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Ivanhoe
2019-12-11, 05:26 PM
Not having posted here in a while, I recently got an idea to attempt a better 3.5 core melee build than the classic once done by Saph, the horizon tripper. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build))

While I like Saph's idea to use the often overlooked horizon walker prestige class, I feel that the build fails to fulfill the primary goal by Saph: "I've noticed the advice tends to have a few limitations. (...) It assumes too high a level. Many D&D games start at level 1 and most never go beyond level 10."
The horizon tripper basically uses a solid mixture of 5 levels of full BAB core classes (ranger, barbarian and fighter) to get the necessary feats for reach tripping battlefield control, and also some decent skill points to widen the range of options this melee character has.
However, the main ability to use dimension door every 1d4 rounds kicks in only at level 11. And the build has to get through levels 6-10 with hardly any noteworthy ability gains from the first five levels of horizon walker.


Thus, enter the Shadow Tripper!

It attempts similar things that the horizon tripper tries to do (and in part I got inspired by some campaign experiences of mine which at a later point I'd like to share):

Use core rules only (PHB/DMG/MM) for building a melee character since this is what most groups can agree on/play with.
Make this melee character not only a one trick pony.
Makes it powerful enough to keep up with the CR challenges intended, and to a degree with casters in the mid to high level range.



The build is basically:
Ranger 1 / Monk 6 / Shadowdancer 9 or ten /whatever after that inflicts no multicasting penalty (continuing ranger, or assassin comes to mind).

Important details (using a similar structure to Saph's build):
Stats with Elite array should be Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Chr 8
Race: should be human like the original horizon tripper or wood elf (ranger being favored class)
Feats: Improved initiative (level 1), dodge (human), improved unarmed strike, improved grapple (monk 1), combat reflexes (monk 2), mobility (level 3), blind-fighting (or dodge when not human) (level 6), improved trip (monk 6). Then later take improved natural attack (level 9) and possibly spring attack (level 12). As an aside, I believe power attack an overrated feat even in core, since the loss of attack bonus and uncertainty of opponent AC makes it somewhat shaky - definitely less attractive than a potential 3d8 unarmed strike damage around level 10.
Class features: apart from the monk feat choices, the ranger favored enemy can be chosen to fit your taste/campaign. Possibly take favored enemy vs creatures you find difficult to trip and use ranged weapons against them.
Skills: Perform, hide and move silently are all class skills of the monk (and ranger in part). Tumble, in contrast to the horizon tripper, is also a monk class skill.
Equipment: as for the horizon tripper (enlarge potions are key, as is a martial reach weapon - advantage of the monk levels is that at close range you can use unarmed strike for tripping); replace light armor with potions of mage armor and bracers of defense plus stealth items. And another key thing: get deeper darkness cast on a stone that is covered when not needed regularly (possibly get scrolls/wands of it when a 1/week or so npc casting is not viable)
Alternative entry into shadowdancer to get improved trip earlier, and needing different elite array to get Int to 13: Ranger 1/Fighter 2/monk 2/ ranger 1/ barbarian 1


What this boils down to:

This build will get its key ability hide in plain sight at level 8, unlike the horizon tripper its dimension door at level 11.
I also believe that this ability is more important for a melee character.
The darkness effect provides concealment to attempt hiding even while fighting (apart from the obviously great use for scouting).
It basically boils down to a permanently 50% miss chance of opponents in melee from level 8, in case the shadow tripper's hide check beats the spot check of the opponent. Since the hide skill bonus at level 8 can easily be 11 (ranks) plus Dex (possibly +3 with Dex boosting item) +5 (elven cloak), +2 (master work item) = +21, even with a -20 penalty from full attacking (the first attack likely catching the opponent flat-footed), this is not such a bad chance vs many opponents.

Another major ability comes online at level 10 (again before the horizon tripper's key ability): the shadow companion. While being able to provide flanking (and also possibly well-hidden with darkness up), its strength damage means continually improving odds for tripping attacks.

