OOTS #289 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

OK, obviously even later than I had hoped today, but here's yesterday's comic.

[Kodoz]

oh dear,That was hilarious. Had a bad day myself and this lit it up, and i was laughing wholeheartedly. Great one "I feel so dirty"

[maximus]

HAHAHA.... an NPC class...

Funny strip...


Meat Loaf Day....

[drasty]

3 cheers for NPC classes!

[Randomnesh]

Great comic! Entirely worth the wait. Got a few giggles out of this one.

Some things to say to Roy.

I agree with Elan, weekend cliffhangers are evil. ;)

[Ellimist]

Great Comic!
"fooled by an NPC class" ;D

*first page!*

[Gralamin]

SO FUNNY!

Meat loaf day ;D

Wash out that dirt roy wash it out!

[Kulatu]

Well worth the wait, I thoroughly enjoyed it! Good to see you haven't lost your touch. =)

[theKOT]

Oh goodness, I'll have to kill him myself! Meatloaf? Blech!


Oh, and good comic Giant! Diggin' the exposition.

[Kishi]

Oh, that made my day. Totally worth the wait!

[phlip]

Aww, poor Roy...

It's a good thing Belkar wasn't around, we know how he treats admitted liars (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=179)...

[IreneDAdler]

Wonderful comic! Thank you so much!!! <3 <3 <3

[Sleffie]

Absolutely hilarious.

[theKOT]

Great comic! Entirely worth the wait. Got a few giggles out of this one.

Some things to say to Roy.

I agree with Elan, weekend cliffhangers are evil. ;)
But now it is the same length till the next one as during the week, and it wasn't really a cliffhanger....

[fall_ark]

Wow, is that first time first page? :o

Great! And he's a 14th level aristocrat, he's with an NPC class! ;D

EDIT: Wow, there's a lot posts in the same minute and I think I'm just lucky, last post first page, teehee ;)

[Crud]

I love it. Sholo's not even a Paladin, lawful, or even a PC class. The plot is about to further thicken. From Halfling drop soup into some kind of zesty Oots stew.

P.s. I loved the meat loaf Ninja!! ;D

[killingwithasmile]

hehehe meatloaf

[teratorn]

Good as ever. And I'm one of the 99.9% who do not mind waiting, and I always skip negative messages, I'm more interested in any info about things I don't understand in D&D. Hope everything's ok with your family member.

[ElfLad]

Pure genius. Definitely worth the wait.

[sakusha]

XDDDD "I feel dirty inside." W00T, Giant! And now we see what Haley was talking about before she was so rudely interrupted by Miko about to kill Belkar! ~_^ Too bad the person with all the ranks in sense motive couldn't speak in Common, huh?

Go old men who can fool the youthful with true wisdom!

[Doopliss]

Great strip. I was confident Shojo would turn out evil...

As always, thanks giant! ;D

[Blaznak]

Loved the shaming of Roy via NPC classes. Also, I'm a big fan of Meat Loaf Day. Now I wonder if there's a ninja backstory...

[metalphil]

:o

Meat Loaf Day. Fooled by an NPC class. Beautiful. Another great one, Rich.

[Zargon]

This was a great strip!
Some part of me is sad about Mr. Scruffy not being some polymorphed creature (e.g. silver dragon) ;)
Loved the meatloaf day - that would get just about anybody in trouble!
The spotlights are gone! Where did they come from? NPC controlling lanterns with continous light? hmm...
Not even lawful! Wait, was this whole trial thing a setup? :o Miko must not be told!

[Chronomancer]

ROFL just a great Strip!
I do SO love Shojo now. Lvl 14 aristocrat... *snickers*

Anyways, time to go to bed, it's already Sunday 03:46 AM. ;)

[Ellimist]

If the whole trial was a setup, why did they capture them in the first place? and how did the clerics manage to summon up a higher being that's not really lawful, but looks like one?

[rashambo]

this is what we think of meat loaf day........ priceless.

[geez3r]

Giant, seriously you define awesome in the truest sense of the word. As in: leaving people awestruck and dazed.

thank you.

[xrestassuredx]

ahahahaha awesome

[NovaNightmare]

Ha HA Ha HA ha ha ha...... [Regaining sanity check] ...[Critical Failure] ...

Great comic! Yay for NPC classes!

Take care!


Woohoo! Tuna! Pacu!

[Justinian]

Heh, I feel vindicated for my earlier comments about Shojo and Hinjo probably being mostly Aristocrats. I *am* shocked that Shojo is just a straight Aristocrat. A non-lawful one.

O_o

[motub]

"THIS is what I think of Meatloaf Day!!" indeed....

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm still laughing at that.

Wonderful stuff. And a really great explanation of the whole act (and the Mr. Scruffy charade).

Definitely not what I was expecting. And the two twists (the reason for the assassination attempt and the revelation that Lord Shojo isn't a Paladin, or Lawful at all) totally "make up" for still not knowing what he wants to talk to Roy about.

Another location (the balcony) was great, as well.

Thanks a lot, Rich, it was big fun. And thank you for getting it up when you're tired and have stuff on your mind.

Hope everything's working out OK in RL.

[Kresalak]

Who in their right minds would kill him over meatloaf?

At least Roy can take solace in that the Aristocrat class is almost as powerful as a weaker PC class. Like Complete Warrior Samurai.

I seem to have made a mistake. With it's d8 HD and 4+Int skill points per level, 3/4 BAB, and no special abilities, Aristocrat is far better then CW Samurai.

[metalphil]

If the whole trial was a setup, why did they capture them in the first place? and how did the clerics manage to summon up a higher being that's not really lawful, but looks like one?

Him not being lawful doesn't imply any of that. He's not a Paladin. I don't think it's right to assume that somehow it was a ruse either. The deception was that he wasn't sane.

Therefore, it doesn't logically follow that the whole trial was a setup from what he said. I'm not sure how you jumped to all these conclusions, but you're making the whole matter way more difficult than it is.

[Justinian]

Who in their right minds would kill him over meatloaf?

Staunch culinary traditionalists! Feudal samurai nations are hardcore like that. >_>

[SpoonlessJedi]

I lol'd. And I miss Mr. Scruffy.

[Guancyto]

Indeed! Aristocrat is far and away the best NPC class.

Represent, Shojo!

[Ellimist]

I was just expanding on the idea that someone above my initial post had:

"Not even lawful! Wait, was this whole trial thing a setup?"

[Hawkeye]

I feel Roy's pain, my current character is a whole 5 levels of 2 sucky NPC class'. :(
BTW, in Shojo's opening statement, was he attempting to hit on Haley?

[Deuce]

But, but . . . but I like Meatloaf. I mean, Bat Out of Hell, Paradise by the Dashboard Lig . . . (what? oh?) . . . erm never mind. :P

[Serina_Spellbinder]

I howled with laughter when Roy discovered that Shojo had an NPC character class!

[theKOT]

I just noticed that shojo's hair is grey in the flashback. Nice detail!

[Miles Invictus]

Most amusing. :)

[Feste]

Augh! What will Monday bring?

The Aristocrat deal couldn't have been the only thing that Shojo's been hiding...

I can't wait for the next strip. Curse you, Giant, and your confounded cleverness. ;D

[Umbral_Arcanist]

I love it, an NPC class..... hehehe well worth the wait, OOTs is the only comic i would stay up late and check every few minutes for an update........ strips like this are the reason why

I wonder what else Shojo has to say.......

I hope we get a strip monday..... it's my birthday tooo here's hoping Rich's personal stuff doesn't get worse

[theKOT]

I feel Roy's pain, my current character is a whole 5 levels of 2 sucky NPC class'. :(
BTW, in Shojo's opening statement, was he attempting to hit on Haley?
Yeah, reminds me of Roy's comment to Miko after she beat up the ogres.

[GM_West]

"I feel dirty inside..." Hilarious!!!

Thanks for the laugh, Giant! Once again!! :)

[mowander]

That has got to be one of the funniest strips in awhile.

