5e Charisma Optimization

[J'Tal]

I'm wanting to build a character using the Charisma attribute as much as possible. I generally hate the bard class but I'm not afraid to dip into the class as needed. In previous editions, I found that the Charisma attribute (if used correctly) has the most benefits. I'm trying to see if it's possible in 5e as well.

[Undyne]

I'm wanting to build a character using the Charisma attribute as much as possible. I generally hate the bard class but I'm not afraid to dip into the class as needed. In previous editions, I found that the Charisma attribute (if used correctly) has the most benefits. I'm trying to see if it's possible in 5e as well.

Depends what you mean by optimize.

Want to make the most out of skills? Rogue or Bard are great choices.

Want Damage or just generally powerful spells? Sorcerer or Warlock are great.

What exactly are you going for?

[Bobthewizard]

In general, bard is the best at charisma skills but there are other ways to do it. I think this might be what you are looking for:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face

[J'Tal]

In general, bard is the best at charisma skills but there are other ways to do it. I think this might be what you are looking for:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face

Yes, I want to essentially be a 'social god'. At the same time, I'd like to use my charisma in combat. I in 3.5 I had a paladin of freedom (CG) with 30+ Charisma (I used some templates... yes, 3.5 is broken)

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm wanting to build a character using the Charisma attribute as much as possible. I generally hate the bard class but I'm not afraid to dip into the class as needed. In previous editions, I found that the Charisma attribute (if used correctly) has the most benefits. I'm trying to see if it's possible in 5e as well.

A table that may help:



Class
Reliance on Charisma
Role of Charisma



Sorcerer
5/5
Enhances their casting.



Warlock
5/5
Enhances their casting and synergizes with their naturally manipulative powers.


Bard
4/5
Enhances casting, support role, and their social skills


Paladin
3/5
Charisma fuels some utility and combat augments]


Rogue
1/5
Charisma assists with non-combat skills and specific subclass abilities



Note: A few levels into Hexblade (Warlock) can cause your weapon attacks to utilize Charisma for their attacking. This can mean turning almost every character/class that relies on attacking into a Charisma character. Just keep in mind that they're still going to be dependent on Str or Dex to get decent AC.

[Undyne]

Yes, I want to essentially be a 'social god'. At the same time, I'd like to use my charisma in combat. I in 3.5 I had a paladin of freedom (CG) with 30+ Charisma (I used some templates... yes, 3.5 is broken)

For the social aspect, Bard is fun, but if you'd rather avoid it, Rogue is nice, too. Multiclassing them together is absolutely hilarious, especially if you take the Prodigy feat. To give you an idea, in general...

Level 5. Rogue 1, Bard 4.

4 skills from Rogue.
2 Skills from Half Elf
2 Skills from background
1 Skill from Bard
2 Expertise from Rogue at level 1.
2 Expertise from Bard at level 3 of Bard.
1 Expertise and 1 Skill from Prodigy at level 4 of Bard.

I've personally done this build, and it's hilarious as a skill monkey.

[ravenkith]

I'm wanting to build a character using the Charisma attribute as much as possible. I generally hate the bard class but I'm not afraid to dip into the class as needed. In previous editions, I found that the Charisma attribute (if used correctly) has the most benefits. I'm trying to see if it's possible in 5e as well.

Here's a build stub for a Paladin of Lloth crit-fishing build that is serviceable at range and in melee. It's pretty much only dependent on the CHA/CON abilities alone when using full Plate, although it does need a 13 str to multiclass. (15 to be able to cast spells in full plate, but I'd probably go breast plate and keep the ability to stealth anyways, so why spend the extra two points?)

It's a Lloth-worshipping (luck/darkness aspects) Paladin/Hexblade.

