Please Help Me Make A Paladin

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey all,

I want to make a drow paladin of Lolth. Right now I don't have any of the mechanics nailed down; I'm looking for help with the concept. To me, a character concept is a one sentence summary of a character, like "Yosemite Sam but with magic missile" for an evoker, for instance.

Backstory and build advice are welcome, but be advised of a few things:

1.) I am definitely going to play a drow and definitely going to play a paladin. Other suggestions will not be entertained.

2.) This will be a paladin of Lolth, using LudicSavant's excellent reimagining here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480130-Lolth-Lady-Luck

3.) I'd like to find a way to play a morally good character. Not necessary, but definitely worth bonus points.

Thanks!

[Anderlith]

Female Conquest Paladin with slight domm vibes, sort of a Joan of Arc meets Moses. She wants to lead her clan/brood/whatever the drow call it out of the caverns & into a place they can settle & grow

[CheddarChampion]

Start with 8/17/14/8/10/16
Get elven accuracy at level 4 (+1 Dex) or Revenant Blade (also +1 Dex) if possible.
Look for ways of not requiring attack rolls as sunlight sensitivity is real bad on martials when it applies. This will usually be in the form of spells.

Maybe consider a half elf (drow) paladin instead? On a quest to prove they can be just as good a follower of Lolth as any full drow?

[Nidgit]

Edgy Frank Sinatra and/or righteous Two Face.

Your character embraces chaos and the whims of fate, having a love/hate relationship with Lady Luck. My personal preference would be for an Ancients Paladin, in that you view surprise and change as forces for good and joy in the world; however, you could pretty easily go Vengeance to correct the slander against Lolth's name. Either way, you're a gambling addict, an incorrigible flirt, and a mercurial champion of Lolth. You often leave decisions up to chance but never cheat, even when you're desperate.

[Sparky McDibben]

Love these! I can easily imagine them as a Paladin of Vengeance, Conquest, or even Devotion. Ancients might be a bit of a stretch, but I think I could work it. Anybody have a way to make this concept work for Redemption paladin?

[Grognerd]

I'm thinking a Hector of Troy vibe.

Using the movie "Troy" rather than the actual Iliad (since it's easier :smallsmile:), Hector is really the only truly noble person in the movie. He knew Paris was wrong and disagreed with his father's decision, but felt his duty strongly enough to stand for Troy despite their shenanigans. I'm old school, so don't see the possibility of a Good paladin of Lolth, but could see a Neutral character that leans good, but is still trapped by duty into serving evil.

Since s/he is inherently reluctant to embrace the evil of Lolth, s/he tries to find ways other than slaughter to serve, hence the Oath of Redemption.

[Sparky McDibben]

I'm thinking a Hector of Troy vibe.

Using the movie "Troy" rather than the actual Iliad (since it's easier :smallsmile:), Hector is really the only truly noble person in the movie. He knew Paris was wrong and disagreed with his father's decision, but felt his duty strongly enough to stand for Troy despite their shenanigans. I'm old school, so don't see the possibility of a Good paladin of Lolth, but could see a Neutral character that leans good, but is still trapped by duty into serving evil.

Since s/he is inherently reluctant to embrace the evil of Lolth, s/he tries to find ways other than slaughter to serve, hence the Oath of Redemption.

You always come through for me, buddy. I loved Eric Bana in that role; it's the only one with any real pathos in the entire film.

[Petrocorus]

Hey all,
Backstory and build advice are welcome, but be advised of a few things:

1.) I am definitely going to play a drow and definitely going to play a paladin. Other suggestions will not be entertained.

You should totally play a mountain dwarf druid. :biggrin:



2.) This will be a paladin of Lolth, using LudicSavant's excellent reimagining here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480130-Lolth-Lady-Luck

This really strike me as a Paladin of Conquest.

Have you decide if you want a Strength buid or a Dex build?



3.) I'd like to find a way to play a morally good character. Not necessary, but definitely worth bonus points.

That would be quite complicated.
The "ambition" and "individualism" and the "do not protect the weaks" parts of Lolth's credo in LudicSavant's post do not fit a Good alignment. And the Drow society certainly don't push towards it.