[Jacklu]

I would be tempted to assassinate someone too if the were directly responsible for the horror that is "Meat Loaf Day". Don't worry Roy, that dirty feeling goes away after a while! ;D
AWSOME COMIC!!! GIANT!!! YOU RULE!!!

[rwald]

Great comic! My first response was "Oh God, I never saw that coming!" And that's even with reading the forums.

Possible (minor) spoiler:
We know that in the Giant's mind, being neutral means either doing nothing of either extreme or doing an equal amount of both. For Shojo to be neutral on the law/chaos scale (it's hard to imagine him being chaotic), he'd need to do an equal amount of law and chaos. We've seen him do lots of law (running a court, etc.)...I wonder if we're now going to see some chaos?

[Kishi]

To addendum my previous love, I have to point out what is possibly my favorite line, but hasn't been getting much attention: "Also, we can finally turn the spotlights off."

I was wondering where the lights were coming from!

[Kresalak]

Hmm, I wonder what Miko would do if she learned that Shojo isn't even Lawful...

[Miles_Pilitus]

I really don't get why Roy should feel so dirty. Aristocrat is an excellent NPC class, with a high amount of usable skill and starting proficiencies. A 14th level aristocrat is at least as good as a PC, mostly because they are gonna have a boatload of resources to fall back upon, like a kingdom.

[Flak_Razorwill]

I've been duped by the old guy at the tavern, too. Sucks to be an adventurer sometimes.

[Winged One]

I love a good LOL. However, there's nothing shameful about getting fooled by somebody who has a high CHA from age, Bluff as a class skill, 14th level, and probably a bunch of cash to up his Bluff even further. Still, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the funny trumps all! ;D

[Jaguar]

Great strip! Well and truly worth the wait, and still leaving me hanging on wondering what's going to be the point to all this.

Remember: Haley noticed that there was something wrong because of the verdict given. She knew that they should have been judged as guilty - so to me, that says that yes, the trial itself was completely false.

Erg! So many questiosn still unanswered! Yes! It IS a weekend cliffhanger! :P

[TeaDragon]

Wow, I haven't roared with laughter like that in quite a while. So very worth waiting for. And my favorite line is also "turn off the spotlights." In fact, I laughed so hard there it took me a while to get back to the comic, and my husband had to come see what I was doing and read along. And I'm really glad we finally found out what Haley figured out. Call me crazy, but that was the biggest cliffhanger of this whole story arc for me!

Giant, I hope your loved one is better. :(

[indianajoe]

"Meat Loaf Day" I Love it!

[captheather]

But, but . . . but I like Meatloaf. I mean, Bat Out of Hell, Paradise by the Dashboard Lig . . . (what? oh?) . . . erm never mind. :P

Don't worry, Two out of three ain't bad.... ;)

I loved this comic. I will admit I got a little bristly when the ninja didn't like meatloaf day, because I really like meatloaf. Then I remembered cafeteria meatloaf and shuddered in horror. Public school lunch flashback ... ewww!

I loved the fact that Shojo called Haley second in command (better not let V know that) and the I feel dirty comment in the last panel.

I really loved this comic because there were so many great moments packed into it while advancing Shojo's character very well.

And in a break from tradition, I will straight out admit that I was WRONG in my prediction of who wasn't who they seemed. My thought was that Loki had taken the place of the being of good and law to play a trick, bring the northern pantheon back into play, and thus rendered a ridiculous verdict. While I do think it would have been o good trick, I think I like this better. I try not to underestimate NPCs in games after some nasty tricks a GM played. Yet I still underestimated Shojo.

Bravo, I say, bravo!

[Martok]

"I feel dirty inside."

Classic!

Thanks Rich; that was well worth waiting for.

[infiniteviking]

"Your second-in-command... is as astute as she is lovely."

For some reason that line gave me a flashback to Galaxy Quest: "Perhaps I am not as stupid as I am ugly, Commander?"

Hahahaha! Roy's expression.... 'When did he become sane?' Brilliant. And the meatloaf thing!? Shojo has it easy, doesn't he -- deciding what he likes and answering to no one. And he's not even lawful!? Heh, fooled me too. So is he Neutral or Chaotic? And was the 'Lawful Good' entity really lawful, or just another ruse?

Hmm... what's so humiliating about being tricked by an NPC? (says the wide-eyed gaming n00b)

Can't wait for Monday!

[Devoured_Dude]

Ah, the plot thickens. Quite a bit, it practically congeals.

Roy shouldn't feel bad about being fooled by an NPC class, it's the same DM doing the fooling.

Great comic, Giant! Worth the wait! Best wishes to those friends of yours with the rather bad luck.

[Bakta]

Who in their right minds would kill him over meatloaf?



hmm, Belkar Throg, the Swedish Chef and about anyone with tastebuds.

Given it was a ninja they sent, Shojo might want to check if Irons Chefs are after him, they look pretty efficient with those knives.

[The_Kobold_Hero]

I have a feeling that the "i'm not even lawful" thing withh start a whole lot of speculation about Shojo's "ture motives."

Great comic as per-usual! 8)

[totalnerduk]

Hahahah. That's quality. Fooled by an NPC... Feel dirty inside.... I love it. Worth the wait. :D

[Krytha]

If Shojo started life as a level 0 aristocrat and its been a million years, I figured he'd be more than level 14. Maybe even epic level...

[silvadel]

That just means he has been 14 levels since 3.0 -- before that NPCs had 1d6 hit points.

[garylian]

OK, obviously even later than I had hoped today, but here's yesterday's comic.

Maybe not everyone gets it, but I can tell you this from my perspective:

Whenever you find the time to post these comics amidst your busy days, is always the right time.

This was a great comic. And I can't wait for the questsions he has to ask, and I am just waiting for a "Favor".

Awesome, Giant!

[Pester]

"Favor" is code for "Sidequest".

[Abd al-Azrad]

Remember: Haley noticed that there was something wrong because of the verdict given. She knew that they should have been judged as guilty - so to me, that says that yes, the trial itself was completely false.

OOOOOh. Right. I was wondering how Haley could have possibly figured out that the whole thing was a ruse.
...And that with Elan going on about how the whole thing was wrong because of the sense of drama... and then Haley realises that it's all an act... Geez, this is getting complex. Like, jumping-back-and-forth-calling-various-elements-from-different-comics-throughout-the-whole-story-arc complex.
Or I'm just stupid. I'm fine with admitting I'm just stupid. ;)

[CommanderFalken]

W000000000T!!!!!!

Burlew has done it again, folks!

What an amazing strip. Finally, we're out (mostly) of the drama, and back into the goofiness.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

Amazing.

[Hyrael]

well done Giant. worth the wait, very worth it. though i am beginning to miss the old "mr scruffy" act. It would have been cool if Sojo was senile, but still a competent ruler. Meh, but then, Im an idiot, so what do i know? this is probably funnier, and made roy feel dirty inside, which is always a pleasure to see.

Meatloaf Day...I can just imagine. :) LOL :)

[WildBill]

Totally worth the wait. I hope things are better with the loved one Rich.

[BrockGarthok]

I have to say "I feel dirty inside" ranks up there with "Your approval fills me with shame." Roy gets all the truly great lines.

"Be like boy!"
"Be like boy!"
"Now the old people in the back! Be like boy!"
"We like Roy!"

[Odd_Thomas]

lol, very nice.

"Meat loaf day" assassin.

[theKOT]

I have to say "I feel dirty inside" ranks up there with "Your approval fills me with shame." Roy gets all the truly great lines.

"Be like boy!"
"Be like boy!"
"Now the old people in the back! Be like boy!"
"We like Roy!"
Aaag! Simpsons reference!!!
Yeah, it is always great to see the fearless leader cut down a few notches.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Rich, you evil, evil man. You are ruining the people's sanity (the ones in your own comic, I mean) with these freakish twits, turns, hijinx and paradoxes! Do you know how many Ewoks died trying to get rid of the Paradox Police LAST TIME?!

