Open Hand Monk or Bear Totem Barbarian?

[FoxDropz]

Im having a hard time picking one of those two classes: Open Hand Monk and Bear Totem Barbarian.

Could you guys tell me more about their:

1- Gameplay Mechanics (Combat, Social and Exploration)

2- Role in party (Dmg or Tank Potential)

3- DPR (How hard can they hit compared to other Classes?)

4- "Fun" features (What motivates you to play these Classes?)

Which one would you say is the "best" overall and why?

[Man_Over_Game]

Im having a hard time picking one of those two classes: Open Hand Monk and Bear Totem Barbarian.

Could you guys tell me more about their:

1- Gameplay Mechanics (Combat, Social and Exploration)

2- Role in party (Dmg or Tank Potential)

3- DPR (How hard can they hit compared to other Classes?)

4- "Fun" features (What motivates you to play these Classes?)

Which one would you say is the "best" overall and why?




Open Hand
Bear Totem


Combat
Lock down major targets, adapt to new circumstances in combat
Be an indestructible obstacle that your opponent can't ever stop


Non-Combat
Utilize non-violence and powerful mobility, with a splash of "political hippy"
Emphasizes standard Barbarian tropes, with a splash of "nature hippy"


Role
Single-Target Controller, potential for damage, decently tanky
Undying Tank, decent damage


Fun
You like to utilize creative solutions and adapt. Complexity is your fun.
You like to be consistent, attack and never die. Success is your fun.




So that's it.

Or simply, what's more fun: Complexity, or Winning?

There are two major aspects of tanking:

Effect and Durability.

Effect is how much you provide in combat. This is how much damage you do, or how much you lock down an enemy. This is how much value you provide when you're being ignored.
Durability is how hard it is for the enemy to kill you. This can be AC, Damage Resistance, Healing, etc. You gain value by being attacked.

Open Hand Monk has slightly higher Effect than Durability.
Bear Totem Barbarian has dramatically more Durability than Effect.

You generally want these to be balanced. Too much Durability, and you're reliant on the enemy to attack you to provide value to your team. Too much Effect, and you die too damn easily (think Hexblade or Bladesinger).

You want to match what your team needs. If you suspect you're the only available target (like, say the majority of your team are ranged characters), a high Durability tank is perfect.

However, if you went with an option that doesn't work with your team (a high Durability tank, in a team of bruisers and other melee linemen), you can pick feats that fill in your weakness. Things that increase your damage or make allies unlikable targets (Great Weapon Master, Sentinel) will make you more Effective. Things that make you harder to kill (Toughness, AC) will compensate against taking too much damage.

Try to balance it out so that your enemies are left with no good options.

[Nidgit]

Would you rather be an immovable object or a spanner in the works?

A Bear Totem Barbarian prioritizes survivability. You get up in an enemy's face and happily stay there. You're not doing maximal damage but your numbers are still pretty high, and combat is pretty straightforward. Out of combat, you've usually got extremely limited applications, but better than most other barbarians.

An Open Hand Monk is a monk with a bit more durability and battlefield control than the average monk. Your aim is to slip between enemies and disrupt their formation, setting them up for the rest of your allies to finish off. With your level 6 ability you can tank a bit if you need too, but you'd rather be like most monks and leverage your superior mobility to stay out of reach. Your damage is pretty solid but behind that of dedicated damage-dealers like fighters or barbarians, though you've got a lot more options for things to do in combat. Out of combat, you make a pretty good scout and decent with Wisdom-based skills, with some very useful stuff coming at high levels.

They're pretty different playstyles, can you tell us what interests you?

[FoxDropz]

Open Hand
Bear Totem


Combat
Lock down major targets, adapt to new circumstances in combat
Be an indestructible obstacle that your opponent can't ever stop


Non-Combat
Utilize non-violence and powerful mobility, with a splash of "political hippy"
Emphasizes standard Barbarian tropes, with a splash of "nature hippy"


Role
Single-Target Controller, potential for damage, decently tanky
Undying Tank, decent damage


Fun
You like to utilize creative solutions and adapt. Complexity is your fun.
You like to be consistent, attack and never die. Success is your fun.




So that's it.

Or simply, what's more fun: Complexity, or Winning?





Would you rather be an immovable object or a spanner in the works?

A Bear Totem Barbarian prioritizes survivability. You get up in an enemy's face and happily stay there. You're not doing maximal damage but your numbers are still pretty high, and combat is pretty straightforward. Out of combat, you've usually got extremely limited applications, but better than most other barbarians.

