Lvl 1 rogue with Magic Initiate

[nickl_2000]

So, if you are creating a rogue from level 1, with the intent of going arcane trickster at level 3. Do you take find familiar at level 1 or shield with magic initiate?

Does it make a difference if two of the other three player have planned characters that are going to likely be awful at stealth?

[Gignere]

So, if you are creating a rogue from level 1, with the intent of going arcane trickster at level 3. Do you take find familiar at level 1 or shield with magic initiate?

Does it make a difference if two of the other three player have planned characters that are going to likely be awful at stealth?

If you plan to stealth at all I would suggest skulker or a race with Darkvision over magic initiate.

[nickl_2000]

If you plan to stealth at all I would suggest skulker or a race with Darkvision over magic initiate.

Having magic initiate is important to the personality and backstory I have in mind. So, while that may be more optimal, I want to keep magic initiate.

[Dork_Forge]

I would take shield, you'll likely not be casting find familiar every day, but Shield is always hand and take some pressure off your AT casting.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, I always go with Find Familiar, its literally your Trickster's best friend. I say this as an Arcane Trickster with a Familiar. I use it for all sorts of scouting.

Snag Shield once you get your AT levels, it can be your special extra spell that you get at level 3. Also, go for Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade as your cantrip. Both spells are amazing on a Rogue, as it basically gives you the damage of Extra Attack in a single roll at level 5 and above.

[da newt]

I am a BIG fan of an owl (or bat) for a rogue. It's a force multiplier. For Scouting they are very helpful. HELP action = ADV and therefor SA damage (and of course it can HELP anyone in the party).

I'd also recommend one of the SCaG cantrips.

[nickl_2000]

I am a BIG fan of an owl (or bat) for a rogue. It's a force multiplier. For Scouting they are very helpful. HELP action = ADV and therefor SA damage (and of course it can HELP anyone in the party).

I'd also recommend one of the SCaG cantrips.

There will likely be a sorcidin in the party, there is all kinds of good that a familiar will do. It’s more when I do it.

[Talionis]

Find Familar. RAW you don’t add Shield to your spelllist with magic initiate, so you can only cast it once a day. Once you have spell slots you could want to cast Shield more than once a day but rarely will you want to cast find familiar more than once.

[SVamp]

Find familiar, advantage on demand is priceless, and your familiar will get targeted once the DM gets fed up, lol.

Incidentally, dragon’s breath (lvl 2 spell) on an owl familiar allows it to do a flyby breath attack.. and an owl breathing fire is just too cool to never have experienced it, lol

[zinycor]

Find famiiar, Owls specially are amazing!

[Delph]

as many said - find familiar with owl... shield with magic initiate is for nothing. Better is mage armor (+1 to AC for 8 hours, and if you doesn't have studded leather much more) or Shield of Faith +2 AC for 10 min.

[T.G. Oskar]

Joining the chorus of people that suggest getting Find Familiar through Magic Initiate. As an Arcane Trickster, you might prefer learning Shield anyways - after all, either through Magic Initiate or your own cantrips you can get Booming Blade, which is murder as it improves on an AT. With a Familiar (I also second the suggestion of an Owl; it lets you get advantage on demand, and while it can be threatened, its Flyby ability and good fly speed means it can get out of range fast enough), you can always get Sneak Attacks with Booming Blade for solid strategies (send Owl to give Help to you, attack with Booming Blade and deal SA damage, then use Cunning Action to Disengage and lure the opponent to stay still or deal more damage). Then, you can keep Shield as a means of defense (particularly after you get Blur, or Haste + Cloak of Displacement to be virtually unhittable).

As a tangent: please tell me you'll get Warcaster sooner or later. You might not need a ton of Int if you go for buffing and utility spells, so you could focus on Dex and get Warcaster for advantage on concentration saves and a potential use of Booming Blade + SA as an Opportunity Attack.

[Arkhios]

Actually, I would take Mage Armor instead of Shield. You're likely to cast it (only) once every day, as it gives you better Armor Class than the best light armor available (Studded Leather 12 + Dexterity vs. Mage Armor 13 + Dexterity) and lasts for 8 hours. IMHO it's one of the best uses (if not The Best) for a single spell once per long rest.

[Daithi]

I'd also go with Find Familiar --- help action to get advantage so you can add sneak attack dice, and absolutely great for scouting.

Another thing to consider is that you get two cantrips for MI, and Mage Hand plus two more for AT as well, but which ones of those do you take?
Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation would probably be my choices.

Why Prestidigitation? It can "create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect", so you can make poisons taste good.
H/T to giantip.com, because I read that tip here on the site a couple weeks ago.

Edit: One thing to consider is a dip into Bladesinger. More cantrips, more spells, and phenomenal armor.

[Eldariel]

You want more than one Shield/day higher up. Thus, you should probably Magic Initiate for the spell you need to cast very rarely (i.e. Find Familiar) and pick Shield as an actual spell known. Familiar is also ridiculously useful in a myriad of ways so you want it ASAP.

[bendking]

Frankly I would simply dip into Wizard. Maybe even 2 levels for Bladesinger, if your DM will allow it (without being an Elf).
Barring that, Ritual Caster will do the trick as well.

[nickl_2000]

Frankly I would simply dip into Wizard. Maybe even 2 levels for Bladesinger, if your DM will allow it (without being an Elf).
Barring that, Ritual Caster will do the trick as well.