Funnily, the shadowdancer also gets a very limited teleporting ability from level 11 - the level when dimension door is available to the horizon tripper. Still, Saph's point was mobility for a melee character (like not being impeded by walls of force), and this is where the shadow tripper also delivers with shadow step. Also, the monk's movement bonus is higher than that provided by the barbarian in the horizon tripper (the variant build with a barbarian level stacks barbarian and monk movement bonuses).

Overall, the build has a similar performance in other areas: better saves (worse at fortitude, better in reflex and will), slightly worse hit points and attacking bonus (note the lower BAB is made up by flanking and invisibly striking bonuses)m and similar skill points (but with a wider range of skills allowing such a melee character to shine in stealth, scouting as well as possibly being the party face with bluff, sense motive and diplomacy, plus backup scholar with access to five knowledge skills).

What do you think? Comments & ideas for improvement are welcome!

Troacctid
2019-12-11, 06:12 PM
Seems unimpressive TBH. Shadowdancer is worse than horizon walker in this kind of build because 1. it taxes you for two extra feats, 2. it has lower numbers for its combat stats, and 3. hiding in plain sight isn't especially synergistic with tripping.

Meanwhile, the monk base hurts your low-level power and is generally weak. Don't get me wrong, flurry of blows is fine, and it lets you ignore the Int requirement on Improved Trip so that you can be race with a Str bonus, but you also want to be using reach weapons, and in core, there aren't any reach weapons that you can flurry with.

Ivanhoe
2019-12-11, 06:22 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Troacctid!

My opinion:
1. the two extra feats for dodge and mobility are useful for the mobile tripping AoO style (and core does not have too many worthy melee feats anyway)
2. it does not have lower numbers for its combat stats than the horizon tripper - see the effect of the shadow companion and striking invisibly vs flat-footed when hiding works.
3. hide in plain sight synergies well with tripping What melee character does not want to strike invisibly? And vanish easily without retribution by opponents due to higher speed and stealth? And come back hidden again?

The monk has its problems, but in this build it works quite well. The reach weapon obtained by the ranger level needs no flurry; it is there for reaching opponents for tripping that are 10 ft or 15-20ft (enlarge) away with AoO. You can also trip with unarmed strike - and that can be flurried.

Ivanhoe
2019-12-25, 05:24 PM
Using the holiday season for some update to the build idea:

The shadow tripper in its basic form (Ranger 1/monk 6/shadowdancer 10/ranger or assassin combination for the rest) is really better than the old horizon tripper classic. And thus the best core melee in my view (well, the supercharger is also quite good... :smallsmile:)

Two reasons why I believe it:
1) just crunching the basic numbers we get a better performance for the shadow tripper
Skill points shadow tripper (ST): 4x6 (Ranger 1) + 6x4 (monk) + 10x6 (Shadowdancer) + 3x4 (say, 3 more ranger levels) = total 126
Skill points horizon tripper (HT): 4x4 (barbarian 1) + 2 (fighter) +3x6 (ranger 1-3) + 10x4 (horizon walker) + 5x6 (say, 5 more ranger levels) + 20 (intelligence advantage) = 126 total
Note: for Saph's original idea to have a good build already by level 10, the result is the same (66 vs 66). Note, though, that the ST has a better selection of skills (roguish skills and more knowledge skills, plus the key tumble skill for avoiding AoO). So, overall ST a bit ahead.

Base Saves for ST: fort +12 (2+5+3+2); reflex +16 (+2+5+7+2); will +10 (5+3+1, +1 due to higher wisdom) /+11 vs enhancement
Base Saves for HT: fort +17 (+3+2+2+7+3); reflex +7 (+3+3+1); will +5 (+1+3+1)
Here, the ST is ahead in 2 out of 3 saves; leaving the ST far behind in total save numbers (+38 vs +29), and the glaring weakness of the HT is having fairly low reflex and will saves
Again note at level 10 the ST is also clearly ahead (+7/+10/+6 vs +10/+4/+2).

