Did you expect him to throw it away? If I have something for a friend's son, whose guardians don't want me to contact him, I'm probably never going to give it to him because there's not going to be any opportunity. So I'll say I may have been wrong, maybe he did have a will written up to leave it to Luke. But at some point going out of his way to find Luke and push it on him? There's no indication whatsoever. If the followup movies hadn't existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because it most likely would have never occurred to you. It's like the theory of Gandalf watching Frodo and biding his time, waiting to pull Frodo into the fold, for Frodo's entire life. If the new Amazon series up and made that canon, then there would still be no indication of it in the source material about it, and nobody has ever (to my knowledge) offered this suggestion before, because it's honestly kinda weird and creepy and makes no sense without supporting information. With nothing but knowledge of the first movie, if Kenobi was the person you were describing, he would be really creepy, and the kind of person you wouldn't want to meet a teenager alone at his house.

[Keltest]

Did you expect him to throw it away? If I have something for a friend's son, whose guardians don't want me to contact him, I'm probably never going to give it to him because there's not going to be any opportunity. So I'll say I may have been wrong, maybe he did have a will written up to leave it to Luke. But at some point going out of his way to find Luke and push it on him? There's no indication whatsoever. If the followup movies hadn't existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because it most likely would have never occurred to you. It's like the theory of Gandalf watching Frodo and biding his time, waiting to pull Frodo into the fold, for Frodo's entire life. If the new Amazon series up and made that canon, then there would still be no indication of it in the source material about it, and nobody has ever (to my knowledge) offered this suggestion before, because it's honestly kinda weird and creepy and makes no sense without supporting information. With nothing but knowledge of the first movie, if Kenobi was the person you were describing, he would be really creepy, and the kind of person you wouldn't want to meet a teenager alone at his house.

I mean, yes? Wasn't that the intent? Owen certainly didn't want Luke meeting with Ben at all, he's pretty clear about that. He's supposed to be a creepy mystic type. I think Owen even calls him a wizard at one point.

Anyway, youre arguing against your own points. You were claiming earlier that Luke is on the verge of independence, and that its therefore a good time to be springing these things on him, since Owen cant just unilaterally shut him down. And like I said before, its described as his religion. Is it really that unlikely that he wouldn't at least take it seriously enough to make some effort to proactively pass on the legacy?

[Peelee]

I mean, yes? Wasn't that the intent? Owen certainly didn't want Luke meeting with Ben at all, he's pretty clear about that. He's supposed to be a creepy mystic type.
.....no? Not at all? He's the wise mystic, he was Luke's father's friend, he was a guardian of peace and justice, he has magical powers he only uses to protect himself and Luke, he shows patience and kindness, he teaches Luke how to use the Force which shows he is telling the truth about that and that "wizard" is actually a pretty good description, he is in short none of the things you're claiming there and I can't imagine anybody in 1977 coming away with that impression.

Anyway, youre arguing against your own points. You were claiming earlier that Luke is on the verge of independence
Yes, to go and join the Academy and get off that rock. The only reason he's not going to the Academy now is because Owen needs him. So Luke is either under his uncle's thumb or off the planet. Do you think Obi-wan was going to go chase after Luke off-planet?

[Keltest]

.....no? Not at all? He's the wise mystic, he was Luke's father's friend, he was a guardian of peace and justice, he has magical powers he only uses to protect himself and Luke, he shows patience and kindness, he teaches Luke how to use the Force which shows he is telling the truth about that and that "wizard" is actually a pretty good description, he is in short none of the things you're claiming there and I can't imagine anybody in 1977 coming away with that impression.

Yes, to go and join the Academy and get off that rock. The only reason he's not going to the Academy now is because Owen needs him. So Luke is either under his uncle's thumb or off the planet. Do you think Obi-wan was going to go chase after Luke off-planet?

I think Obi-wan would drive up to Luke's house a day or two before he leaves and say "hey, I have some things your father left for you before you go."

Its not like its a spontaneous thing, and he at least has enough contact with the Lars household for Luke to know who he is and where he lives.

Also, as far as being creepy, it becomes significantly less so once there is the reveal that he was already a family friend that just didn't get along with Luke's uncle. Again, you were portraying this as entirely normal human interaction a while ago.

[Peelee]

I think Obi-wan would drive up to Luke's house a day or two before he leaves and say "hey, I have some things your father left for you before you go."