[Samiam303]

Fabulous job, Rich... I'm changing my avatar text in honor of today's (yesterday's) strip. ;D

[PhoeKun]

I have to say "I feel dirty inside" ranks up there with "Your approval fills me with shame." Roy gets all the truly great lines.

"Be like boy!"
"Be like boy!"
"Now the old people in the back! Be like boy!"
"We like Roy!"

And that, ladies and gentlemen, was the most convoluted means of a Simpsons reference in the history of the seven internets.

In other news, this was a great comic. Worth the wait. Poor, poor Roy. Also, poor Miko. I can't imagine what she'd do if she knew...

EDIT: And when you zone out for a second while posting, you risk getting the crap simu-posted out of you. Darn you, The KOT!

[Oznstuff]

And Shojo proves the axiom "Old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm every time." Now will someone please turn off these dang spotlights?! ;D

[Kish]

Hmm... what's so humiliating about being tricked by an NPC? (says the wide-eyed gaming n00b)

It's not about being tricked by an NPC, per se--Nale is also an NPC--it's about being tricked by someone with an NPC class, because NPC classes tend to be weaker than PC classes. Commoner is the class ordinary peasants are, and it has nothing to recommend it (d4 hit dice, proficient in one weapon only and no armor, etc.). Warrior is the class a normal foot soldier is, and it's effectively a fighter with d8 hit dice and no bonus feats.

Aristocrat, though, is different. It's an NPC class not because it's weaker than PC classes (it's roughly on par with them), but because it presumes a background (being established nobility) that PCs generally aren't allowed to start with unless it's a major theme of the game. Similar NPC classes are Expert (arguably as powerful as a PC class, with a ton of useful skills, but negligible combat abilities that make it overpowered in an intrigue-based low or no-combat campaign and dead weight in a standard dungeon crawl) and Adept (cross betwen arcane and divine spellcaster, designed for roles like shaman of a goblin tribe).

[Aeek]

"A few years ago" Shojo's hair was grey, was that Before Miko ?

Haley 2IC ? Then again who else, makes sense when I think about it, apart from "feminine products".

[Kish]

See OtOoPCs. :P

--Although, as far as what's in the strip, Shojo just jumped to a conclusion.

[Evik]

hehehe
good one today!
oh yeah!
"I feel dirty inside..."

[theKOT]

Hmmm, yaknow, I think that the Giant might have had them move out onto the balcony to give the reader a "breath of fresh air" after all that heavy, in-the-spotlight courtroom stuff. Hey, it worked for me. I actually remembered the smell of fresh air at that moment. That might sound strange, but it hasn't rained here in Arizona for four and a half months, so the air is pretty stagnant. Anyway, I liked the change of scenery.

[rwald]

I'm guessing that their being on the balcony will become very important in some later comic. I've got absolutely no idea how that will happen; it just seems like the sort of thing which only happens for a reason.

[Maxymiuk]

Heh, looks like Miss Starshine just became Lt. Starshine.

This has the taste of some obscure reference which I can't recall just at this moment.

[Tariskat]

So, Kish? You know these things, obviously.. so what do "PC" and "NPC" stand for? PC being the main character types, and NPC non.. player.. characters?? :-[
Thanks!

[Kish]

Yes, Player Character and Non-Player Character. Redcloak finds this terminology deeply offensive. :P

[Curunir]

Wonderful, wonderful.
I just finished DMing that lasted for 12h (i have sleept 6h since friday, and it's sunday morning here). Durunig every game break I checked to see, if new oots is up. And when I finaly got it. I just have no words.
(and one of my npc's became aristocrat, instead of some class level, thanks to it. :P ) Sry about my mistakes I am to tired to check them. And I have to be in my theatre rehersal in 2h. + my stats has so huge penalties, that I can't spell the word: Tnnses, nor grammar.... Wait I just did. I hope.
Okei, I'll be quiet now.

[Tariskat]

Okay, just making sure. It never seemed to be a problem, me not knowing the terminology, until Roy found it so very offensive, too!
Thanks.

Edit: Cool, I'm a dwarf! I'll celebrate with a new avatar...

[Kirinith]

Shojo's lack of paladin levels wasn't entirely unpredictable; If you'll note his cloak, you see that it lacks the white stripe that, apperantly, denotes the rank of a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard.

On another note: always a pleasure catching your comics, Giant ;D

[humanpylon]

Loved the shaming of Roy via NPC classes. Also, I'm a big fan of Meat Loaf Day. Now I wonder if there's a ninja backstory...


Someone's probably already made this joke but...
I avoid Meatloaf day like a bat out of hell ;D

[Vernal]

YAAAAAH!!
It is too early in the morning for me to be too coherant, not to mention my fully enjoying the liquid celebration of my brother's birthday, but NPC class and Meat Loaf Day was hilarious.
I didn't bother reading the six pages between this post and this so I'll let the normal course of converation continue now.

[gadren]

NPCs classes are the shiznit.
Double the hitdice for the CR.

[metalphil]

Someone's probably already made this joke but...
I avoid Meatloaf day like a bat out of hell ;D

That was a lemon and I want my money back. ;)

[Jefepato]

Giant, you win.

[Alfryd]

Good work. I look forward to Monday.

In other news, this was a great comic. Worth the wait. Poor, poor Roy. Also, poor Miko. I can't imagine what she'd do if she knew...
Perhaps this is another reason she gets sent on long, out of the way solo quests.

[Albion]

Exciting!
Cool!
Surprising!
Funny! ;D

This one had it all. For whomever mentioned Lt. Starshine, stop giving me problems gulping down my morning coffee. ;)

[RBloom0566]

Shojo clearly stated that he commanded the paladins and that the clerics and paladins of the Sapphire Guard were real. THEY (clerics) are the one who summoned the being of Pure Law and Good, not Shojo.

And the being of Pure Law and Good was there to pass judgement on the OotS, not question Shojo on his Class and Alignment, so don't even bother with a "why wasn't there a conflict of interest" arguement.

The best strip I've seen since the battle in the storeroom. "Halflings are good at throwing other things beside daggers," indeed!


If the whole trial was a setup, why did they capture them in the first place? and how did the clerics manage to summon up a higher being that's not really lawful, but looks like one?

[Lord Herman]

This is the bestest comic in a long line of bestest comics, just like the last 288!

Yay for aristocrats! Makes me want to play one...

[Baloo]

NPCs classes are the shiznit.
Double the hitdice for the CR.
Sorry, only one more HD. The CR of an NPC class is its level minus 1.

Unless you use the ones from Iron Heroes, that is.

[Delgarde]

A solid comic. Slightly predictable from the last pane of #288, but still with some surprise. In hindsight, it's obvious that Shojo would have Aristocrat levels - that's his background as heir to the throne. But the idea that he commands a religious order without any real background for the role - that's very unusual. You'd think that given he knew from a young age that he'd inherit the role, he'd have gone through some training as a paladin or cleric, if only for a few levels.

In any case, Hinjo must think so, since he actually is a paladin, if a somewhat junior one. I wonder if it was his idea to become one, or if his uncle thought he should do it?

[team56th]

Giant's Giant delay and Giant reversal. This strip is Giant.

[Delgarde]

Shojo clearly stated that he commanded the paladins and that the clerics and paladins of the Sapphire Guard were real. THEY (clerics) are the one who summoned the being of Pure Law and Good, not Shojo.

That's not to say it *was* real though. Shojo may need his senile act in front of the general nobility, but can be his real self when dealing with the Sapphire Guard. Assuming not all of the guard are as zealous as Miko, I think he'd be able to find people willing to help run a staged trial, creating illusions for the Being if necessary.

Afterall, it's presumably all in a good cause, and while running such a mockery of law may be a little distasteful to some of the paladins, I don't consider it an outright chaotic act, not something they'd refuse Shojo's orders over.