Hit Points ST: 8 (ranger) + 6d8 (monk) +10d8 (shadow dancer) +3d8 (ranger) = 93
Hit Points HT: 12 (barbarian) 1d10 (fighter) +3d8 (ranger) + 10d8 (horizon walker) + 5d8 (ranger) = 98
Here the HT is ahead, though not by much (more noticeable at level 10 with 48 vs 53)

Initiative: The same for both since they will likely take improved initiative feat by level 20 - however, Saph's build does not include this feat up to level 6, so can take it only at level 9. The ST has it from level 1 - a clear advantage.

Movement: ST’s 50ft vs the HT’s 40ft. ST is ahead (exception: when wearing light armor at lower levels possibly).

AC could be interpreted as basically the same since both can wear light armor (e.g. a mithral chain shirt). For the cost of armor, however the ST has the monk option to get a monk's belt and by level 10 have an AC bonus of +4 (including WIS) plus also get potions of mage armor or bracers of defense. It would achieve a lower AC bonus in low levels, similar AC in mid-levels and higher in high levels. The monk's is also touch AC (minus the armor bonus from the bracers).
Additionally, the ST has miss chance factor from hide in plain sight. So clear defense advantage ST.

Attack bonus: ST has BAB of +15 (+7 by level 10) could also flurry for +14/+14/+9/+4; flanking by shadow companion and situationally striking invisibly adds another +2 to +4 for up to +18/+18/+13/+8
HT has BAB of +20 (+10 by level 10), attacks are +20/+15/+10/+5.
Note that both the unarmed strike and the reach tripping weapon can get enhancement bonuses with wbl.
Overall I’d see both rather close, with slight advantages on the side of the HT (in particular in lower levels).

Damage: ST gets either similar damage with a reach tripping weapon (power attack will not help the HT in direct comparison since it hurts attacking bonus at the same time). The ST has the added flexibility of tripping with unarmed strike. This can get a higher base damage than other tripping weapons due to improved natural attack feat and monk’s belt. Overall slight advantage ST.

Number of bonus feats: ST has 5: track, improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, combat reflexes and improved trip. HT has 4: track, two-weapon fighting (or rapid shot), endurance and a fighter bonus feat. Resulting in a similar performance (ST needing as added feats mobility and dodge for prestige class, HT only endurance).

So, out of the above, the majority of comparisons are in favor of the ST.

Additionally, the ST gets powerful melee abilities earlier, with one exception: the improved trip feat (although the variant can get the improved trip already at level 1 as in the HT build, or could use grappling as an effective melee strategy up to level 7).
Otherwise, both hide in plain sight as well as the shadow companion get online before the HT gets his key dimension door ability.
This will have direct impact on:

2) checking how the ST performs in the often used Same Game Test to assess a build’s combat performance. Here, the ST again is ahead quite clearly:

Challenges for a level 10 character in the original Same Game Test (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)):

A hallway filled with magical runes.
Here, ST has a slight edge with decipher script as a class skill (shadowdancer, don’t ask why that prestige class got it) – and also better reflex saves and evasion in case something goes wrong.

A Fire Giant on an active volcano, who hides under lava if kited.
The ST gets a safe win by sending the shadow companion ahead. The fire giant is helpless against it. And the ST is faster with 50ft movement to avoid the desperate giant’s retaliation (and can hide in plain sight vs rocks).

A Young Blue Dragon, soaring over a seemingly endless expanse of sand dunes.
This should actually be a young adult blue dragon (orginal same game test a bit too scared of dragons for my taste). Again, the shadow companion can take the dragon by surprise – however it could retaliate with even its low-level spells. Evasion and higher reflex helps vs kiting of the dragon. Once dragon goes melee, it is toast (too low tripping modifier). Somewhat open, but ST again ahead of the HT.

A Bebilith hidden on the ceiling of a cave in the abyss.
The Bebilith is incredibly tough for a melee tripper. And also completely helpless vs the shadow companion. ST again has higher movement and is clearly ahead again.

A Vrock in a demonic forest.
This one is tricky. At will teleport, telekinesis, plus flying by the Vrock, plus special spores attack make this a difficult combat. Again the shadow companion can turn the tide since the VRock cannot hurt it. Also, the special spores might be judged useless vs grappling by some DMs. ST ahead of HT and with good chances to win.

