Imprisoning a Mirror Mephit with mundane stuff

[newguydude1]

According to Complete Mage you can use planar binding to trap a creature in a mundane cage.
And artificer can create a scroll of planar binding at level 1. So I want to use planar binding to trap a mirror mephit into a cage at level 1.

I prefer a mundane cage over magic circle because, at his level even with metamagic scroll extend spell, the circle will fade in 2 days. And since I only have a 50% chance of succeeding the charisma check, I don't think I can bind him 2 days. And there's always the threat of rolling a 1 resulting in him breaking free. But by using a mundane cage I can take as long as I need to beat that charisma check even if it takes weeks and I don't have to worry about rolling a natural one.

So I was thinking the cage would be barely big enough to hold a squeezing mirror mephit, and is a metal box with holes instead of having bars. That way the mirror mephit doesn't have line of effect to anything, nor have enough space to create a simulacrum of anything. I checked, there is no outsider smaller than tiny whose hd is 1-7 which is the only creatures the mephit knows because of his +7 to knowledge the planes check, and a tiny creature can't share a space with a squeezing mephit.

So I think I got it. metal box half the size of a small creature with holes in it. One hole is 1ftx1ft with a door so that I have line of effect inside the cage when casting planar binding and then an ally will shut it and lock it once the spell fires. He can't move, attack, or cast at anything outside the box, nor can he create a monster that can help him break the box. So I think I got it.

But since mirror mephits will tpk a level 1 party, i want to see if i missed anything. Did I make a mistake anywhere?

[Hellpyre]

According to Complete Mage you can use planar binding to trap a creature in a mundane cage.
...
So I think I got it. metal box half the size of a small creature with holes in it. One hole is 1ftx1ft with a door so that I have line of effect inside the cage when casting planar binding and then an ally will shut it and lock it once the spell fires. He can't move, attack, or cast at anything outside the box, nor can he create a monster that can help him break the box. So I think I got it.

But since mirror mephits will tpk a level 1 party, i want to see if i missed anything. Did I make a mistake anywhere?

Well, for one thing you can't summon a creature into a space that's too small for it, so you can't use a cage that is smaller than its size. Second, a creature is not only going to be familiar with creatures through knowledge checks. It would also be familiar with some Outsiders via direct contact. Finally, unless the passage you refer to in Complete Mage (do you mind giving the page number, by the way? I couldn't find it in a quick scan, and I don't want to search the whole book to find it) rules otherwise somehow, the creature can return to its native plane once it beats the Charisma check in the Planar Binding spell, so holding it indefinitely in a mundane cage won't work terribly well.

[gogogome]

Well, for one thing you can't summon a creature into a space that's too small for it, so you can't use a cage that is smaller than its size.

A creature can fit into a space that is half their normal size.


Finally, unless the passage you refer to in Complete Mage (do you mind giving the page number, by the way? I couldn't find it in a quick scan, and I don't want to search the whole book to find it) rules otherwise somehow, the creature can return to its native plane once it beats the Charisma check in the Planar Binding spell, so holding it indefinitely in a mundane cage won't work terribly well.

Those rules are only for a magic circle trap.

Planar Binding doesn't need a trap. You can call a creature into an open space if you wanted to. As for the complete mage quote


4th—Dimensional Anchor: This spell is instrumental in preventing creatures that are summoned using the planar binding spells from escaping with teleportation or imensional
shifting abilities. Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well.

But it's irrelevant. As I mentioned you can call a creature to anywhere within close range of you.

[Hellpyre]

Well, per the PHB

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward
And later

The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you.

So as far as I can see, the spell ends if the creature beats the check.

On the other point - while a creature can fit into a space smaller than its size, it can't be summoned into a space that can't support its size. In much the same way that a PC can swim in water, but can't teleport into water.

[gogogome]

Well, per the PHB

And later


So as far as I can see, the spell ends if the creature beats the check.