[Nighthawk4]

Well worth the wait - especially as Haley is the only one smart enough to realise the old man was fooling them. :D

[zimri]

That's not to say it *was* real though. Shojo may need his senile act in front of the general nobility, but can be his real self when dealing with the Sapphire Guard. Assuming not all of the guard are as zealous as Miko, I think he'd be able to find people willing to help run a staged trial, creating illusions for the Being if necessary.

Afterall, it's presumably all in a good cause, and while running such a mockery of law may be a little distasteful to some of the paladins, I don't consider it an outright chaotic act, not something they'd refuse Shojo's orders over.


"And no one knows"

"no one"

HE is still Good though and likely isn't hindering the Paladins too much in the lawful aspect. In fact setting things up so that he can make the decisions that need made rather than having different "houses" swaying politics and policies on thier whim seems more lawful than the other way around to me.

It's also likely that the paladins/clerics know that barring some unforseen circumstance Hinjo (who is LG ) will come to the throne one day so since it is a self correcting problem (and most likely in the short term at that) there is no reason to revolt and oust Shojo for this relatively minor at best chaotic act.

Unless of course Miko finds out and tries to usurp control

[Single Shot Zombie]

Ouch, poor Roy. That must be a real injury to his ego........

[Aiani]

Ah I got a good laugh out of that and after a long day (night really) of work I think I needed. Definitely worth the wait.

[Max_Sinister]

Man, Giant, it's getting better and better. "Not speaking Common"... Shojo not being a Paladin, or even Lawful... that's great. Thx very much!

[Gez]

Lord Shojo reminds me of Henri IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_IV), who decided that every Sunday should be Chicken Stew Day; and was later assassinated.

Though it's not sure if Ravaillac's motive was a deep-seeted hatred for chicken stew or not.

[WTFWWD]

Giant, once again you do well. Let me count the ways:

1) No Haley Cypher (Can she pantamime all the time...please?)

2) Excellent plot idea (Crazy=safe from assasination, clever)

3) Pulling one over on the PC's with a NPC class, priceless!

[Gus]

a very good and entertaining one =) the NPC class joke was great =D

[Sebastian]

Giant, if that is the level of your comic when you take your time to do them, I wouldn't mind you move to a 2/week schedule. :D

Does the paladins know that Shoio is not only a non-paladin, but he is not even lawful?

[Lightman]

Oh my god...late but worth it. Stop the classism! NPCs deserve equal rights!

[terrainmonkey]

friggin' hilarious as always giant. bravo! well worth every second of the wait.
:) :) :)

[Gez]

Does the paladins know that Shoio is not only a non-paladin, but he is not even lawful?


They can see whether he's evil or not (my guess here is "not"), but they can't detect law, chaos, or good. By casting the four detect <alignment> spells in sequence, a cleric could find out what alignment Shojo is; but I guess this would be considered impolite.

[Vampire_Boy]

This was very good. Ah, if only Miko would know that Shojo is playing them all for fools! I'd love to see the look on her face. ;)

I am still interested in what Shojo has to say to Roy. I am slightly mistrustful of the old fart, if he can manipulate a whole city and an order of Paladins to do his bidding, then I certainly would not trust his word - but then Roy is aware of this and suspicous as well.

I can imagine him asking Roy to check on the other gates, perhaps. Maybe even offering to let Belkar go free if they choose to help him. The fact that he could easily make sure that Belkar gets a death sentence for his 'Exalted Deeds of Goodness' gives him a trump card in negotiations.

[Sylian]

I wonder what alignment Shojo is. I guess that he's Neutral Good.

Edit, and of course Haley's the second in command.
V doesn't have the Charisma, and Durkon doesn't seem to want to lead. Haley took command when Roy was gone in the bandit subplot, Haley lead the second scouting party in the start of the comic.

[Ebon_Drake]

Great strip today, Giant. Well worth the wait. It was IMHO perfectly balanced between decent plot progression and excellent jokes. Kudos to you for posting a strip at all, as if I'd been in your position I don't know if I would have even been able to come up with something humourous, let alone script and illustrate a full comic strip, so for that, i thank you. :)

[Gez]

I'm sure the paladins themselves know that Shojo isn't a paladin class-wise. (Remember the strip where Miko explained she was a samurai-the-title, but not a samurai-the-class ?)

Etymologically, a paladin is an imperial knight. The word is derived from the same root word as "palace". They're an Emperor's elite guards, but the Emperor himself cannot be a paladin since he's the Emperor.

Well, there's a bit of the same principle here. Since Soon Kim transferred command of the Sapphire Guard to Shojo's dad, the Sapphire Guard hasn't been commanded by a paladin, but by the ruler of Azure City. You don't ask the ruler of a city to be always fighting evil abroad, since he has to keep his butts on the throne and rule. He can go fighting from time to time, when the country is at war, but the Sapphire Guard's operations were not operations of wars.

Shojo's dad probably never qualified as a stalwart holy warrior, but presumably Soon Kim saw he was a just and wise leader -- not necessarily someone who kicks butts like a champ, but rather someone that can make the good decisions quickly and know how to motivate men and be obeyed by them.

Beside, the paladins probably believe, since Shojo think that no one knows his senility is just an act, that Shojo is a senile old man. A senile old man cannot be a paladin.

[U2QueenBee]

LOL! Meatloaf day! NPC levels! Hee hee...love it. Worth the wait Giant! :D

[CommanderFalken]

and of course Haley's the second in command.
V doesn't have the Charisma, and Durkon doesn't seem to want to lead. Haley took command when Roy was gone in the bandit subplot, Haley lead the second scouting party in the start of the comic.

Not to mention that she said that the others voted her 2nd-in-command in Origin of the PC's, and asked for a higher pay scale ;).

[Vitas]

Great comic Rich;)

Btw while Shojo may be a 14th level aristocrat, Azure city is still ruled by Mr. Scruffy, the 15th level AristoCat 8)

[Jaime]

*giggle* That was SO worth the wait. Best wishes to you, Giant.

[rebellioussong]

Giant, you are amazing.... more than worth the wait.... Shojo is a lot smarter than any of us imagened

btw, if anyone knows, what is haley's charisma?

[theKOT]

btw, if anyone knows, what is haley's charisma?
Check the "Class and Level Geekery" thread. I think someone said it was 13 or more....

[Vampire_Boy]

Beside, the paladins probably believe, since Shojo think that no one knows his senility is just an act, that Shojo is a senile old man. A senile old man cannot be a paladin.

What, you mean no paladin lives to reach old age?

[kerberos]

Does Meat Loaf Day mean anything? I assumed that it was just inserted to be silly, but some of the posts seem to imply that there is such a thing.

[Wntrrvn]

Long live Meatloaf day!

[WeaponMasterLDO]

What, you mean no paladin lives to reach old age?

No, I keep killing them to make the world a better place.

[fithi]

*snicker* Great comic, Giant!

[Kord]

Meatloaf day...what an odd day that would be...

[JazzManJim]

Giant, if that is the level of your comic when you take your time to do them, I wouldn't mind you move to a 2/week schedule. :D

Does the paladins know that Shoio is not only a non-paladin, but he is not even lawful?



Mozactly!

It doesn't matter what Shojo is. The Paladin's Code is to follow the rightful leader of the SG provided he gives "lawful" (read that as "proper" orders), just like the elite soldiers they are.

So long as he's not actively pursuing evil ends, they're going to follow his orders because, essentially, his words are Law for them.

Though is too sweet to see that Giant has confounded the masses with a very simple, very elegant explanation about Shojo. Simply beautiful! :)

[Gleanerizer]

I actually recognized "Meat Loaf" in the comic for what it is--the singer dude, not the dish (which is spelled as one word, "meatloaf"), due to the spacing and capitalization. That just made the joke ten times funnier, IMO. Apparently that ninja wasn't a fan. ;D

[Gez]

What, you mean no paladin lives to reach old age?

Not when they're created old. :P

Now, a paladin may become old, but will he stay on active duty once he's senile? Would a feebleminded wizard keep his job at the Peculiar Arcane Research Center?

