Monstrous spellcasters can never afford to make anything

[Destro2119]

The classic DnD scenario of the evil shaman of some monstrous race brewing potions to bolster the power of his minions is a trope that I personally like. However, upon reading the base costs to brew potions in the 3.5 DMG, I struggle to realize how any shaman is expected to brew even the most basic potions. Where the hell are they supposed to get 150 gp to brew so much as a single potion of Bull's Strength!? I mean, there can't be THAT many random adventurers with that much cash just prancing around in the wilderness, and goats and pigs of the local extorted farmers can't be worth THAT much, especially not on a consistent basis.

[Buufreak]

You do understand that the 150gp used in said item creation feat represents the amount of valuable goods needed to brew the potion? He doesn't need 150gp, he needs 150gp worth of potion making stuff.

[liquidformat]

Yeah this is one area that D&D kind of ignores when it makes money king. That tribe of savage tribe could be cultivating very rare magical herbs that are used to make potions, or else killing magical beasts to use their body parts to make salves. The gold itself is just an abstract quantitative representation of the pricing of said ingredients.

[Ruethgar]

Spell Side Effects are allowed to be picked by the caster purposefully. Pick Gem Creation and you can have gems to grind up into potions for the cost. Pick Grass Growth and grow sugarcane, bamboo, wheat, rice etc. to sell or subsidize other workers so they can get you something more profitable. Technically Wish can be a side effect if you are using the Greater Rod of Wonder charts. DM fiat also works. You can sacrifice things via Book of Vile Darkness to help with crafting. Agony and Ambrosia are another way, torture before sacrifice means all the more crafting for you!

[Tvtyrant]

Myconid sovereigns can make a slew of potions as EX items. In base D&D I assume a trade in myconid spores and potions would be pretty brisk, and for tribal people could be made with spear heads and blankets.

[Kayblis]

When you brew a potion, you're not literally grabbing 150 gold pieces and throwing it in the cauldron as you cast a spell. There's more to the world than just how many shinies of a specific variety you have. Also, monsters don't need to follow player rules, their gathering of materials and brewing is represented as the potion in question counting towards their total treasure. I hope you don't make monsters literally drop gold pieces when the PCs kill one.

[Troacctid]

Monsters have NPC wealth just like everyone else.

[Tvtyrant]

When you brew a potion, you're not literally grabbing 150 gold pieces and throwing it in the cauldron as you cast a spell. There's more to the world than just how many shinies of a specific variety you have. Also, monsters don't need to follow player rules, their gathering of materials and brewing is represented as the potion in question counting towards their total treasure. I hope you don't make monsters literally drop gold pieces when the PCs kill one.

One setting I did gemstones were literally dragon scales, which they only shed on death. This made a lot of magic dependent on dragonslaying, and their wealth was themselves.

[Buufreak]

One setting I did gemstones were literally dragon scales, which they only shed on death. This made a lot of magic dependent on dragonslaying, and their wealth was themselves.

And while that may be an interesting take, it is a homebrew variant, and in no way the set standard.

[Tiktakkat]

Look up the price of traps next.

Then accept that all manufacturing costs, mundane and magical, apply only to PCs, in a desperate attempt to slow them down and keep them from hoarding more coins than every dragon in every setting in every campaign combined.

[denthor]

If you mean evil races.

Human sacrifice can be used for different things.

Example my Hobgoblin cleric of Toldoth would sacrifice trolls on a large portal alter at the correct time channel the blood into vials. Since trolls were 5 hit dice the vials contained 2nd level healing spells from that spell slot.

Bonus was given ingredient no good person would use it. So by accepting the option you accepted her God and drank blood healing. Nudge towards evil win win for a sacrifice, nudge towards acceptance of evil.

[Tvtyrant]

And while that may be an interesting take, it is a homebrew variant, and in no way the set standard.

So what? You said "I hope you don't" have them drop gold directly, so I was sharing a setting where they do and it works. How many of us are rolling on the random loot tables anyway?