Starting stats (array): STR 13 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 16

One option is to go with a heavy weapon (Great sword or Maul) take the thematic gambler background (deception, insight, never tell me the odds, Cards) or pick something you'd rather have, and progress in the following fashion:

Paladin (Ancients) 1 (All armor, all weapon types, Lay on Hands, Persuasion, Insight - use gambler's insight to get stealth)
Warlock (Hexblade) 1 (CHA as main stat, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, HEX, HEXBLADE'S CURSE, SHIELD)
Warlock 2 Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast, Faerie Fire (Racial)
Paladin 2 GWF, Smite,
Paladin 3 Darkness (racial), Nature's Wrath (Could reflavor as tough webbing if DM is cool w/ it)
Paladin 4 Elven Accuracy - Pick Charisma (BUILD FULLY ONLINE - EVERYTHING AFTER THIS IS GRAVY)
Paladin 5 Extra Attack
Paladin 6 CHA to all saves
Paladin 7 Magic Resistance vs all spells (advantage on saving throws v Spells)
Paladin 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 3 Pact of the Chain - Imp Familiar says WHAT!
Warlock 4 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 5 Invocation (One With Shadows)
Warlock 6 Accursed Specter
Warlock 7 Invocation (Gift of the Ever Living Ones)
Warlock 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky/Other potential Feat

Basically, you have a variety of ways of getting advantage, you're darkness and luck themed to the hilt, and you get some arguably SWEET capstones in gift of the ever living ones, which maxes your HP recovery dice as long as your familiar is around, and a 5th ASI.

You will end up with 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3rd and 2 4th level spell slots, with the 4th level slots regenerating on a short rest.

You get two attacks, plus have a number of options of what to do with our bonus actions/reactions, and have the ability to 'modify' attack rolls, saves, ability checks all within the rules. It's such a neat concept, I might even play it, although you WILL need some way to mitigate sunlight sensitivity.

Arguably a half drow might be a better choice, if you don't want to mess with the light sensitivity, and they also get +2 cha instead of just +1, but full drow get perception proficiency, so YMMV

[Bobthewizard]

Yes, I want to essentially be a 'social god'. At the same time, I'd like to use my charisma in combat. I in 3.5 I had a paladin of freedom (CG) with 30+ Charisma (I used some templates... yes, 3.5 is broken)

To use your Charisma in combat, you might want to look at Hexblade. At first level, it gives you the ability to use Charisma as your attack stat for a weapon. A one level dip in Hexblade is so good for a paladin, sorcerer, or bard that it is overdone, but if you've never played it, it would be fun.

[J'Tal]

Here's a build stub for a Paladin of Lloth crit-fishing build that is serviceable at range and in melee. It's pretty much only dependent on the CHA/CON abilities alone when using full Plate, although it does need a 13 str to multiclass. (15 to be able to cast spells in full plate, but I'd probably go breast plate and keep the ability to stealth anyways, so why spend the extra two points?)

It's a Lloth-worshipping (luck/darkness aspects) Paladin/Hexblade.

Starting stats (array): STR 13 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 16

One option is to go with a heavy weapon (Great sword or Maul) take the thematic gambler background (deception, insight, never tell me the odds, Cards) or pick something you'd rather have, and progress in the following fashion:

Paladin (Ancients) 1 (All armor, all weapon types, Lay on Hands, Persuasion, Insight - use gambler's insight to get stealth)
Warlock (Hexblade) 1 (CHA as main stat, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, HEX, HEXBLADE'S CURSE, SHIELD)
Warlock 2 Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast, Faerie Fire (Racial)
Paladin 2 GWF, Smite,
Paladin 3 Darkness (racial), Nature's Wrath (Could reflavor as tough webbing if DM is cool w/ it)
Paladin 4 Elven Accuracy - Pick Charisma (BUILD FULLY ONLINE - EVERYTHING AFTER THIS IS GRAVY)
Paladin 5 Extra Attack
Paladin 6 CHA to all saves
Paladin 7 Magic Resistance vs all spells (advantage on saving throws v Spells)
Paladin 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 3 Pact of the Chain - Imp Familiar says WHAT!
Warlock 4 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky
Warlock 5 Invocation (One With Shadows)
Warlock 6 Accursed Specter
Warlock 7 Invocation (Gift of the Ever Living Ones)
Warlock 8 ASI: Charisma Bumps/Lucky/Other potential Feat

Basically, you have a variety of ways of getting advantage, you're darkness and luck themed to the hilt, and you get some arguably SWEET capstones in gift of the ever living ones, which maxes your HP recovery dice as long as your familiar is around, and a 5th ASI.