Which he could only do if he was actively watching Luke on a daily basis, which again is not indicated. You keep trying to say I'm getting lost in my own argument or arguing against my own points, but those keep not being the case. Your argument, however, is circular. You claim Kenobi was always watching Luke, and this is shown by his desire to give the saber to Luke, which he would obviously could only do because he was always watching Luke. It loops onto itself, A relies on B which relies on A.


Also, as far as being creepy, it becomes significantly less so once there is the reveal that he was already a family friend that just didn't get along with Luke's uncle. Again, you were portraying this as entirely normal human interaction a while ago.

Luke knows who Ben Kenobi is. Kenobi knows who Luke is. They talk for twenty seconds. In their next conversation, it's revealed that Kenobi knew Luke's father. When was this creepiness supposed to occur? Was it because Kenobi knew Luke existed?

[Keltest]

Which he could only do if he was actively watching Luke on a daily basis, which again is not indicated. You keep trying to say I'm getting lost in my own argument or arguing against my own points, but those keep not being the case. Your argument, however, is circular. You claim Kenobi was always watching Luke, and this is shown by his desire to give the saber to Luke, which he would obviously could only do because he was always watching Luke. It loops onto itself, A relies on B which relies on A.

Its not circular? Your B is just A said backwards. We know he was holding onto the saber to give to Luke because he says as much. Unless you want to suggest that he had completely forgotten about it until Luke showed up at his house, we can then figure that he intended to do so proactively at some point when it wouldn't cause so many issues. The alternative is that he doesn't actually care at all about the wishes of a man he claimed to be good friends with, and there isn't any evidence in the movie to support that.



Luke knows who Ben Kenobi is. Kenobi knows who Luke is. They talk for twenty seconds. In their next conversation, it's revealed that Kenobi knew Luke's father. When was this creepiness supposed to occur? Was it because Kenobi knew Luke existed?


It was because he was a mysterious old hermit that Owen didn't like, who shows up wearing a hood making some sort of wailing sound that scared the sandpeople. And then he turns out to be perfectly friendly and has a legitimate past, and the problem is with Owen, not Ben.

[Peelee]

Its not circular? Your B is just A said backwards.
You said it's obvious from the movie that he watches Luke (it's not). You've based this on the idea that he will, at some point, actively find Luke to give him the saber.
You said it's obvious from the movie that he would actively hunt down Luke to give him the saber (it's not). You've based this on the idea that he watches Luke.

That's a circular argument. You may have gotten there by saying "he passively wants Luke to have the saber because that's what Luke's father wanted" (which is true), but once you entered the active parts, you've gotten yourself into a circular argument.


We know he was holding onto the saber to give to Luke because he says as much. Unless you want to suggest that he had completely forgotten about it until Luke showed up at his house
Not "forgotten," but "not worried." He didn't worry about it until Luke showed up at his house. Because we're going to back to the old well of "that's how normal human interaction works." His father wanted Luke to have it, his uncle wouldn't allow it, so Kenobi isn't going to be sitting around trying to determine when the optimal time to find Luke in that sweet spot between when he leaves the farm and goes to the Academy (which he only knows about because of the intensive stalking he does of Luke) is. That's crazy. It's what a crazy person does. Now, yes, you've claimed Kenobi was supposed to be seen as crazy, but again, circular, because he's only going to be seen as crazy if you already assume he's doing the actions of a crazy person, and assuming that with zero evidence.

It was because he was a mysterious old hermit that Owen didn't like, who shows up wearing a hood making some sort of wailing sound that scared the sandpeople. And then he turns out to be perfectly friendly and has a legitimate past, and the problem is with Owen, not Ben.
Yes. Hints that Owen is kind of a jerk come up before we meet Ben, such as when Luke wants to go the Academy and Owen forbids it, despite Luke's objections and Beru's admonishments! He's a gruff, grizzled old farmer, which we see in his interactions with the Jawas. Luke is afraid his uncle is going to kill him for R2 running away. He instantly has a visceral reaction to Kenobi despite Luke talking very calmly. Leia, a clear hero, is seen begging for his help. Everything before we ever meet Kenobi shows that Kenobi is someone we want Luke to meet, and shows Owen to be (relatively) unpleasant, for a guardian figure. He's no Disney villain, but he's played as a pretty realistic somewhat harsh parent. You're not supposed to think, "this Owen guy is a bastion of reason and fact!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it's less Kenobi wants or needs Luke and more he prefers to work with the son of his old war buddy who got scragged back in the day. This is a remake of a Kurosawa film, remember, so think in terms of a samurai film. Kenobi is the old retired warrior, Owen is the farmer who lost his brother to the wars and is afraid Kenobi will drag Luke off to the wars (and probably get him killed as well).

Thus, Obi-Wan and Owen are fighting over Anakin's legacy, in a way. Famous warrior, or lost brother?


Pieces of Eight being an informal way of dividing up coins as currency in the age of piracy.

For those who don't know, Pieces of Eight (technically a Thaler) get their name from being an eight-sided coin. Which meant that when you needed a smaller amount it was fairly easy to take a chisel and split it in half, quarters or (eventually) eighths, just by cutting from corner to corner. Note we still refer to a quarter-dollar as two-bits.

[Keltest]

Maybe its just because im from farmer stock myself, but ive always seen Owen as the rational guy who rightly sees things like flying a starfighter at a super death weapon as terrifying things to be avoided rather than chased after, myself. One who genuinely cares for Luke's safety and sees in him the same things that got his father killed.

And im not basing anything off the idea that he watches Luke. I think Ben would proactively try to give Luke the saber because that's just what people do when they have something for somebody else. If I end up with a gift for somebody, im going to try and find a way to get it to them beyond hoping they eventually stumble into my house when im around.

As for knowing Luke is going to the academy, he evidently has at least enough contact with the Lars family for Luke to know who he is and where he lives, even though its far enough away that R2 couldn't get there on foot even having left overnight. Between that and the fact that he was friends with Luke's father, is it really that implausible that he would simply ask Owen how Luke is doing every now and again? Owen doesn't like Ben, but its not like he actively hates him personally or anything, he just thinks he's dangerous for Luke to be around.

[Peelee]

I think it's less Kenobi wants or needs Luke and more he prefers to work with the son of his old war buddy who got scragged back in the day. This is a remake of a Kurosawa film, remember, so think in terms of a samurai film. Kenobi is the old retired warrior, Owen is the farmer who lost his brother to the wars and is afraid Kenobi will drag Luke off to the wars (and probably get him killed as well).

Thus, Obi-Wan and Owen are fighting over Anakin's legacy, in a way. Famous warrior, or lost brother?

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I think Ben would proactively try to give Luke the saber because that's just what people do when they have something for somebody else. If I end up with a gift for somebody, im going to try and find a way to get it to them beyond hoping they eventually stumble into my house when im around.
Kenobi did try. Owen said no. Kenobi shows no signs of having tried to continue fighting against Owen on that, and shows no signs of having kept trying. He does give it when it's literally the most convenient circumstances possible.

As for knowing Luke is going to the academy, he evidently has at least enough contact with the Lars family for Luke to know who he is and where he lives, even though its far enough away that R2 couldn't get there on foot even having left overnight.
Yeah,in 1977 that technology was called a phone book. It's not supremely weird or anything that Kenobi, knowing who Luke and his relative are, could find out a way to contact them in a world with spaceships when that technology exists in a world where digital watches are fancy new technology.

Also, Luke knew "the Jundland Wastes." I know Jimmy Hoffa lived in Michigan, but I'm pretty sure you're not going to suggest familiarity there. And with Owen's reaction to simply hearing Kenobi's name, no, I'm pretty sure dude doesn't just stop by every so often. Person non grata.

[Bohandas]

And yet he was able to recognize him and C-3PO constantly throughout TCW, even in places where he would have no reason to recognize the droids apart from any other standard model. Given that, we absolutely should expect Kenobi to recognize them, especially when they show up as a pair, with the son of the longtime owner of R2 and the original builder of 3PO, in the middle of a desert where no astromech and protocol droid have any business being, specifically looking for Kenobi.

"They were standard models" doesn't cut it.


Furthermore, C-3P0 technically isn't standard, IIRC one of his limbs is a different color from the others because that's what Anakin happened to have available.

[Cazero]

Furthermore, C-3P0 technically isn't standard, IIRC one of his limbs is a different color from the others because that's what Anakin happened to have available.That's a "war wound" from the sequel trilogy. He's full golden in episodes 3 through 6 (and maybe also 2 but I don't remember if he had his covering yet).

[Fyraltari]

That's a "war wound" from the sequel trilogy. He's full golden in episodes 3 through 6 (and maybe also 2 but I don't remember if he had his covering yet).

No he is not.
https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/c/8/0119f38b2014530675e4bc4365ee137915e1ea9e98d360cdf0 c00137c8f250/hqdefault.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FC TLkSARAXZM%2Fhqdefault.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=1

[Cazero]

Amusing trick of the light. But his full leg is visible (and somewhat blurred) behind the silver-y effect, so we know the picture is not a reliable indicator of color.

[LibraryOgre]

Might we move the discussion of the truth of Obi-wan Kenobi to its own thread?

[Fyraltari]

Amusing trick of the light. But his full leg is visible (and somewhat blurred) behind the silver-y effect, so we know the picture is not a reliable indicator of color.

I legitimately cannot tell whether this is a joke.

[Keltest]

Might we move the discussion of the truth of Obi-wan Kenobi to its own thread?

I gave up on that yesterday when it occurred to me that I couldn't remember the original point being argued.

[Hopeless]

I think Leia set up the search for the map to Luke as a ruse to discover how badly Snoke had infiltrated the New Republic.

That hyperspace tracker they spouted about is because the New Republic installed imperial tech based on that missile the Grand Inquisitor used with that missile that struck the Phantom in Star Wars Rebels.
The New Republic installed them into any ship they had access to after being goaded into it by pawns of Snoke to prevent a Rebel Alliance being formed against them.

That's why I prefer Holdo to be a New Republic Admiral and not a member of the Resistance thus explaining her distrust and ridiculous habit of keeping her plans secret from those she's supposed to be commanding.

Paige & Rose's ships are actually civilian mining craft and not military craft explaining why they're so fragile and frankly rubbish in actually serious combat.

So Holdo picked them up to locate Leia and she was the one who messed up sending them into combat when it was clear they shouldn't have been there rather than Poe.

Holdo was sent to locate and bring Leia back to Hosnian Prime so they can officially disperse her Resistance group thus had they not acted too soon the use of Starkiller Base would have wiped out all opposition instead of just those Senators who wasn't loyal to Snoke.

As per Cobalt Squadron Holdo located Rose's group and took them into custody pressing them into leading them to Leia under the guise of seeking her help.

I wouldn't have brought Palpatine back instead reveal the Inquisitors usurped power forming a Dark Council of their own becoming the big bad of any future movies or tv series set in this era thus avoiding all those problems being suggested as part of the reason the ST is so problematic.

Still wouldn't have killed off Luke as I actually want there to be an actual Jedi Order and not the mess they left it in!

[Imbalance]

Santa Claus doesn't fly around Earth, but through it. Evidence is found in all the little holes that keep popping up in Siberia and the recently discovered ones off the California coast. Belize has a pretty big one. If you turn on satellite view on Maps, there's also a ton if them up in Canada that nobody talks about, because geologists figured out what was going on decades ago and chose to keep his secret. I'm willing to bet that more of these mysterious pits will be discovered in the coming years, bringing us closer than ever to finally apprehending the elusive elf.

[No brains]

Santa Claus is actually a form of radiation. He can travel absurdly fast, can go straight through barriers, and may even be inside people. Prolonged exposure may be dangerous, especially in the form of Christmas music spam.

[Bohandas]

No, he just reduplicates himself like Doctor Manhattan. In fact, Santa Claus has all of the powers of Doctor Manhattan.

[Rodin]

Reminds me of this analysis of Santa Claus that has been kicking around the Internet for ages.

There are approximately two billion children (persons under 10) in the world. However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim, Hindu,
Jewish or Buddhist (except maybe in Japan) religions, this reduces the workload for Christmas night to 15% of the total, or 378 million (according to the Population Reference Bureau). At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that comes to 108 million homes, presuming that there is at least one good child in each. Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the
different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 967.7 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household
with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000th of a second to park the sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left for him, get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh and get on to the next house.

Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false, but will accept for the purposes of our calculations), we are now talking about
0.78 miles per household; a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting bathroom stops or breaks. This means Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second--3,000 times the speed of sound.
For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 15 miles per hour. The payload of the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized Lego set (two pounds), the sleigh is carrying over 500 thousand tons, not counting Santa himself. On land, a conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that the "flying" reindeer could pull ten times the normal amount, the job can't be done with eight or even nine of them - Santa would need 360,000 of them. This increases the payload, not counting the weight of the sleigh, another 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth (the ship, not the monarch). 600,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this would heat up the reindeer in the same fashion as a spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second each. In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team would be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second, or right about the time Santa reached the fifth house on his trip.

Not that it matters, however, since Santa - as a result of accelerating from a dead stop to 650 m. p. s. in . 001 seconds - would be subjected to acceleration forces of 17,500 g's. A 250 pound Santa which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and organs and reducing him to a quivering puddle of pink goo.

Therefore, if Santa did exist, he's dead now.

Merry Christmas!

[Kantaki]

Merry Christmas!

So what I'm getting from this is that Santa is in all of us.:smalltongue:
Specifically in our lungs.:smallamused:
Because we breathed him in.:smallbiggrin:

[Imbalance]

So what I'm getting from this is that Santa is in all of us.:smalltongue:
Specifically in our lungs.:smallamused:
Because we breathed him in.:smallbiggrin:

I can see his presence reflected in my bank statement.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Odd, he's on my credit card balance as well.

((Also, you have the right handle for this discussion.:smallbiggrin:))

[Bohandas]

This next one isn't even really a headcanon, its a proper canon that everyone seems to have missed. The entities of the cthulhu mythos have no particular general power to cause madness. The characters in the classic cthulhu mythos end up in madhouses for one of three relatively mundane reasons

1.) Bizzare story (or possession) misdiagnosed as madness. (ex. "The Thing on the Doorstep" "The Shadow Out of Time" "The Wall of Sleep")

2.) Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

3.) Physical brain damage (ex. "Re-Animator" "The Color out of Space" "The Repairer of Reputations")

[Fyraltari]

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
Also ‘the rats in the walls’ end with the narrator attacking husband best friend while chanting Shyb-Niggurath’s name even though he’s never heard of her.

[Gnoman]

At the Mountains Of Madness heavily implies that seeing a Shoggoth drove one of the two survivors of the expedition mad, and even the other one (the narrator) is still haunted by the experience of hearing one.

[Bohandas]

At the Mountains Of Madness heavily implies that seeing a Shoggoth drove one of the two survivors of the expedition mad, and even the other one (the narrator) is still haunted by the experience of hearing one.

Didn't they also see the flayed bodies of the other members of the expedition and get lost in the ancient city? It seems likely that they just have mundane PTSD.

[Friv]

At the Mountains Of Madness heavily implies that seeing a Shoggoth drove one of the two survivors of the expedition mad, and even the other one (the narrator) is still haunted by the experience of hearing one.

My recollection is that it wasn't seeing a normal shoggoth that drove him mad, it was seeing a mountainous monstrous thing at the heart of the mountain, a thing which may have been the ultimate evolution of the shoggoths or may have been some terrible force that controlled them. The team sees what they believe to be a shoggoth at the tail end of a terrible journey, and while that is a terrifying cry, it's definitely more of the general PTSD variety than a cosmic shattering of the mind.

[Bohandas]

1.) Blasters in Star Wars are extremely difficult to aim

2.) In the remastered version of Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope, the scene with Greedo shooting first was added not to soften Han Solo's characterization but rather as an attempt to establish blasters as difficult to aim (Greedo misses from point-blank range) and thereby help justify Obi-Wan's assertion that imperial stormtroopers are expert marksmen (while the shots they make onscreen typically don't connect, they nevertheless come closer to hitting their mark than Greedo did, and we must remember that Greedo is a hardened gangster and presumably no stranger to weapons)

[Traab]

1.) Blasters in Star Wars are extremely difficult to aim

2.) In the remastered version of Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope, the scene with Greedo shooting first was added not to soften Han Solo's characterization but rather as an attempt to establish blasters as difficult to aim (Greedo misses from point-blank range) and thereby help justify Obi-Wan's assertion that imperial stormtroopers are expert marksmen (while the shots they make onscreen typically don't connect, they nevertheless come closer to hitting their mark than Greedo did, and we must remember that Greedo is a hardened gangster and presumably no stranger to weapons)

Why would anybody USE blasters if they cant hit someone less than 5 feet away reliably? Fricking MUSKETS were more reliable than blasters if that was the case.

[Keltest]

Why would anybody USE blasters if they cant hit someone less than 5 feet away reliably? Fricking MUSKETS were more reliable than blasters if that was the case.

Because theyre armor-piercing, and armor/shields technology has developed to the point where projectile weapons don't do much more than just knock your opponent over.

Amusingly, this does line up with the KOTOR games, where a character with a blaster will fire two or three shots per attack, missing wildly with all except one even on a successful hit.