[Buufreak]

You do understand that the 150gp used in said item creation feat represents the amount of valuable goods needed to brew the potion? He doesn't need 150gp, he needs 150gp worth of potion making stuff.


So what? You said "I hope you don't" have them drop gold directly, so I was sharing a setting where they do and it works. How many of us are rolling on the random loot tables anyway?

I did no such thing, sir or madame.

[Tvtyrant]

I did no such thing, sir or madame.

Sorry, I mixed up you and Kaybliss. Mea culpa.

[rel]

I've always assumed that magic item crafting components are refined from plants, animals and minerals that can be found out in the wilds where said monsters live using survival.

In your stereotypical shaman led monster village of hunter gatherers one of the things the monsters will gather (in addition to food and adventurer skulls) are crafting components for the shaman.

If we use the profession skill rule to determine how many supplies a monster will find gathering supplies in the woods with survival we get 1/2 check result in GP for a weeks work.

If we assume a village of 50 monsters with no bonus in survival and further divide the results by 2 because monsters have other stuff going on (like ineffectually guarding the latrines and menacing peasants) we get:

check result 10 / 2 = 5 GP per week X 50 monsters / 2 FOS = 125GP per week. Even a very conservative model allows a small tribe to easily make a potion every few weeks.

[Malphegor]

This does have the side effect of making evil rituals in caves relatively rare and means they get noticed when it happens because of the rare components/gold value needed is an effort.

Which means it gets adventurer attention.

[ShurikVch]

On the similar note: creation of Lich's phylactery costs 120000 gp; NPC gear is 100000 gp at 17th level, and 130000 gp - at 18th...

[Falontani]

First from a 3.0 book!


A character who’s at home in the outdoors and has a good working knowledge of plants may be able to collect and prepare the components for an infusion personally rather than paying the local herbalist for them. With a little time and energy, a character with ranks in Profession (herbalist) and Wilderness Lore can remove the merchant from the equation and save some money in the process.

Collecting
Different infusions require different herbs. Not surprisingly, the higher the spell level, the more rare and prized is the herb required for an infusion of it. Thus, not only is the herb for a heal infusion different from the one for a cure light wounds infusion, it is also harder to find. Herbs for the highest-level spells may grow only in the remotest locales, so collection may require long journeys.

A character can use Wilderness Lore to forage for an herb while moving at one-half his or her normal overland movement rate through a forested or other natural area. Make a Wilderness Lore check (DC = 10 + twice the level of the spell to be infused) at the end of each day spent foraging. Success indicates that the character has found a sufficient quantity of the herb for a single infusion of the desired spell; failure means none was found.

Casting detect animals or plants grants the character a +2 circumstance bonus on that day’s check. While foraging in this fashion, a character can also forage for sustenance, as detailed in the Wilderness Lore skill description in Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook.

Gardening
Though growing herbs for infusions seems like a good idea, seldom does an adventuring character actually do so. Maintaining an herb garden requires hours of work each day in a single locale, and most adventurers cannot abide this degree of attachment to one place. Still, any character wishing to undertake the challenge of gardening may attempt it according to the following rules.

Once the character has acquired a sample of the desired herb (see Collecting, above), he or she can attempt to cultivate it. A single character can care for a number of herbs equal to twice the number of ranks he or she has acquired in Wilderness Lore. With proper care, an herb garden produces a harvest twice a year.

To produce an herb crop, the character must make a Wilderness Lore or Profession (farmer) check for each week of cultivation, plus an additional Wilderness Lore check at harvest time. The DC for the weekly cultivation check is one-half the DC required to find the herb (see Collecting, above). If this check fails by 5 or more, the herb withers and dies. Each time it fails by less than 5, a cumulative –1 penalty is imposed on the final Wilderness Lore check for harvesting the crop, if that last check is successful, the herbs harvested are sufficient for a number of infusions equal to one-half the check result. Failure indicates that no usable herbs are produced.

Hiring a gardener to perform this task may be a reasonable option. A skilled gardener earns 1 gp per day, or about 180 gp per season. (This does not include the cost of acquiring the herb for planting, nor the cost of the land for the garden.) The average gardener can cultivate two herbs per season, each of which produces enough herbs for 1d4 infusions.