The spell has duration:instantaneous so the spell ends when you call the creature. If you make the charisma check a new (non-dispel-able) effect is created whose duration is whatever you and the creature agree upon, be it 1 day or 1000 years.

The escape description is repeated in the magic circle against evil spell description so Planar Binding was just repeating what happens when you use magic circle against evil as the trap.

There are plenty of alternate traps used throughout d&d. Eberron for example, lets you use Khyber dragonshards instead of magic circle.

And as I mentioned before, there's nothing stopping you from calling the creature into an open space, magic circle, cage, or box. And Complete Mage just confirms it.


On the other point - while a creature can fit into a space smaller than its size, it can't be summoned into a space that can't support its size. In much the same way that a PC can swim in water, but can't teleport into water.

I don't see how a space you can fit into isn't a space that can support its size.

[newguydude1]

I hope gogogome is right.

[Hellpyre]

The escape description is repeated in the magic circle against evil spell description so Planar Binding was just repeating what happens when you use magic circle against evil as the trap.


Other way around. The magic circle against evil description only notes that using a calling diagram increases the DC of CHA checks to escape, but refers to planar binding, lesser for an example of when that matters. It doesn't provide any sort of base DC for the escape, because that is a property of the planar binding.

For the space, you don't summon a creature contorted into a 'squeezing' position. The spell fails if the space is not enough for the creature to occupy normally. If your DM is particularly mean, it may instead shunt the called creature to the nearest open space that supports it - I.E. out of your cage.

I also would also generally recommend you ask your DM before attempting if you want to use the mephit for early simulacrum access, as they may shut you down anyways if you go beyond the optimization level of the group, or alternately they can provide a definitive yes to your setup working for their campaign.

[gogogome]

Other way around. The magic circle against evil description only notes that using a calling diagram increases the DC of CHA checks to escape, but refers to planar binding, lesser for an example of when that matters. It doesn't provide any sort of base DC for the escape, because that is a property of the planar binding.

You raise an interesting point. It's not the other way around, but both mixed. Lesser Planar Binding has the rules on escaping and magic circle has rules on the calling diagram. But this is irrelevant. You can call the creature anywhere within range, be it in a cage, in a trap, or out in the open. Or use alternatives like dragonshards.


For the space, you don't summon a creature contorted into a 'squeezing' position. The spell fails if the space is not enough for the creature to occupy normally. If your DM is particularly mean, it may instead shunt the called creature to the nearest open space that supports it - I.E. out of your cage.

We agree that the target space must be big enough for the creature to fit.
I believe a space a creature can barely fit inside is big enough to support it. You don't.
There is no rule saying it has to support the creature's full range of arm motions, so I think you're wrong here.

I'm picturing a wizard trapped in an air duct summoning a creature to get him out. I think he should be able to summon a smushed creature that can push him the other way.


I also would also generally recommend you ask your DM before attempting if you want to use the mephit for early simulacrum access, as they may shut you down anyways if you go beyond the optimization level of the group, or alternately they can provide a definitive yes to your setup working for their campaign.

I'm assuming he got permission. At least I hope so. This is some severely optimized stuff we're discussing here.

[newguydude1]

I'm assuming he got permission. At least I hope so. This is some severely optimized stuff we're discussing here.

I got permission. I just need to know if it works.

[Hellpyre]

I got permission. I just need to know if it works.

Well, why not ask your DM if they're on-board? They are the person whose opinion really holds wait. I think the two of us discussing this has shown that it could reasonably swing either way, but it really comes down to how the DM chooses to rule it. If they say it should work...it works.

[Hellpyre]

We agree that the target space must be big enough for the creature to fit.
I believe a space a creature can barely fit inside is big enough to support it. You don't.
There is no rule saying it has to support the creature's full range of arm motions, so I think you're wrong here.