Bladesinger isn’t an option, as amazing as it would be

[Gignere]

Frankly I would simply dip into Wizard. Maybe even 2 levels for Bladesinger, if your DM will allow it (without being an Elf).
Barring that, Ritual Caster will do the trick as well.

If you do decide to dip wizard and your DM is a stickler the BS is elf/halfelf only War Wizard is also a great 2 level dip. You’d get int to initiative and a reaction for +4 to saves.

[ad_hoc]

Shield is a waste.

You already have Uncanny Dodge for your Reaction that doesn't consume resources.

[Gignere]

Shield is a waste.

You already have Uncanny Dodge for your Reaction that doesn't consume resources.

Shield is not a waste Uncanny Dodge is for 1 attack, Shield applies +5 AC for the rest of the round after the triggering attack. Obviously UD works for more things than physical attacks but Shield is still a good complement to UD.

[Lyracian]

I would take shield, you'll likely not be casting find familiar every day, but Shield is always hand and take some pressure off your AT casting.
Funny I would go the other way. Would much rather get Shield at Level 3 so I can cast it more than once a day.

I would feel unlucky if I was in a position of needing to cast FF more than once a day.

To the OP have you considered Ritual Caster? Still gives a magic feel to the character but allows you to get some other spells later (depending on access to buy spells in your campaign)

[nickl_2000]

Funny I would go the other way. Would much rather get Shield at Level 3 so I can cast it more than once a day.

I would feel unlucky if I was in a position of needing to cast FF more than once a day.

To the OP have you considered Ritual Caster? Still gives a magic feel to the character but allows you to get some other spells later (depending on access to buy spells in your campaign)

Nope, I haven’t. The cantrips from magic initiate are part of the reason that I want to take it. First of all, I love cantrips and second I want him to have that spark of magic gotten from magic initiate at level 1. It’s the feel of the character that I looking for.

Ritual caster is amazing, but not fitting in this PC.

[ad_hoc]

Shield is not a waste Uncanny Dodge is for 1 attack, Shield applies +5 AC for the rest of the round after the triggering attack. Obviously UD works for more things than physical attacks but Shield is still a good complement to UD.

You're ignoring the cost.

[clash]

I actually second mage armor. The trick to magic initiate, if you have another source of spellcasting is getting a spell that you would only want to cast once a day but at the same time a spell you would want to cast every day. Mage armor is basically +1 ac all day, every day. It is basically the equivalent of getting the defence fighting style without multiclassing for it. Out of the two options presented though, definitely Find Familiar

[Gignere]

You're ignoring the cost.

No I’m not - for these situations surrounded and about to eat 6 attacks Shield, dragon’s multiattack Shield. These are strictly better than UD.

Now on the other hand dragon’s breath, BBEG has one single badass attack with plus a gazillion to hit. These situations UD is better.

If you can’t see how they are complementary I don’t know what to say. Yes you can’t use them on the same round but shield nicely shores up a rogue’s weakness to tanking multiple foes and eating multi attacks.

[carrdrivesyou]

Odd suggestion, go MI for Warlock spells. Grab Hex 1/day, along with Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade.

1. Gives you a solid ranged option (given decent CHA), otherwise take something else.
2. Booming Blade will be great for hit and run tactics (abuse that cunning action).
3. Hex means that single attack each round hurts that much more. Also can be used to give Disadvantage against your Hideous Laughter.

Hope this helps.

[ad_hoc]

No I’m not - for these situations surrounded and about to eat 6 attacks Shield, dragon’s multiattack Shield. These are strictly better than UD.

Now on the other hand dragon’s breath, BBEG has one single badass attack with plus a gazillion to hit. These situations UD is better.

If you can’t see how they are complementary I don’t know what to say. Yes you can’t use them on the same round but shield nicely shores up a rogue’s weakness to tanking multiple foes and eating multi attacks.

Shield has a resource cost. A significant one.

Uncanny Defense doesn't.

Of course Shield would be awesome if it was unlimited use.

[Arkhios]

No I’m not - for these situations surrounded and about to eat 6 attacks Shield, dragon’s multiattack Shield. These are strictly better than UD.

Yes, yes you are.

Shield via Magic Initiate is once per long rest. Once you have used it, it certainly protects you for the rest of the round, but the rounds after that? Too bad, you've already expended the only use you had for the day!

Uncanny Dodge can be used round after round after round after round (...you get the idea, I'm sure).

Encounters often last for longer than one round, and unless you take a long rest after each encounter, you're in a tight spot with Shield.

...THAT SAID, if you choose the Magic Initiate spells from Wizard spell list and you become an Arcane Trickster afterwards, the spell you chose becomes part of your other wizard spells known, which you can cast with spell slots as normal.

[Gignere]

I’m not saying pick shield with MI I’m just arguing how it’s not a waste to have both shield and UD as the other poster was implying. Yes since we are talking about an AT I’m assuming you can use your spell slots to cast it.

So what if it costs resources, yes if you rather save resources and die when surrounded by 10 enemies than rather blow a spell slot and save your bacon you can play it that way. But that’s not my style.

[ad_hoc]

I’m not saying pick shield with MI I’m just arguing how it’s not a waste to have both shield and UD as the other poster was implying. Yes since we are talking about an AT I’m assuming you can use your spell slots to cast it.

So what if it costs resources, yes if you rather save resources and die when surrounded by 10 enemies than rather blow a spell slot and save your bacon you can play it that way. But that’s not my style.

It's a waste of half of a feat.

If you could just choose to cast shield 1/long rest with no cost, of course having the option is better than not having it.

If you are surrounded by 10 enemies you should be taking the Dodge action. That doesn't cost a feat either.

[Gignere]

It's a waste of half of a feat.

If you could just choose to cast shield 1/long rest with no cost, of course having the option is better than not having it.

If you are surrounded by 10 enemies you should be taking the Dodge action. That doesn't cost a feat either.

Unfortunately you can’t dodge as a reaction. Even in those situations shield is not a waste since it makes dodging that much more effective.

Edit - I think I misunderstood your post I thought you meant blanket that shield is wasted on an AT. I agree with you MI shouldn’t be used to select shield, it should be used for Find Familiar.

[Keravath]

1) Find Familiar is much better for Magic Initiate than shield since both are 1/day and you may want to use shield more often than that so it is better chosen as your out of school spell at level 3.

Mage Armor is another choice but I think Find Familiar is much better. Help action in combat to grant advantage and enable rogue sneak attack helps offense far more than +1 AC helps defense. Also, he scouting abilities of the familiar (especially the owl which flies, has darkvision, has flyby, and has advantage on perception checks with sight) are extremely useful. So, I would take find familiar over mage armor for most characters.

2) The shield spell and uncanny dodge both take a reaction. However, you can CHOOSE to use shield when you are hit which can turn it into a miss. You choose to use shield after seeing the die roll and knowing that you are hit. This will make shield a situationally a better choice than uncanny dodge despite the resource cost.
- shield mitigates 100% of the damage on a hit, UD mitigates 50%
- IF there are other attacks likely, shield makes all of these much less likely to hit by increasing AC by 5. UD does nothing to help with subsequent hits.
- Shield costs a spell slot and UD is free. Both take your reaction.

- If you are close to going down, shield could save you while UD might not.
- If there are multiple attacks and attackers, shield will mitigate much more damage that UD since it is 100% on the first attack and a significant decrease in hit percentage for the rest.
- If there is likely only one attack and you can take the damage ... rely on UD ... otherwise shield is a very worthwhile consideration if you have the spell slot.

[Keravath]

It's a waste of half of a feat.

If you could just choose to cast shield 1/long rest with no cost, of course having the option is better than not having it.

If you are surrounded by 10 enemies you should be taking the Dodge action. That doesn't cost a feat either.

If you are a rogue surrounded by 10 enemies, you are probably better off taking the disengage action and bonus action dash (or vice versa) to extricate yourself from the situation. If you can't get out then dodging might be your only choice (if you don't want to go down fighting) though it won't help that much against 10 opponents, some of them are going to hit anyway.

[nickl_2000]

It’s seems like the forum is leaning towards find familiar in general.

However, if the DM rules that a shield spell known through Magic Initiate can be cast with Arcane Trickster spells slots, does that make a difference or do you still prefer a familiar?

[Eldariel]

It’s seems like the forum is leaning towards find familiar in general.

However, if the DM rules that a shield spell known through Magic Initiate can be cast with Arcane Trickster spells slots, does that make a difference or do you still prefer a familiar?

Then it doesn't make much of a difference except for the levels where you pick it up. I think Find Familiar is overall more important but 1/day Shield can be a lifesaver on low levels. Still would lean towards the familiar.

[ad_hoc]

If you are a rogue surrounded by 10 enemies, you are probably better off taking the disengage action and bonus action dash (or vice versa) to extricate yourself from the situation. If you can't get out then dodging might be your only choice (if you don't want to go down fighting) though it won't help that much against 10 opponents, some of them are going to hit anyway.

I made the assumption that 10 enemies would cut off your avenue of escape.

Besides that, you are underselling Dodge here.

They're going to attack someone. If you can get them to attack a character with disadvantage then that is a big win for the party.

Or to put it another way, even if you could Dash and Disengage to get away those 10 enemies are going to be attacking someone. Better to have them attacking you with disadvantage than other party members without. In both cases you have used up your action on defense. It's just the Dodge actually contributes to the party's well-being (that or they ignore you to go after enemies who aren't dodging. In which case you have achieved your goal and will get an OA out of it too).

[zinycor]

It’s seems like the forum is leaning towards find familiar in general.

However, if the DM rules that a shield spell known through Magic Initiate can be cast with Arcane Trickster spells slots, does that make a difference or do you still prefer a familiar?

Absolutely. Find familiar is one of the best spells in the game, specially for a rogue, since the familiar can use the help action and it can help with reconnaissance.

Shield is a nice defensive spell. However it doesn't hep with the rogue's main functions.

[Chronos]

If you're interested in Find Familiar (which you should be; it's a great spell), you might also consider getting it via Ritual Caster. The upsides are that you get second 1st-level spell, plus the option to add more later (including higher levels), and you can cast it multiple times per day. The downside is that you don't get the cantrips, but you'll already get some of those from Arcane Trickster, and rogues don't depend on cantrips for attacking like full-casters do, so you don't need as many of them.

[zinycor]

If you're interested in Find Familiar (which you should be; it's a great spell), you might also consider getting it via Ritual Caster. The upsides are that you get second 1st-level spell, plus the option to add more later (including higher levels), and you can cast it multiple times per day. The downside is that you don't get the cantrips, but you'll already get some of those from Arcane Trickster, and rogues don't depend on cantrips for attacking like full-casters do, so you don't need as many of them.

Very good point.

[nickl_2000]

Nope, I haven’t. The cantrips from magic initiate are part of the reason that I want to take it. First of all, I love cantrips and second I want him to have that spark of magic gotten from magic initiate at level 1. It’s the feel of the character that I looking for.

Ritual caster is amazing, but not fitting in this PC.


If you're interested in Find Familiar (which you should be; it's a great spell), you might also consider getting it via Ritual Caster. The upsides are that you get second 1st-level spell, plus the option to add more later (including higher levels), and you can cast it multiple times per day. The downside is that you don't get the cantrips, but you'll already get some of those from Arcane Trickster, and rogues don't depend on cantrips for attacking like full-casters do, so you don't need as many of them.


Very good point.

See above, it got buried in other posts. None of you are wrong, but it isn't what I have in my mind for this character.

He's an urchin, with spotty education learned from sneaking into magic schools and learning. Illusions just stuck with him and he practiced until he could replicate them himself. I'm using the Silhouette spell from Elminster's Guide to Magic (3rd party, my DM said that some spells could be taken from there and this one seemed fun. Effective you can create lifelike shadow puppets on a wall) and Minor illusion. He used those two spells together to entertain (proficiency in performance) and earn his bread, as well as distract so that others could pick pockets.

So, with that in mind having a ritual book just doesn't fit what I am thinking. If I do go find familiar, I'm will likely re-fluff the rat stats into a mouse so that the mouse from the urchin background will be my first familiar.

[Daithi]

Then it doesn't make much of a difference except for the levels where you pick it up. I think Find Familiar is overall more important but 1/day Shield can be a lifesaver on low levels. Still would lean towards the familiar.

I agree with Eldariel here.

[Christian]

I would go with Find Familiar. Not for any min/max reasons, but because familiars are just tons of fun in a tiny package.

If you get a raven, you can use it like a ventriloquist's dummy to insult people you don't want to insult directly. "Blackwing, that's awful! One more crack like that, and I'm banishing you to your extradimensional room! ... I'm so sorry, he's just a rude, rude bird."

[Aidamis]

So, if you are creating a rogue from level 1, with the intent of going arcane trickster at level 3. Do you take find familiar at level 1 or shield with magic initiate?

Does it make a difference if two of the other three player have planned characters that are going to likely be awful at stealth?

Both FF and Shield are useful. For FF let me share a link with you: google [5e] Find Familiar - List of all animal stats, then go to the reddit page with the aforementioned title. This will lead you to a simple google drive file (Mods, feel free to check! there's zero viruses and the author isn't charging money, so I'm not trying to sell anything. Also, thank you for hard work :) )

FF has countless uses, including emergency team mate evacuation and spooking out enemies you don't necessarily want to fight.
Plus you have Mage Hand Legerdemain, which means in conjunction with a Familiar you can pull off some crazy stuff.

Other Magic Initiate classes worth considering are Cleric (Healing Word, cantrips such as Guidance or Light) and Druid (Create Flame for diversion then get the hell out, Goodberry for long missions where you'll be unlikely to find food easily).

Have fun choosing!

[Lyracian]

if the DM rules that a shield spell known through Magic Initiate can be cast with Arcane Trickster spells slots, does that make a difference or do you still prefer a familiar?
If the DM rules that way the follow up for me would be how fast are you reaching Level 3? If it is only 3-4 sessions then I would favour Shield. If it will be a dozen or more sessions then FF.

For my current AT I am planning on FF as Level 8 spell and then swapping it out later when I pick Ritual Caster at 10 or 12. We are using the Aim action from Unearthed Arcana so I have other options for Advantage at lower levels.

[zinycor]

Since you are going to be an arcane trickster eventually, maybe you should consider picking a spell from another class, that you wouldn't get access after.

I would recommend picking faerie fire from the artificer's list.

[Jaryn]

The idea of a mouse familiar sounds amazing to me! I'd go with that one. Shield can wait.

[JellyPooga]

The problem I have with Find familiar as your Magic Initiate spell is that you won't usually want to cast it every day. Yes, it's undeniably a good spell, but your MI pick wants to be something that A) doesn't need scaling to remain effective, B) you'll always want to cast once a day and C) you probably don't want to cast more than once a day. That makes something like Mage Armour a really effective choice because it fills all three criteria, Shield an ok choice because you probably want to cast it more than once a day and Find Familiar a bad choice because you don't even need to cast it once a day, meaning you're not getting the maximum use out of your Feat.

Now, given your backstory, I'm assuming you'll not be wanting to go completely outside the box with Cleric or Druid casting, but have you considered either the Bard or Warlock lists to pick up a spell that you won't be able to access from Arcane Trickster?

[Barny]

The problem I have with Find familiar as your Magic Initiate spell is that you won't usually want to cast it every day. Yes, it's undeniably a good spell, but your MI pick wants to be something that A) doesn't need scaling to remain effective, B) you'll always want to cast once a day and C) you probably don't want to cast more than once a day. That makes something like Mage Armour a really effective choice because it fills all three criteria, Shield an ok choice because you probably want to cast it more than once a day and Find Familiar a bad choice because you don't even need to cast it once a day, meaning you're not getting the maximum use out of your Feat.

Now, given your backstory, I'm assuming you'll not be wanting to go completely outside the box with Cleric or Druid casting, but have you considered either the Bard or Warlock lists to pick up a spell that you won't be able to access from Arcane Trickster?


I think you overrate mage armor and underrate find familiar spell by far.