A tag team of Mind Flayers in a cramped underground structure.
Both HT and ST get darkvision as class abilities and can take it from there. Slight advantage for the ST again, though, due to higher will save. Plus, you know, shadow companion.

An Evil Necromancer in a graveyard with extensive catacombs.
Better saving throws again make the day (or night) for the ST (say, vs a magic jar by the likely level 10 npc wizard necromancer). The ST can also have knowledge religion to identify the opponents it fights. And its higher touch AC helps vs nasty necromantic ray spells. Shadow companion helps vs the necromancer, though not its minions (which should succumb to battlefield controlling by HT and ST quite easily though).

6 Trolls in a small cave behind a waterfall.
Shadow companion. Trolls are slower than the ST, too. ST wins easily.

12 Shadows in an inn after the lights have been doused for the night.
In this case, at last, the shadow companion is no help. However, the hide in plain sight ability might help when using the many opportunities for cover in an inn. (as it could for most of the other encounters above, I just noticed the shadow companion is incredibly dominant power for the ST). Interestingly, the ST can outrun the shadows (depending on the layout of the scenario) to buff and then return to fight.

This means, something around 70%+ winning chances here; or close to normal core wizard or caster level. Of course, at higher levels the ST would fall behind casters (though not the HT).

Hope this provides some ideas to people intending to do a melee character in core only environment that is not a one-trick pony, providing interesting ability and many skills.
Note that with more rules used, the shadowdancer abilities are somewhat mirrored and surpassed by the invisible fist monk ACF (from Exemplars of Evil), and I am pretty sure some rule is there to get undead companions via feats.

Anthrowhale
2019-12-26, 10:03 AM
Figuring out how to do things in core is quite a bit of fun, so thanks for this.

Some drawbacks to think about:

It seems more apt to call the Shadow a 'familiar' rather than a 'companion' since their hit points are closer to a familiar and you possibly lose XP when they die. They are also much harder to replace with a 30 day waiting period. Given this, it seems better to think of the Shadow as an attack option rather than as a flanking companion. As a flanking companion it's quite fragile, likely to retard your advancement, and plausibly MIA in many real-world encounters. As an attack option against unprepared opponents it's quite devastating.

Part of the question here is whether the 'magic strike' ability gained by creatures with DR/magic counts as 'creatures that strike as magic weapon' against an incorporeal foe. I'd say yes, making the Shadow vulnerable (but also monks more effective).
Level 2 in this build looks particularly rough. How are you going to survive against 4 orc warriors (encounter level 2)? The slow start seems worthwhile to worry about here.
For the second point, my favored approach here is taking Combat Reflexes sooner. Then you can hope you win initiative and hope to knock out several with a reach weapon before they close on you. In general, I prefer combat reflexes before improved trip at the earliest levels as just getting in a hit provides plenty of "battlefield control" and touch AC is often similar to AC anyways.

Ivanhoe
2019-12-27, 10:13 AM
Figuring out how to do things in core is quite a bit of fun, so thanks for this.

Thanks a lot! Yes, there is a lot of fun when looking at core mechanics. Additionally, I played in and DMed several core campaigns which provided some interesting insights.

On the drawbacks:
1) Yes, the shadow companion is a bit of a pain when lost. Still, the level 10 same game test has shown that it only rarely at risk. On the other hand, it involves a bit of metagaming by the ST (or necessitates some constant way to detect magic to look for the occasional magic weapon on monsters and opponents) to know when exactly to send the shadow ahead to flank and fight, or when to just use it as a scout or even keep it in total cover in the walls or the ground etc. It definitely is much less vulnerable than an animal companion.
Potentially the shadow is more of a problem at very high levels since the HD it gains are fairly limited (iirc it gets to greater shadow strength without the higher strength damage).
On the DR magic qualification to hit incorporeal creatures: I do not think your interpretation is correct. The SRD says: "Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons (Su). Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." (bold emphasis mine)

2) Yes, the ST build is not as good at the low levels as in higher levels.
You could move a bit outside core to the SRD for the passive way monk to get improved trip earlier, or the variant I outlined above, or just play a human like the original HT, get improved trip and combat expertise at level 1, take monk from beginning and gain combat reflexes at level 2 - just like the HT.