The rules are fairly vague, but they do specify an "open area". Or more specifically


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I would take that, along with the fluff of binding, to mean that you'll almost certainly have the spell fail if you try to call it into a cage it needs to squeeze into. I'm fairly certain you take it to mean there isn't any other solid matter there.

Would you be willing to agree that both interpretations can be considered reasonable, even if we both disagree about which side we come down on?

[newguydude1]

The rules are fairly vague, but they do specify an "open area". Or more specifically



I would take that, along with the fluff of binding, to mean that you'll almost certainly have the spell fail if you try to call it into a cage it needs to squeeze into. I'm fairly certain you take it to mean there isn't any other solid matter there.

Would you be willing to agree that both interpretations can be considered reasonable, even if we both disagree about which side we come down on?

I can make the box an animated object temporarily so it can squeeze the mephit and i can drop something heavy on top of the box.

So like a cage without a top, and a heavy top that when put on the cage correctly, will fall to the bottom, flattening anything inside the cage.

Mirror mephit has 8 str so the most he can lift is 80lbs so i have a 100lb top to smush him with.

So I call the mephit in a cage, then the animated object cage releases its hold on the 100lb top immediately and the top smushes the mephit so that he can't move or have any space to create creatures with. And then I permanently affix the top of the cage to that position so the mephit is forever smushed even when the animated object spell runs out or I move the cage around.

Would this work? It's a normal sized cage that immediately becomes half sized the moment the mephit gets called into there.

[Hellpyre]

I can make the box an animated object temporarily so it can squeeze the mephit and i can drop something heavy on top of the box.


Unlike the other plan, which is ambiguously a no, that plan is explicitly a no. An animated object is considered a creature, and conjuration spells can't place a creature inside another creature. You'd probably do better to just have a larger cage or a magic circle with calling diagram, and just get an idiot fighter, or some other, previously bound monster, to wrestle it into a secondary cage afterwards. Or just dismiss it if you fail the attempt to bargain and try again with a magic circle every time. More expensive, certainly, but much more safe and unambigous.

[newguydude1]

Unlike the other plan, which is ambiguously a no, that plan is explicitly a no. An animated object is considered a creature, and conjuration spells can't place a creature inside another creature. You'd probably do better to just have a larger cage or a magic circle with calling diagram, and just get an idiot fighter, or some other, previously bound monster, to wrestle it into a secondary cage afterwards. Or just dismiss it if you fail the attempt to bargain and try again with a magic circle every time. More expensive, certainly, but much more safe and unambigous.

Ok how about this.

Cage with no top.
A top of the cage that weighs 100lbs and when properly placed falls down to the floor, smushing anything under it.
An animated object that has 12 str holding the top of the cage up.

I call into the cage, the animated object releases the top immediately as a readied action, the top falls and smushes the mirror mephit. Then I permanenlty affix the top to that position by welding it or something.

[Hellpyre]

Then you need space for a medium object in the cage even with the lid down, which probably defeats the point of trying to smoosh it. If you're dead-set on trying to bind it in place without a circle, why not ready-action hold monster on it, then affix it in place with antimagic manacles (courtesy of A&EG, IIRC), or even just weld its arms and legs directly to the floor with heavy chains? Muzzle it if the breath weapon worries you.

[newguydude1]

Then you need space for a medium object in the cage even with the lid down, which probably defeats the point of trying to smoosh it. If you're dead-set on trying to bind it in place without a circle, why not ready-action hold monster on it, then affix it in place with antimagic manacles (courtesy of A&EG, IIRC), or even just weld its arms and legs directly to the floor with heavy chains? Muzzle it if the breath weapon worries you.

The object is holding the lid from the outside. It's a small cage for a small creature and the animated object is medium sized. So AO is outside holding up the lid with two hands like it's a box, mephit is inside the cage, AO releases lid and it smooshes the mephit inside.

I'm trying to do this at level 1 so advance stuff isn't really an option. My character is gonna have a simulacrum robot fight for him while he heals it with repair damage. If I get mirror mephit at level 1 then I can have my robot healing character at level 1.