An Open Hand Monk is a monk with a bit more durability and battlefield control than the average monk. Your aim is to slip between enemies and disrupt their formation, setting them up for the rest of your allies to finish off. With your level 6 ability you can tank a bit if you need too, but you'd rather be like most monks and leverage your superior mobility to stay out of reach. Your damage is pretty solid but behind that of dedicated damage-dealers like fighters or barbarians, though you've got a lot more options for things to do in combat. Out of combat, you make a pretty good scout and decent with Wisdom-based skills, with some very useful stuff coming at high levels.

They're pretty different playstyles, can you tell us what interests you?

I really liked the way you guys compared both! They have their own specific flavor, but still very useful in their own ways.
I think I would give a slight edge to Barbarian, because I really think "juggernaut" type of characters are awesome. And I think I'd rather be more static than mobile.
Plus, the party so far is kinda squishy. A tanky character would probably fit best, right?

[Man_Over_Game]

I really liked the way you guys compared both! They have their own specific flavor, but still very useful in their own ways.
I think I would give a slight edge to Barbarian, because I really think "juggernaut" type of characters are awesome. And I think I'd rather be more static than mobile.
Plus, the party so far is kinda squishy (Bard, Lock, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue). A tanky character would probably fit best, right?

I would agree. On a scale of Tankiness to Squishiness, you want about 60% of your team to be Tanky.

If you rated those classes based on a scale from Squishy (1) to Tanky (10) (before including subclasses):


Bard: 3
Warlock: 3
Cleric: 5
Rogue: 4



The goal is 6.

Your team's average is:


Without you: 3.75
With a Monk (6): 4.2
With a Barbarian (10): 5



So a Barbarian gets you a lot closer to your goal of 6, but your team could still use a little bit more durability.

Since you don't have many features that would utilize your Bonus Action, you'd benefit a lot from a feat that would require it. Shield Master would be good if you feel your team needs more durability, or Polearm Master if you need more damage. You can even go Two-Weapon Fighting if you wanted to, since Rage will apply +2 damage to your off-hand attack (although this would cost 2 AC from not wielding a shield).

[djreynolds]

You don't have to grab the same totem every time.
You can take bear at 3rd
Tiger at 6th for 2 skills
Wolf at 14th

Tiger at 6th level gives 2 very useful skills

And reckless attack and GWM is the best combo.

Totem barbarian is just fine

[Nidgit]

I really liked the way you guys compared both! They have their own specific flavor, but still very useful in their own ways.
I think I would give a slight edge to Barbarian, because I really think "juggernaut" type of characters are awesome. And I think I'd rather be more static than mobile.
Plus, the party so far is kinda squishy (Bard, Lock, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue). A tanky character would probably fit best, right?
I would also agree, your party would appreciate a dedicated tank. Barbarian is probably the better fit.

To throw a couple other juggernaut subclasses your way, have you considered an Ancestral Guardian barbarian? The Bear Totem's main weakness is that it can be somewhat bypassed to attack other party members without much repercussion. The Ancestral Guardian barbarian fixes that by protecting allies and forcing enemies to attack you in exchange for some of the Bear Totem's survivability. It's a very potent and team-oriented fighter.

Other potent juggernauts include Paladins and some Fighters. Ancients Paladins are the most indestructible, with bonuses to saving throws and resistance to spells to you and nearby allies. It's probably the most like the Bear Totem Barbarian in that it's a total pain to bring down, but it trades the barbarian's resistances and consistent damage for nova damage, neat spells, and social skills. The Conquest Paladin isn't quite so durable but becomes one of the stickiest characters in the game by terrifying enemies and freezing them in place. Both are pretty cool.

The two Fighters I might suggest considering are the Eldritch Knight and Cavalier. Fighters in general do the most consistently high damage and can be highly customized through all their feats, so they're often a solid choice. The Cavalier is more like the Ancestral Guardian barbarian in that both focus on drawing enemy fire and protecting allies. The Eldritch Knight, on the other hand, can use its spells to have sky-high AC and reactive resistances to be one of the most durable classes in 5e.

I certainly don't mean to dissuade you from Bear Totem, which is quite good in its own right. Just wanted to give you some other similar options to feel out too.

[FoxDropz]

I would also agree, your party would appreciate a dedicated tank. Barbarian is probably the better fit.

To throw a couple other juggernaut subclasses your way, have you considered an Ancestral Guardian barbarian? The Bear Totem's main weakness is that it can be somewhat bypassed to attack other party members without much repercussion. The Ancestral Guardian barbarian fixes that by protecting allies and forcing enemies to attack you in exchange for some of the Bear Totem's survivability. It's a very potent and team-oriented fighter.

