Tomb of Horrors

[kbob]

Has anyone played the 5e version AND the original? If so, what was different about it? Is the 5e version easier? Just curious. Some of my players wanted me to run it for them and “not go easy on them.” 🤷*♂️ So im looking to accommodate. I heat the original did not have saves (or at least not many) and 5e does. Is this true? That could be one way to “not go easy” i guess. Suggestions?

[Tectorman]

I can't tell you about the original, but I recently ran the 5E version, and, to a properly paranoid party, the conventional hazards simply aren't and the "no save, just die" gotcha hazards were pretty easily mitigated, too (Boots of Levitate were very useful). No one died, and the worst that happened was the "feeblemind" fog in the grotto with the Siren (which was resolved as soon as they went outside).

The good news is that the party's method of defeating Acererak wasn't permanent, so I can easily have him come back in the future. Should I decide to do so, though, he would remember that the game is Dungeons & Dragons, and that he needs more dragons to complement his dungeons.

[MustaKrakish]

We played the 2nd E Return to the Tomb of Horrors module back in the day and it's crazy hard. Insane. I was a player back then, and let me tell you, even with our high rolled stats it was brutal.
The 5E version is much easier because it is so hard to kill characters. Back then you didn't have short rests, you didn't have full hp after long rest, and death saves... you still might just get stuck, not knowing what to do next. But I won't say it's hard.

[kbob]

Thanks. Im using the 5e version in part but Im still going with save or die. All of the perception checks that dont have an equiv in the original wont apply either. The char will still have a better damage system tho (5e) and short rests really mess up that dungeon. But then again you could theoretically take as many long rests in the original as there are no wandering monsters. The DM is not to let the players know that though (just let them assume they shouldnt rest).

[micahaphone]

If players are ballsy enough to sleep in the Tomb, either some wicked nasty monsters should ambush them as they sleep, or they get attacked in their dreams.

And if you die in your dream, you die in real life! Later!

I like the thought of changing it so if you die in your dream, you're guaranteed to fail a save/die in the next leg of the dungeon. Maybe a pit trap, with necrotic gas and powerful undead just below the long spikes. You fail the dex save like a divination roll, and the gas and undead get you 3 failed saves before any healing could possibly happen. Surprise condition on the whole party.

[kbob]

0.0
I think i will keep that part of ToH as is but, sir, the dream thing will be used in a future dungeon. Like dang. That is just an evil, genius thing to do. Ha

[intregus]

I ran this a few months ago with a no holding back approach.

Spoilers ahead

The adventure makes it so acerak is unaware of the adventurers until the end. That's how I ran it too and looking back I would have done things differently.

The dungeon wasn't really hard. It's more that theres save or die effects....so if they make those saves the rest of the dungeon is kinda meh.

[georgie_leech]

I ran this a few months ago with a no holding back approach.

Spoilers ahead

The adventure makes it so acerak is unaware of the adventurers until the end. That's how I ran it too and looking back I would have done things differently.

The dungeon wasn't really hard. It's more that theres save or die effects....so if they make those saves the rest of the dungeon is kinda meh.

Acerak might not know about them, but a trio of Night Hags with all of the resources of the Tomb and their Coven at their disposal can. The Red Wizards and Ras Nsi in the earlier expeditions can also make for a more level appropriate bunch of nasties to harass the party as well. Chult doesn't lack for adversaries if you're looking for more active hindrance that doesn't involve sending an epic Lich after the party.

[Sigreid]

You should know that no one was supposed to survive the original. It was designed for a kind of last adventurer standing competition at conventions.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I have played through the 5e version twice now, and I always felt my DMs went a bit too easy on the party. As such,here are my thoughts:

1) Don't allow passive perception to auto-find traps. Instead have active investigation and perception checks

2) add in extra effects for some areas, like anti-magic rooms, rooms filled with Heavy Concealment and traps, that sort of thing

3) Use the Acererak from Tomb of Ahnniliation, I.E. full on Lich with a pair of 9th level spells.

[Theodoxus]

I had a TPK with the steamroller, but felt bad, so I allowed the wildshaped druid to "survive" and he reincarnated the paladin (who was a bronze dragonborn originally, and miraculously rolled dragonborn again (but we I had him roll a new color, and he ended up white.)) The paladin had a scroll of raise dead, and he resurrected the ranger... The party did go on to beat Acererak, but they were a lot more cautious from that point on.

Running ToH, I think I should have gone the Gygax/Wizard of Oz route and hid behind a curtain... I know for a fact, my anticipation of some of the traps tipped my players off.

[Keravath]

Acerak might not know about them, but a trio of Night Hags with all of the resources of the Tomb and their Coven at their disposal can. The Red Wizards and Ras Nsi in the earlier expeditions can also make for a more level appropriate bunch of nasties to harass the party as well. Chult doesn't lack for adversaries if you're looking for more active hindrance that doesn't involve sending an epic Lich after the party.

Just a clarification.

Tomb of Horrors is a 5E version of a dungeon from 1e that was printed in Tales from the Yawning Portal. It was supposed to be deadly but some of that relied on traps.

The dungeon at the end of Tomb of Annihilation shares some of the same themes, including being built by Acerak, buy is otherwise completely different.