[Gefangnis]

Haha! Meat loaf day.

NPC classes really are awful...

[gadren]

Sorry, only one more HD. The CR of an NPC class is its level minus 1.

Unless you use the ones from Iron Heroes, that is.



Pg. 294 of the 3.5 Monster Manual under Nonassociated Class Levels states the nonassociated levels increases the CR by 1/2 per level and that NPC classes are always considered nonassociated levels.

[kerberos]

Not when they're created old. :P

Now, a paladin may become old, but will he stay on active duty once he's senile? Would a feebleminded wizard keep his job at the Peculiar Arcane Research Center?

Only on the Discworld.

[Vampire_Boy]

Only on the Discworld.

I was just about to say that! In fact, on Discworld, being feebleminded probably would be a requirement... ;D

[Sc00by]

Great strip!

And we can credit Elan for it... If he hadn't tipped Hayley off She may never have realized what was going on (you have to have a sniff of something to make the roll in teh 1st place ;) )and Roy may have had the team half way to the border by now!

Instead we get a couple of rule jokes and a step into plot progression! :o

[ElfLad]

I actually recognized "Meat Loaf" in the comic for what it is--the singer dude, not the dish (which is spelled as one word, "meatloaf"), due to the spacing and capitalization. That just made the joke ten times funnier, IMO. Apparently that ninja wasn't a fan. ;D


Well, duh. Everybody knows that ninjas rock out to the Beatles.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not about being tricked by an NPC, per se--Nale is also an NPC--it's about being tricked by someone with an NPC class, because NPC classes tend to be weaker than PC classes. Commoner is the class ordinary peasants are, and it has nothing to recommend it (d4 hit dice, proficient in one weapon only and no armor, etc.). Warrior is the class a normal foot soldier is, and it's effectively a fighter with d8 hit dice and no bonus feats.

Aristocrat, though, is different. It's an NPC class not because it's weaker than PC classes (it's roughly on par with them), but because it presumes a background (being established nobility) that PCs generally aren't allowed to start with unless it's a major theme of the game. Similar NPC classes are Expert (arguably as powerful as a PC class, with a ton of useful skills, but negligible combat abilities that make it overpowered in an intrigue-based low or no-combat campaign and dead weight in a standard dungeon crawl) and Adept (cross betwen arcane and divine spellcaster, designed for roles like shaman of a goblin tribe).
I'd consider Aristocrats, Experts, and Adepts underpowered compared to Bards, Rogues, and Clerics respectively, though not as sucky as Warriors or -- gods help them -- Commoners.

Anyway, while a fighter is inevitably better at combat than a warrior thanks to bonus feats, an aristocrat can can compete with a bard in the realm of social influence. While Shojo doesn't get as many base skill points per level as Elan, he's not an adventurer and thus doesn't have to put them into skills like, say, Tumble. He doesn't need good physical stats, either, so his highest rolls can all go into mental stats. And having a higher Int (again, contrast Elan) gives him more skill points, higher Wis helps with Sense Motive, etc. There's no shame in being successfully bluffed by an aristocrat, really.

And, of course, an aristocrat's power to influence people comes from station and wealth as much as from class features.

An NPC, even one with an NPC class, can easily be better than PCs at something, because while a PC may be more powerful overall, a lot of his/her skill-set is focused on meeting the needs of adventuring. NPCs who don't need to be able to survive a fight can be experts in other areas.


Yes, Player Character and Non-Player Character. Redcloak finds this terminology deeply offensive. :P
Well, he does have a point. It would make more sense to call them something that actually describes what they are, rather than what they aren't. Being defined solely in contrast to PCs is kind of insulting. They really should lobby to get that terminology changed.

DGSWTUDBTSOPNCs unite! ;D

[Arakune]

hehe, that's "I feel dirty" remembered me the Metroid, Third directive from the site www.bobandgeorge.com.

one of the best lines ever

[leoaxt]

Good one.

[redmind0]

Woot. plot development

[HBKnight]

Meh.

[Bilbo27]

Another good comic Rich.
I am so glad Meatloaf day never made it to the USA! We would all be assassins!
Can't wait to read Mondays--its on;y a Day.......A.......WAAAAAYYYY!

[Firewheels]

ObStrokingTheGiant'sEgo:

Long time reader, first time poster. Rich, late or early, I have yet to see a bad comic from you. Always riveting, usually laugh-inspiring. OoTS is one of only two webcomics that I still read regularly.

Regarding the trial:

[SPOILER] (only because it might affect the next sideplot)




Two points:

The Sapphire City's clerics were supposed to be summoning "A being of pure law and good". This could very well be only as Hinjo understood it, or was told. (Ep 267) The being itself, however, is quoted as saying "Vengeance shall be brought upon the guilty! There shall be no excuses!" This sounds like the words of a pure lawful being, neither good nor evil. The being is only concerned with the law, not with justice.

That being said, the OoTS was accused of "weakening the fabric of the universe in which we live". Did they? No. The rifts were pre-existing. The gates existed to shield the rifts from those who would make use of them, and to "spackle" them.

Now, had the OoTS been accused of destroying a gate -- yep, they'd have been guilty. The upper-planar being had no choice but to declare the OoTS not guilcup... err... not guilty.

Was the trial a sham? Of course it was. Lord Shojo came up with an accuastion that was close to the truth but wouldn't hold up in a court of pure law.

[metalphil]

Two points:

The Sapphire City's clerics were supposed to be summoning "A being of pure law and good". This could very well be only as Hinjo understood it, or was told. (Ep 267) The being itself, however, is quoted as saying "Vengeance shall be brought upon the guilty! There shall be no excuses!" This sounds like the words of a pure lawful being, neither good nor evil. The being is only concerned with the law, not with justice.

That being said, the OoTS was accused of "weakening the fabric of the universe in which we live". Did they? No. The rifts were pre-existing. The gates existed to shield the rifts from those who would make use of them, and to "spackle" them.

Now, had the OoTS been accused of destroying a gate -- yep, they'd have been guilty. The upper-planar being had no choice but to declare the OoTS not guilcup... err... not guilty.

Was the trial a sham? Of course it was. Lord Shojo came up with an accuastion that was close to the truth but wouldn't hold up in a court of pure law.



That's not necessarily true. One can get off murder charges when the defense claims self-defense. If that's the case you could argue the same thing happened here.. Roy & company got off on a "self defense" kind of defense, not because Shojo had secretly rigged the trial. The charge may have been bad, but until we find out what his motive is, there's no way to argue that he rigged the trial.

Great strip. :D

[TinSoldier]

When I first read the comic, I thought that Meat Loaf was referring to the tasty dish made with hamburger, spices, and some other filler. I didn't even realize the double entendre until I read this thread, even though I started a thread about Shojo with a Meat Loaf reference. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1141439282 )

I guess we can only assume that instead of insisting on serving that tasty dish, the Sapphire Guards Boy's Choir would sing Jim Steinman songs to the local populace!

[Chadhulhu]

Must be the singer.. I loves the meat loaf with a side of garlic mashed potatoes..
I do have a question tho.. Would the Lawful being, know shojo's true being, and react to it?

[The Doctor]

OK, obviously even later than I had hoped today, but here's yesterday's comic.

I luckily missed all the dumb flaming and ranting as I was at a Con this weekend (Good bit: we gotta fight a dragon! Bad bit: It kept flying away from me so I couldn't hit it. Meh. The coward).
Anway, good comic (Meat Loaf day, heh), though of course that ol' geezer never fooled me (and 14th lvl aristocrat is pretty tough - he must have maxed out Bluff ranks, too).
And I hope your family is doing well, mr Burlew.

[Delgarde]

Does the paladins know that Shoio is not only a non-paladin, but he is not even lawful?


I imagine so. The strip suggests that Shojo's problem is with the city nobility, not with those sworn to the Sapphire Guard - which afterall doesn't officially exist. I'd say he's pretty open about such things when dealing with that exclusive group.