Preparing
Before an herb can be used in an infusion, it must be properly prepared. Some herbs must be treated or dried; others must be baked, steamed, or doused with a solution of oil or seawater. Again, the higher the level of the spell to be infused, the more difficult and complex the preparation becomes. Preparing an herb for infusion requires a Profession (herbalist) check.

To determine how long the preparation takes, first find the base cost to create the infusion on Table 3—3 and convert the price to silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). Then make a Profession (herbalist) check (DC = 10 + twice the level of the spell to be infused) representing one week’s worth of work, if the check succeeds, multiply the check result by the DC. A total equal to or greater than the base cost for creation means that the herb is ready to be infused with the desired spell. A total below that price represents the progress made that week. Make another check the subsequent week and, if it is successful, add that check result times the DC to the previous week’s result. As soon as the sum of these weekly totals equals or exceeds the price of the item in silver pieces, the preparation is complete. Failure at any point indicates that the character makes no progress that week. Failure by 5 or more means the character ruins the raw materials and must begin again with a fresh supply of the herb.

Optional Rule: Benefits of Hard Work Taking the time and trouble to collect or grow each herb, prepare it, and infuse it with a spell is hard work. By so doing, however, characters attune themselves to nature and her bounty. Making an infusion “from scratch” raises its caster level by +1. This increase alters neither the cost of creating the infusion nor the difficulty of using it.
These rules are for infusions, a magic item type unique to Masters of the Wild, however a similar process could easily be garnered for Potions (as well as many other Magic Items).

(completely off the top of my head) many creatures have Treasure: None. You could easily decide that creatures with Treasure: None could have parts harvestable to be used in magic item creation.
1. Construct some fair calculation of how much the raw ingredients are worth (perhaps 10*CR of base creatures of their type GPs worth of raw materials).
2. Under normal craft rules a character skilled in the preparation could take raw materials and triple their value over the course of some time using (Griffon Eyes could be worth 40 GP if harvested correctly with a DC 18 survival, craft (reagent), or Profession (Surgeon) check, then with a successful Craft (Reagent) check DC 18 you may begin the process of turning the Raw Griffon Eyes worth 40 GP into Prepared Griffon Eyes worth 120 GP. The Raw Griffon Eyes would be the raw materials needed to make the Prepared Griffon Eyes, and if you had a +8 Craft (Reagent) and only took ten hitting the bare minimum DC, it would take ~1.5-2 weeks of crafting to do it.
3. You may use the Reagents in the construction of a Potion like Eagle's Splendor, Hawkeye, etc. A Potion of Eagle's Splendor costs 225 GP in materials to craft, so your Griffon Eyes would substitute over half the cost of the potion.

From a 3rd party book that uses the 3.5 system as a basis for it's rules we have the Warcraft Books!


Because of the large amount of herbal ingredients used in the preparation of alchemical products (Potions in the Warcraft universe are created with Alchemy, rather than Brew Potion), many journeyman alchemists are also skilled herbalists. In order to avoid dealing with exhaustive lists of ingredients for each alchemical product and a system of herbalism that accurately reflects the kinds of herbs found in various places, use the following system.

Because herbalists are always gathering the materials they need as they travel or wander the wilderness, alchemists who possess ranks of Profession (herbalist) or are aided by someone with that skill gain an effective gold piece value towards the creation of their alchemical mixtures, based on the kind of alchemical mixture and the ranks in Profession (herbalist). This value cannot pay for more than half of the product’s creation cost, however.

Apprentice: Each rank in Profession (herbalist) effectively grants 5 sp toward the creation of the product.
Journeyman: Each rank in Profession (herbalist) effectively grants 1 gp toward the creation of the product.
Expert: Each rank in Profession (herbalist) effectively grants 2 gp toward the creation of the product.
Artisan: Each rank in Profession (herbalist) effectively grants 5 gp toward the creation of the product.
Master: Each rank in Profession (herbalist) effectively grants 10 gp toward the creation of the product.