This really sound as a LN or maybe CN. Depending on how you see the idea of lawfully abiding to an individualistic code.

[Sparky McDibben]

You should totally play a mountain dwarf druid. :biggrin:

I can't post images right now, but if I could I would totally do the line from Gladiator: "Are you not entertained!"



This really strike me as a Paladin of Conquest.

Have you decide if you want a Strength buid or a Dex build?

Dex-y goodness!



That would be quite complicated.
The "ambition" and "individualism" and the "do not protect the weaks" parts of Lolth's credo in LudicSavant's post do not fit a Good alignment. And the Drow society certainly don't push towards it.

This really sound as a LN or maybe CN. Depending on how you see the idea of lawfully abiding to an individualistic code.

You are completely correct! But sometimes, magic happens when you give people a challenge. So I like to throw down the gauntlet every now and again and see if anyone picks it up. Right now Grognerd's like 12/12. :)

[ravenkith]

*Knock* *Knock*

Excuse me, sir, have you had the chance to hear about the Warlock (Hexblade)?

I mean, if there was ever a goddess/back story combination that would lend itself very well to a paladin making deals with another entity to gain more power......

Also, not for nothing, but making the build CHARISMA dependent would seem to make a lot of sense, especially for a Lloth-following drow, as drow are often depicted as having great force of personality and being very charming.

Play the character as a seducer of fate (could work for either a male or a female character - as it would explain exactly HOW you become a 'favored of Lloth' as a paladin in the first place). Take/make choices that slide the odds of your survival and triumph in your favor whenever possible, or revolve around luck going your way, yet tie in to darkness and being a cunning shneaky planner type.

Being able to do the magic darkness + devil's sight combo would seem to fit under that umbrella as an obviously thematic ploy.

As far as feats go, Lucky seems like an EXTREMELY obvious and thematic feat choice, and the Elven Accuracy feat shenanigans would seem to fit in nicely as well.

If you ever opt to multiclass OUT of Paladin, a shadow sorceror would be pretty damn thematic as well.

I could easily see a simple 1 level dip into hexblade at level 2 for a Paladin 19/Hexblade 1 build, or if you don't mind straying a bit further afield, a three-level dip could pay off as well, in a number of potential ways (including getting advantage via adding a pact of the chain familiar) to tie in nicely with your possible Elven accuracy feat.

You also can get additional DPR via the Hex spell and the Hexblade's curse, which can help you go crit fishing against bigger bosses, enabling your big smites to matter more. I mean a crit-fisher build would seem to fit quite nicely under Lloth's banner, neh?

[Man_Over_Game]

2.) This will be a paladin of Lolth, using LudicSavant's excellent reimagining here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480130-Lolth-Lady-Luck

3.) I'd like to find a way to play a morally good character. Not necessary, but definitely worth bonus points.

These two things will be pretty hard to blend in. From LudicSavant's page:


True Strength is made. Weakness is only forgivable if you didn't have a choice.
Hates those who try to take power while trying to mitigate risk.
Believes in growth over safety or tradition.


However, the key pieces that would make someone be considered "Morally good" that I could garner from the page was:



[...]

Lolth's philosophy speaks volumes about self-realization and self-actualization, and of creating a stronger individual through ambition and trial.

The notion that the weak should not be protected has some limits or exceptions... the duties of an adult are different from the duties of a child, and the sacred duties of a mother are to make their children strong. Also, some trials are so mismatched that they will grant no strength, only destruction.

To a follower of Lolth, strength means more than simply muscle. It means strength of will, strength of character, and strength of mind, as well as the pursuit of grand dreams and ambitions. Cleverness and guile are respected even more than strength of arm.

[...]

- Do not coddle the weak, for to do so will only make them weaker, leading them (or their society) to greater harm in the long run. The true savior offers one the strength to save themselves, just as an ideal mother offers a child the strength to survive without her protection.

[...]

Out of all of this, my one-liner is:

Everyone's scolding mother, teaching harsh lessons to make the world a better place.