[kbob]

So it seems from the original version there is no equiv of a perception check to find the poisoned, pit traps save using a 10’ pole to forcefully push at the floor at a 66% to find the traps. Another thing i like (i believe it is mentioned in 5e version as well) you have to follow the red line on the floor to get passed the first hall. This is conveniently traced over most of the traps. I take the “follow” verbiage to mean that they each have to walk across it and not fly/hover/be carried over.

[georgie_leech]

Just a clarification.

Tomb of Horrors is a 5E version of a dungeon from 1e that was printed in Tales from the Yawning Portal. It was supposed to be deadly but some of that relied on traps.

The dungeon at the end of Tomb of Annihilation shares some of the same themes, including being built by Acerak, buy is otherwise completely different.

Well, carry one then :smallredface:

[kbob]

Another thing i noticed is that there is a 76% of falling in a sprung trap if your char had an 18 dex under Gygax’s original formula. Using some math to convert to 5e mechanics, i came up with DC 20 (75% chance of falling).
18 gives a +4 dex modifier. The base being 20 (the total save attempt must be at least 20). 25% chance of success (close as i can get on D20to the 24% of Gygax’s orginal formula) would cover a 5 point spread of the die roll, in this case success of a total of 16 or more. 20 - 5 point spread = 16 (this is not 20-5=15, as 20 must be part of the spread of 5 numbers. Those 5 numbers are 1/4 or 25% of the chances of a D20 roll. So we get our five numbers to be 20, 19, 18, 17, and 16). A dex bonus of +4 (18 Dex) would get us to 20. Therefore, the DC is 20. 16+4=20. (16-20 being 25% of the possible rolls on the D20 and 1-15 being 75% of failure). This is not perfect as anyone with less than 14 dex would be a little more difficult than Gygax’s formula but anyone equal to or higher than 14 would be a little better. Also anyone with proficiency in dex saves would have a +20% chance of success (a luxury 1e chars didnt have). A +4 prof bonus at level 10 (level I’m sending them through at) is 20% of 20. They will obviously have a measurably easier time. But even with a dex 18 and prof bonus, that still leaves them with a less than 50% chance of success from falling. Moral of the story, use a 10’ pole to prod along the way (which is what Gygax expected his higher level players to do).
There are also poison saves depending on if and how many poison spikes hit you when you fall. Theres another roll for that apparently. D6: 1-3 = # of spikes that hit you each doing D6 damage and each requiring death save vs poison. 4-6 = no spikes hit.
I’ll use the same idea in determining save for poison. I just dont currently know what the DC is for “save vs poison” from 1e at 10th level and con bonuses if applicable.
I want it to be as close to the difficulty of 1e using 5e mechanics. Thoughts? (I apologize if my explanation above is confusing, i hope everyone can follow it).

[kbob]

So I will be running this in a couple of weeks. One of the potential problems I see is a spell that usually is of little concern, "detect traps". The original idea of Gygax was for his high level party to use a 10' pole to find the pit traps. Though the 5e version has a DC to find the traps via searching, the original had no chance of detecting the traps through observation. You had to spring its preferably with the pole and not yourself. Anyway, I don't believe there was a "detect traps" spell in 1e. I know the 3e version gave you bonuses on spotting traps. 5e auto succeeds. I do realize that it does not give the location and it only gives the "nature" of the hazard (which is what traditionally makes this spell a poor choice in 5e) but part of the challenge for ToH is surprise on all fronts. This could change things and I know some players already talking about about getting the spell. I have strove to give no spoilers and told them that they cannot research anything about the adventure. However, people talk and some of the players know it's trap heavy. I do have more interest in from players than open seats and we will be doing a game-a-thon for the weekend (several DnD games going on at once) so I can pick and choose but it still poses a potential problem (one Gygax did not have to be concerned with otherwise I believe he would have planned for it, i.e. like if players go ethereal or incorporeal, each round they stay in that state, have the chance of demons showing up and attacking). Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this while keeping the original spirit of the adventure? I thought about fog on the ground (detect traps demands line of sight) but the players need to see the red line on the ground to follow it.

[MeeposFire]

So I will be running this in a couple of weeks. One of the potential problems I see is a spell that usually is of little concern, "detect traps". The original idea of Gygax was for his high level party to use a 10' pole to find the pit traps. Though the 5e version has a DC to find the traps via searching, the original had no chance of detecting the traps through observation. You had to spring its preferably with the pole and not yourself. Anyway, I don't believe there was a "detect traps" spell in 1e. I know the 3e version gave you bonuses on spotting traps. 5e auto succeeds. I do realize that it does not give the location and it only gives the "nature" of the hazard (which is what traditionally makes this spell a poor choice in 5e) but part of the challenge for ToH is surprise on all fronts. This could change things and I know some players already talking about about getting the spell. I have strove to give no spoilers and told them that they cannot research anything about the adventure. However, people talk and some of the players know it's trap heavy. I do have more interest in from players than open seats and we will be doing a game-a-thon for the weekend (several DnD games going on at once) so I can pick and choose but it still poses a potential problem (one Gygax did not have to be concerned with otherwise I believe he would have planned for it, i.e. like if players go ethereal or incorporeal, each round they stay in that state, have the chance of demons showing up and attacking). Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this while keeping the original spirit of the adventure? I thought about fog on the ground (detect traps demands line of sight) but the players need to see the red line on the ground to follow it.

There was a detect traps spell back in 1e but note that there are people out there that would tell you that a number of the encounters are not actually traps and the spell would not apply. It tends to be the more permissive you are with allowing something similar to detect traps to apply to the encounters the easier the adventure becomes.