Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?

[newguydude1]

To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell."


"A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper"


"Craft: Hammers ring on anvils, saws hum through wood, and kraken-ink quills scratch on half-petrified calf vellum at your affiliation’s headquarters."


Pages (100) Weight Hardness Hit Points Cost
Parchment 2 lb. +0 1 10 gp
Paper, linen 2 lb. +0 2 20 gp
Vellum 2 lb. +0 3 50 gp
Bone or ivory 4 lb. +0 4 100 gp
Metal foil 20 lb. +1 8 500 gp

So lets say i want to create a 100gp scroll.
I need choice writing materials which is paper, pen, and ink, that costs a total of 100gp.
According to PHBII, you can use kraken ink and half petrified calf vellum with a choice quill to create a scroll.

But can it be other stuff?
Illusory Script, a spell, requires lead based ink costing 50gp.
A vellum spellbook according to Complete Arcane costs 50gp for 100 pages. That means "fine vellum" costs 0.5gp per page.

So can I use lead based ink and vellum and a custom gold inkpen worth 49.5gp to create the 100gp scroll? Or does it have to be kraken ink and half petrified calf vellum?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The exact, presumably specific materials used in the creation of any magic item are deliberately abstracted to save both space in the books and headache at the table.

The cost is set by the spell(s) contained within the scroll rather than the ink, vellum, and quill's material or quality. A 100gp scroll would contain some combination of level 0 and 1 spells at the costs of 12.5 and 25gp each, respectively.

Scribing such a scroll costs half as much in abstracted raw materials as well as 1/25 of that value in xp. The only way to adjust those costs downward is to take certain feats that explicitly reduce magic item crafting costs.

The cost actually increases with the caster level of the spells. The given values are the presumed minimums.

[newguydude1]

I don't think you understood me.


The exact, presumably specific materials used in the creation of any magic item are deliberately abstracted to save both space in the books and headache at the table.

I want to know if I have to use kraken ink or if I can use any ink.


The cost is set by the spell(s) contained within the scroll rather than the ink, vellum, and quill's material or quality. A 100gp scroll would contain some combination of level 0 and 1 spells at the costs of 12.5 and 25gp each, respectively.

Scribing such a scroll costs half as much in abstracted raw materials as well as 1/25 of that value in xp. The only way to adjust those costs downward is to take certain feats that explicitly reduce magic item crafting costs.

The cost actually increases with the caster level of the spells. The given values are the presumed minimums.

I know this. I'm saying if a scroll costs 100gp to make, so its market price is 200gp, can i use lead ink, fine vellum, and a gold inkpen to create it? Or do I have to use kraken ink and petrified calf vellum?

[Hellpyre]

Kelb underatood you. He was saying that exact materials may be required, but what they are specifically is left undefined so that DMs and/or PCs have room to fluff as they desire. The real cost is a certain gp amount of items which are consumed. The Scribe Spell feat does not prescribe a specific material.

[newguydude1]

Kelb underatood you. He was saying that exact materials may be required, but what they are specifically is left undefined so that DMs and/or PCs have room to fluff as they desire. The real cost is a certain gp amount of items which are consumed. The Scribe Spell feat does not prescribe a specific material.

I'm wondering by RAW, because they don't specify specific material, can you use any material whose sum is the total cost?

I ask because I want to make the materials myself using craft check from things I find in wild. Kill calf, turn its skin into vellum, find lead, make ink, then make a really high quality artsy inkpen.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think you understood me.

I think you're the one who's misunderstood. The rules don't explicitly say. They very deliberately don't, in fact. Only your GM can answer what the specific materials are if, for whatever reason, he decides not to leave well enough alone. If you happen to have the ink of a kraken and some fine vellum sheets, you can ask your GM if you can subtract their cost from the materials necessary but there are no written rules to suggest that either would or wouldn't be the case.

In any case, you certainly can't scribe the scroll for less than values associated with the magic unless your GM explicitly houserules to the contrary. Whatever the specific ink, sheet, and quill you use; a 1st level scroll costs 12.5gp in raw material and 1 xp to scribe.