[Emongnome777]

My issue with the conquest oath is that it screams LN and Lloth is more CE. A fairly wide chasm to bridge.

Here’s my rough idea: Oath of Vengeance. You’re a normal Lloth-loving drow when some greater evil lays waste to your life / family / house. You become consumed with revenge against this greater evil, to the point of allying with good-aligned individuals to enact your vengeance. This lets you stay as a follower of Lloth as she would approve of your response to this catastrophic event.

You could even start evil and justify every good deed as furthering your need for vengeance. Maybe eventually move toward good-aligned, though when driven by revenge, it seems a stretch.

As for the details, I’m not so great at that part and others could do a much better job than me.

[ChildofLuthic]

So my vision for this character would be something like:

A drow paladin who sees drow society as imperfect, but beautiful, and will do anything to protect it against its enemies, both from the outside (eager adventurers who write off the entire civilization as "evil" and "chaotic") and from within (drow whose mad ambitions could end drow society as we know it, either by literally killing all the drow or by uniting all power under their control.) This paladin understands that constant backstabbing doesn't always make things easy, but it gives each drow a chance to rise to the top, and it gives them a reason to do well once they get there.

I would probably do this as an oath of the ancients, maybe changing the word "light" in the oath to, like, beauty or something. But I like the idea that even drow society has people that not only put up with it for power, but actively love it. I would go Dex based and focus on sword and shield, or maybe dual wielding with the defense fighting style or getting your DM to let you do dual wielding.

[ravenkith]

*Knock* *Knock*

Excuse me, sir, have you had the chance to hear about the Warlock (Hexblade)?

I mean, if there was ever a goddess/back story combination that would lend itself very well to a paladin making deals with another entity to gain more power......

Also, not for nothing, but making the build CHARISMA dependent would seem to make a lot of sense, especially for a Lloth-following drow, as drow are often depicted as having great force of personality and being very charming.

Play the character as a seducer of fate (could work for either a male or a female character - as it would explain exactly HOW you become a 'favored of Lloth' as a paladin in the first place). Take/make choices that slide the odds of your survival and triumph in your favor whenever possible, or revolve around luck going your way, yet tie in to darkness and being a cunning shneaky planner type.

Being able to do the magic darkness + devil's sight combo would seem to fit under that umbrella as an obviously thematic ploy.

As far as feats go, Lucky seems like an EXTREMELY obvious and thematic feat choice, and the Elven Accuracy feat shenanigans would seem to fit in nicely as well.

If you ever opt to multiclass OUT of Paladin, a shadow sorceror would be pretty damn thematic as well.

I could easily see a simple 1 level dip into hexblade at level 2 for a Paladin 19/Hexblade 1 build, or if you don't mind straying a bit further afield, a three-level dip could pay off as well, in a number of potential ways (including getting advantage via adding a pact of the chain familiar) to tie in nicely with your possible Elven accuracy feat.

You also can get additional DPR via the Hex spell and the Hexblade's curse, which can help you go crit fishing against bigger bosses, enabling your big smites to matter more. I mean a crit-fisher build would seem to fit quite nicely under Lloth's banner, neh?

To expand on my initial post, here's a build progression stub:

STR 13 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 16
One option is to go with a heavy weapon (Great sword or Maul) take the thematic gambler background (deception, insight, never tell me the odds, Cards) or pick something you'd rather have, and progress in the following fashion:
Paladin (Ancients) 1 (All armor, all weapon types, Lay on Hands, Persuasion, Religion)
Warlock (Hexblade) 1 (CHA as main stat, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, HEX, HEXBLADE'S CURSE, SHIELD)
Warlock 2 Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast, Faerie Fire (Racial)
Paladin 2 GWF, Smite,
Paladin 3 Darkness (racial), Nature's Wrath (Could reflavor as tough webbing if DM is cool w/ it)
Paladin 4 Elven Accuracy - Pick Charisma (BUILD FULLY ONLINE - EVERYTHING AFTER THIS IS GRAVY)
Paladin 5 Extra Attack
Paladin 6 CHA to all saves
Paladin 7 Magic Resistance vs all spells (advantage on saving throws v Spells)
Paladin 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 3 Pact of the Chain - Imp Familiar says WHAT!
Warlock 4 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 5 Invocation (One With Shadows)
Warlock 6 Accursed Specter
Warlock 7 Invocation (Gift of the Ever Living Ones)
Warlock 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky/Other potential Feat

Basically, you have a variety of ways of getting advantage, you're darkness and luck themed to the hilt, and you get some arguably SWEET capstones in gift of the ever living ones, which maxes your HP recovery dice as long as your familiar is around, and a 5th ASI.