Other potent juggernauts include Paladins and some Fighters. Ancients Paladins are the most indestructible, with bonuses to saving throws and resistance to spells to you and nearby allies. It's probably the most like the Bear Totem Barbarian in that it's a total pain to bring down, but it trades the barbarian's resistances and consistent damage for nova damage, neat spells, and social skills. The Conquest Paladin isn't quite so durable but becomes one of the stickiest characters in the game by terrifying enemies and freezing them in place. Both are pretty cool.

The two Fighters I might suggest considering are the Eldritch Knight and Cavalier. Fighters in general do the most consistently high damage and can be highly customized through all their feats, so they're often a solid choice. The Cavalier is more like the Ancestral Guardian barbarian in that both focus on drawing enemy fire and protecting allies. The Eldritch Knight, on the other hand, can use its spells to have sky-high AC and reactive resistances to be one of the most durable classes in 5e.

I certainly don't mean to dissuade you from Bear Totem, which is quite good in its own right. Just wanted to give you some other similar options to feel out too.


My main goal was to pick a Class with Damage and a bit of Tankiness.. kinda locked on the Bar
Do you think Paladin could fill that role better than Monk/Barbarian? I would like to play an "easy" class this time, with not much management...

[djreynolds]

Two barbarians...perhaps from the same tribe... cool. Right?

Paladin is very easy... smite when needed.

IMO monks take a practiced hand... up for the challenge?

See what your friend plays?

At a table of mine... we have a wolf totem and a paladin... they lay down some pain with great weapon master.

[FoxDropz]

Two barbarians...perhaps from the same tribe... cool. Right?

Paladin is very easy... smite when needed.

IMO monks take a practiced hand... up for the challenge?

See what your friend plays?

At a table of mine... we have a wolf totem and a paladin... they lay down some pain with great weapon master.

Vengeance Paladin looks sick tbh!

[djreynolds]

It's awesome. The spells the flavor.

It's a great archetype.

[FoxDropz]

It's awesome. The spells the flavor.

It's a great archetype.

Gotcha.. sorry for not actually stating what I was really looking for, but I wanted to roll a class that can dish out good Damage, be Tankish and have simple management (another why I didn't want to roll a full caster for example). Barbarian, Monk and Paladin felt like the best contenders. From what you said Paladin might have the edge on this one. Only Vengeance Paladin fits the bill or the other Subclasses too?

[Frozenstep]

Gotcha.. sorry for not actually stating what I was really looking for, but I wanted to roll a class that can dish out good Damage, be Tankish and have simple management (another why I didn't want to roll a full caster for example). Barbarian, Monk and Paladin felt like the best contenders. From what you said Paladin might have the edge on this one. Only Vengeance Paladin fits the bill or the other Subclasses too?

What's your definition of simple management?

You could play all the classes you listed in a way that is simple and get some amount of value out of them, or put in more thought and be more effective at certain roles. If you play Barbarian in a simple way, all you need to do is judge whether a fight is worth a rage or not (recharges on a long rest), after that you can just go up and hit things. If you want to do better at being a tank, then positioning yourself so enemies need to take opportunity attacks/extra movement to reach your backline allies, using your advantage on strength checks to grapple/shove enemies to keep them still or potentially move them into ally spells/field effects (you can grapple two enemies at once if both hands are free, too), and managing your use of reckless attack so that it doesn't get you killed even when you use it outside of a rage (or use it to provoke an attack on you to try and save an ally) will all help towards that goal.

[Man_Over_Game]

Gotcha.. sorry for not actually stating what I was really looking for, but I wanted to roll a class that can dish out good Damage, be Tankish and have simple management (another why I didn't want to roll a full caster for example). Barbarian, Monk and Paladin felt like the best contenders. From what you said Paladin might have the edge on this one. Only Vengeance Paladin fits the bill or the other Subclasses too?

Seems like there's a few things you're considering with different weights.

Below is a personality quiz that determines your perfect class/race/subclass that I made a while back. People seemed to like it, and I'd dare say it is really damn accurate.

GitP post: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579402-I-ve-UPLOADED-a-personality-quiz-that-gives-you-your-best-build-Wanna-try

Quiz download link (Excel document): https://www.enworld.org/threads/personality-quiz-to-determine-your-favorite-class-race-subclass.657399/#post-7568062

Or, if you're interested in the results but don't want to download anything, read the following spoiler (from the first link) and just post your answers:

Section 1: Class

For each question, you will give me one number, with an optional second number. The first number is on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being the absolute of one side of the question, and 10 being the opposite side.