For example, Cybele possesses 8 ranks of Profession (herbalist) and is creating a lesser healing draught, which costs 160 gp to buy, or 53 gp and 33 sp to create with Craft (alchemy). Because each rank of Profession (herbalist) is worth 2 gp towards the creation of expert-level alchemical concoctions, she is assumed to have herbs worth 16 gp of the total necessary. At the height of her herbalist career, with 15 ranks in Profession (herbalist), Cybele effectively has 30 gp towards the creation of that item; however, because herbalism can only reduce that cost by up to half, she is assumed to match 26 gp, 16 sp of it.
Definitely not RAW by 3.5 standards, as Journeyman-Master Herbalist each are feats in their own right, it still produces a fairly balanced way in which adventurers are able to gather materials for crafting magic items.

[weckar]

Spell Side Effects are allowed to be picked by the caster purposefully. Pick Gem Creation and you can have gems to grind up into potions for the cost. Pick Grass Growth and grow sugarcane, bamboo, wheat, rice etc. to sell or subsidize other workers so they can get you something more profitable. Technically Wish can be a side effect if you are using the Greater Rod of Wonder charts. DM fiat also works. You can sacrifice things via Book of Vile Darkness to help with crafting. Agony and Ambrosia are another way, torture before sacrifice means all the more crafting for you!

Source? Sounds fascinating...

[Asmotherion]

The classic DnD scenario of the evil shaman of some monstrous race brewing potions to bolster the power of his minions is a trope that I personally like. However, upon reading the base costs to brew potions in the 3.5 DMG, I struggle to realize how any shaman is expected to brew even the most basic potions. Where the hell are they supposed to get 150 gp to brew so much as a single potion of Bull's Strength!? I mean, there can't be THAT many random adventurers with that much cash just prancing around in the wilderness, and goats and pigs of the local extorted farmers can't be worth THAT much, especially not on a consistent basis.

May I presume someone's been reading Asterix? ;)

[Malphegor]

Mm. If Getafix stopped making potions for a bit he could probably afford a +1 Adamantine Sickle by now.

[Spore]

If potions are the one thing between you and agonizing death, be it via adventurer's sword or basically just dying to a wound, you'd damn well streamline the process of bringing herbs to your shamans. Just imagine living in a world where magical healing is pretty well known. But you have to revere a deity (cleric), chant a very awesome tribal chant (bard) or just bring a few leaves to your local shaman (druid/alchemist). Of course you would help him or her.


May I presume someone's been reading Asterix? ;)

I mean Miraculix seems like a high level expert. If you remove the comical tone of the ... well comics, you get a remote village where an enigmatic leader allows the inhabitants to attain superhuman strength. The Roman officials know about the potion but they don't have an idea how it is brewed. They don't know it can run dry, and after all is said and done, the Legion could just take the village with a big blood toll.

The main problem is Roman politics, because loosing any legionnaires to a tiny barbaric town is unacceptable and dooms the general's career to a terrible doom. So basically secrecy and intimidation saves Asterix' village, not sheer force. Going ahead, Asterix and Obelix are the two reasons the town stays afloat. Asterix is a rogue trained in Diplomacy and Bluff, whereas Obelix is just a barbarian with Intimidate where his oblivious nature in the presence of weapons is again just a result of the comical tone. I like Asterix too much so here is my take.

Majestix, the leader is the stereotypical barbarian. Dumped mental stats, put all into constitution. He is the leader by bloodline, but he is aging (and thus took hefty penalties), making his leadership a mockery of his former self. He is stubborn but Miraculix is happy with manipulating him to protect the village. His wife Impedimenta is a spoiled aging wife, but also more suited for leading than him. If Majestix becomes too stubborn, she adjusts his opinion, possibly via seduction.

Miraculix is the de facto leader, even though he can do little to actually protect the village. He struggles to keep the potion production afloat, so even he in his frail state has to go out and find mistles. He is really good at improvising potion ingredients though.