He said at level 1 i can create a clockroach or homunculus simulacrum cause they are cr1.

[gogogome]

Would you be willing to agree that both interpretations can be considered reasonable, even if we both disagree about which side we come down on?

Reasonable? Yes. We're not dealing with mechanical terms. "Open space" is open to interpretation.


The object is holding the lid from the outside. It's a small cage for a small creature and the animated object is medium sized. So AO is outside holding up the lid with two hands like it's a box, mephit is inside the cage, AO releases lid and it smooshes the mephit inside.

I'm trying to do this at level 1 so advance stuff isn't really an option. My character is gonna have a simulacrum robot fight for him while he heals it with repair damage. If I get mirror mephit at level 1 then I can have my robot healing character at level 1.

He said at level 1 i can create a clockroach or homunculus simulacrum cause they are cr1.


Nice plan. As an added bonus the mephit won't be able to move at all. You can't move when something heavy is on top of you.

[Hellpyre]

I'm trying to do this at level 1 so advance stuff isn't really an option. My character is gonna have a simulacrum robot fight for him while he heals it with repair damage. If I get mirror mephit at level 1 then I can have my robot healing character at level 1.

How are you paying for this? Assuming you've swung Sublime Chord casting for making spell scrolls, animating an object is still way out of normal price range. CL 3 × Spell level 6 × 12.5gp = 225gp

And just the scroll of planar binding will run you 62.5gp, which is a pretty big chunk on its own, especially considering you still need to strike a baragin with the mephit.

You are already looking at a pretty penny. You may simply need to adventure for some capital either way.

[newguydude1]

How are you paying for this? Assuming you've swung Sublime Chord casting for making spell scrolls, animating an object is still way out of normal price range. CL 3 × Spell level 6 × 12.5gp = 225gp

And just the scroll of planar binding will run you 62.5gp, which is a pretty big chunk on its own, especially considering you still need to strike a baragin with the mephit.

You are already looking at a pretty penny. You may simply need to adventure for some capital either way.

I cast personal weapon augmentation on a quarterstaff or a medium statue to give it the +1 flying property. Flying weapons are animated objects except with less hp.

Each scroll costs me 5 x 2 x 12.5 = 125gp. So every time I make 125gp I'm gonna attempt to bind a mirror mephit.

I don't need to pay anything to the mephit. He's in a predicament and that's my leverage. He will work for me for 1 minute and then go back home so it's not unreasonable at all. I'm gonna have him create a simulacrum of a mirror mephit and order it to obey me so I can make all the simulacrum i want.

[Hellpyre]

Each scroll costs me 5 x 2 x 12.5 = 125gp. So every time I make 125gp I'm gonna attempt to bind a mirror mephit.

If you're cheeseing anyways on the assumption of a Sublime Chord with one caster levels but the ability to cast 3rd level spells, why assume an extra caster level at all? It's accessible by a first level SC with only one in-class caster level, so if your theoretical emulated caster got in via racial casting or something, why give it a second caster level and reduce your cheese? Go with 62.5gp if you've already gotten this much greenlighted.


I don't need to pay anything to the mephit. He's in a predicament and that's my leverage. He will work for me for 1 minute and then go back home so it's not unreasonable at all. I'm gonna have him create a simulacrum of a mirror mephit and order it to obey me so I can make all the simulacrum i want.

You don't need to, but bargaining is a far faster way to get it to say yes to your demands. Especially since you want it to use a spell-like ability (which inherits casting time) to replicate a 12-hour cast time spell. And since it can attempt to summon another mirror mephit each hour, and you can only attempt to bargain each day, it can probably win a contest of wills if it isn't fenced in magically.