The second number is a multiplier to determine how important that distinction is. You can choose to ignore the second number, but it defaults to 1. So if you want something to be twice as important as anything else, you just give me 2 as the second number and you can have every other one of your answers have no second number (because I'll just default it to 1).

For example, the first question is whether you want to be a melee combatant (1) or a ranged combatant (10). For the first number, 1 is a strictly melee combatant, 10 is a strictly ranged combatant, 5 is a character halfway between both. How big the second number is will change how important that distinction is. For example, if you chose your first number as 5, and your multiplier as 3 (written as 5/3), you've indicated that it's 3x as important for your character to be equally as good with melee and ranged combat. However, 10 with 0.5 implies that you prefer very long ranged combat (10), but it's not that important of a distinction for what you're looking for (0.5).

You can also just choose to use 0 or N/A in any answer and I'll just omit it so that it has no impact on your end result.

Questions:


Do you prefer to be Melee (1) or Ranged (10)?
Do you solve your problems through Force (1) or Finesse (10)?
Do you solve your problems through Talent (1) or Magic (10)?
Do you want playing your character to be Simple (1) or Complex (10)?
Do you want your character to be Civil (1) or Savage (10)?
Do you prefer your character to be Kind (1) or Selfish (10)?
Does your character serve a higher power (1) or their own interests (10)?
Does your character influence others (1) or are they more independent (10)?
Do you want to be more Consistent (1) or more Versatile (10)?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 2: Race

Same deal. This is mostly to find a race/society that mostly matches your targeted persona, rather than directly trying to maximize stats. You can be a social Goliath, it just means you're probably very different from the expectations of your race. I haven't gotten around to adding all the obscure races yet. Only PHB, Elemental Evil, and Aasimar so far. You can also add a second digit, just like before, to change how important an option is (although I just default to 1 if you omit the multiplier)

Questions:


Are you Wild (1) or Civilized (10)?
Are you Sturdy (1) or Nimble (10)?
Are you Firm (1) or Easygoing (10)?
Are you strong Physically (1) or Magically (10)?
Are you Selfish (1) or Sacrificing (10)?
Are you Quiet (1) or Sociable (10)?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 3: Subclass

This should be filled out after you know what class you want to be, not before. These questions are a little bit different, and basically ask how you want to shift the core concept of the class, based on a polar scale of 1-5, with 3 being unchanged. For example, if you wanted to pick the Rogue, and the first question asked if you wanted to be more physical (1) or magical (5), you could pick 4 for a slight emphasis on adding magic (Arcane Trickster, Mastermind), or 1 for a huge emphasis on using physical talents (Thief, Scout).

You could also choose to say 0 to not have any preference at all. This can be important if you care more about other aspects for your perfect subclass, and that question won't be relevant for your final result.

Questions:

Do you prefer your class to become more:

Physical (1) or Magical (5)?
Simple (1) or Complex (5)?
Heroic (1) or Supportive (5)?
Risky (1) or Conservative (5)?
Melee (1) or Ranged (5)?
Holy (1) or Dark (5)?
Mobile (1) or Sturdy (5)?


Just estimating your goals (Simple + Melee, ignoring all other criteria), the top 5 recommended classes (and the recommended subclasses that focus your goals) are:


Barbarian

Totem

Monk

Long Death

Fighter

Champion
Samurai

Paladin

Ancients

Ranger

Hunter

[Nidgit]

Gotcha.. sorry for not actually stating what I was really looking for, but I wanted to roll a class that can dish out good Damage, be Tankish and have simple management (another why I didn't want to roll a full caster for example). Barbarian, Monk and Paladin felt like the best contenders. From what you said Paladin might have the edge on this one. Only Vengeance Paladin fits the bill or the other Subclasses too?

Vengeance Paladin is extremely good at murdering a single, powerful enemy. It's probably the least team-oriented Paladin and consequently the least-defensive one, as it's spells and abilities are a bit more selfish and focused on high offense. The classic Vengeance Paladin setup is to take the Defense style and Great Weapon Master feat, then save Abjure Enemy and either Hunter's Mark or Haste (depending on your level) to go full ham on the day's biggest baddie. Abjure Enemy's advantage should offset the -5 penalty from GWM, leaving you with 20+Smite damage per hit. At 9th level with Haste and a turn of set-up, that's up to about 90 damage per round if everything hits, though it will use up all your resources in the space of about three rounds and leave you with 20-40 DPR the rest of the day. That's definitely gonna melt someone's face.