Besides, Shojo is the son of the previous commander of the guard - it's not like he's some mysterious figure who wandered in and took over. Members of the guard would likely have been his protectors and companions as he grew up - they'd know him as well as they could know anyone.

[Silverblaze]

Hmmm... Considering that there are about 14 pages worth of messages, I'll admit that I haven read them all closely... My point is - Has it been discussed that Old Man Shojo referred to Haley as Roy's "Second in Command" ? Not really sure how the party structure is in that regard, but partly due to old ties, I would have thought that Durkon would be the most natural choice. The party rogue as XO doesn't seem quite right...

[The Glyphstone]

It's in OtOoPC's:


The other group members agree to elect Haley as second in command, who will take over if Roy dies. In exchange for their support, she will not steal all their belongings during the night.[/color]

[Silverblaze]

It's in OtOoPC's:


The other group members agree to elect Haley as second in command, who will take over if Roy dies. In exchange for their support, she will not steal all their belongings during the night.[/color]


Ok - Now I haven't read On The Origin of PCs, but surely this has to be a joke on your part, right?! I wouldn't put it past Big G to pull a stunt like that, but still ??? ;D

[The Glyphstone]

No joke...it's on page 70.

[Kish]

The party rogue as XO doesn't seem quite right...
If we must be class-stereotypical (which is okay, because Haley actually is a pretty good example of the rogue stereotypes I detest :P)--she's certainly a better choice than the backup warrior, or the character with the highest Charisma. :P

[Gez]

Well, he does have a point. It would make more sense to call them something that actually describes what they are, rather than what they aren't. Being defined solely in contrast to PCs is kind of insulting. They really should lobby to get that terminology changed.

There was a French game that called them PMJ (personnages du maître du jeu) instead of PNJ (personnages non joueurs, the exact translation of NPC), so I guess you could call them DMC... Somebody finds of what MPC would be an acronym of, with M for Master and C for Character? Master-Played Characters? Master's Pet Characters? Master's Private Characters? Master's Proprietary Characters?
;)


Hmmm... Considering that there are about 14 pages worth of messages, I'll admit that I haven read them all closely... My point is - Has it been discussed that Old Man Shojo referred to Haley as Roy's "Second in Command" ? Not really sure how the party structure is in that regard, but partly due to old ties, I would have thought that Durkon would be the most natural choice. The party rogue as XO doesn't seem quite right...

Shojo may not know that Haley was indeed officially entitled this post, but he could have guessed it by the way the other members of the party behaved with regard to her, and in contrast with how she did. Miko may also have told him that.

[Overlord Jack Chainer]

ewww npc class ... *shudder* i feel dirty just hearing it.

[Chlodwig]

So if Shojo isn't lawful.....

Is he good? :) (as in alignment... obviously he is a good liar :) )

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

Roy really shouldn't be suprised by getting fooled by Shojo. Take a look at a sampling of the aristocrat skill set:

bluff
diplomacy
disguise
gather info
perform

A human with INT 10 can max out on all those without trouble. Roy seems to have a painful habit of underestimating those whose skillsets lie outside the combat domain (I.E. Haley, Elan, Nale, the hag, and now Shojo).

[Grey Watcher]

Roy really shouldn't be suprised by getting fooled by Shojo. Take a look at a sampling of the aristocrat skill set:

bluff
diplomacy
disguise
gather info
perform

A human with INT 10 can max out on all those without trouble. Roy seems to have a painful habit of underestimating those whose skillsets lie outside the combat domain (I.E. Haley, Elan, Nale, the hag, and now Shojo).

And Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=112). Don't forget Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=120).

But, yeah, I hadn't really noticed, but Shojo does have a much more dignified air now, and it's because he's not slouching anymore.

[mec]

Previous mention of meatloaf surprise:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=120

[TinSoldier]

While strip 120 mentions meatloaf surprise, it also seems that Shojo is not acting senile in that scene. I think Miko and the rest of the Sapphire Guard knows he's just putting on an act.

[Sebastian]

Not when they're created old. :P

Now, a paladin may become old, but will he stay on active duty once he's senile? Would a feebleminded wizard keep his job at the Peculiar Arcane Research Center?
What do you mean "senile"? Everyone knows than more you get old more you get smart, wise and charming (also your hearing and sight improve, and in some old edition you were better at riding horses)

[Freeman333]

I get the feeling that Roy--who's had to put up with a lot of crap from his dad about what a poor choice he made in becoming a fighter--has got kind of a blind spot when it comes to characters who are good at things other than combat. After all, that's what NPC classes are all about: characters who are good at doing things other than adventuring, which typically means things other than combat (with the exception of Warriors and Adepts, who are good at combat but not as good as PC classes, which fits the mold of PCs being "exceptional individuals" while Warriors and Adepts are just "average individuals" who have combat-oriented jobs). It's no big thing to be fooled by a character with a massive Bluff score, regardless of their class--an Aristocrat or Expert could have a Bluff just as high as a Rogue of equal level, and Roy wouldn't feel any shame about being fooled by a Rogue (well, he might, but for different reasons).

Okay, now that I've posited (no, that's not a typo) possible character motivations, I've got a question. Shojo deliberately leaves vague his exact number of Aristocrat levels, but clearly he's got plenty of them--possibly more than Roy has fighter levels, as the Order seems to be somewhere around the 12 range. My question is: how did Shojo earn the levels? PCs earn XP by defeating monsters and finishing quests. Typically, the bulk of their XP comes from fights, though some comes from story and roleplaying awards, and a generous DM could award XP for performing class-related tasks (a fighter might get XP for making weapons, a rogue might get XP for picking pockets, a bard might get XP for performing, etc.). Fourteen levels (or thereabouts) is a heck of a lot of XP to earn just through story awards, though.

Of course, Shojo is obviously an old man. A PC in an XP-heavy game (like, say, one I run) might get to 14th level in no more than a couple of years, while it's clearly taken Shojo most of his fairly long life to get where he is. Has his advancement just been a slow, steady process, earning a few XP every day for the mundane tasks of running the city and commanding the Sapphire Guard? Or (since Aristocrats are automatically proficient with simple & martial weapons) has Shojo picked up the sword a few times and gone out to slay evil with the rest of 'em? I have trouble seeing it, but it's not impossible...


(The reason I ask all this is, whenever I've got NPCs with more than one or two levels in their NPC class in my game, I always rack my brain trying to figure out how they earned enough XP to get them where they are. For Warriors and Adepts it's not hard, but if I've got a seventh-level Expert or a tenth-level Aristocrat in the game, I always struggle to explain to myself how I can justify non-combat characters being that high level...)

[Wrecan]

if I've got a seventh-level Expert or a tenth-level Aristocrat in the game, I always struggle to explain to myself how I can justify non-combat characters being that high level...)

You get XP for overcoming challenges, not killing monsters. A challenge for an Aristocrat may outmaneuvering a political rival or unraveling a conspiracy. It doesn't have to have anything to do with adventuring.

I am sure Shojo got XP for successfully surviving an attack by the Meatloaf Antipathy Ninja Squad (M.A.N.S.) He also mentions that as leader of Azure City he does a lot of political maneuvering. He could rack up the XP relatively quickly in that fashion, though not as fast as adventurers do.

[Wrecan]

Previous mention of meatloaf surprise:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=120




Brilliant! Thog may be from the Southern Lands!

[TinSoldier]

<snip>
Okay, now that I've posited (no, that's not a typo) possible character motivations, I've got a question. Shojo deliberately leaves vague his exact number of Aristocrat levels, but clearly he's got plenty of them--possibly more than Roy has fighter levels, as the Order seems to be somewhere around the 12 range. My question is: how did Shojo earn the levels? PCs earn XP by defeating monsters and finishing quests. Typically, the bulk of their XP comes from fights, though some comes from story and roleplaying awards, and a generous DM could award XP for performing class-related tasks (a fighter might get XP for making weapons, a rogue might get XP for picking pockets, a bard might get XP for performing, etc.). Fourteen levels (or thereabouts) is a heck of a lot of XP to earn just through story awards, though.