You will end up with 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3rd and 2 4th level spell slots, with the 4th level slots regenerating on a short rest.

You get two attacks, plus have a number of options of what to do with our bonus actions/reactions, and have the ability to 'modify' attack rolls, saves, ability checks all within the rules. It's such a neat concept, I might even play it, although you WILL need some way to mitigate sunlight sensitivity.

Arguably a half drow might be a better choice, if you don't want to mess with the sensitivity, and they also get +2 cha instead of just +1, but YMMV

[Petrocorus]

I can't post images right now, but if I could I would totally do the line from Gladiator: "Are you not entertained!"

Oh you mean this:
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0d/0dbf879e3ed5e58e932cf57fbde15db2c780eeaa6dfa8cc7e0 764f97a4671573.jpg

Why? Are you not entertained?



Dex-y goodness!

Well, you can go:

10/16/14/8/10/16
Background: Criminal
Skills: Perception, Intimidation, Persuasion, Stealth, Deception,

Level 2: Defense FS, because Dueling is less relevant when you smite. And as a Dex build, your AC may be lacking.
Level 3: Paladin of Conquest.
Level 4: +2 Dex or Warcaster. (Elven Accuracy is very good if you have a reliable source of advantage)

Warcaster will be necessary at some point.
Res: Con may be good too. If you plan to take it, start with Con 13 and get Str 12 or Int 10.
What level do you start at?
Do you play in FR or some other setting?

[Sparky McDibben]

Out of all of this, my one-liner is:

Everyone's scolding mother, teaching harsh lessons to make the world a better place.


The "ambition" and "individualism" and the "do not protect the weaks" parts of Lolth's credo in LudicSavant's post do not fit a Good alignment. And the Drow society certainly don't push towards it.

This really sound as a LN or maybe CN. Depending on how you see the idea of lawfully abiding to an individualistic code.


I'm thinking a Hector of Troy vibe. [sic] I'm old school, so don't see the possibility of a Good paladin of Lolth, but could see a Neutral character that leans good, but is still trapped by duty into serving evil.

Since s/he is inherently reluctant to embrace the evil of Lolth, s/he tries to find ways other than slaughter to serve, hence the Oath of Redemption.


Either way, you're a gambling addict, an incorrigible flirt, and a mercurial champion of Lolth. You often leave decisions up to chance but never cheat, even when you're desperate.

YES! I love this site!

OK, y'all, let's put this all together!

First of all, all the art says the paladins of Lolth are female, so my inner contrarian implores me to play a male drow. If he's a male drow who wants to serve Lolth, he's probably got some serious maternal abandonment issues, so almost certainly an orphan. So who in drow society would take in an orphan? Well, lots of people, but most of them aren't fans of Lolth, so we can assume he was raised by priestesses of Lolth, probably because they wanted a servant/whipping boy. So let's say he doesn't just want to serve Lolth, he's a serious Lolth fanboy. Like, Lolth considers filing a restraining order with this dude. So he had to beg to be allowed to be a paladin, not because he wants power, but because he wants to safeguard his people.

What does he want? Well, if he's a paladin of Lolth, he wants to encourage the drow to become stronger. The best way to do that, according to Lolth, is to encourage conflict and let the strongest drow rise to power! But this guy doesn't want power; he wants stronger drow, and the drow can't become stronger if their convoluted internecine strife is constantly interrupted by mind flayer raids. So this guy takes it upon himself to keep his city safe from external threats. But when facing drow who have turned their back on Lolth? He doesn't kill them, even if given a direct order by a priestess. Instead, he tries to convert them back to Lolth's worship through sweet reason and debate. Every drow he brings back is another drow who can make the entire race stronger. Lolth still grants his prayers, so while the priestesses keep an eye on him, they haven't acted against him.