For mage armor:
1) It only lasts for 8 hours, so it's useful when you can plan all your encounters during a day. However, there are encounters from surprise, and there might be multiple encounters but not within 8 hours. So +1 AC on encounters within 8 hours is ok.

2) It will become completely useless when you reach high level with other +1/+2/+3 light armors.

For find familiar:
1) It's an info gathering scout 24hr. (familiar is a spirit, which won't need a rest at all) Info is very useful in every asepcts, such as combat preparation, exploring and social interaction.

2) It's minor help in combat. Giving adv atk once per turn is ok. But when you are rich enough to risk your familiar, you can use it staying melee range as an ally creature to provide constant flanking advatages.

3) There are many creative uses/combos for your familiars and rogue's invisible mage hand/other cantrips.
e.g. My party need to travel through a mysterious fog with limited vision. Then I use both familiar owl and mage hand to hold one end of a 100ft rope. Owl familar is flying around the party with 100ft radius, and the mage hand is also cricling around the party. This way creatives a 100ft radious radar for detection in a heavily obscured area.
There are so many interesting combo posibilities. Your imagination and creativity are the limits.

4) In high level, a familiar can have better uses with magic items. For example, it can attuned to the ring of spell storing. So you can ask your party casters to store spells in the ring, and your familiar use the ring to cast the spells (e.g. bless/haste) on you/allies, and then fly away while maintaining the spell concentration.

In my personal comparison:
Mage armor: semi useful in low levels.
Shield: Useful in certain deadly encounters, with limited use 1/day, but imo the most deadly atks are monsters' natrual 20 and save spells/abilities anyway.
Find family: Constant helpful in both combat and social. Super useful in high level with other magic item combo.

[zinycor]

The problem I have with Find familiar as your Magic Initiate spell is that you won't usually want to cast it every day. Yes, it's undeniably a good spell, but your MI pick wants to be something that A) doesn't need scaling to remain effective, B) you'll always want to cast once a day and C) you probably don't want to cast more than once a day.
I don't agree with point B on this criteria.


meaning you're not getting the maximum use out of your Feat.

That's only true because the ritual feat is a more efficient way to get FF. But since OP doesn't want to get ritual caster, Find familiar is effective enough.

[opaopajr]

I would likely choose Cleric just for Guidance or Sacred Flame. From there I would look hard at Sanctuary or Shield of Faith. :smallcool:

That said, yeah, sure Find Familiar is a top choice. :smallannoyed: Whee, WotC is like the Magic-Users' Giving Tree...

[JellyPooga]

I think you overrate mage armor and underrate find familiar spell by far.

I'm not comparing Mage Armour and Find Familiar, per se, rather I'm using them as examples of the kind of spell you want for MI. I ageee that Find Familiar is a better spell, but because of the criteria of the MI Feat (i.e. it's a non-scaling spell slot thar you can use 1/day for a specific spell only), you really want to be able to make the most of it. Mage Armour, as a long duration spell that you'll probably want to cast on most days and even if you don't need to, you do gain some benefit from doing so regardless. For the purpose of MI, Mage Armour is the better choice, because assuming you want both spells, you're better off sourcing Find Familiar from a less restrictive, more flexible ability. If you don't want Mage Armour, then there are other spells that are better suited for that MI pick because Find Familiar is not typically a spell you'll be casting on a regular basis.

To make an analogy. What is better? A spell that you can cast every day that gives you 5 silver pieces, or one that you can only cast when your broke, but it gives you 10 gold?


I don't agree with point B on this criteria.

Why not? Assuming you want to make the most of your Feat, then you'll want to use the granted spell and slot as often as possible. Which is once per day. Every day you don't use that spell is a day you're wasting the potential of the Feat.


That's only true because the ritual feat is a more efficient way to get FF. But since OP doesn't want to get ritual caster, Find familiar is effective enough.

Then it's true. Other considerations are irrelevant. As I've said, I don't disagee that Find Familiar is a good spell, perhaps even one of the best 1st level spells due to its versatility, but I contend that it's a good pick for MI under the circumstance that you have access to that spell from another source (in the OPs case, Class, or more specifically, subclass). If the OP was asking about MI for a non-spellcaster, then I might be inclined to agree that Find Familiar would be a good choice, but as soon as he hits lvl.3, he can snag it with a Spell Known slot and cast it as often as necessary, in the mean-time using his spell slots for other spells.

It's about making the most efficient use of your resources and Find Familiar for the OP would be a waste of potential.

[Barny]

To make an analogy. What is better? A spell that you can cast every day that gives you 5 silver pieces, or one that you can only cast when your broke, but it gives you 10 gold?

I don't think you understand the concept of maximizing spell potientil in action economy. Best spells or maximizing a spell potential is not that you can cast the spell every day or every encounter/turn. Instead, some best spells are the ones that you don't need to spend your actions/spell slots/concentration at all, but still have the spell utilities most of time.

In your analogy, mage armor/shield is the spell that you spend your action resources to gain the spell effect with limited duration (let's say 10 gold/use daily), but find familiar is the one that you spend almost no action economy to gain constant spell utilities (like generating 1 sliver every minnute.)

[JellyPooga]

I don't think you understand the concept of maximizing spell potientil in action economy. Best spells or maximizing a spell potential is not that you can cast the spell every day or every encounter/turn. Instead, some best spells are the ones that you don't need to spend your actions/spell slots/concentration at all, but still have the spell utilities most of time.

In your analogy, mage armor/shield is the spell that you spend your action resources to gain the spell effect with limited duration (let's say 10 gold/use daily), but find familiar is the one that you spend almost no action economy to gain constant spell utilities (like generating 1 sliver every minnute.)

Your MI spell choice isn't based on the action economy, but the resource economy. Yeah, FF is a great use of action economy, but the resource cost is low. You could buy a scroll of Find Familiar, or take it as a Spell Known and enjoy largely the same Action Economy as if you'd chosen it with Magic Initiate and you wouldn't have wasted the potential of one of your rarest resources (i.e. an ASI/Feat). On the other foot, I think we can agree that a scroll of Shield would be, comparatively, a colossal waste of gold.

Put it this way; would you rather have an additional spell slot every day, or an additonal one per week? With FF, you're restricting yourself to using that resource (that spell slot) less often. It's not about how good the spell is, so much as how often you'll need to use it.

[GoodmanDL]

From a character standpoint, what fits your concept? Shield is a spell you'd most need if you found yourself surrounded. If you skulking in the shadows sneakily using illusions...you might see it as your panic button spell. Or you might not want a panic button spell because "I'm surrounded by 10 hostile bruisers" is something you NEVER plan for facing. Are you a "wade into the mob" kind of person?

Setting optimal choice aside, what is your character about? The guy who conjured a magic friend/assistant? A panic button shield? Something with utility?

[Barny]

You could buy a scroll of Find Familiar, or take it as a Spell Known and enjoy largely the same Action Economy as if you'd chosen it with Magic Initiate and you wouldn't have wasted the potential of one of your rarest resources (i.e. an ASI/Feat). On the other foot, I think we can agree that a scroll of Shield would be, comparatively, a colossal waste of gold.


How can you use a scroll of FF or shield if the spell is not in your class spell list?

In DMG RAW: “ ...if the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use [it]. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible...”.

So if you didn’t pick up FF/shield from Feats or class spell learned list, you cannot cast it with spell scroll.

[Chronos]

Then the question is just what, exactly, counts as an arcane trickster's "class spell list". Is their spell list all wizard illusion and enchantment spells? All wizard spells, because they can get a few from any school? All illusions and enchantments, plus whatever specific other spells they choose? Any of the above, but only up to 4th level? No spells at all, because they don't have their own spell list, but just crib off of another class's spell list? Some of those interpretations will let you use a scroll of Find Familiar, while others won't.

[JellyPooga]

How can you use a scroll of FF or shield if the spell is not in your class spell list?

In DMG RAW: “ ...if the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use [it]. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible...”.

So if you didn’t pick up FF/shield from Feats or class spell learned list, you cannot cast it with spell scroll.

Chronos answered your question, so I won't repeat it, but I have to wonder if you're intentionally ignoring the point I'm making about Magic Initiate and the opportunity cost of the spell slot it offers. I'll say it again, I'm not saying Find Familiar isn't a great spell, nor that Mage Armour is better than it in a vacuum and I agree that if you only had the opportunity to choose one spell and no other, that Find Familiar is a really good choice. For the OP, though, this is not the case. The OP does have the opportunity to snag Find Familiar from another, more versatile, source and that makes it a questionable choice for his Magic Initiate slot.

[Barny]

Then the question is just what, exactly, counts as an arcane trickster's "class spell list".

Although it might be up to dm’s interpretation, I think it would be op / unbalanced to cast scrolls of any unlearned spells within class spell list.

For example, can a 1 cleric/ 19 wizard cast any lvl9 cleric spells via scrolls? Just because he has access to cleric spell list? Then this lvl1 cleric dip is too op to be balanced.

[nickl_2000]

Although it might be up to dm’s interpretation, I think it would be op / unbalanced to cast scrolls of any unlearned spells within class spell list.

For example, can a 1 cleric/ 19 wizard cast any lvl9 cleric spells via scrolls? Just because he has access to cleric spell list? Then this lvl1 cleric dip is too op to be balanced.

There are rules to address this

“If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your Spellcasting Ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.”




And to others, yes I am still paying attention :)

[Barny]

There are rules to address this

Wow, then lore bard multiclass with sorcerer dip can take most benefit from this rule to cast high lvl sorcerer spells from scrolls.

[Chronos]

Certainly, a sorcerer can use a scroll of a sorcerer spell, even if it happens not to be one that they know.

[Barny]

but I have to wonder if you're intentionally ignoring the point I'm making about Magic Initiate and the opportunity cost of the spell slot it offers. I'll say it again, I'm not saying Find Familiar isn't a great spell, nor that Mage Armour is better than it in a vacuum and I agree that if you only had the opportunity to choose one spell and no other, that Find Familiar is a really good choice. For the OP, though, this is not the case. The OP does have the opportunity to snag Find Familiar from another, more versatile, source and that makes it a questionable choice for his Magic Initiate slot.

I never deny your point that extra daily use of MI is helpful. It's also vaild that you can pick up shield from MI and learn FF @lvl3, to achieve the better utilities vs picking up FF from lvl1 MI and learn shield @lvl3. I don't think it's a good idea to get FF from lvl1 scroll because scroll is costly in low lvls and familiar can die easily by 1-shot in any AOE or range atk.

If we stay on this topic as lvl1 rogue with MI, then FF is no-brainer answer for me.
If we need to plan lvl20 AT rogue, then MI with shield @lvl1 and learning FF @lvl3 might be better.
If we plan for the whole party, where has no druid ally, then MI to pick up goodberry @lvl1 is top answer from me.
Because 1) we can pick up shield/FF @3/4 AT level; 2) familiar owl is the super life saver to feed berries to any fallen party allies; 3) barries can help the party to survive in the hardest environment, e.g. being traped in a place without food for weeks. 4) gudiance is one of the best cantrip in game.