The current main ST build at level 2 is ranger 1/monk 1 which has its advantages, like using improved grapple feat for melee a lot (also including some enlarge potions- though probably not at that level).

How would this play out vs your 4 orc warrior scenario?

The ST could hide and move silently to get the surprise round vs the 4 orcs with just +1 listen/spot.
Then, she'd jump on the first one in the surprise round with the halberd in hands, and grapple (this kind of attack needs a touch attack roll first, it does not say anything about using hands - and the monk can use any part of body for unarmed attacks). Vs the orc's touch AC of 10 she would hit on a 4 or better (1 BAB, +3 Strength, say, and +2 charge for +6)- Once she grapples, she does 1d6+3 damage - likely taking out the first orc.
Then the first round starts. At +6 initiative (improved initiative and dexterity bonus), the ST likely wins. She then can flurry-grapple the next orc (say, the orcs were not that far apart so a 5ft step suffices) - two touch attacks needing 8 each to hit, again quite likely. Again taking out 1 orc.
Now it is the remaining 2 orcs' turn. They move to attack and flank, but due to the halberd one suffers an AoO from the ST. Let us say that misses (it could be masterwork at that level, + 3 strength, +1 BAB for an 8 or better to hit). The 2 orcs both have attack bonuses of +2 (flank) and +4 (strength and BAB) and try to hit the ST. The ST's AC is chain shirt + Dexterity bonus + dodge vs one. Likely one orc will hit, doing average 9 damage. One more hit and the ST is out (say, hp are around 16).
Round 2: ST 5ft steps away and hits one orc with the halberd, this time hitting and taking it out (minimum 5 damage). The remaining orc attacks and misses vs AC 17 (dodge vs him, no longer flanking).
Round 3: ST attacks with halberd and wins.

So it is definitely a close affair - at any point the ST could be less lucky and lose quickly.
Which is about what a CR2 encounter for a level 2 character should mean. (remember also that a level 2 wizard would have difficulty overcoming 4 orcs with, say, a sleep spell, since just one saving vs will could mean a counter charge and the end of the wizard).

Using low-levels buffs like enlarge, protection from evil or magic weapon could greatly affect the scenario chances to the advantage of the ST. Say, an enlarge would mean one tripping attack per round (no AoO since it is a reach weapon) and thwarting of flanking attempts by the orcs.

Anthrowhale
2019-12-27, 12:01 PM
On the DR magic qualification to hit incorporeal creatures: I do not think your interpretation is correct. The SRD says: "Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons (Su). Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." (bold emphasis mine)

What is a 'creature that strikes as a magic weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype)' in the incorporeal subtype description? It's not a creature with a magic weapon, because then it would be a redundant clause. The only plausible definition I see is creatures with DR/Magic.

W.r.t. the scenario, the orcs will often not be surprised since they have darkvision (and you do not).

Ivanhoe
2019-12-28, 09:26 AM
Ah, overlooked the passage in incorporeality. It appears in my view that creatures with DR/magic are not such creatures. But the monk with its special ki strike ability is (it is different from the DR/magic ability). So, a monk would be able to hit incorporeal creatures like a shadow with 50% chance - but not a dragon. And, of course, all creatures that have magic fang cast on them.

In the orc scenario, darkvision does change the situation. Not during night outside in the case of a wood elf ST. But definitely underground. It then would really depend on the layout of the dungeon. If the ST could somehow retreat to a choking point where she could fight the orcs one at a time with grapple attacks (the grapple not lasting long enough most often for the orcs to strike at her without her dexterity bonus) then it would again make a difference.
Truth to tell, four orcs in a dungeon may hurt most solo 2nd level characters. But point taken that Saph's HT could at level 2 survive such an encounter better than the ST. Will think on that.
Note also, that we would need to have some sort of CR same game test, since encounters that emphasise will and reflex saves or skills would again hurt the HT more than the ST. Will also think on that.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-12-30, 02:32 AM
and in core, there aren't any reach weapons that you can flurry with.