Without guidance, he'll often turn to random chance, trusting in Lolth guide him where he's needed most. So far this has actually worked.

But, because he's also a massive Lolth fanboy, he tries to promote Lolth's worship among other races, typically in her maternal- or luck-based aspects. He hasn't made any progress yet, but it's a goal of his. (This is to give him a reason to leave and adventure outside the city, since we don't anticipate staying in the Underdark forever).

Personality Traits: Very deferential to female authority, to the point he will support a woman's (especially a priestess') suggestion over his own instincts, no matter how wrong they may be.
Ideals: Strives to improve those around him, and himself, but always by testing them, throwing them against threats that seem insurmountable.
Bonds: President of the Lolth fanclub.
Flaws: Trusts the matriarchy blindly (with one exception) since they speak for Lolth.

Mechanics:
Campaign starts at level 9, rolled 4d6 (drop the lowest) for stats; after racial bonuses came up with:

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 18 (+4) CON: 11 (+/-0) INT: 11 (+/-0) WIS: 13 (+1) CHA: 18 (+4)

Drow Paladin (Oath of Redemption) 9

AC: 19 (14 +2 Dex from elven chain; +3 from +1 shield), 85 hp

Feats: Tough (level 4), Elven Accuracy (Cha) (level 8)

Equipment: (2 uncommon, 1 rare item) +1 whip, +1 shield, elven chain.

Personal Commentary: Is this guy a good character? Well, he certainly sees himself that way, although spreading the worship of the Demon Queen of Spiders could be an evil act. He denounces slavery, protects his people, and tries very, very hard to do the right thing as he sees it. My concept for this guy is "Cross up between Captain America and Oral Roberts."

[Petrocorus]

He doesn't kill them, even if given a direct order by a priestess.
....
Personality Traits: Very deferential to female authority, to the point he will support a woman's (especially a priestess') suggestion over his own instincts, no matter how wrong they may be.

Isn't there an inconsistency?



But, because he's also a massive Lolth fanboy...

Who apparently disagree with several tenants of Lolth's creed.



STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 18 (+4) CON: 11 (+/-0) INT: 11 (+/-0) WIS: 13 (+1) CHA: 18 (+4)

Good for you.



Feats: Tough (level 4), Elven Accuracy (Cha) (level 8)

Res: Con will be better than Tough given your stat. Tough gives +18 HP. Res: Con will give +9 HP in addition of the proficiency.



Equipment: (2 uncommon, 1 rare item) +1 whip, +1 shield, elven chain.

What does that Elven Chain do for you? You already have the proficiency and a normal breastplate gives the same AC.
Can you get a +1 breastplate? Or a Ring of protection?

[Sparky McDibben]

Isn't there an inconsistency?

Not to him. He thinks the priestesses might be wrong in this matter, and he wants to try something different.



Who apparently disagree with several tenants of Lolth's creed.

Down with the orthodoxy, bab


Good for you.

Thanks; Lolth was with me.


Res: Con will be better than Tough given your stat. Tough gives +18 HP. Res: Con will give +9 HP in addition of the proficiency.

Yes, but Tough fit the character better.


What does that Elven Chain do for you? You already have the proficiency and a normal breastplate gives the same AC.
Can you get a +1 breastplate? Or a Ring of protection?

Elven chain is really cool. That's all. I'm not trying to optimize the character; I'm trying to build a game-functional version of a person living in my head.

[barakas]

To me, the most fun way to play this would be to flip it on it's head and play against the tenants (brilliantly) outlined by LudicSavant:

Constantly living in his mother's shadow (figuratively and literally, because there's a statue of his mother in his hometown, visible from everywhere), *your PC* struggles to make a name for himself as a meaningful disciple of Lolth. "Oh, aren't you *mother's name*'s kid? She has done such wonderful things for Lolth." Failure to launch and constantly reminded of it.