Asterix and Obelix have been discussed. The whole town is shrouded in mystery. "Defeated" legionnaires from the comic are actually killed, with their helmets collected as grim reminders of the death toll this hellhole already took. Yet Rome is unyielding. Gaul has to be conquered fully. They cannot risk more ressource than four legions circling the city. If word comes out, any politican supporting this can kiss their career goodbye. I imagine the whole situation as an incredibly tense stalemate. Romans are pressed into action by Rome, into inaction by the dreadful consequences. In the books where actual Caesar shows up, a climax is reached because not only is he a inquisitive mind who would demystify the dread and horror the village exudes, he would also know how to lead the legions into battle with minimal losses. However the heroes use his pride and arrogance against him. If anyone here read Caesar's De Bello Gallico (about the gaul war), that man is SO SELF absorbed; it is incredible. They constantly offer him wild goose chases and other opportunities to prove Romans are smarter than barbarians. Caesar would not refuse, but he literally can't. This would mean Non-romans are smarter than Romans, and this could topple their whole world view (with Romans having actual rights, where Non-Romans are treated with impunity).

Also yay me for derailing. e: Getafix is Miraculix (Miracoli being an Italian instant spaghetti brand), Majestix is Vitalstatistix (from majestic of course), Impedimenta is Gutemine in German (which is a pun on positive expression), the only English name I like is Cacofonix (German is Troubadix, which does not include the actual terrible music he produces, I assume he is a Cha 7 bard with no ranks in Perform).


Mm. If Getafix stopped making potions for a bit he could probably afford a +1 Adamantine Sickle by now.

Incredibly pointless to stand with a magic weapon amidst the ruins of your home town, unable to actuially use the weapon (because he is basically a venerable human with -6 to stats), having the weapon stripped away by the Romans and him executed.

[Seto]

*Asterix headcanon

Thanks for that interesting take! :smallbiggrin: Also, I've been reading Astérix in the original French since I was a kid, but your post is the first time I read the characters' name in the English translation. They sound really interesting! A new world opens up to me. I should go read Asterix's TV Tropes page.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ah, Asterix; the gold standard of translation and localisation to which all others must be held up to. (And a massive influence on me, starting as a child... (I have ALL the books now, except maybe the most recent.))

(Sadly, the two folk who did the English translations since the start passed away a little before, I think the new authors took over, but they'd done every book since.)



I briefly ran an Asterix-y game using Warhammer FRPG (1st edition), where the potion set strength to 10. It actually worked quite well in emulating the comic's effects on fights, considering...

[Destro2119]

Well... I did not expect as many varied responses as I got. I always thought it was silly that some shaman was just throwing gold pieces into a giant pot while chanting incantations to make it into a potion*. Also, I DO read Asterix! Very nice to see someone else does too.

*BTW this is how I will flavor all PC magic item creation from now on. Money is a powerful thing indeed.

[weckar]

Thanks for that interesting take! :smallbiggrin: Also, I've been reading Astérix in the original French since I was a kid, but your post is the first time I read the characters' name in the English translation. They sound really interesting! A new world opens up to me. I should go read Asterix's TV Tropes page.

I think they are using the German names, actually?
English = Getafix
German = Miraculix
basically everywhere else = Panoramix

[Manyasone]

I think they are using the German names, actually?
English = Getafix
German = Miraculix
basically everywhere else = Panoramix

yup, Belgium also uses Panomarix for the Druid
Abraracourcix for the chief, Assurancetourix for the bard and Idéfix for the wee doggie.
I've heard that there are new dutch translations as of now, but a grognard is as a grognard does...
I grew up with those names

[lord_khaine]

Mm. If Getafix stopped making potions for a bit he could probably afford a +1 Adamantine Sickle by now.


Incredibly pointless to stand with a magic weapon amidst the ruins of your home town, unable to actuially use the weapon (because he is basically a venerable human with -6 to stats), having the weapon stripped away by the Romans and him executed.

Even more pointless because the potion specifically require mistletoe harvested by a gold sickle! :smalltongue: