Max human non epic intelligence

[Segev]

You were born with a 20 intelligence, as a Pathfinder human. You went into wizardry, and have achieved 20th level. But you’re not epic, and there’s no sign that that’s a possibility.

You put all 5 level up bonuses into int. You wished for +5 int. You have a +6 headband of intellect. You’re at 36 int!

Can you go higher without ceasing to be human or tapping the epic level handbook?

[False God]

It's not permanent but you can Fox's Cunning yourself for another +4.

[Albions_Angel]

I thought +6 items were epic? Maybe I am wrong.

But there are at least the tomes that give permanent stat increases. You can probably also get divine buffs which might stack. And there is always taking leadership and grabbing a Marshal companion to give you a buff to your int of their cha bonus...

[Biggus]

Well, you can wait till you reach 70 years old for +3...

Apart from that, there are only short-term bonuses AFAIK. Nectrotic Empowerment (LM) gives you a further +2 for 1rd/level, as does Greater Visage of the Deity (SpC) for good characters or +4 for evil ones. It's personal only so you'd need to UMD it. If the feat Ability Enhancer applies to scrolls that's another +2.

There's a couple of drugs, Luhix and Mushroom Powder which give a +2 Alchemical bonus in the BoVD, and a disease from the same book whose name escapes me right now, which give further bonuses. I think that's it barring epic and artifacts for a straight Wizard (certain classes like Human Paragon give further bonuses).

Edit: the disease is called Warp Touch and has a 2% chance to give a +4 bonus.

[Kaleph]

Some options:

- DMG2, unique abilities (prodigy): +2 unnamed (but you get +1 ML)
- UA, human paragon: +2 unnamed (but you lose 1 CL)
- PHB, getting old: +3 unnamed

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder? In 3.5 you can get a Tome of Clear Thought, and then there's the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176). Note that you can get a +10 untyped bonus by becoming a horse and wearing horseshoes of flame (Savage species), and there are various suboptimal PrCs that allow permanent Int increases.

[Firest Kathon]

It's not permanent but you can Fox's Cunning yourself for another +4.

Both the Headband of Vast Intelligence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence/) and Fox's Cunning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fox-s-cunning/) are enhancemenet bonuses, and as such du not stack.

[Zombulian]

Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder? In 3.5 you can get a Tome of Clear Thought, and then there's the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176). Note that you can get a +10 untyped bonus by becoming a horse and wearing horseshoes of flame (Savage species), and there are various suboptimal PrCs that allow permanent Int increases.

Worth noting that you can UMD the horseshoes if you don’t want to be Bad Horse(tm) all the time.

[Segev]

First off, thanks for the feedback and replies!

Secondly, I'm mostly looking for permanent boosts, but temporary ones are still interesting to note.

Thirdly, while I'll address this a few times in my direct replies, the +6 item is already giving enhancement bonuses, and the wished-for stats are inherent (which is what Tomes give, too, as the Tomes are based on wish).


It's not permanent but you can Fox's Cunning yourself for another +4.Enhancement bonus; doesn't stack with the +6 headband.


I thought +6 items were epic? Maybe I am wrong.

But there are at least the tomes that give permanent stat increases. You can probably also get divine buffs which might stack. And there is always taking leadership and grabbing a Marshal companion to give you a buff to your int of their cha bonus...+6 enhancement-to-stat items are 36,000 gp, and are the highest you can go non-epic.

What does the Marshal's buff count as? If it's enhancement or inherent, it's already covered. If it's morale, that's a possibility....


Well, you can wait till you reach 70 years old for +3...

Apart from that, there are only short-term bonuses AFAIK. Nectrotic Empowerment (LM) gives you a further +2 for 1rd/level, as does Greater Visage of the Deity (SpC) for good characters or +4 for evil ones. It's personal only so you'd need to UMD it. If the feat Ability Enhancer applies to scrolls that's another +2.

There's a couple of drugs, Luhix and Mushroom Powder which give a +2 Alchemical bonus in the BoVD, and a disease from the same book whose name escapes me right now, which give further bonuses. I think that's it barring epic and artifacts for a straight Wizard (certain classes like Human Paragon give further bonuses).

Edit: the disease is called Warp Touch and has a 2% chance to give a +4 bonus.Hm, necrotic empowerment does technically work, by overlaying a +8 enhancement over the +6 of the headband for a net +2, I suppose. I'd rather not resort to UMD on a wizard build, as that's getting...janky. It's probably doable, but the costs and devotion to eking out the last bit for a temporary bonus is probably too much of a diminishing return.

Drugs are meh options due to being both temporary AND having drawbacks, but thanks for pointing them out! I wouldn't even have thought of it.


Some options:

- DMG2, unique abilities (prodigy): +2 unnamed (but you get +1 ML)
- UA, human paragon: +2 unnamed (but you lose 1 CL)
- PHB, getting old: +3 unnamedBeing old is actually pretty viable, especially with the possibility of youth potions. Human Paragon...you're basically trading one CL for it. A little painful, but not unbearable. That has possibilities.

How do you get "Prodigy," per the rules? Is it bought like a magic item? Feat? Class feature? Is it just something you beg the DM for?


Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder? In 3.5 you can get a Tome of Clear Thought, and then there's the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176). Note that you can get a +10 untyped bonus by becoming a horse and wearing horseshoes of flame (Savage species), and there are various suboptimal PrCs that allow permanent Int increases.Becoming a horse means not being human, so that's right out. The Tome is already covered by the +5 from wishes (they're both Inherent bonuses; the Tome is based on wish).