[Peelee]

Because theyre armor-piercing

[new series comes out where blasters do not pierce armor]

Before you go all "but beskar" on me, he starts out without mandalorian iron, gets shot, and shrugs it off. Also, the latest episode of Star Wars: Resistance has armor impervious to blasters.

Also, Kotor games have lightsabers do not-immediately-lethal damage to animals. Realism takes a backplace to gameplay.

[Keltest]

[new series comes out where blasters do not pierce armor]

Before you go all "but beskar" on me, he starts out without mandalorian iron, gets shot, and shrugs it off. Also, the latest episode of Star Wars: Resistance has armor impervious to blasters.

Also, Kotor games have lightsabers do not-immediately-lethal damage to animals. Realism takes a backplace to gameplay.

Not all armor is created equal.

And the KOTOR example was meant to be an amusing anecdote. I also think this particular headcanon is rather unlikely, but I do have to admit its stronger than some others ive seen.

As far as lightsabers not killing animals immediately goes, my headcanon is that in the games, the saber wielders are trying to take measures to avoid being killed by the animal's death throes or momentum. If you lightsaber one of those animals in the AotC arena, for example, it doesn't matter if you decapitate it if you then get crushed under its dead body and die from it.

[hamishspence]

My recollection is that it wasn't seeing a normal shoggoth that drove him mad, it was seeing a mountainous monstrous thing at the heart of the mountain,

I think they were on the plane, high above, when Danforth looks back and has his reaction - at something beyond the mountains. The narrator suggests it may have something to do with "Kadath in the Cold Waste".

[Peelee]

Not all armor is created equal.

Imean, I have no problem with that statement, but you could just as well say "not all blasters are created equal." At which point, why does Greedo have a blaster so crappy it can't shoot straight from two feet away while Chewbacca over here is blowing up speeder bikes from a hundred yards.

[Keltest]

Imean, I have no problem with that statement, but you could just as well say "not all blasters are created equal." At which point, why does Greedo have a blaster so crappy it can't shoot straight from two feet away while Chewbacca over here is blowing up speeder bikes from a hundred yards.

Because Greedo is a crappy gangster while Chewie is a veteran of the clone wars, and also a wookiee. I mean really, that question stands even without the accuracy headcanon. My recall from at least oldcanon is that proper bowcasters are unwieldy for non-wookiees, although that's obviously not a hard and fast rule.

[Peelee]

Because Greedo is a crappy gangster
I know this wasn't you, but from the start of this whole thing:

we must remember that Greedo is a hardened gangster and presumably no stranger to weapons
For the record, I totally agree with you, but I also don't headcanon "blasters can't hit ****".:smalltongue:

[Keltest]

I know this wasn't you, but from the start of this whole thing:

For the record, I totally agree with you, but I also don't headcanon "blasters can't hit ****".:smalltongue:

Neither do I, im just arguing the point for the sake of it. Anyway, I didn't mean greedo was bad at being a gangster, I meant that being a mid level gangster on a backwater planet, he doesn't have access to the highest level of equipment even if he could use it effectively.

[Friv]

Imean, I have no problem with that statement, but you could just as well say "not all blasters are created equal." At which point, why does Greedo have a blaster so crappy it can't shoot straight from two feet away while Chewbacca over here is blowing up speeder bikes from a hundred yards.

I think at a certain point, you just have to accept that some people in Star Wars are magically blaster-proof.

See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.

[Keltest]

I think at a certain point, you just have to accept that some people in Star Wars are magically blaster-proof.

See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.

Obviously the First Order was so resource starved that they made their hostile environment suits out of Self-Destructium.

[Peelee]

I think at a certain point, you just have to accept that some people in Star Wars are magically blaster-proof.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/mK5azbCLNA1Vu/source.gif

See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.
I think I've been pretty outspoken about my feelings re:Poe.

Also, this is the same trilogy that took stun shots, which just drop the person, and decided they should fling you across the room in a potentially deadly fashion. For a cheap laugh.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's more part of the whole Hollywood rocket ammunition thing where anybody who gets shot goes flying.

[Bohandas]

See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.

low on power/ammo maybe?

[Peelee]

low on power/ammo maybe?

Blasters having a finite power supply is absolutely canon, but usually only pulled out for plot reasons, and called out as such. I'm not saying it's not the case here, but I'm leery of it.