Not quite. The DMG has the kusari-gama, a light reach weapon that counts as a monk special weapon and can be used to trip. Of course, that does cost you an EWP feat.

Quertus
2019-12-30, 08:50 AM
I'm a little concerned that a build which has 6 of its first 7 levels in Monk is claiming to be "best build". Can it really function at level 7?

StreamOfTheSky
2020-01-01, 04:23 PM
Honestly never understood the hype around the "Horizon Tripper." It was just a core martial tripping build that can also short range teleport. The HW levels do nothing to help w/ tripping, really. Other than perhaps letting you use Rage w/o worrying about it ending before the battle. It could be pretty much any combat build and still be a HW, it's just two unrelated things stapled together b/c one is one of the best combat styles and the other is one of the best purely martial classes.

That said, this build seems pretty underwhelming, too.

If you want a tripper in core, you're not going to beat an Eldritch Knight polymorphing setup (Ftr or Rng 1 / Transmuter 5 / EK 10). Has both Enlarge Person and tripping reach weapon proficiency at level 2, and can polymorph into a Treant or Annis Hag three times a day at level 9. And you're decent for most of the journey there, too. At level 1 you're a martial, levels 2-6 you're just a beefier wizard half a spell level behind, levels 7 (especially) and 8 are a bit rough, but level 9+ you're golden.

Ivanhoe
2020-01-01, 06:58 PM
Hello again, and happy new year to everyone!
Thanks for the added feedback.
First, some remarks on the recent comments.
@PoeticallyPsyco: Are you sure that the DMG says the kusari-gama is a monk weapon? If it is, it woud be really cool!
@Quertus: The shadow tripper (ST) build should have no problem at level 7, since that is when the improved trip comes online. As already hinted in my answer to Anthrowhale, however, I am more concerned with levels 2-6 on a second thought. The battlefield control provided by monk levels 1-5 is limited, and combat reflexes, improved grapple, tumble skill plus good mobility only carries so far. More about this below.
@StreamOfTheSky: The original Horizon Tripper (HT) idea by Saph was built with the goal to do a good non-caster build with just the core rules - since that is what he felt people sometimes prefer to play. Of course a druid, or other casters could be also quite remarkable at tripping and melee battlefield control (provided they devote enough feats to it).
However, they are not that better, if at all, than the HT or the ST in a core environment.
Consider your build: it uses enlarge and polymorph effects, which HT and ST can easily also get as permanent buffs from npcs. Basically having these key tripping buffs will just mean an advantage of several 1,000 gps. Meanwhile, your EK build idea has less hp, probably worse saves and worse skill points than the versatile HT and ST builds.
Maybe you can provide a more detailed build and show how it handles the SGT level 10 and my new one for level 2 below?

Having said that, I am thinking about modifying my ST idea to the alternative route above: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Barbarian or Ranger level (depending on how well alignment change works in the campaign) and then shadow dancer.
The Ranger 1/Monk 6/Shadowdancer x is more elegant, but has shortcomings in the lower levels.

Let’s see first how my original ST build Ranger 1/Monk 6/Shadowdancer 10/Ranger 2-4 works in a new Same Game Test for 2nd level characters:

4 orcs in a dark cave (Anthrowhale’s challenge)
An imp in a wizard’s laboratory
A first level fighter knight on a light warhorse outside on an open field
A huge centipede in the sewers of an abandoned city
Two deeper pit traps before reaching the main room of a castle
Two ghouls on an old battlefield at night
A level 2 human rogue hiding in a dark alley to murder you
A level 2 elven enchantress trying to stop contact with the local baron
A crocodile hiding in the small lake of a desert oasis
An animated stone statue of a dryad guarding a forest temple