[Crake]

I don't think you understood me.



I want to know if I have to use kraken ink or if I can use any ink.

Kelb understood you, his point was that you can use any ink you want, becuase the materials are left ambiguous on purpose. To scribe a 100gp scroll, you merely need to consume 50gp of "scroll scribing reagents", and spend 2 xp. What exactly the scroll scribing reagents are comprised of is largely just flavourful and ultimately irrelevant.

As an aside, the rules you linked from complete arcane aren't for scribing scrolls, they're for creating more durable spellbooks.


I'm wondering by RAW, because they don't specify specific material, can you use any material whose sum is the total cost?

I ask because I want to make the materials myself using craft check from things I find in wild. Kill calf, turn its skin into vellum, find lead, make ink, then make a really high quality artsy inkpen.

It would be up to your DM to determine if the things you craft are of a high enough quality. You may produce a large quantity of low quality materials who's value comes out to 50gp, but the DM may deem that they're, at best, simply usable for standard bookeeping. If I were the DM, I would require at least DC20 (masterwork quality) on the craft checks when making the vellum and ink.

[newguydude1]

I think you're the one who's misunderstood. The rules don't explicitly say. They very deliberately don't, in fact. Only your GM can answer what the specific materials are if, for whatever reason, he decides not to leave well enough alone. If you happen to have the ink of a kraken and some fine vellum sheets, you can ask your GM if you can subtract their cost from the materials necessary but there are no written rules to suggest that either would or wouldn't be the case.

In any case, you certainly can't scribe the scroll for less than values associated with the magic unless your GM explicitly houserules to the contrary. Whatever the specific ink, sheet, and quill you use; a 1st level scroll costs 12.5gp in raw material and 1 xp to scribe.

But scrolls don't require specific materials like potion ingredients. I think rules say I can use kraken ink or lead ink, it doesn't matter as long as total cost is the same. I think.

Does scroll of magic missile require a specific type of ink? or just any high quality ink? If it's the latter then i can do what I want. If it's the former then i can't. I think the rules is saying it's the latter right? any choice writing material, doesn't matter what it's made from.

[newguydude1]

Kelb understood you, his point was that you can use any ink you want, becuase the materials are left ambiguous on purpose. To scribe a 100gp scroll, you merely need to consume 50gp of "scroll scribing reagents", and spend 2 xp. What exactly the scroll scribing reagents are comprised of is largely just flavourful and ultimately irrelevant.

Yeah that's what I wanted to hear. Potions need specific ingredients that isn't said. Crafting weapons also specific magic ingredients that isn't said. But with scrolls I think it doesn't matter what the materials are as long as they all add up to scroll cost.


As an aside, the rules you linked from complete arcane aren't for scribing scrolls, they're for creating more durable spellbooks.

No, it's just that one quote to find out how much fine vellum costs. Everything else is scrolls.


It would be up to your DM to determine if the things you craft are of a high enough quality. You may produce a large quantity of low quality materials who's value comes out to 50gp, but the DM may deem that they're, at best, simply usable for standard bookeeping. If I were the DM, I would require at least DC20 (masterwork quality) on the craft checks when making the vellum and ink.

Of course I can craft it. I am PC, master crafter. Best crafter in world after a few levels.

[Crake]

But scrolls don't require specific materials like potion ingredients. I think rules say I can use kraken ink or lead ink, it doesn't matter as long as total cost is the same. I think.

Does scroll of magic missile require a specific type of ink? or just any high quality ink? If it's the latter then i can do what I want. If it's the former then i can't. I think the rules is saying it's the latter right? any choice writing material, doesn't matter what it's made from.

Any high quality ink. The question is, are you capable of making high quality ink? DC20 is the baseline craft DC for masterwork quality items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm wondering by RAW, because they don't specify specific material, can you use any material whose sum is the total cost?

I ask because I want to make the materials myself using craft check from things I find in wild. Kill calf, turn its skin into vellum, find lead, make ink, then make a really high quality artsy inkpen.