Now to go look at that handbook! Thanks!

Huh, forgot to post this. Well, back now to ocmment on the handbook, and transfusion (a dragon magazine spell) looks moderately okay, though it's a short buff for its cost. I'm only guessing at it being 1d6+1/4 levels, of which you get half the damage you do to somebody else. So a level 20 wizard casting it could get between 3 and 5 untyped bonus to int for 6 to 11 damage to a victim's int. Though as an untyped bonus, that's pretty hefty, since it would stack. But it's also a 5th level spell, and the bonus only lasts an hour, so you can't even fire-and-forget in the morning. Definitely a "prep for a specific task" type thing rather than a daily activity thing.

Using planar binding on a Fiend of Possession and a Fiend of Corruption to compel them to give you +3 "fiends favor" bonus (not sure if that's a type or not, will have to look it up tonight) and a +4 profane bonus is nice, but you'd better have good mental protections. (Protection from evil is probably sufficient, but mind blank might be preferable.)

The "Warp Touch" disease from the BoVD requires more investigation. It's a deformity that can give +4 to Int, apparently, but I don't know the full details so can't be sure how usable it really is. As a deformity-type bonus (if I am reading the handbook right, and it's correct), it'd definitey stack with the others already on tap.

Also will need to look up Faustian Pacts in the Fiendish Codex II; it's not got a type listed for that +1, and may be worth researching the costs.

[Ruethgar]

Party up with a Druid to make a spell trap of Aspect of the Wolf and Intensify Awaken so you’re starting off at 36. You probably can’t do that by level 3 so you might miss out on a few of the stat boosts from leveling, but it’s a far cry better than using 20 for a base.

[Segev]

Party up with a Druid to make a spell trap of Aspect of the Wolf and Intensify Awaken so you’re starting off at 36. You probably can’t do that by level 3 so you might miss out on a few of the stat boosts from leveling, but it’s a far cry better than using 20 for a base.

Isn't Intensify an Epic metamagic?

[tyckspoon]

Enhancement bonus; doesn't stack with the +6 headband.


Speaking of.. Be an Incantatrix. Take Leadership. Get an Artificer cohort. They have a level 4 infusion that allows them to change the bonus type of an item. Apply it to several +intellect items, so you have a Headband of Intellect +6 Enhancement, one of Luck, one of Competence, etc (you probably also want to use the Magic Item Compendium rules for combining common magic effects to move the slots around on these, so you get a Cloak of Resistance/+Intelligence and so on.) Use Metamagic Effect to render these Persistent. Should get up to like 50+ that way. Do it with Dex as well so you can dodge the books your DM will throw at you.

[Telonius]

Using planar binding on a Fiend of Possession and a Fiend of Corruption to compel them to give you +3 "fiends favor" bonus (not sure if that's a type or not, will have to look it up tonight) and a +4 profane bonus is nice, but you'd better have good mental protections. (Protection from evil is probably sufficient, but mind blank might be preferable.)

Fiend's Favor (from Fiend of Corruption) is a boost with an untyped bonus, and the description specifically calls it out for stacking with all other bonuses. Fiend of Possession gets the "Ally or Enemy" ability. That only works on a creature that the Fiend is possessing, and gives a +4 Profane bonus to any ability score. So unfortunately you wouldn't be able to have Magic Circle (or anything else like that) up. If you want to have the bonus, the fiend has to possess you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

UMD the horseshoes of flame to count as a horse for the purposes of activating them and utilizing their effects. (Put the effects on a pair of boots comboed with some gloves via the MIC rules.)

You could also research 3.5's polymorph any object to gain the racial bonuses for any creature you turn into. I've had DMs that (very slightly) curbed polymorph abuse to grant martial types additional use by saying that polymorph effects don't default to a flat physical (or in the case of PAO, mental) score, but instead replace your racial bonuses and penalties with those of the form you take. So if you start with a roll of 18 as a human and PAO yourself into a sarrukh, you become a sarrukh with a base 18 instead of 10, giving you a 38 Int instead of 30 (which essentially rolled a 10). Feel free to combine this with the awaken spell and Intensify Spell. And you can even keep your own body if you mind-swap with another creature before PAO'ing yourself and then swapping back.

Alternatively, since psionics doesn't have a maximum number of times you can apply a given metapsionic feat aside from the standard pp cap and psionic focus (of which you have a limited number, generally), removing one or both of those limiters (via, say, Metapower and the Dominant Ideal ACF) and taking awaken as a psionic power (through a friend with the Convert Spell-to-Power ACF and adding it to one of your mantles) would allow you to Empower the awaken spell quite a number of times.

You could always combine those, if you wanted.

And as mentioned, the Ability Enhancer feat would increase those, as well, and multiple uses when applied to different spells actually stack.

Fell Energy Spell would grant additional bonuses if you count as undead (or are undead), either through a magical effect or your normal creature type.

And don't forget, templates are a thing.

[Ruethgar]

Isn't Intensify an Epic metamagic?

Yeah, but a level 20 Kobold Druid can get it. If you abuse bloodlines you can lower that to ECL 7 Kobold sorcerer to be able to Intensify Awaken. Though you would have to, at that point, lower the metamagic cost significantly which may take more levels. Make it ritually associated with Evil for free feats, worship the mother of monsters for more, chaos shuffle your kobold feats away to snag all the feats you need to lower the level.

[bean illus]

VoP is a +8 ...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

VoP is a +8 ...And like -11 (minimum; significantly more if you actually put effort in) for not having items.