[newguydude1]

If you're cheeseing anyways on the assumption of a Sublime Chord with one caster levels but the ability to cast 3rd level spells, why assume an extra caster level at all? It's accessible by a first level SC with only one in-class caster level, so if your theoretical emulated caster got in via racial casting or something, why give it a second caster level and reduce your cheese? Go with 62.5gp if you've already gotten this much greenlighted.

Isn't minimum caster level 2? 1 wizard + 1 sublime chord = 2. You say racial caster level but i am not familiar with that trick. Could you explain?


You don't need to, but bargaining is a far faster way to get it to say yes to your demands. Especially since you want it to use a spell-like ability (which inherits casting time) to replicate a 12-hour cast time spell. And since it can attempt to summon another mirror mephit each hour, and you can only attempt to bargain each day, it can probably win a contest of wills if it isn't fenced in magically.

Oh I forgot about casting time. Thank you for reminding me. That 12 hour make it look a lot weaker.

It can only attempt to summon a mephit each day. It lasts 1 hour but the cooldown is a day. Also he has no room to summon mephit remember? he is smooshed, no room to summon mephit, and the cage bars are close together so that there is no line of effect outside the cage. You need 1ft x 1ft hole to have line of effect for summoning.

So the only thing he can do is stay smooshed until he accepts my binding.

[Hellpyre]

Isn't minimum caster level 2? 1 wizard + 1 sublime chord = 2. You say racial caster level but i am not familiar with that trick. Could you explain?

You qualify for Sublime Chord via ability to cast level 3 arcane spells and the Bardic Music ability, plus some heavy skill prereqs. Wiz 1 doesn't do much to help qualify. What you want is a Firre with Southern Magician ( and Knowledge: Local [Mulan] to qualify for that feat), since it can take skills to qualify for the PrC without any other classes.


It can only attempt to summon a mephit each day. It lasts 1 hour but the cooldown is a day. Also he has no room to summon mephit remember? he is smooshed, no room to summon mephit, and the cage bars are close together so that there is no line of effect outside the cage. You need 1ft x 1ft hole to have line of effect for summoning.

It can try once per hour according to the statblock. It has some issues with being unclear on how long it lasts, but if we defer to the summon mirror mephit spell we can assume it lasts only a few rounds. I assume you need enough space to communicate clearly with the mephit that it could get a finger or tail out between a bar and get line of effect via that. It doesn't work as well to trap a mephit, since you run up against the 'occupying another creature's space' issue. If it can't reach a digit through, your bargain is probably muffled by the solid cage and might well not involve the terms you expected to hear.

[newguydude1]

You qualify for Sublime Chord via ability to cast level 3 arcane spells and the Bardic Music ability, plus some heavy skill prereqs. Wiz 1 doesn't do much to help qualify. What you want is a Firre with Southern Magician ( and Knowledge: Local [Mulan] to qualify for that feat), since it can take skills to qualify for the PrC without any other classes.

I'm not optimizing sublime chord. I'm trying to get lowest possible CL for sublime chord which is why I have wizard.

Firre confuses me. Sublime chord says you MUST add SC CL to an arcane spellcasting class so if you don't have at least one arcane spellcasting class, what would happen?


It can try once per hour according to the statblock. It has some issues with being unclear on how long it lasts, but if we defer to the summon mirror mephit spell we can assume it lasts only a few rounds. I assume you need enough space to communicate clearly with the mephit that it could get a finger or tail out between a bar and get line of effect via that. It doesn't work as well to trap a mephit, since you run up against the 'occupying another creature's space' issue. If it can't reach a digit through, your bargain is probably muffled by the solid cage and might well not involve the terms you expected to hear.

Oh you're right, once per hour. It lasts 1 hour though because all summon by monsters last 1 hour no matter what. Its somewhere in the d20srd.

There is space between the bars so there is room and space for voices to travel. I don't need finger or tail between bar because I only need voice to communicate. It can make a deal with me while smooshed and trapped. It only need to move its mouth. Important part is there is no open space for another small or tiny creature.