Vengeance Paladin is max offense, though, so you'll be in the line of fire and taking quite a bit of damage. The other subclasses are more balanced and pick up things like immunity to the Charmed status, resistance to spell damage, and spell like Warding Bond and Stoneskin to bolster their defenses. They're still quite capable of massive nova damage but aren't pushed in that direction quite so much.

Barbarians also definitely fit the bill for what you're looking for and are probably a bit simpler than a Paladin since they don't have spells. A Barbarian Rages to start any encounter of medium difficulty or higher. Whenever it's fighting two or fewer opponents, it probably uses Reckless Attack to get advantage and guarantee hits. Most Barbarians don't have a bonus action to worry about, so the Polearm Master feat is a popular way to consistently get a bonus action attack (GWM is very popular too). At 9th level, depending on build, a Barbarian will be dealing something like 30-60 damage per round, basically every round.

The major trade-off is that Paladins depend on resources more but are more versatile as a result, while a Barbarian has a few decisions and puts up pretty consistently high damage. Both are quality tanks, but a Paladin usually depends on not getting hit due to high AC while a Barbarian expects to get hit and minimizes the damage through resistances and high HP.

[Undyne]

Im having a hard time picking one of those two classes: Open Hand Monk and Bear Totem Barbarian.

Could you guys tell me more about their:

1- Gameplay Mechanics (Combat, Social and Exploration)

2- Role in party (Dmg or Tank Potential)

3- DPR (How hard can they hit compared to other Classes?)

4- "Fun" features (What motivates you to play these Classes?)

Which one would you say is the "best" overall and why?

1. Monks are much better at exploration (Or at least scouting)

2. Totem Barbarian is a tank, while Open Hand Monk is a status inflicter.

3. Barbarians do more damage, but Monk can set your allies up for even higher numbers, especially with stunning strike.

4. Monks are fun with the idea of a martial artist, and you can flavor your attacks very nicely. I like pairing it with either Lizardfolk or Minotaur for race to abuse the natural weapons, since they are still unarmed strikes. I love the idea of a Lizardfolk eschewing weapons to charge at their foes with tooth and claw, tearing them apart.

Basically, your choices are this: Play Barbarian if you want high DPR and more tankyness, or play Monk if you want more agility and accurate attacks. Neither of them are "Better" than the other unless you look for specific things- Barbarians are more bulky than a monk, but Monks are a bit harder to hit.

[FoxDropz]

Vengeance Paladin is extremely good at murdering a single, powerful enemy. It's probably the least team-oriented Paladin and consequently the least-defensive one, as it's spells and abilities are a bit more selfish and focused on high offense. The classic Vengeance Paladin setup is to take the Defense style and Great Weapon Master feat, then save Abjure Enemy and either Hunter's Mark or Haste (depending on your level) to go full ham on the day's biggest baddie. Abjure Enemy's advantage should offset the -5 penalty from GWM, leaving you with 20+Smite damage per hit. At 9th level with Haste and a turn of set-up, that's up to about 90 damage per round if everything hits, though it will use up all your resources in the space of about three rounds and leave you with 20-40 DPR the rest of the day. That's definitely gonna melt someone's face.

Vengeance Paladin is max offense, though, so you'll be in the line of fire and taking quite a bit of damage. The other subclasses are more balanced and pick up things like immunity to the Charmed status, resistance to spell damage, and spell like Warding Bond and Stoneskin to bolster their defenses. They're still quite capable of massive nova damage but aren't pushed in that direction quite so much.

Barbarians also definitely fit the bill for what you're looking for and are probably a bit simpler than a Paladin since they don't have spells. A Barbarian Rages to start any encounter of medium difficulty or higher. Whenever it's fighting two or fewer opponents, it probably uses Reckless Attack to get advantage and guarantee hits. Most Barbarians don't have a bonus action to worry about, so the Polearm Master feat is a popular way to consistently get a bonus action attack (GWM is very popular too). At 9th level, depending on build, a Barbarian will be dealing something like 30-60 damage per round, basically every round.

The major trade-off is that Paladins depend on resources more but are more versatile as a result, while a Barbarian has a few decisions and puts up pretty consistently high damage. Both are quality tanks, but a Paladin usually depends on not getting hit due to high AC while a Barbarian expects to get hit and minimizes the damage through resistances and high HP.

Good info. Both are great tbh

[Witty Username]

If you want to take alot of damage and deal even more, go barbarian.
If you like a more suport role, stuning down opponents and using the open hand technique to help your allies and hindering your enemies, monk is very likable. Also some side stuff like great dm reactions if they try to throw you off a building.

I would personally go barbarian but that would be because I haven't played one yet where I already played a monk.