[Ruethgar]

Thirdly, while I'll address this a few times in my direct replies, the +6 item is already giving enhancement bonuses, and the wished-for stats are inherent (which is what Tomes give, too, as the Tomes are based on wish).

Enhancement bonus; doesn't stack with the +6 headband.

I’m not really familiar with Artificers, but don’t they have an ability to swap the bonus type for items like these to let you stack them?

[bean illus]

And like -11 (minimum; significantly more if you actually put effort in) for not having items.
Of course ...

[AvatarVecna]

Acting on the assumption that non-epic isn't viable for you personally, and acting on the assumption that 3.5 material is allowed (you state PF in the first post, but seem to be accepting 3.5 material?), the answer is of course that Hive Minds do it better.


1) Use gate instead of Planar whatever; this is a bit more expensive, but has deal-making built in and gives a much higher HD limit. Use *mumble mumble Sadism shenanigans mumble mumble* to get an arbitrarily-high Knowledge (The Planes) check to spontaneously know the specific demon you're looking for. What you want is a demon who is using an array instead of straight 10s/11s (probably elite array, so +4 to whatever their normal stat was there) who has advanced their HD into epic as far as they can, using all attribute bumps and epic feats to boost the same stat. Get some CL-boosting shenanigans and you can summon some awfully-advanced demons...just as a Core example, there are probably elite 60 HD Balors somewhere out there in the multiverse that have Str 63, Dex 53, Con 59, Int 52, Wis 52, or Cha 54. Use super-knowledge to know the names of each of those 6 Balor, find a way to get your Gate to CL 30, and you're in the clear.

...

3) With a similar method to trick 1, Gate in and utterly control a specific Lilitu who's gone down the "Cleric 7/Vermin Lord 10" path. Have your new slave hivemind a Hoard Scarab Swarm; the Lilitu won't benefit from the hivemind's enhanced Intelligence directly, but the Lilitu has 31 HD and just gained 3038 bonus feats; have her spend feats such that all her attributes are now 192. Have the hivemind take Arcane Thesis (Extract Gift) and get to work for 6 hours performing the rituals (bonus points: hiveminds don't pay material components, and the XP component is directly proportional to the material component required). Now you've got a handy-dandy +46 enhancement to all your attributes. Either make long-term deals with your new minions, or off them so you don't have to worry about competing with an Int 200 spellcasting swarm with a grudge.

That's more or less the trick here: take advantage of the infinitely-varied nature of the abyss/demons, fireball a chicken coop to power your Sadism spell, and make a like +1000 knowledge check or whatever to find the one super-advanced demon that happens to have taken the class levels for the task at hand. The demon gets an enormous pile of feats from hivemind shenanigans and is high enough level that she can spend them on Great Intelligence. Mind you, the single Hoard Scarab Swarm "only" has CL 184 to cast that spell, so you can't get more than +46 enhancement to any individual score...unless, when you Gate in the Lilitu, you had more than one swarm waiting for her to Hivemind with. Which hey, if you're a nigh-epic wizard, why not have a whole bunch of em, right? The more you gather, the higher the CL gets pumped, the more of a bonus you can get. If you go that route, then every Swarm you bring increases the Lilitu's Int mod by 5000 and increases the Hivemind's CL by 200, so there's not really a point where bringing more swarms can't help, but there's maybe a limit on how many swarms you can manage to keep corraled while you're gating in the Lilitu. Let's arbitrarily say 20 swarms, for CL 3982. Give em that Arcane Thesis for another +2, and you can be looking at a +996 to Int.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I’m not really familiar with Artificers, but don’t they have an ability to swap the bonus type for items like these to let you stack them?It's an infusion (their version of a spell).


Item Alteration: Item that provides a certain type of bonus provides a different type of bonus to the same value or roll.

[Segev]

I'd specified PF because that gives humans a +2 to a stat of their choice, enabling starting at 20. I'm open to PF or 3.5, but not to epic stuff.

I'm actually trying to consider what the "walking around" intelligence of a hypothetical level 20 wizard who has interests outside of "max out my int" but who is still wanting to at least not be slacking in that department.

The hive mind, the fiend of corruption (and possibly possession; I think they can give the bonus to somebody wielding an item they're possessing), the artificer cohort... they're promising, but they definitely fall into a category of "depending on others to keep your brains up." While minionmancy is definitely a thing, one must be careful what one considers the walking around perk.

The hive mind trick, though, if I read it right, is reliant on a single spell cast at enormous CL, which might do it. Definitely on the cheesy side, but we're shopping the cheese section of the supermarket, at least, once we get beyond the "basics" of inherent and enhancement bonuses.

[tyckspoon]

I'd specified PF because that gives humans a +2 to a stat of their choice, enabling starting at 20. I'm open to PF or 3.5, but not to epic stuff.

I'm actually trying to consider what the "walking around" intelligence of a hypothetical level 20 wizard who has interests outside of "max out my int" but who is still wanting to at least not be slacking in that department.


Hmm. See if you can sell being able to Shapechange into a Paragon Human? Literally 'just you, but better.'

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd specified PF because that gives humans a +2 to a stat of their choice, enabling starting at 20. I'm open to PF or 3.5, but not to epic stuff.

I'm actually trying to consider what the "walking around" intelligence of a hypothetical level 20 wizard who has interests outside of "max out my int" but who is still wanting to at least not be slacking in that department.

The hive mind, the fiend of corruption (and possibly possession; I think they can give the bonus to somebody wielding an item they're possessing), the artificer cohort... they're promising, but they definitely fall into a category of "depending on others to keep your brains up." While minionmancy is definitely a thing, one must be careful what one considers the walking around perk.

The hive mind trick, though, if I read it right, is reliant on a single spell cast at enormous CL, which might do it. Definitely on the cheesy side, but we're shopping the cheese section of the supermarket, at least, once we get beyond the "basics" of inherent and enhancement bonuses.Do note that the ardent I mentioned could also be a cohort, of a sort. He'd be the one casting the multi-Empowered awaken spell on you (rather than on himself, though he could do that, too).

[Ruethgar]

If you're sticking with PF, it is unclear weather Azlanti only get their +2 to all stats, or if that's in addition to the +2 to any stat. If it's both, that's two more on the base if you aren't trading out your base int somehow(such as the aforementioned awaken).

[AvatarVecna]

Well, it probably involves at least Extract Gift from the Hivemind, and you need to Gate in an epic Fiend at some point, so yeah minimum is two high CL spells, onoy one of which you personally cast.

[Khosan]

If we're going just straight Int stacking, Wizard's not the way to go. Go Alchemist, grab the Cognatogen line of discoveries and ultimately Greater Cognatogen for a +6 Alchemical bonus to Int and the Awakened Intellect grand discovery at level 20 for another permanent untyped +2. That gets you up to 44.

[Segev]

If we're going just straight Int stacking, Wizard's not the way to go. Go Alchemist, grab the Cognatogen line of discoveries and ultimately Greater Cognatogen for a +6 Alchemical bonus to Int and the Awakened Intellect grand discovery at level 20 for another permanent untyped +2. That gets you up to 44.

While I'm interested in general solutions, and this one's interesting, I am looking not at a pure mental exercise of 'max out int,' but rather trying to figure out what the highest reasonable int a particular character would have.

This character is, if not a human wizard 20, at least a human wizard X/something that takes very little CL away from Wizard Y. e.g. human paragon is a "maybe."

It's less about building for maximum int, and more about asking, "What would this wizard be able to get himself up to before he figured it was good enough compared to the increasing costs and diminishing returns?" 36 is the obvious minimum. 39, since he IS very old. Binding a demon to give him another +3 or +4 (or both) is feasible, but something to be done cautiously. Managing to find an artificer minion to keep a cloak of intellect +6 giving a dodge bonus rather than an enhancement bonus is pushing it due to the difficulty of FINDING an artificer and the cost of keeping one around purely for that purpose. He probably would have better things to set such a minion on than maintaining an array of +6 int items as different bonuses. The Awakening stunt is problematic because it requires trusting somebody else with the sanctity of his own mind when he risks feebleminding himself with the animal transformation, and the questionable utility of retaining the boosted intelligence when turning back to human.

They're all neat ideas, and I'm not rejecting them entirely as invalid, but some are better than others when it comes to this particular character. Who IS a human wizard 20(ish) and is not likely to be devoting class levels to naught but boosting int.

[AvatarVecna]

If we're going just straight Int stacking, Wizard's not the way to go. Go Alchemist, grab the Cognatogen line of discoveries and ultimately Greater Cognatogen for a +6 Alchemical bonus to Int and the Awakened Intellect grand discovery at level 20 for another permanent untyped +2. That gets you up to 44.

This is viable if the exercise is "how high can you get perma-Int" rather than "how high can a wizard 20 get perma-Int". However...


I'm actually trying to consider what the "walking around" intelligence of a hypothetical level 20 wizard who has interests outside of "max out my int" but who is still wanting to at least not be slacking in that department.

[False God]

Both the Headband of Vast Intelligence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence/) and Fox's Cunning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fox-s-cunning/) are enhancemenet bonuses, and as such du not stack.

Ah! I did not read the item description and assumed it was a different sort of bonus. alas.

[Khosan]

Well, best you could do there is another +2 from just base Cognatogen then, just for a minute per day, but it's something. There's the Demoniac (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/demoniac/) prestige class, which might be more applicable? Energumen gets you a +6 profane bonus to a stat of your choice for a few rounds at a time. You lose 1 CL for it and once the duration of the Energumen ends, you're confused for the same duration.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm. See if you can sell being able to Shapechange into a Paragon Human? Literally 'just you, but better.'

Nope. Everything down the line from alter self inherits the "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype," line. An argument -might- be made for PAO but it'd be a stretch.

[Segev]

Arguably, becoming a paragon [your race] would be properly done by designing an Epic Spell.

[Ruethgar]

Savage Species has the ability for Wish to apply templates, AFB, but as I recall the caster level requirements for doing that with Paragon would pretty much mean you have to be a Red Wizard or Rashamen Witch for Circle Magic.

[Battleship789]

Savage Species has the ability for Wish to apply templates, AFB, but as I recall the caster level requirements for doing that with Paragon would pretty much mean you have to be a Red Wizard or Rashamen Witch for Circle Magic.

Halruaan Elder also has Circle Magic for the sake of completeness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be truly complete on circle magic, you gotta mention a cleric of Galaedros with the circle magic feat from Ghostwalk. Get heretic of the faith and the envy domain and you get one that can cast wish and make you a paragon.

Honestly makes an intereting side-quest, really. Find the heretical cleric of this obscure faith and convince him to perform one of the costliest and most difficult of all rites to make you a perfect exemplar of your race rather than just melt your face for knowing too much.

[rel]

If you're using pathfinder then a succubus can grant you a +2 to any stat via the profane gift ability.

[Ruethgar]

The DM may, for instance, require the spellcaster to make a Spellcraft check. For every point by which the check result exceeds 20, the transforming character gains a 5% chance to have the goal creature's abilities. The transforming character must roll for each ability.

So it was Spellcraft, not Caster Level, worlds easier to do but kinda sad that it wouldn't be this epic quest for Circle magic. Also much more reasonable for a casual wizard to go for as the OP wanted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So it was Spellcraft, not Caster Level, worlds easier to do but kinda sad that it wouldn't be this epic quest for Circle magic. Also much more reasonable for a casual wizard to go for as the OP wanted.

Quest's not off completely. The header for the rituals says that the ritualist and the character being changed can't be the same creature.

But yeah, no need for circle magic unless you're trying to become something epic and don't want to take the risk associated with the wish ritual.

[Maat Mons]

Dragon Magazine actually had a 3.5 Human variant with +2 to any one ability score. So you don't necessarily need Pathfinder.

[Eldest]

For Pathfinder, the arcane discovery Idealize (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/idealize-su/) makes Fox's Cunning net a +8 and improving any other transmutation spell we're using, bringing it above the +6 item. None of the other arcane discoveries had anything useful, sadly.

[magic9mushroom]

The "Warp Touch" disease from the BoVD requires more investigation. It's a deformity that can give +4 to Int, apparently, but I don't know the full details so can't be sure how usable it really is. As a deformity-type bonus (if I am reading the handbook right, and it's correct), it'd definitey stack with the others already on tap.

Basically, it's this Chaotic magic disease with highly-random and permanent effects. Here's the list on d%.

01–10 Body turns to formless jelly; character dies.
11–15 One arm becomes useless; 1d6 Str, Con, and Dex drain.
16–20 One leg becomes useless; 1d6 Str, Con, and Dex drain.
21–23 Eyes fall out; permanent blindness.
24–28 Huge lump grows on head; 1d6 Int and Wis drain.
29–32 Fingers twist into tangles; 1d8 Dex drain.
33–36 Become very thin; 1d6 Str and Con drain.
37–38 Mouth seals forever; cannot speak.
39–40 Legs become snake tails; speed reduced by half.
41–42 Skin turns random color.
43–44 Eyes turn random color.
45–46 Hair turns random color.
47–48 Tongue grows very long.
49–50 Lose all hair.
51–52 Skin forms blotches of different colors.
53–54 Body covered with tufts of hair.
55–56 Grow vestigial wings.
57–58 Grow extra, useless arm.
59–60 Grow vestigial tail.
61–62 Skin withers.
63–64 Back curves, grows hump.
65–66 Arms become tentacles; character cannot hold objects, but gains improved grab.
67–68 Grow extra eye; +2 deformity bonus on Spot checks.
69–70 Legs grow more muscular; speed increases by +10 ft.
71–72 Head swells; +4 deformity bonus to Int.
73–74 Grow claws that deal 1d6 points of damage.
75–76 Grow a very wide mouth; bite deals 1d6 points of damage.
77–78 Grow snakelike arm; attacks of its own accord as Medium-size viper.
79–80 Grow horns; gore attack deals 2d4 points of damage.
81–82 Grow thick skin; +2 natural armor bonus.
83–84 Grow scales; +3 natural armor bonus.
85–86 Grow longer legs; +2 deformity bonus to Dex.
87–88 Arms grow freakishly muscular; +2 deformity bonus to Str.
89–90 Become freakishly stout; +2 deformity bonus to Con.
91 Grow working wings; fly 30 ft. (clumsy).
92 Petrifying eyes; gain gaze attack as medusa.
93 Form oozing pustules; uncontrollable poison touch; Fort DC 15; initial damage 1 Int, secondary damage 1d6 Int.
94 Form steaming pustules; uncontrollable stench in a 5-foot radius centered on victim; make Fort save (DC 15) or take –2 morale penalty on attacks, saves, and checks for 10 rounds.
95–100 Roll twice.

Let's just say that using Warp Touch without some way to hack several rerolls is a very, very stupid idea.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Basically, it's this Chaotic magic disease with highly-random and permanent effects.

-snip-

Let's just say that using Warp Touch without some way to hack several rerolls is a very, very stupid idea.

If you're willing to sac' another level, there's alway cancer mage 1 to allow you to nab all of the positives and ignore all the negatives.

[magic9mushroom]

If you're willing to sac' another level, there's alway cancer mage 1 to allow you to nab all of the positives and ignore all the negatives.

Apart from looking like a shoggoth, of course. It explicitly doesn't do anything about the visual manifestations.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're willing to sac' another level, there's alway cancer mage 1 to allow you to nab all of the positives and ignore all the negatives.A "sac" is a pouch-like body part.

Which is not appropriate for this conversation.

You're looking for the word "sack."

[Zerathize]

Well, if you are doing Pathfinder. There is an alternative capstone Perfect Body, Flawless Mind (Ex). 8 points to put into whatever ability(ies) you want.

Also there is the arcane discovery you can get for fox's conning

Idealize (Su) (Champions of Balance pg. 21): In your quest for self-perfection, you have discovered a way to further enhance yourself and others. When a transmutation spell you cast grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score, that bonus increases by 2. At 20th level, the bonus increases by 4. You must be at least a 10th-level wizard to select this discovery....

still only a 2 point increase for a feat.

[RatElemental]

A "sac" is a pouch-like body part.

Which is not appropriate for this conversation.

You're looking for the word "sack."

Sac is often used as shorthand for "sacrifice"

[Kelb_Panthera]

A "sac" is a pouch-like body part.

Which is not appropriate for this conversation.

You're looking for the word "sack."