[Fyraltari]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/mK5azbCLNA1Vu/source.gif

Just as blaster-proof as Poe, then? They both were shot by a weapon that usually instant-kills its target but because they were just shot in the arm, they just get a minor burn that nobody mentions ever again.

Because plot armor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To be fair, the arm was bugging her a bit in the book set right after Endor. Thought that was a nice touch, not only did the injury stick around for a bit but the medical teams had much bigger issues to worry about than her booboos.

[Sapphire Guard]

Greedo's blaster just happened to be faulty or damaged, maybe.

When Leia was shot, was that a shrapnel wound from a near miss on the door?


See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.

I got nothing.

[Saintheart]

I think at a certain point, you just have to accept that some people in Star Wars are magically blaster-proof.

See also Rise of Skywalker, in which the heroes can pick up a First Order blaster and use it to shoot stormtroopers, creating three-inch wide cauterized holes that fire all the way through two layers of armor, leaving super-visible still-glowing wounds on both sides, but when Poe gets shot by the exact same blaster he gets a light injury to his arm instead of it falling the heck off.

Likewise, Finn takes a lightsaber wound to the back which should have basically ripped his spine out. Even allowing for advanced medical tech, he's up and walking around less than 24 hours later (i.e. between TFA and TLJ.)

Or maybe it's just that blaster bolts are unstable, being spun pockets of plasma, and thus very random in their actual effect? Some bolts are armor-carving, other bolts are close to duds?

EDIT: Oh, and Obi-Wan himself provides some possibility of this being the case in ANH: when comparing blasters with lightsabers, he says that a lightsaber is "not as clumsy or random as a blaster". So the bolts themselves are powerful enough to rip through armor, but the randomness of the energy in any given bolt means they can also just inflict light wounds?

[Kantaki]

Greedo's blaster just happened to be faulty or damaged, maybe.

Possible.

Didn't the novelization and/or Legends call Greedo out as a absolute greenhorn?

Maybe a combination of both.
I mean, he basically let Han control the situation, what with letting him drop his hand out of sight.
Where Han could draw a weapon.

Having a badly calibrated blaster and firing wildly in a combination of intimidation attempt and panic attack- because that naked monkey is just so smug and sure of himself -isn't much of a stretch.

[Bohandas]

Are you sure it didn't just say that he had green horns

[No brains]

Are you sure it didn't just say that he had green horns

My headcanon is that Greedo's green horns were head cannons and if he fired those first, we'd have far fewer pages of headcanon. :smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

Are you sure it didn't just say that he had green horns

:smallsigh:I knew I shouldn't have used that word talking about the bugface.:smallsigh:

But yes, from what I remember Greedo's experience and his skin (scale?) colour can be described with the same word.:smalltongue:
He's green!:smallbiggrin:Like this smiley.:smallwink:Smileys.

[Bohandas]

I thi k it would be funny if in The Elder Scrolls it turned out that the ending of the 23rd Lesson of Vivec ("I give you an ancient road tempered by the second walking way. Your hands must be huge to wield any sword the size of an ancient road, and yet he who is of right stature may irritate the sun with only a stick.") is not metaphorical and that at some point in time Vivec has literally harassed the sun god Magnus by poking him with a stick.

EDIT:

Speaking of Elder Scrolls, I have another beadcanon that involves both Elder Scrolls and The LEGO Movie

The scene in the LEGO movie where Emmet moves while outside of the Lego world (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OhlTuTzROf8&t=01m47s) is technically an example of CHIM (''This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”.'' -Vehk's Teaching)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

(Assuming this can be revived because there would be no functional difference between that and opening "What's your favorite headcanon? 3: The mods must be crazy", as it's not really a "reply to the first poster" kind of thread. Also if this does get closed for thread necromancy that's totally the next thread title.)

Some GiantITP headcanons:

- The Giant is an actual giant publishing in our world under the pseudonym Rich Burlew and acting all humany.

- Our Earth is the monster in the dark, and the planet in the rift is Snorlax.

- This is the only thread where you can say Redfel Redfel Redfel and he won't appear.

- Anyone who posts a headcannon joke in a headcanon thread is there for the first time. (Whether this point counts as one of those is left up to the reader as an exercise.)

- The forum rules have a hidden clause that describe this exact post word for word and state it's worth 20 infraction points.

- After the comic concludes Thog will be outed as having been Dumbledore all along.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for necromancy.