You will end up with 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3rd and 2 4th level spell slots, with the 4th level slots regenerating on a short rest.

You get two attacks, plus have a number of options of what to do with our bonus actions/reactions, and have the ability to 'modify' attack rolls, saves, ability checks all within the rules. It's such a neat concept, I might even play it, although you WILL need some way to mitigate sunlight sensitivity.

Arguably a half drow might be a better choice, if you don't want to mess with the light sensitivity, and they also get +2 cha instead of just +1, but full drow get perception proficiency, so YMMV

This is what I was looking for, Thank you

[Ventruenox]

The Conquest Paladin/Hexblade combo is also worth a look. Guide here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest)

[DarknessEternal]

Why would you care about an Imp familiar?

[J'Tal]

The Conquest Paladin/Hexblade combo is also worth a look. Guide here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest)

That is awesome, reading through the post, all I can see is Darth Vader and his fear inspiring aura.

[Amechra]

An alternative to Ancients/Conquest would be going for Devotion Paladin - they get a Channel Divinity that lets you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with a buffed weapon for the next minute.

Also, if you want to be a social god, I'd pick up Beguiling Influence instead of Devil's Sight - it gives you proficiency in Deception and Persuasion, making it very easy to pick up proficiency with all three social skills + Insight. I'd also at least consider taking Mask of Many Faces instead of Agonizing Blast. Heresy, I know, but if you're primarily going Paladin, Eldritch Blast is going to be a back-up option for you anyway, so you might as well grab something more broadly useful.

[ravenkith]

An alternative to Ancients/Conquest would be going for Devotion Paladin - they get a Channel Divinity that lets you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with a buffed weapon for the next minute.

Also, if you want to be a social god, I'd pick up Beguiling Influence instead of Devil's Sight - it gives you proficiency in Deception and Persuasion, making it very easy to pick up proficiency with all three social skills + Insight. I'd also at least consider taking Mask of Many Faces instead of Agonizing Blast. Heresy, I know, but if you're primarily going Paladin, Eldritch Blast is going to be a back-up option for you anyway, so you might as well grab something more broadly useful.

Eldritch blast and agonizing blast are pretty important.

While you can attack twice with your great sword per round, possibly smiting on both, because of spell slots being limited, you may want to hold those attacks back until you face the boss.

At higher levels, eb gives you four attacks in a single round.

Using your familiars concentration and your own, you can give yourself extra dice of damage added to your attacks, either with melee or your eb, for minutes at a time (the hex spell for instance). Getting 4x those bonus dice in each round can add up FAST.

It’s a more sustainable attack pattern.

With deception, persuasion and insight as proficient skills, your already doing well on the social side.

Devils sight plus darkness is an awesome source of advantage- you don’t want to give it up.

The imp familiar is awesome. Others have typed up the many uses of familiars, so I won’t rehash it here, but the normal great benefits get enhanced further by the gift of the everliving ones invocation- it’s a BIG advantage to know that as long as your familiar is around, ANY dice rolled to heal you will just be maximized for you instead.

Cure wounds, heal potions, recovery dice - maximized, all of em.

You’re d10 and d8 hit dice? They mean you get 10hp back and 8hp back EVERY time.

You’re cure wounds? That’s going to give you 8hp per spell level plus cha mod every time you cast. No random element.

This means that when you choose to heal yourself, you never get screwed by rolling a 1.

[DarknessEternal]

Using your familiars concentration

You sure that's a thing the rules allow?

[Galithar]

You sure that's a thing the rules allow?

In limited situations. Give an Imp familiar a Ring of Spell storing and they can cast concentration spells that you stored in it. They would then be the creature concentrating on the spell. Just know that with some DMs that's a good way to lose your Ring of Spell Storing. Once that familiar dies it just drops to the ground for anyone to snatch and bolt with

Though since he was implying it using Hex I'm not sure that's what he had in mind.

[ravenkith]

In limited situations. Give an Imp familiar a Ring of Spell storing and they can cast concentration spells that you stored in it. They would then be the creature concentrating on the spell. Just know that with some DMs that's a good way to lose your Ring of Spell Storing. Once that familiar dies it just drops to the ground for anyone to snatch and bolt with

Though since he was implying it using Hex I'm not sure that's what he had in mind.

There’s a lot of things that you can do with an extra concentration slot and a spell storing ring.

You could do bless, haste, fly, magic weapon, elemental weapon, or even Aura of Vitality.

Of course, you can also do spells that don’t require concentration as well, and this list above just covers some of the stuff that you can do yourself with the paladin and warlock spell lists.

In a full party, other options can become available as well. You’re really only limited by your imagination here.

Let me draw your attention to the aura of vitality spell for a second, here - just realize, with this build, you basically just got a healing factor of 12 points per round that can, if you’re at full hp, be directed to others for the standard 2d6 a round. That’s a pretty beefy use of a spell slot from a previous day.

As to the imp dropping the item- the critter is invisible, flying, extremely difficult to damage with spells and non magical weapons, and flat out immune to fire and poison, and can happily benefit from Buff spells.

With your shade and your steed also running around, as well as your other party members, the enemy will probably have better things to do than chase your imp, lol

[Galithar]

There’s a lot of things that you can do with an extra concentration slot and a spell storing ring.

You could do bless, haste, fly, magic weapon, elemental weapon, or even Aura of Vitality.

Of course, you can also do spells that don’t require concentration as well, and this list above just covers some of the stuff that you can do yourself with the paladin and warlock spell lists.

In a full party, other options can become available as well. You’re really only limited by your imagination here.

Let me draw your attention to the aura of vitality spell for a second, here - just realize, with this build, you basically just got a healing factor of 12 points per round that can, if you’re at full hp, be directed to others for the standard 2d6 a round. That’s a pretty beefy use of a spell slot from a previous day.

As to the imp dropping the item- the critter is invisible, flying, extremely difficult to damage with spells and non magical weapons, and flat out immune to fire and poison, and can happily benefit from Buff spells.

With your shade and your steed also running around, as well as your other party members, the enemy will probably have better things to do than chase your imp, lol

It sounds good on paper, but one AoE spell and your Imp is toast. I never said it wouldn't work. I said it's risky.

Your Imp only has 10 health. And invisible doesn't mean hidden. A disadvantaged attack against AC 13 isn't that hard to make. And if your DM isn't playing enemies smart enough to target the flying healbot (or whatever it's doing) then you probably don't even need the boost from it.

I'm just saying it's an extremely risky thing to do as there are plenty of ways for a low health low AC creature to get killed.

[Wasp]

With Eberron you could also take a Changeling to get +3 CHA at first level.

[Galithar]

With Eberron you could also take a Changeling to get +3 CHA at first level.

RAW they left that open as a possibility, but I'm relatively certain that RAI no race is supposed to be able to start with a +3 in any stat. Whether that works is going to be slightly dependent on your DM. So check before you plan on it.

[ravenkith]

It sounds good on paper, but one AoE spell and your Imp is toast. I never said it wouldn't work. I said it's risky.

Your Imp only has 10 health. And invisible doesn't mean hidden. A disadvantaged attack against AC 13 isn't that hard to make. And if your DM isn't playing enemies smart enough to target the flying healbot (or whatever it's doing) then you probably don't even need the boost from it.

I'm just saying it's an extremely risky thing to do as there are plenty of ways for a low health low AC creature to get killed.

I can see I'm going to have to spell this out for you (sigh).

First off, if you're really worried about the durability of your imp, you can always buff it, or give it additional (possibly magic) items. It's basically like any other character, in that it is humanoid shaped, so there are any number of ways to improve it. Get creative! If you're worried about his armor class, go buy him some armor :D

Your imp can benefit from things like aid and mage armor. It can even be the target of a warding bond. Hell, depending on the circumstances, Sanctuary could be a huge defense for the little guy. It can even benefit from feats like inspiring leader.

That said, with the imp's in-built magic resistance (advantage on all saves) and getting to add your charisma bonus to its saves (could be anywhere up to +5 for each at this level depending on how you do stats and spend your ASIs), combined with it's natural bonus of +3 to dex saves for a total of +8, plus the full blown damage immunities (poison/fire) and the half/quarter damage from cold, the majority of the common big AOE spells (fireball for example) just are going to flat BOUNCE OFF the imp even without any buffs or items.

But that's not all!

If, for whatever reason, you don't want to mess with buffing your imp or giving him better items to safe guard him, but you feel paranoid about possibly losing the items you're having the imp wield, you can just tell your DM you have a familiar and he's going to be hiding in your hiking-sized backpack at all times.

Now that your (tiny sized, potentially invisible) familiar is in your backpack, and he never comes out, but he can see/touch you through the hole you cut in the backpack's panel that brushes up against YOUR back, you win.

You guys can communicate telepathically, so no one ever needs to know he is in there if you don't want them to. Even if they DO know he's in there, they can't directly target him because the backpack breaks line of sight!

If you're feeling slightly LESS paranoid, you can also get the benefit of being able to ask your familiar to hand you specific items out of your backpack as well, but given your stated issues here, I'd say that it is counter-indicated in your case.

The imp continues to do his shenanigans, which are completely hidden from view, and if the DM wants to target him, he's making himself a metagaming ahole, and even if the imp dies, all your **** is still in your backpack anyways (shrug).

As a side note, with the way that the rules are written, your imp just has to be within 5 feet of an enemy to help you attack them. Nothing says he can't be hiding in your backpack the whole time or that they ever have to be aware of his presence, but that's a potentially controversial interpretation of the rules, so YMMV.

Then there's the potential added benefit of farming the imp's poison and going full frank's red hot with it. Sure it's only DC11 for 3d6 etra damage, but every little bit counts.

Overall the imp is pretty awesome, totally flavorful and thematic for the build, and much like the minor illusion cantrip restricted in its utility only by your imagination.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Paladin 7 Magic Resistance vs all spells (advantage on saving throws v Spells)

Slight nitpick: That's not what the ancient's paladin Aura of Warding does. It only gives damage resistance vs spells.

[ravenkith]

Slight nitpick: That's not what the ancient's paladin Aura of Warding does. It only gives damage resistance vs spells.

Damn, you're right!

Although, talking about the imp, I'd actually forgotten to mention the oath of the ancients magic resistance! LOL.

The imp has the other type of magic resistance as a part of its stat block, (they are named the same thing, but are clearly different, so confusing), and so would actually have advantage on all spell saves (imp magic resistance), and then take half the damage he would have normally taken (oath of the ancients spell resistance).

Thanks for reminding me, GL!

As a side note, they should rename the advantage kind to Spell resistance and call the damage kind magic damage resistance, but NOOOOOOOOOOO.......

[DarknessEternal]

Creatures cannot occupy the same space in 5e.

[ravenkith]

Creatures cannot occupy the same space in 5e.

Patently false.