Comparing HT with ST:
4 orcs: HT is ahead (more detailed analysis see above, combat reflexes plus tripping for the HT will be able to keep the orcs at bay, while the ST likely loses in a situation where she cannot use stealth to get a jump on the orcs with darkvision)
An imp: Here, the HT has problems. It is unclear whether the imp can be tripped at all due to its perfect flying speed (although it does have wings). Also, the will save of the HT is vulnerable to suggestion. Meanwhile, the ST has a better will save and improved grapple. Grapple can ruin an imp’s day – provided the wizard’s laboratory is small enough for the ST to jump or reach the imp once it has done its surprise attack. ST ahead here (with unclear win or not)
The riding knight (probably with a lance) is no match vs either tripping or grappling tactics (simply target rider ftw). HT and ST win. The horse will run away once the rider is down (it, too, could be tripped and grappled).
The huge centipede: well, it’s as close to that damned crab as you can get at these levels in core. In case you notice it, you may avoid it (and the ST has a better spot skill potential and possibly wins initiative). However, it is also quite fast (HT is as fast, while ST is slower, but ST could try to hide) plus has climbing skill. When it comes to combat, the HT has more hit points plus rage to last through and survive the poison. HT ahead of ST (while both likely lose, since no tripping or grappling is possible)
The pit traps: Here, the ST again is ahead due to better reflex save (and tumble skill may cushion some of the falling damage). Both, however, are likely to survive.
The ghouls: they are tripped and defeated easily by the HT; the ST has some more problems but grappling should see a narrow victory here (due to winning initiative, readying a grapple vs one ghoul plus AoO/Trip at 10ft with halberd vs the other). HT ahead.
The rogue murderer: Here, the worse spot of the HT bites somewhat. Likely surprise and initiative will got to a potentially twf rogue with sneaks each. Could be dangerous for the HT (resulting in a draw/unclear result in my view). Meanwhile, the ST spots better, has similarly good initiative and will outgrapple the rogue. ST ahead.
The enchantress: Again advantage for the ST due to better will save, better initiative, better stealth and possibly better general information due to diplomacy and sense motive class skills. A fast initiative plus will save and grapple attack will make this a win for the ST, too. Meanwhile, the HT with a base will save of only +0 is too vulnerable here for a win.
The crocodile: Nasty closet troll since it is quite tricky to detect and to avoid a surprise charge. ST has a bit better chance here. Also, the improved grapple helps vs the improved grab. HT has around grapple check of +4 tp +6, ST of +9. ST wins both encounter and vs HT (which I see on equal footing with the crocodile which is also difficult to trip).
The stone statue is tough due to its DR 8 (stone). Otherwise, both tripping and grappling will make quite easy to handle and/or avoid due to better movement, initiative etc. HT and ST win with different methods, although it will take the ST much longer. HT ahead.

So, this boils down to (out of 10 challenges):
HT: 5 wins, 2 draws, 3 losses
ST: 7 wins, 1 draws, 2 losses (only slightly worse than the SGT level 10 performance)
ST is ahead of HT in 5 vs 4 cases, 1 challenges is handled similarly well (or bad)

So, also at level 2 (after level 10, see above), the ST is better than the HT. What would you say to this assessment?

I’ll also check the level 5 same game test that already exists at a later time (essentially the HT build at Barbarian 1/figher 1/ranger 3 vs ST with Ranger 1/ monk 4)

Ivanhoe
2020-01-05, 10:22 AM
As promised, here is also my interpretation of how my shadow tripper (ST) build would fare compared to the horizon tripper (HT) with the 5th level same game test challenges (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)):

A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
A Basilisk in its desert burrow.
A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
A Phase Spider anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.
A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.