Room for voice but no room for finger.

[Hellpyre]

I'm not optimizing sublime chord. I'm trying to get lowest possible CL for sublime chord which is why I have wizard.

Firre confuses me. Sublime chord says you MUST add SC CL to an arcane spellcasting class so if you don't have at least one arcane spellcasting class, what would happen?


Then it adds to zero, and you end up with CL 1. You already need your theoretical spell base to have Bardic Music and the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells. Firre is good because it can satisfy both of those with racial abilities and a few feats, as well as most of the skill requirements with racial HD.

[Crake]

And artificer can create a scroll of planar binding at level 1.

Umm, hold up a minute. Where are you getting this from? Nothing in the artificer description implies you can create scrolls of 5th level spells at level 1. You'd need to be at least a 7th level artificer to create a scroll of a 5th level spell.

[Hellpyre]

Umm, hold up a minute. Where are you getting this from? Nothing in the artificer description implies you can create scrolls of 5th level spells at level 1. You'd need to be at least a 7th level artificer to create a scroll of a 5th level spell.

The idea behind this (and it is massively cheesy optimization stuff) is that you (or rather a theoretical caster mold) can enter Sublime Chord via cheese without the normal caster levels needed to satisfy the 3rd level spellcasting prereq. Then, the 5th level spell, picked up at level 1 of Sublime Chord, has a minimum CL of 1 and falls under the Artificer level+2 crafting rule. So you make a scroll following that mold.

It wouldn't fly at my table, but the DM in this case has apparently okayed it.

[Crake]

The idea behind this (and it is massively cheesy optimization stuff) is that you (or rather a theoretical caster mold) can enter Sublime Chord via cheese without the normal caster levels needed to satisfy the 3rd level spellcasting prereq. Then, the 5th level spell, picked up at level 1 of Sublime Chord, has a minimum CL of 1 and falls under the Artificer level+2 crafting rule. So you make a scroll following that mold.

It wouldn't fly at my table, but the DM in this case has apparently okayed it.

Except there's no such thing as a "sublime chord" spell, there's only Sorc/Wiz spells, and Bard spells, which have pre-determined minimum caster levels for crafting. If sublime chord had it's own spell list, this argument MIGHT fly, but it doesn't so it doesn't.

[gogogome]

Except there's no such thing as a "sublime chord" spell, there's only Sorc/Wiz spells, and Bard spells, which have pre-determined minimum caster levels for crafting. If sublime chord had it's own spell list, this argument MIGHT fly, but it doesn't so it doesn't.

according to your logic, ur-priests can't cast cleric spells due to lack of caster level because they only cast cleric spells.
And according to your logic, ur-priests can't scribe scrolls despite having the feat because of lack of caster level.

Also, what is the minimum caster level for sor/wiz spells? For alter self, is it 3? or is it 4? or does it depend on the creator of the scroll? As in the minimum CL is the minimum CL required for that character to cast the spell?

Ur-priest spell lists I might consider PO but this SC trick does seem like TO.

[newguydude1]

Except there's no such thing as a "sublime chord" spell, there's only Sorc/Wiz spells, and Bard spells, which have pre-determined minimum caster levels for crafting. If sublime chord had it's own spell list, this argument MIGHT fly, but it doesn't so it doesn't.

Ok I don't use sublime chord. I use nar demonbinder.

Wizard7/Sorcerer1/Nardemonbinder 1

Nar Demonbinder has its own spell list so it flies

CL is 1 sorcerer + 1 nar demonbinder = 2

Cost of scroll is 4 x 2 x 12.5 = 100gp

[Crake]

What's stopping you from

a) making the box of a decent enough size to contain the mephit, and
b) just putting a magic circle at the bottom of the cage?

If you're an artificer, why not create a permanent magical circle item so you don't have to worry about duration?