Anyway, it's all up to PC's playstyle and preference.

[JellyPooga]

Wow, then lore bard multiclass with sorcerer dip can take most benefit from this rule to cast high lvl sorcerer spells from scrolls.

The best scroll user is a lvl.10 Thief Rogue with Expertise in Arcana (or proficiency and high enough Int). Can use any scroll, from any list, without any chance of failure. UMD+Reliable Talent=can always hit DC:19. Granted they can't use any scrolls st all until lvl.9, but just sayin'.

I would tend to agree that going off-piste and using MI to get something like Goodberry and Guidance from the Druid list is where I'd go with it, but as you say, that's down to the OP to decide whether they want to stay in the realms of the arcane and whether they want to be able to use their refular spell slots to cast the spell they knoe from MI. It's also important to note that going outside of the Wizard list means investing at least 13 in the relevant casting stat (Wis or Cha), which their character may or may not have. That said, on the topic of non-Wizard spell options;

- Bard: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion + Healing Word
- Druid: Guidance, [whatever] + Goodberry
- Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion + Hex

Are all pretty solid MI options, though there are plenty of spells that probably deserve honourable mentions; Longstrider and Fog Cloud would be two of mine.

[Barny]

It's also important to note that going outside of the Wizard list means investing at least 13 in the relevant casting stat (Wis or Cha), which their character may or may not have. That said, on the topic of non-Wizard spell options;

- Bard: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion + Healing Word
- Druid: Guidance, [whatever] + Goodberry
- Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion + Hex

Are all pretty solid MI options, though there are plenty of spells that probably deserve honourable mentions; Longstrider and Fog Cloud would be two of mine.

Why do we need 13 in relevant casting ability to pick non-wizard:MI? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall MI has any prerequisites to pick up spells from other class lists.

For other MI options, I don't consider Bard/Warlock are good options even with 13 Cha, because Druid/Cleric:MI (gudiance/mending/shape water/thaumaturgy + goodberry/bless/shield of faith) are better choices even with 10 Wis.

[Arkhios]

The best scroll user is a lvl.13 Thief Rogue with Expertise in Arcana (or proficiency and high enough Int). Can use any scroll, from any list, without any chance of failure. UMD+Reliable Talent=can always hit DC:19. Granted they can't use any scrolls st all until lvl.13, but just sayin'.

Arcana checks apply on scrolls only when you try to copy a spell from a scroll into your spellbook. Expertise and/or Reliable Talent in Intelligence (Arcana) checks do not affect your chances regarding casting spells from Scrolls, with or without Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device simply lets you cast spells from scrolls as if those spells were on your (albeit non-existent) spell list, because the feature simply makes "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."

Regarding the Use Magic Device for Thief subclass feature, they don't get it until 13th, and can't use scrolls at all until then. (Fixed for you)


Why do we need 13 in relevant casting ability to pick non-wizard:MI? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall MI has any prerequisites to pick up spells from other class lists.

You're right. Magic Initiate doesn't have any prerequisite minimum ability scores whatsoever.

[GoodmanDL]

That said, on the topic of non-Wizard spell options;

- Bard: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion + Healing Word
- Druid: Guidance, [whatever] + Goodberry
- Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion + Hex

If you are playing an Arcane Trickster, you probably have a good Dex score, proficiency with shortbows, and Sneak Attack dice. You don't really need to take a ranged attack cantrip keyed off a secondary or tertiary stat and which doesn't let you use sneak attack. Utility cantrips are far more useful.

[nickl_2000]

The best scroll user is a lvl.10 Thief Rogue with Expertise in Arcana (or proficiency and high enough Int). Can use any scroll, from any list, without any chance of failure. UMD+Reliable Talent=can always hit DC:19. Granted they can't use any scrolls st all until lvl.9, but just sayin'.

I would tend to agree that going off-piste and using MI to get something like Goodberry and Guidance from the Druid list is where I'd go with it, but as you say, that's down to the OP to decide whether they want to stay in the realms of the arcane and whether they want to be able to use their refular spell slots to cast the spell they knoe from MI. It's also important to note that going outside of the Wizard list means investing at least 13 in the relevant casting stat (Wis or Cha), which their character may or may not have. That said, on the topic of non-Wizard spell options;

- Bard: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion + Healing Word
- Druid: Guidance, [whatever] + Goodberry
- Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion + Hex

Are all pretty solid MI options, though there are plenty of spells that probably deserve honourable mentions; Longstrider and Fog Cloud would be two of mine.


If you are playing an Arcane Trickster, you probably have a good Dex score, proficiency with shortbows, and Sneak Attack dice. You don't really need to take a ranged attack cantrip keyed off a secondary or tertiary stat and which doesn't let you use sneak attack. Utility cantrips are far more useful.

Yup, this. The character doesn't have a good enough Wisdom or Charisma to look at Warlock/Cleric/Druid/Bard/Sorcerer cantrips that use the mod. Plus, why would I need a ranged attack as a rogue who is going to do much better with a weapon that allows sneak attack.

Aside from that I can explain the reasons on others.
-Guidance will be covered by the cleric in the party
-Healing word will be covered by the Cleric and Divine Soul/Paladin
-It's a city adventure, so the food from goodberry isn't as necessary.
-I considered warlock for Minor Illusion/BB/Hex. It's not a bad way to go, but I like wanted my minor illusions to have a high check DC.