Edit: forgot the traps at first. Guessing from the SRD traps, the ST has better reflex saves and evasion to survive quite well some CR 4 trap effects- better at least than the HT. Guess it boils down to win for ST, unclear for HT. Edit end.
The huge animated iron statue has similar challenges as the medium one I designed for the 2nd level same game test - grappling or tripping it gets even harder. Both ST and HT, however, can kite it fairly safely with their high strength and composite bows, wearing it down over time. Win for both ST and HT.
Then, the basilisk is a typical closet troll in its lair- since almost everyone will have to save vs its gaze attack and everyone with a low fortitude save is likely to lose. Fortunately for ST and HT, both have strong fort saves and should survive long enough to overcome the basilisk's otherwise rather meagre combat power. When averting the gaze the basilisk has 50% miss chance and a bonus to hit; but the HT will trip it vs touch AC 9 at one point or another, and the ST can grapple it. Both win - and to a similarly pronounced degree, even without enlarge potions.
The fire elemental is a very tough opponent, and quite fast as well. Still, it will be out-tripped and out-grappled by the HT and the ST respectively since they both have a good stealth (the HT as well by now due to the ranger levels) and can buff with an enlarge potion ahead of combat. The HT is ahead due to tripping (note some DMs may judge an elemental immune to tripping or at least as more stable getting +4 mod); the ST's grappling is somewhat dangerous with reflex saves needed to avoid getting burnt (again, a DM may judge differently - grappling is not an unarmed strike, although it uses unarmed strike damage - RAI you could interpret grappling a fire elemental as extinguishing its fire. Both win with HT ahead.
The flying manticore on a plain has initially some advantage vs HT and ST. In ranged combat, they are inferior to the manticore. They could however, drop to the ground or even get some small cover on the plain vs the manticore's assault and use full defense option (thanks to tumbling another +6 for the ST vs the HT's regular +4). As such, of the manticore's 24d8+48 damage potential at +8 to hit only a few shots might get through. At one point or another the manticore when wishing to finish its opponents will have to land. Then it loses vs tripping and grappling power (the trick for HT and ST is to hold action to drink enlarge potion until manticore is 10ft away). I'd consider this a draw/unclear match for both HT and ST.
The phase spider is brutal, much worse than the basilisk. It is basically guaranteed a surprise attack, and an attack from higher initiative. Meaning vs flat-footed AC the HT and ST both have to make two DC 17 fort saves. The HT's saving throw focus on fortitude provide an advantage here (+7), so it could actually pull through. Meanwhile, the ST has +6 fortitude base save, so could also make it and has a much better chance to win initiative. Still, grappling without enlarge buff (the phase spider could withdraw for a while quite easily) provides no big winning chances for the ST. Similarly, the HT has a too low trip modifier unbuffed vs the spider's +11. Both HT and ST lose, to a similar degree.
The centaurs are much easier to fight. They lose at the stealth game vs HT and ST, so they could come in buffed and surprise round, the ST with higher initiative also with the first attack. The ST's grapple wins vs one quite quickly, but she could suffer from attacks of the other centaur for some rounds (before overcoming it as well). It is a classic tripping advantage for the HT. So both win, with HT somewhat ahead.
The howler/allip team is also quite tough. The HT will have problems to beat the high trip modifier of the howler, while having a Lower wisdom score to survive the constant attacks from the Allip. The ST has somewhat better chances; its enlarged grappling could beat the howler while surviving long enough to then focus on the allip. HT loses likely, while it is a toss-up/unclear win for the ST.
Grimlocks? Do not make me laugh. ST and HT win; both have combat reflexes to stand vs many foes attacking at the same time. Easy win for them, even in darkness since they will notice the grimlocks coming when they got light with them.
The cleric of Hextor is a similar cakewalk. The zombies succumb to combat reflexes quickly, and a level 5 cleric has hardly anything to overcome melee characters of this level. Ah wait, the cleric could cast hold person - this is a huge risk for the HT, but the ST's higher will save (plus monk's bonus vs enhancement spells) carry the day. ST ahead while HT loses.

So, this boils down do:
HT: 5 wins, 1 2 draws, 3 losses
ST: 5 6 wins, 2 draws, 2 losses
In direct comparison, HT is ahead twice, ST twice as well - so I'd consider it overall a very similar performance three times, so overall slight advantage for ST as in the level 2 SGT.

So, in total:
AT level 2 ST is a bit ahead of HT
AT level 5 both are quite close in their performance ST is also a bit ahead of HT
At level 10 ST is clearly ahead.

Also, my gut feeling is that the eldritch knight is much worse at the lower levels (before polymorph comes online, and let us be honest - many groups and DMs often prefer to play without polymorph effects even in core campaigns due to the power of that buff). But I'll wait for further responses before thinking on that again.