Of course, Shojo is obviously an old man. A PC in an XP-heavy game (like, say, one I run) might get to 14th level in no more than a couple of years, while it's clearly taken Shojo most of his fairly long life to get where he is. Has his advancement just been a slow, steady process, earning a few XP every day for the mundane tasks of running the city and commanding the Sapphire Guard? Or (since Aristocrats are automatically proficient with simple & martial weapons) has Shojo picked up the sword a few times and gone out to slay evil with the rest of 'em? I have trouble seeing it, but it's not impossible...


(The reason I ask all this is, whenever I've got NPCs with more than one or two levels in their NPC class in my game, I always rack my brain trying to figure out how they earned enough XP to get them where they are. For Warriors and Adepts it's not hard, but if I've got a seventh-level Expert or a tenth-level Aristocrat in the game, I always struggle to explain to myself how I can justify non-combat characters being that high level...)Killing monsters and stealing treasure is only one way of earning experience. It probably originated that way because D&D comes from wargarme roots and was initially combat-heavy.

Now that we're all about "role-playing" XP can be earned in lots of other ways.

Characters earn XP by doing their jobs, in Shojo's case by being an aristocrat and doing the duties of an aristocrat. That's how NPCs gain levels - by experience in their profession. It's a way of quantifying how good they are.

When your party first encounters an NPC, he may be at a certain level. Later on they may assume that he has gained experience as well, just not by the same road that they have.

That will help make a more dynamic gameworld.

[Freeman333]

I am sure Shojo got XP for successfully surviving an attack by the Meatloaf Antipathy Ninja Squad (M.A.N.S.) He also mentions that as leader of Azure City he does a lot of political maneuvering. He could rack up the XP relatively quickly in that fashion, though not as fast as adventurers do.

I forgot about the assassination attempt. Just surviving an attack like that would probably count as defeating an enemy, regardless of how much fighting he actually did.

I suppose it's a question for a different thread, but I'm curious just how much is a reasonable amount of XP to award someone for performing the basic duties of their profession/lifestyle on a regular basis. For a farmer, getting your potatoes in the ground properly and harvesting them on time is "overcoming a challenge", and since Commoners can be higher than first level (their table goes all the way up to 20th, and I'd love to see a twentieth-level Commoner sometime, just for the sheer weirdness of it) presumably they earn XP for it. The question is, how much?

[kbrennan]

Sean K. Reynolds on 20th level Commoners:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/theoryaboutpeasants.html

[Freeman333]

Sean K. Reynolds on 20th level Commoners:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/theoryaboutpeasants.html

Fascinating! That is, in point of fact, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks, Mr. Brennan. ;D

We now return this thread to your regularly scheduled postings.

[Krytha]

I forgot about the assassination attempt. Just surviving an attack like that would probably count as defeating an enemy, regardless of how much fighting he actually did.

I suppose it's a question for a different thread, but I'm curious just how much is a reasonable amount of XP to award someone for performing the basic duties of their profession/lifestyle on a regular basis. For a farmer, getting your potatoes in the ground properly and harvesting them on time is "overcoming a challenge", and since Commoners can be higher than first level (their table goes all the way up to 20th, and I'd love to see a twentieth-level Commoner sometime, just for the sheer weirdness of it) presumably they earn XP for it. The question is, how much?

... Shojo should be around 20th level not 14 if he's had so much time and experience on the job... or do characters' levels in the game usually hover around the PC levels?

[Melnor]

Giant! You are a genius! Amazing comic!

Best lines: "When did he become insane?" and "Also, we can finally turn the spotlights off."

Hee hee hee

[Gez]

What do you mean "senile"? Everyone knows than more you get old more you get smart, wise and charming (also your hearing and sight improve, and in some old edition you were better at riding horses)

No, no, that's metagame knowledge. While the truth of the reality is that mental stats increase, NPCs still believe that they decrease, for some reason. It's a widespread myth, if you want.

Shojo's guile relies on belief in that myth.

[Murky_Pool]

Anyone know why Hayley looks so unhappy?

[Mal_the_Mad]

how much xp did he get for the successful telling of the snarl story...

[battleburn]

Anyone know why Hayley looks so unhappy?

Roy is too busy listening to Sjojo that he totally forgets looking from the balcony. Sjojo wanted them on the balcony to show them something, what I don't know and I think that would fall under spoilers. But my guess is, whatever there is to see. That is what makes Haley so unhappy.

[Behold_the_Void]

Been lurking for awhile, finally got around to joining.

Anyway, I think 14th level Aristocrat is a very reasonable level for Shojo to be at. One of the major problems I've always found with the D20 system is that they have too much emphasis on the combat and not enough on the diplomatic side of things. Rich's own article on the Diplomacy skill can attest to that. The D20 system is based around the concept of the dungeon crawl, despite the fact that many DMs move away from that (I know I wouldn't put up with a primarily dungeon crawl game. It'd drive me nuts).

When you consider the rediculous power levels characters can get at higher levels, you have to put some kind of a cap on them. Realistically there'd be a crapload of epic level heroes running around (unless the world is really new, which it is not), but there are usually some in-game restrictions applied to prevent that. In this case it'd be up to the DM to judge why these people aren't so strong.

Anyway, enough of that, I'm eager to see the next strip.

[Wrecan]

Sjojo wanted them on the balcony to show them something, what I don't know and I think that would fall under spoilers. But my guess is, whatever there is to see. That is what makes Haley so unhappy.

Here's my spoilerish suggestion: (don't click on this --> 8) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=197) <-- emoticon if you don't like spoilers).

[Unrepentant]

Everytime the strip isn't up by this time of the day, I have a running bet that the following three posts will be represented.

A) Someone is complaining about the strip being late.
B) Someone, who isn't a mod, will politely remind the complainer that the strip isn't late until midnight.
C) Someone, who also isn't a mod, will aggresively remind poster A that the strip is free and possibly make dubious claims about his intelligence, parentage or sexual orientation.

Crap, looks like the mocha frappacino's are on me for once tomorrow. :o

[TinSoldier]

Here's my spoilerish suggestion: (don't click on this --> 8) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=197) <-- emoticon if you don't like spoilers). Interesting theory, but I don't think these are the droids you're looking for.
That is a Hobgoblin city with the other 87 legions. It could be Azure City, but I don't think so.
You had me going at first, though.

[afarrell]

Dude, that really isn't what he's suggesting.

[TinSoldier]

I'll start a new thread on this so we don't spam the main thread, and I really don't know what you mean.

[Kish]

I think he's suggesting that looking over the balcony, Haley sees Xykon's--er, I mean Redcloak's--legions laying siege to Azure City.

I doubt it, though. For starters, I doubt the balcony provides a clear view to the edge of the city.

[Wrecan]

Why not? I'd sort of expect the balcony of Azure City's ruler to be able to survey most of the City. Elan had that view from his prison cell. I'd expect Shojo's view to be at least as spectacular.

[Kish]

Why not?
Because Shojo's already expressed concerns about assassins--to the point of constantly presenting himself as something he isn't to avoid them. Accordingly, I would expect his balcony to open onto nothing not directly guarded.

[theKOT]

I gotta say that is a bit of a stretch Kish.
There are much more logical problems with the theory, which I have already stated in the thread about it.

[The Giant]

OK, no more "nothing but spoiler text" posts, please.

The comic is ETA around 11:00ish, but rest assured that it will be another double-length strip.

[Invariel]

Thanks for the update, Rich.
I look forward to reading it as much as the next person will, I'm sure.

Is your family member doing all right?

[Renmazuo]

Double length strip!? :o

You rock giant ;D

[Hawkeye]

It's a good news/bad news thing for me

good news: double length strip, yay!
bad news: I'm on English time, so I won't be going to bed until 4am ish

[NovaNightmare]

Ha HA HA Ha ha ha... [Regaining Sanity Check] ... [Rolled Natural 20] ... [Sanity Regained, Confirmed Success]... HA!