[newguydude1]

What's stopping you from

a) making the box of a decent enough size to contain the mephit, and

Him having space to summon another mephit or create a simulacrum of an outsider that can break the box.

See post 14 for new plan. Hellpyre think current plan not work because "open space"


b) just putting a magic circle at the bottom of the cage?

Costs money to make magic circle. 1st level PC really poor. Adds 75gp per planar binding attempt.


If you're an artificer, why not create a permanent magical circle item so you don't have to worry about duration?

DM says no custom items.

[Crake]

Just so you know by the way, this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Just one wrong move and you'll have a summoned mirror mephit on the loose, which will make a simulacrum of another mirror mephit, which will summon another mirror mephit and make a simulacrum of another mirror mephit, and so on, until you suddenly have a full on infestation of mirror mephits wreaking havoc.

[gogogome]

Just so you know by the way, this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Just one wrong move and you'll have a summoned mirror mephit on the loose, which will make a simulacrum of another mirror mephit, which will summon another mirror mephit and make a simulacrum of another mirror mephit, and so on, until you suddenly have a full on infestation of mirror mephits wreaking havoc.

Incorrect.

First the summoned creature doesn't last 12 hours to create the simulacrum.
Second, summoned creatures cannot use SLAs that normally cost expensive material components or XP
Third, all effects of the summoned creature end when the summoned creature returns to its plane.

So even if the mirror mephit manages to successfully summon a mirror mephit, the best it can do is directly attack the PCs or help lift the lid off of the mirror mephit.

[Crake]

Incorrect.

First the summoned creature doesn't last 12 hours to create the simulacrum.

As an SLA, the simulacrum is cast as a standard action unless otherwise noted, regardless of the spell's normal casting time. Mirror mephit's don't have any notes that change this, so their simulacrum SLA is a standard action.


Second, summoned creatures cannot use SLAs that normally cost expensive material components or XP

Fair point, I forgot about this rule, though it only applies to spells that would normally cost XP, expensive material components are fine.


Third, all effects of the summoned creature end when the summoned creature returns to its plane.

The actual wording is that "all the spells it has cast expire." Since simulacrum is an instantaneous spell, it would remain, as the magic has already expired, though that's largely irrelevant, since as we've already established, summoned mirror mephits can't create simulacra.


So even if the mirror mephit manages to successfully summon a mirror mephit, the best it can do is directly attack the PCs or help lift the lid off of the mirror mephit.

Ok, so we can ignore the summon part of summon, and then simulacra, so the mirror mephits won't multiply exponentially, they'll merely multiply linearly, as the first simulacra then creates a second, which creates a third, and so on. Either way, its still a disaster.

[gogogome]

As an SLA, the simulacrum is cast as a standard action unless otherwise noted, regardless of the spell's normal casting time. Mirror mephit's don't have any notes that change this, so their simulacrum SLA is a standard action..

Here's the full quote


A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated

So it will take 12 hours unless otherwise noted. Not the other way around.

A mirror mephit is too powerful for a 1st level party to deal with because of its flight, breath attack, DR, SR, and fast healing. So a summoned mirror mephit will still end the party and help the original escape.

[Crake]

Here's the full quote



So it will take 12 hours unless otherwise noted. Not the other way around.

A mirror mephit is too powerful for a 1st level party to deal with because of its flight, breath attack, DR, SR, and fast healing. So a summoned mirror mephit will still end the party and help the original escape.

Yeah, so i actually just found that, you're pulling that of d20srd.org.

I had a look at d20srd, and note that the SRD specifically says that SLAs use the same casting time as the spell, however in no actual sourcebook or errata can I find any mention of SLAs working that way, nor does the official, downloadable 3.5e SRD state that anywhere. Rules compendium specifically added that SLAs that mimic spells that have a casting time less than 1 standard action use that instead, but that otherwise it defaults to 1 standard action, so it looks like d20srd has started adding it's own little homebrew spin on things. Time to cross them off my list of sites to use, or recommend to people to use.