You see the apostrophe on the end of sac'? That denotes an abbreviated word. RatElemental has correctly discerned what the rest of the word is:


Sac is often used as shorthand for "sacrifice"

"Sack" is a word with multiple meanings, including the one you implied "sac" indicates. "Sac" is, I believe, simply a mispelling of "sack" without the appostrophe to denote that it is, in fact, "sacrifice" abbreviated.

Although a quick googling seems to indicate that the apostrophe isn't actually necessary for my intended meaning.

[ShurikVch]

Make the Unspeakable Oath to Hastur (Call of Cthulhu d20) - you will get +1 Int every time you go up a level and 1/year for every year of your life.
Downside - 1d2 Cha drain, and if your Cha reach 0 at some point, you will become an NPC with Chosen of Hastur template
(If you die without becoming Chosen, then Hastur either inflict it on one of your relatives, or makes you Undead with Chosen of Hastur template)
For D&D game, Unspeakable Oath is 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell (Transmutation) and costs 1000 XP

[Segev]

Basically, it's this Chaotic magic disease with highly-random and permanent effects. Here's the list on d%.

(...)

Let's just say that using Warp Touch without some way to hack several rerolls is a very, very stupid idea.
First off, thanks for that list! I know that's a bit of work, and I appreciate the effort.

Secondly, yeah, that does seem like something you'd need to be...ready to cheese to control. Is it one roll per time you're infected? How does one usually wind up infected, if one is abusing it in some fashion?

The idea of going Cancer Mage is...interesting, but disturbing. Also, weird class, calling itself a "mage" when it's clearly not a magic-user and you never need to be one to get into it. In fact, it doesn't synergize at all, since you not only don't get addition to your caster level at first level, but it never adds to CL for any class. Definitely would be better to go human paragon if you're only sacrificing one caster level to get bonus Intelligence. If you're giving up two...well, the amount of investment required to get the disease enough times to eventually get that one you want is probably its own build, at this point. The deformities become somewhat character-defining.

Put another way: this is hardly something "just about every" high level wizard would do. It goes beyond what many would do even with a bit of an unusual focus on being smart.


For Pathfinder, the arcane discovery Idealize (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/idealize-su/) makes Fox's Cunning net a +8 and improving any other transmutation spell we're using, bringing it above the +6 item. None of the other arcane discoveries had anything useful, sadly.That's interesting. If you're one to do a lot of buffing for your allies, worth seriously considering. Would let you save on the headband, but you're looking at the bonus only lasting 20 minutes per 2nd-level spell slot devoted. Could get it up to 40 minutes per 3rd level spell slot. Probably slightly more worth it than the Cancer Mage approach, but likely again something you do more for concentrated adventuring periods or for specific instances, not to develop your "walking-around" intellect.

Still, this would actually be worth considering, especially for somebody who'd consider Fell Energy Spell as a feat, since the two effects would stack for buffing one's undead minions. A level 20 necromancer with both Fell Energy Spell and Idealize (two feats) can use Fell Energy mass cat's grace to add +10 to the dex of his skeleton archers, for example. Interestingly, Chain Spell is useless on fox's cunning, because it's a touch spell, meaning it doesn't obviate the mass versions of those spells.


Well, if you are doing Pathfinder. There is an alternative capstone Perfect Body, Flawless Mind (Ex). 8 points to put into whatever ability(ies) you want.Oh, that is interesting. These are even fairly generic. ..."The Boss" is perfect for an unrelated purpose. Holy cow. Thanks a lot for pointing these options out to me!


Make the Unspeakable Oath to Hastur (Call of Cthulhu d20) - you will get +1 Int every time you go up a level and 1/year for every year of your life.
Downside - 1d2 Cha drain, and if your Cha reach 0 at some point, you will become an NPC with Chosen of Hastur template
(If you die without becoming Chosen, then Hastur either inflict it on one of your relatives, or makes you Undead with Chosen of Hastur template)
For D&D game, Unspeakable Oath is 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell (Transmutation) and costs 1000 XPDo you get the Cha drain every level, too?

Good grief, putting this on a long-lived character gets insane quickly. I mean, it's drain, not permanent penalty, and drain heals. So an elf who swears this oath at age 120 has hundreds of points of intelligence by the time he's merely middle-aged! Imagine a lich with this!

[ShurikVch]

Do you get the Cha drain every level, too?Yes, and every year - too.


Good grief, putting this on a long-lived character gets insane quickly.My point!


I mean, it's drain, not permanent penalty, and drain heals.In the "original" Call of Cthulhu d20 - there are no way to restore the drain, thus it could be just called permanent penalties, but WotC doesn't changed it for D&D official adaptation... :smallamused:


So an elf who swears this oath at age 120 has hundreds of points of intelligence by the time he's merely middle-aged!Or Dragon...
Or Shade...


Imagine a lich with this!Undead may be ruled as ageless, thus - no more bonuses (also, high chance for Hastur claiming you upon the transformation...)

[Segev]

Undead may be ruled as ageless, thus - no more bonuses (also, high chance for Hastur claiming you upon the transformation...)

Well, that's why I inscribed his true name on myself, and have this ridiculously valuable diamond nearby....

Trap the soul is hillariously nasty that way.

[magic9mushroom]

First off, thanks for that list! I know that's a bit of work, and I appreciate the effort.

Secondly, yeah, that does seem like something you'd need to be...ready to cheese to control. Is it one roll per time you're infected? How does one usually wind up infected, if one is abusing it in some fashion?

Let's just say it was less work than you think.