Overall they are all very good choices for Magic Initiate. Just not for me and this character :smallbiggrin:

[Odessa333]

It's super dependent on you, the party, and the DM. I've never been in a game where a familiar could use use 'help' for every attack. If your DM allows this, find familiar is essentially free advantage (and sneak attack) and is totally worth your pick. If your party doesn't do much scouting, having an owl to scout isn't a big help. If you plan on fighting on the front lines often, your AC becomes a bigger factor. Etc, etc.

In short, if your game allows familiars to give 'help' easily, find familiar. If you scout often and want the aid/story flavor, find familiar. If those situations don't apply (and you don't plan on getting medium armor) pick up mage armor with the feat, and shield with your arcane trickster level; it's the most AC for your picks, and lets you cast shield more often. You also avoid armor for easy disguises / quick changes if that matters. Shield is great, but getting it from magic initiate only lets you cast it once, and you will want it more than once.

As another suggestion, if focusing on defensive spells (and allowed) would be absorb elements. Element damage isn't as common, and as a rogue you will eventually be able to 'evade' most of the big spells, but having a backup once a day doesn't hurt.

[zinycor]

Have you checked the artificer spell list? It would use int just like your main casting stat and has access to some spells you might want (Faerie fire would be my pick)

[molean]

Dismissing Ritual spell caster as a option is really hamstinging you. There are plenty of ways you can work it into whatever story. A scroll of find familiar doesn't help if your familiar gets killed, and a squishy mouse can easily get killed depending on the GM.

You know, if you just want a smart loyal mouse pet, you could just roleplay it in. If you aren't seeing through its eyes or using it for battle, it's just flavor and you should be able to do as you like. Nothing to stop you from calling it a familiar, just don't use the familiar specials.

As far as good nonillusion/enchantment magics for an Arcane Trickster to get, it really depends on who else is in your party. Fog, grease, blindness/deafness, misty step and haste for example, are all good options.

[nickl_2000]

Thanks all. I really appreciate all the thoughts, opinion, and ideas (and the slightly off topic tangents were pretty interesting too). I am pretty sure I will just go with Find Familiar, it may not be the perfect choice, but it isn't a bad one and it is really fitting to the character/personality I have running around through my head.

[JellyPooga]

Arcana checks apply on scrolls only when you try to copy a spell from a scroll into your spellbook. Expertise and/or Reliable Talent in Intelligence (Arcana) checks do not affect your chances regarding casting spells from Scrolls, with or without Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device simply lets you cast spells from scrolls as if those spells were on your (albeit non-existent) spell list, because the feature simply makes "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."

Regarding the Use Magic Device for Thief subclass feature, they don't get it until 13th, and can't use scrolls at all until then. (Fixed for you)

You're right. Magic Initiate doesn't have any prerequisite minimum ability scores whatsoever.

Heh. Looks like I got my 13's all mixed up! I must have been thinking of Ritual Casters Int/Wis 13 requisite and confusing it with multiclassing prereq's. I stand corrected on that as well as the level of UMD (I always forget that Stealth feature Thief gets at 9th...it's too damn sneaky!) and that it allows you to ignore level req's too. The point still stands that a Thief Rogue with UMD is the best scroll user (even if I did mess up on the details!).

I agree that taking an attack cantrip on a Rogue can feel a bit useless and on top of that it could make you more MAD (though Rogues are often relatively SAD, so this is a small consideration), but there are some mitigating factors to doing so:

1) You might not always have a ranged weapon, for a variety of reasons; having an infallible (outside of an AMF) back-up is handy.

2) Not all attack cantrips require an attack roll. Vicious Mockery gives you the option of targeting Wis Saves instead, for example. This can sometimes be invaluable against foes with high AC.

3) Not all attack cantrip effects are damage. Going straight back to Vicious Mockery as the go-to example, imposing that Disadvantage on the next attack roll (or whatever other rider effects a cantrip might have, whether or not they require an attack roll) may be more valuable than straight damage.

I fully admit that these are all pretty situational and in general you'll probably want to be Sneak Attacking; it is, after all, what you do best as a Rogue (arguably). That said, the versatility that taking an attack cantrip offers should not be underestimated.

[GoodmanDL]

there are some mitigating factors to doing so:

1) You might not always have a ranged weapon

2) Not all attack cantrips require an attack roll. Vicious Mockery gives you the option of targeting Wis Saves instead, for example. This can sometimes be invaluable against foes with high AC.

3) Not all attack cantrip effects are damage. Going straight back to Vicious Mockery as the go-to example, imposing that Disadvantage on the next attack roll may be more valuable than straight damage.

I fully admit that these are all pretty situational and in general you'll probably want to be Sneak Attacking; it is, after all, what you do best as a Rogue (arguably). That said, the versatility that taking an attack cantrip offers should not be underestimated.

There are cases. I'd counter that Vicious Mockery does poor damage and you'll have a low DC, so you're probably still better off with an attack roll even against a high AC target. If you are concerned about damage output. At higher level, you are probably better just (a) taking the Dodge action or (b) using one of your higher-level Arcane Trickster spells if you want to debuff or just nto get hit.

It's a little different if you are playing a multiclass Arcane Trickster/Bard, where you have less SA dice, a higher CHA, and versatility/skillmonkey is more your concept. Most parties look to a single-class rogue to lean more into damage dealing.