[gogogome]

Yeah, so i actually just found that, you're pulling that of d20srd.org.

I had a look at d20srd, and note that the SRD specifically says that SLAs use the same casting time as the spell, however in no actual sourcebook or errata can I find any mention of SLAs working that way, nor does the official, downloadable 3.5e SRD state that anywhere. Rules compendium specifically added that SLAs that mimic spells that have a casting time less than 1 standard action use that instead, but that otherwise it defaults to 1 standard action, so it looks like d20srd has started adding it's own little homebrew spin on things. Time to cross them off my list of sites to use, or recommend to people to use.

That is disappointing. Very good catch.

However, i'm pretty sure the spell description counts as "noted otherwise". SLAs that take less than 1 standard action gets their casting time reduced, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?

So the point of contention here is does the spell description count as "noted otherwise"?

[Crake]

That is disappointing. Very good catch.

However, i'm pretty sure the spell description counts as "noted otherwise". SLAs that take less than 1 standard action gets their casting time reduced, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?

So the point of contention here is does the spell description count as "noted otherwise"?

Well, considering that the rules had to specifically call out that spells with less than a standard action have their time reduced, that would seem to imply that spells above a standard action do not, unless specifically stated otherwise. I do believe there is precedent of SLAs having explicit casting times longer or shorter than a standard action mentioned in the monster statblock, or listed under the ability, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[gogogome]

Well, considering that the rules had to specifically call out that spells with less than a standard action have their time reduced, that would seem to imply that spells above a standard action do not, unless specifically stated otherwise. I do believe there is precedent of SLAs having explicit casting times longer or shorter than a standard action mentioned in the monster statblock, or listed under the ability, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Seeing how you have to look up the spell the SLA is duplicating and use its Range, Target, descriptor, school, etc. I think it's silly to exclude the casting time especially since Range, which is something you definitely use, is right under it. I think it's more reasonable to treat the casting time block as "noted otherwise" than ignoring it since you're essentially copying and pasting the entire spell description into the monster's stat block.

[Crake]

Seeing how you have to look up the spell the SLA is duplicating and use its Range, Target, descriptor, school, etc. I think it's silly to exclude the casting time especially since Range, which is something you definitely use, is right under it. I think it's more reasonable to treat the casting time block as "noted otherwise" than ignoring it since you're essentially copying and pasting the entire spell description into the monster's stat block.

Well, I mean, again, if that were the case, then you wouldn't need to specify that spells with a cast time of less than a standard action use that instead, would you?

[gogogome]

Well, I mean, again, if that were the case, then you wouldn't need to specify that spells with a cast time of less than a standard action use that instead, would you?

Ok I concede. Rules of the Game article specifically says ability description not spell description.

I've been reversing a lot of rulings lately. First the persistent touch spells. Now this.

[Calthropstu]

Wasn't there a thread a little bit ago that proved RAW planar binding auto fails and never works?

[Hellpyre]

Yeah, so i actually just found that, you're pulling that of d20srd.org.

I had a look at d20srd, and note that the SRD specifically says that SLAs use the same casting time as the spell, however in no actual sourcebook or errata can I find any mention of SLAs working that way, nor does the official, downloadable 3.5e SRD state that anywhere. Rules compendium specifically added that SLAs that mimic spells that have a casting time less than 1 standard action use that instead, but that otherwise it defaults to 1 standard action, so it looks like d20srd has started adding it's own little homebrew spin on things. Time to cross them off my list of sites to use, or recommend to people to use.

It is unfortunate that I must do the same. Apparently they also pulled some things from Sage Advice, the FAQs, and other sources. This is the first time I've run against this issue there, but I guess I'm back to searching my .RTFs again for rule purposes.

[Ruethgar]

Sad, d20 SRD is such a useful source. Will probably be phasing it out a good bit as well. Wish they at least referenced their sources, would be so much easier to verify information.