Before you get mad, you are right in that the rules state that 1) a creature cannot willingly end its move in another creatures space and 2) If you both wish to attack effectively, you need your own space, but goes on to say that multiple tiny creatures may occupy the same space and 3) goes on to have rules for swarms, which then have combat statistics. In addition 4) there are rules for squeezing through tight spaces which would cause drawbacks to sharing spaces theoretically, but none of that really matters, because of the rules for mounts. (PHB 198).

I won't reproduce the text here in its entirety, because rules, but the most important text is this: "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount, using the following rules..."

If you have your imp treat you as a mount (you are intelligent, so you act independently, and can cast/attack/whatever you want) and the backpack as an exotic saddle, there are 0 problems. Jeez, this is basic stuff, people.

Oh and before you say anything about appropriate anatomies....here's a link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papoose) that shows you that the whole idea of tiny, sentient beings riding other, larger sentient beings is absolutely a thing. Here's another link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggyback_(transportation)). Oh and then there's these images (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_YT JBDUN8iSE%2FSu9bPzpEXUI%2FAAAAAAAACQI%2FfgUiQjz6jH w%2Fs400%2F1031091640.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmonkeybuddha.blogspot.com%2 F2009%2F11%2Fhalloween-09-luke-yoda.html&docid=b65LuxP0THB6kM&tbnid=QAH_U2zMAHXS6M%3A&vet=12ahUKEwinoPrhmbPmAhUOP60KHcAjAMA4ZBAzKA4wDnoE CAEQEA..i&w=300&h=400&bih=818&biw=1536&q=luke%20and%20yoda&ved=2ahUKEwinoPrhmbPmAhUOP60KHcAjAMA4ZBAzKA4wDnoEC AEQEA&iact=mrc&uact=8)....


You might not like it, you might think it's cheesy as ****, but it is 100% in the rules and totally legal (shrug).

[Wasp]

RAW they left that open as a possibility, but I'm relatively certain that RAI no race is supposed to be able to start with a +3 in any stat. Whether that works is going to be slightly dependent on your DM. So check before you plan on it.
Sure, although Jeremy Crawford did confirm it's RAI.

[Galithar]

Sure, although Jeremy Crawford did confirm it's RAI.

Can you provide a link? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to see the source. I'm going to likely have to argue against it when my powergamer player tries to bring in a level 4 Bard or Sorcerer with a 20 Cha off point buy.

[Aidamis]

I'm wanting to build a character using the Charisma attribute as much as possible. I generally hate the bard class but I'm not afraid to dip into the class as needed. In previous editions, I found that the Charisma attribute (if used correctly) has the most benefits. I'm trying to see if it's possible in 5e as well.

I'm playing in a campaign where Cha rolls seem to be used for a homebrew Madness system. So yes it's a very useful skill to have. For Heavy Charisma users I would suggest Changeling since Changelings are the Face skills kings and can start with 18 Cha (confirmed by J.Crawford). Bards get a lot of skills, including Cha-related skills, at level 1, but they get one less than the Rogue and don't get expertise until level 3. So if you want early game power, you may take a Rogue dip into consideration (1,2 or 3 any are good but the more you take the more spellpower you lose, though Arcane Tricksters get some spells, a spellcaster level and an Improved Mage Hand).

Changeling: auto-proficiency in two from Deception, Insight, Intimidation, or Persuasion.
Rogue: four from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth
Rogue: expertise in two of the four above or in one of the two above + Thieves' Tools
Background: up to you. Sailor gets some bases covered and you can choose to play a Charismatic pirate/ex navy. Haunted one (on DM approval unless you play Strahd) expands your skills choice as Rogues normally can't tap into Arcana and Nature.

Player class(es): Rogue 1, 2 or 3 then Bard for skill monkey, Warlock for Cheese, Paladin for Justice or Sorcerer for Power from Within (let's say you stole a golden statue and came in contact with a deity tied to your family's Protector Spirit, who decided to awaken your powers for your time has come). Example: Rogue 1, Warlock 2 (I'll get my invocations and run off), Bard 17 (skill monkey FTW, more expertise down the line, level 9 spells if you hit level 20, Magical secrets and more )
Stat requirements: 13 Dex for Rogue, 13 Cha for everything else (though an extra 13 Str entry price for Paladin unless the GM rules otherwise)

Cheers!