The only mechanical way to be infected (i.e. not DM ruling that you've been exposed to horrible magic) is to have someone poke you with a Warpsword, a magic item costing 78k gp. The rules aren't exactly clear on whether you can be infected with it multiple times.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's just say it was less work than you think.

The only mechanical way to be infected (i.e. not DM ruling that you've been exposed to horrible magic) is to have someone poke you with a Warpsword, a magic item costing 78k gp. The rules aren't exactly clear on whether you can be infected with it multiple times.

There's nothing aside from the result that suggests warp touch should be treated as particularly special so it should be possible to afflict a target with the contagion spell. There's also nothing suggesting it's a one time only kind of deal so being infected multiple times should be no more difficult than being whacked with either the sword or the spell multiple times.

[RNightstalker]

Let's just say that using Warp Touch without some way to hack several rerolls is a very, very stupid idea.

Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel, stacked with a few MIC items that grant rerolls, or wish for a few.

There are some Elixirs from a dragon magazine which give unnamed bonuses to stats, but they are considered artifacts.

[Kaiwen]

Extract Gift gives you a permanent enhancement bonus to an attribute equal to 1/2 that of the demon you extract from, and since it's not an item, it's not limited to +6 pre-epic. It is, however, limited by caster level. You must have a CL 4x the bonus you receive.

Start with an Obyrith, the demon with the highest int, 25.
Diplomacy or bargain to get its cooperation for a few days; they're immune to mind affecting so you can't just dominate it.
We can give it a +3 tome or a few wishes for +3 inherent. This can probably be considered part of its payment as far as the initial bargain.
Bestow Curse x3 to age it to venerable for an extra +3 untyped. (This use is in BoVD.)
It has +25 UMD, so it can emulate being a horse for Horseshoes of Flame for +10 untyped to int.
Have it UPD a dorje of Assimilate for +4 untyped to int.
Have it UMD a CL15 scroll of Transfusion (Drag339) on it for +5 untyped.
Give it a necrotic cyst and have it UMD a scroll of Necrotic Empowerment for +8 enhancement.
Have it UMD a scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity for another +4 untyped.
(Extract Gift takes 1 hour to cast, so Alacritous Cogitation it to cast it before the sub-hour/level buffs wears off.)
In total, it now has 64 int, or +26.
This means we can Extract Gift a +13 enh, if we have CL52, which isn't hard to reach with Circle Magic, and not impossible without it.


82.5k gp for a +3 Tome of Clear Thought (or 15k xp for 2x Wish).
I'm not counting Horseshoes of Flame, since you probably get to reuse them afterwards for +10 to your own int.
114.75k gp for a dorje of Assimilate, or 3825 gp if you downgrade to a power stone.
2812.5 gp for 3 CL15 scrolls of Transfusion. (You might need multiple until you roll a 5 or 6, expected number is 3 for 937.5 each)
1500 gp for a scroll of Necrotic Empowerment.
1912.5 gp for a scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity.
Finally, 169k for Extract Gift's material component.

372,475 gp in total.
179,050 gp if you take the budget options of casting wish + power stone.


In the end, either way it's still cheaper than a +13 enhancement item including the epic price multiplier, which prices in at a WBL-crushing 1,366,000 gp.

Edit: If you recur this with another obyrith, replacing Necrotic Empowerment with Extract Gift, you can squeeze an extra +2 out of it if you also increase the inherent bonus to +5 the second time around for a total of +15 pre-epic.

Edit 2: It has come to my attention that polymorph changes your type and subtype, so a better version of this trick would start with an uvuudaum (the most intelligent outsider at 32 int), dominate it (it's not immune to mind affecting), do all of the above, plus dosing it on Luhix for an extra +2 alchemical, polymorphing into a human and back to pick up a +1 untyped from the Worm of Minauros, and finally polymorphing into a quasit to become a valid target for Extract Gift. In total this would get you a +16 enh without recursion, +18 with 1-deep recursion.

Edit 3: If you had an artificer nearby, you could instead give it +6 enh items in each of its wondrous item slots and have the artificer turn them all into dodge bonuses. AFAIK, dodge bonuses from the same source are never said not to stack, but if they are, just use different types. That's an extra +60. After doing the whole Extract Gift routine, your initial bonus is now +36, and then as you recur it becomes +43, +44, and finally +45. Pre-epic, not counting money, if you can get caster level 180. But until then, your enhancement bonus is 1/4 your caster level, whatever you can boost it to.

Edit 4: If you do whatever this thing (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9983.0) is, you can end up with a caster level of 960 if you programmed amnesia yourself correctly, so I guess you get that +45 after all.

Edit 5: Artificer + slotless items of +enh to int means you can raise a creature's intelligence indefinitely, so combining that with CL960 and a demiplane full of gold and gems gets you +240 enhancement to int.

[Psyren]

Venerable age gets you another +3 untyped. Take the PF Wizard's Immortality Arcane Discovery (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality/) to deal with the pesky physical penalties.

[Calthropstu]

Ok. The op mentions PF.

So, let's start getting creative. You have 36 int.
First we tap the magic item creation rules and look at some custom items.
We get a +6 luck bonus custom item.
We get a +6 profane bonus custom item.
We get a +6 sacred bonus custom item.
We get a +6 circumstance bonus custom item.
So now we are at 60, but why stop there?
Let's look at getting a +6 untyped bonus as well. Now we're at 66.
We have now stretched the limits of items, but let's see what else we can do.
Since this is PF, start looking at mythic. You can get mythic bonuses to stats.
That is the extent of my knowledge, but I am sure there are more ways.