Wow, a double strip coming! :o In advance thank you.

[Rethorn]

OK, no more "nothing but spoiler text" posts, please.

The comic is ETA around 11:00ish, but rest assured that it will be another double-length strip.

Double legnth? I can't wait to see :) Double legnth = Definately fun stuff

[TheLastOfTheFallen]

OK, no more "nothing but spoiler text" posts, please.

The comic is ETA around 11:00ish, but rest assured that it will be another double-length strip.
one word:

w00t!!!!

Best of all, that is around 10ish my time - yay CST! ;D

[theKOT]

Ha! It's only 9 my time, and in the summer only 8!!! Go Arizona time! "It's to hot to change our clocks twice a year."

Oh yeah, and woot double length!

[Oppolo]

That's 4am in Britain though, being English sucks for Order of the Stick fans :P

[raven-gm]

8 oclock on the west coast!!! yes, I cant wait, this will make my english essay seem more bareible

[Hurlbut]

8 oclock on the west coast!!! yes, I cant wait, this will make my english essay seem more bareible
Incidently I am supposed to do a rough draft of my essay for English soon :P

[ElfLad]

West Coast is the bomb. Yay.

And since I'm at an all-day Knowledge Bowl Regionals meet tomorrow, no homework.

And thanks, Rich. You do so much, and now we're even getting a double-length slightly earlier than usual.

Speaking of which, double-length usually means a huge, drama(and/or story)-packed strip. The only exception was #136, and that was among the funniest of all-time, so it can be forgiven for lack of drama. I'm so looking forward to this.

[Hyrael]

OK, no more "nothing but spoiler text" posts, please.

The comic is ETA around 11:00ish, but rest assured that it will be another double-length strip.

sweeeeeeeeeet, kick-ass, and various other explitives of approval. gonna have to stay up untill...10:00. Woot for time zones! there is and advantage to living in door county, wisconsin (mind boggling though that may seem).

[SirEdward]

sweeeeeeeeeet, kick-ass, and various other explitives of approval. gonna have to stay up untill...10:00. Woot for time zones! there is and advantage to living in door county, wisconsin (mind boggling though that may seem).

That is mind boggling. At least there are some non-tourist based entertainment options in Milwaukee this time of year...if you look hard...look really hard.

[Drizzt_Fanboy_74]

I live in Rich's timezone. Ohio is BORING!

[Gralamin]

*lives in Edmonton* yay for Mountain Time! 2 hours before rich's time!

[Invariel]

You ... you ... you ... fellow Canadian, you!

I just have to wait till Rich's time. Hooray for EST.

[SumGuy]

Wow, theres finally a benefit to living in the California desert. Who knew!

Thanks for the update Giant, visions of sugarplums and double-length strips will be dancing in my head unti then ;D

[Hurlbut]

Wow, theres finally a benefit to living in the California desert. Who knew!

Thanks for the update Giant, visions of sugarplums and double-length strips will be dancing in my head unti then ;D
Move to the coast :P
Cooler than the desert, we get rain more.

[Renmazuo]

*lives in Edmonton* yay for Mountain Time! 2 hours before rich's time!

*lives 3 hours away from Gralamin*

Good to be an Albertan!

How'd you spend your free 400$ ;D

[Drizzt_Fanboy_74]

The refreshing begins...

[Hyrael]

Dang it, still not up. Ill just go watch South Park, then.

[raven-gm]

Blasphemer!

[The Giant]

Still working, this one is complicated. Looks like I won't get it up by 12, but maybe by 12:30.

[theKOT]

Ooo, complicated eh? I'll bet there is some spiffy artwork awaiting us....

[Annalia]

Oooh. Spiffy artworks! And double-lenght! All for our enjoyment!

[Bilbo27]

hey rich, quick question, when are you going to update the news on the home page? It's been over a month. We miss your trials and tribulations. Just curious as I am passing time waiting for the double length issue.

[Cobrateen2000]

hey rich, quick question, when are you going to update the news on the home page? It's been over a month. We miss your trials and tribulations. Just curious as I am passing time waiting for the double length issue.

Ya, I miss those stories too. They are like soap operahs that you actually want to see (and that involve computer problems instead of ... other problems). Seriously, we want to know.


But After Writing The Comic! Go Double Comics! Yay!

[Zaruthustran]

Worth the wait. This plotline is ++ good.

[RBloom0566]

That's a small balcony for the Lord of Azure City. THe one at my apartment is bigger than that. *L*

Reminds me of those college apartment buildings where they put an occupancy limit on how many people can be standing on your deck before it collapses.

[SumGuy]

Move to the coast :P
Cooler than the desert, we get rain more.

Sadly, the United States Marine Corps has deemed that I must remain out in the stumps for the time being. Hopefully that will change.

As for the complexity of the upcoming comic: Giant, take ALL the time you need, it will be worth it.

[Baloo]

Pg. 294 of the 3.5 Monster Manual under Nonassociated Class Levels states the nonassociated levels increases the CR by 1/2 per level and that NPC classes are always considered nonassociated levels.
Non-associated class levels only count for half until one of the NACLs equals the original HD. So a 4 HD ogre (base CR 3 IIRC) with 6 levels of Warrior is CR 7: base 3, +2 for the first four Warrior levels, and +2 more for the last two (after level = HD).

For creatures without racial HD, the relevant part is in the DMG, page 38: "For an NPC with an NPC class, determine her Challenge Rating as if she had a PC class with one less level."

[Winged One]

Still working, this one is complicated. Looks like I won't get it up by 12, but maybe by 12:30.
Take your time, take your time, it'll be worth it, as always. :)

[Baloo]

There was a French game that called them PMJ (personnages du maître du jeu) instead of PNJ (personnages non joueurs, the exact translation of NPC),
Most Swedish games use the term "Spelledarperson" or SLP, basically translated as "Game Master Character." The only exception I can think of was in a translation of Chill, where they instead used the term "Ickespelarperson" or ISP, which is the literal translation of NPC.

[GM_West]

Giant,

Go to sleep! I think the masses can wait until Wednesday for a special double-length comic! Take it easy on yourself and get some rest.

Jeez... I'm starting to sound like someone's mother... ;)

[ElfLad]

Push yourself, Giant. You can rest when the storyline's over. ;D

[theKOT]

Your webcomic zombies demand more strips, or we won't siege Washington DC like we planned!!!

With 8bit's current troubles, (http://nuklearpower.com/) it is clear that the world is conspiring to keep webcomics from being updated.

[The_Ducky_Ninja]

Yikes, no wonder 8-Bit isn't up today.

Speaking of 8-Bit, why doesn't Giant just call this a T-T-S comic instead of a M-W-F comic? This way instead of being a few minutes late, he posts it right at the beginning of the day. Not like I mind staying up til 1:00AM for a new comic or anything.

[tothecornfield]

I think that this should be reclassified as a weekly strip that is updated fridays. That way the comic will always be ahead of schedule and we get two bonus strips a week. Everybody wins.

[raven-gm]

the old lower the standards to raise quility argument? My teachers should learn that one....

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Still working, this one is complicated. Looks like I won't get it up by 12, but maybe by 12:30.

Um, this may be more rhetorical than actually quizzical but exactly what does it take, given some of the past examples of your work, to make you qualify something as "complicated...?"

You have now cursed me in such a manner that I shall have to stay up and find out...

Grrr! (but in a good way)

[Moechi_Vill]

Hey I just noticed while reading a link that V covers his eyes when Elan is prancing around naked.

[TinSoldier]

Sadly, the United States Marine Corps has deemed that I must remain out in the stumps for the time being. Hopefully that will change.

As for the complexity of the upcoming comic: Giant, take ALL the time you need, it will be worth it.Woohoo Twentynine Palms! Was there in 1989-1990.