[Aidamis]

Can you provide a link? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to see the source. I'm going to likely have to argue against it when my powergamer player tries to bring in a level 4 Bard or Sorcerer with a 20 Cha off point buy.

twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1197377429288783873
Here you go.

[Galithar]

twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1197377429288783873
Here you go.

Thank you. Terrible decision and will never be allowed in my games, but good gaming to anyone that follows that. There is a reason every other race has had wording preventing the stacking to a +3 mod and intentionally breaking that is crapping on their previous design model.

Though seeing as how the book has been out for nearly a month and I just got it a few days ago I'm probably super late to this party haha

[Aidamis]

Thank you. Terrible decision and will never be allowed in my games, but good gaming to anyone that follows that. There is a reason every other race has had wording preventing the stacking to a +3 mod and intentionally breaking that is crapping on their previous design model.

Though seeing as how the book has been out for nearly a month and I just got it a few days ago I'm probably super late to this party haha

You're welcome. I've seen an argument that this isn't broken since a Variant Human can get +1 Cha (and another +1) and a Feat then +2 Cha at level 4 while the Changeling gets +3 Cha upfront and a Feat. However nothing prevents the Changeling from selecting +2 Cha if they want to be the very best than no one ever was.

[J'Tal]

A Changling Warlock/Paladin hybrid. Maybe a a dip in Rogue or Bard. You can spread rumors of your arrival by shifting into different people. Make a display of power and boom: instant reputation.

[Merudo]

A table that may help:



Class
Reliance on Charisma
Role of Charisma



Sorcerer
5/5
Enhances their casting.



Bard
4/5
Enhances casting, support role, and their social skills




Sorcerer should be 4/5. A lot of their spells don't rely on Charisma, and some of the best builds use little to no Charisma.

Bard should be 5/5. Charisma is crucial to get more Bardic Inspiration.

[DarknessEternal]

Sorcerer should be 4/5. A lot of their spells don't rely on Charisma, and some of the best builds use little to no Charisma.

Name 3, since it's "some".

[AgenderArcee]

Changeling (18 Cha at level 1), 2 levels in Hexblade, 3 levels in Bard (probably Swords for combat, but Glamour could be helpful as a Face/Support), 1 level in Rogue. Expertise in all Cha skills, use Cha for melee, add Cha to ranged (Agonizing Blast). Those six levels are the minimum requirement, you can mix in levels of any other Cha class from there as you like - keep going in Bard or Hexblade and get Extra Attack, get 2-6+ Paladin levels, throw in some Sorcerer for Metamagic if you're feeling it (Subtle Spell is great to prevent anyone from realizing you've tried to charm them). IDK what level you're starting at or expect to get to, or if this is just theorycrafting. If you start from a low level, save the extra Bard/Rogue levels for Expertise until after you get Extra Attack/Thirsting Blade. Best way to minimize delays is to go straight Hexblade until 5, then pick up Bard 3 Rogue 1. Oh also, Devotion Paladin's Channel Divinity lets you add your Cha modifier to your weapon attack rolls for a second time, though not damage I believe.

I think if I were doing this as a level 20 build I'd go... Hexblade 2/Bard (Swords) 3/Rogue 1/Paladin (Devotion or Ancients) 8/Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 6. This would make for a very silly character, but that's part of the fun. If you want something a little simpler and with 8th-level spells (Glibness is especially nice for us - you won't be able to roll lower a 33 on Charisma checks), go Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 3/Bard 15, if you don't hate Bards too much.

Also, if you can, at some point get a Tome of Leadership and Influence to boost your Cha to 22.