[magic9mushroom]

There's nothing aside from the result that suggests warp touch should be treated as particularly special so it should be possible to afflict a target with the contagion spell. There's also nothing suggesting it's a one time only kind of deal so being infected multiple times should be no more difficult than being whacked with either the sword or the spell multiple times.

Contagion has a whitelist of seven diseases. Warp Touch isn't on it.

As I said, not especially clear (can you contract slimy doom while you already have slimy doom? I don't know). Definitely nothing explicitly saying you can't, though.

[Segev]

Ok. The op mentions PF.

So, let's start getting creative. You have 36 int.
First we tap the magic item creation rules and look at some custom items.
We get a +6 luck bonus custom item.
We get a +6 profane bonus custom item.
We get a +6 sacred bonus custom item.
We get a +6 circumstance bonus custom item.
So now we are at 60, but why stop there?
Let's look at getting a +6 untyped bonus as well. Now we're at 66.
We have now stretched the limits of items, but let's see what else we can do.
Since this is PF, start looking at mythic. You can get mythic bonuses to stats.
That is the extent of my knowledge, but I am sure there are more ways.

I suppose this works, but aren't these going to be ludicrously expensive?

[Biggus]

I suppose this works, but aren't these going to be ludicrously expensive?

Neither 3.5 or PF has prices listed for nonstandard ability score items in the item creation guidelines. A few such items do exist is 3.5 though (I don't know about PF) so it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask the DM if you can make them. Looking at the prices for save and AC items with nonstandard bonuses, they'd probably cost either 2 or 2.5 times as much as an enhancement bonus, so 72,000-90,000GP for a +6 item.

Edit: what you could do though is have a bunch of +2 items as they work out a lot cheaper. Looking at the ability scores handbook, there are items which give morale, circumstance and untyped bonuses, and spells which give sacred and profane bonuses, so those at least should potentially be possible. The Chameleon class gives a competence bonus so that does exist. A +2 item of all of those would add +12 total for a cost of 48,000-60,000GP.

There are also size, alchemical, racial and deformity bonuses, but I don't know whether a DM would let you make items which give those. Luck and Insight bonuses don't appear to exist.

[Kaiwen]

A CL20 command word item of Extended Item Alteration costs 180k gp, so you could get around the higher price that way. One activation lasts ~7 hours, so it wouldn't be too awful having to reactivate it (once for each item) when it wears off.

Alternatively, if you want to pay a premium for convenience, you could get dongle of continuous Item Alteration at min. CL for 96k each and Sovereign Glue them to each item you have.

[Segev]

A CL20 command word item of Extended Item Alteration costs 180k gp, so you could get around the higher price that way. One activation lasts ~7 hours, so it wouldn't be too awful having to reactivate it (once for each item) when it wears off.

Alternatively, if you want to pay a premium for convenience, you could get dongle of continuous Item Alteration at min. CL for 96k each and Sovereign Glue them to each item you have.

And now I'm picturing a Japanese stereotype of a drunken salaryman taken to eleven, with each Headband of Intellect being a necktie whose dangling bit is the "dongle," and wearing a half dozen of them around his head at once.


Edit: For clarity's sake, the stereotype is Japanese, and (I believe) specific to the culture; this is not a commentary on any ethnicity or phenotype. I have only seen the representation in anime and done with very specific collections of tropes surrounding the uniquely Japanese form of "salaryman culture" and after-work drunken partying.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And now I'm picturing a Japanese stereotype of a drunken salaryman taken to eleven, with each Headband of Intellect being a necktie whose dangling bit is the "dongle," and wearing a half dozen of them around his head at once.


Edit: For clarity's sake, the stereotype is Japanese, and (I believe) specific to the culture; this is not a commentary on any ethnicity or phenotype. I have only seen the representation in anime and done with very specific collections of tropes surrounding the uniquely Japanese form of "salaryman culture" and after-work drunken partying.Reminds me of the old "rings all the way down" trick, where you get a +1 morphing ringsword, turn it into a poison ring (which, as a ring, auto-sizes to fit the wearer), enhance it as a magic ring, and repeat. You can stack as many rings as you like this way, wrapping them around your wrists as long as needed. And if each ringsword ring is also a sizing ring, you can turn the rings not directly on your fingers into a fine chain, instead.

Especially useful for cloned ([url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) fanged rings + DCFS loops to get all the feats you care to eat.

[Kaiwen]

Reminds me of the old "rings all the way down" trick, where you get a +1 morphing ringsword, turn it into a poison ring (which, as a ring, auto-sizes to fit the wearer), enhance it as a magic ring, and repeat. You can stack as many rings as you like this way, wrapping them around your wrists as long as needed. And if each ringsword ring is also a sizing ring, you can turn the rings not directly on your fingers into a fine chain, instead.

Especially useful for cloned ([url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) fanged rings + DCFS loops to get all the feats you care to eat.

Wait, can morphing weapons be enhanced as their current forms? Like, could you put ring enchantments on a sword currently turned into a ring?

If so, would it work with PAO?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wait, can morphing weapons be enhanced as their current forms? Like, could you put ring enchantments enhancements on a sword currently turned into a ring?

If so, would it work with PAO?Staff weapons can be enhanced as both +1 magical weapons and wizard staves, necklaces of natural weapons can be enhanced as magical necklaces, and gauntlets can be enhanced as magical gloves, so I don't see why that wouldn't work. Though I imagine you have to actually wear such a ring as a ring for it to work as a ring.

However, you'd have to dispel the weapon prior to PAOing it, since PAO only affects nonmagical items. Or if it was a Device from Ravenloft.