That's entirely and explicitly up to your GM. I wouldn't get my hopes up. That's an -awful- lot of game time to spend on something you're presumably going to be doing fairly often. Given the costs associated, I also very seriously doubt that the design intent was for the material to be relatively mundane. You said yourself something about kraken ink; not exactly easily harvested.

If I were your GM, I'd only go with this plan as a mcguffin style fetch quest for a unique, plot-critical, homebrew spell that -must- be cast from a scroll to function correctly.

[newguydude1]

That's entirely and explicitly up to your GM. I wouldn't get my hopes up. That's an -awful- lot of game time to spend on something you're presumably going to be doing fairly often. Given the costs associated, I also very seriously doubt that the design intent was for the material to be relatively mundane. You said yourself something about kraken ink; not exactly easily harvested.

If I were your GM, I'd only go with this plan as a mcguffin style fetch quest for a unique, plot-critical, homebrew spell that -must- be cast from a scroll to function correctly.

Kraken ink is not exactly easily harvested, but lead based ink is 50gp so expensive enough no? It's choice and mundane. Same with inkpen and paper.

[Crake]

Yeah that's what I wanted to hear. Potions need specific ingredients that isn't said. Crafting weapons also specific magic ingredients that isn't said. But with scrolls I think it doesn't matter what the materials are as long as they all add up to scroll cost.

No magical item crafting in 3.5 has specific ingredients, beyond those that the DM decides to specify. It's an intentional design choice by the developers to make magic item crafting less fiddly.

You also realise the inherent contradiction in "specific ingredients" and "that isn't said", right? If the specific ingredients aren't said, then they aren't specific ingredients.


No, it's just that one quote to find out how much fine vellum costs. Everything else is scrolls.

The prices listed are for 100 pages of vellum, not a single sheet.


Of course I can craft it. I am PC, master crafter. Best crafter in world after a few levels.

Sure, if you're happy to put the skill ranks into craft, just making sure.

[newguydude1]

The prices listed are for 100 pages of vellum, not a single sheet.

100 = 50gp
50gp / 100 = 0.5gp


No magical item crafting in 3.5 has specific ingredients, beyond those that the DM decides to specify. It's an intentional design choice by the developers to make magic item crafting less fiddly.

You also realise the inherent contradiction in "specific ingredients" and "that isn't said", right? If the specific ingredients aren't said, then they aren't specific ingredients.

That's what makes it unobtainable outside shop. I hate this. But scrolls, I think I can get it without shop.

[Crake]

Kraken ink is not exactly easily harvested, but lead based ink is 50gp so expensive enough no? It's choice and mundane. Same with inkpen and paper.

"Lead based ink" covers a huge band of quality levels. The same as having "water based paints", you can buy it for $2 a bucket, or you can pay $10 for a small tube of water-based paint paste. Likewise, you can pay 50gp for a bucket of low quality lead based ink, or 50gp for an 8 oz vial of high quality lead based ink. 50gp is simply the budget.

[newguydude1]

"Lead based ink" covers a huge band of quality levels. The same as having "water based paints", you can buy it for $2 a bucket, or you can pay $10 for a small tube of water-based paint paste. Likewise, you can pay 50gp for a bucket of low quality lead based ink, or 50gp for an 8 oz vial of high quality lead based ink. 50gp is simply the budget.

Why does this matter in this discussion? We all know it has to be high quality ink. Lead based means I can make it out of rocks. Rocks are easier than finding kraken. 50gp of high quality lead based ink.

[Crake]

100 = 50gp
50gp / 100 = 0.5gp

Sure, but 0.5gp doesn't exactly cover much of the 50gp crafting materials to make a 100gp scroll. And just wait until you need to make a 1000gp scroll.


That's what makes it unobtainable outside shop. I hate this. But scrolls, I think I can get it without shop.

Ultimately, the only one who you can work this out with is the DM, but keep in mind that, assuming you need to hit craft DC20 for the ink quality to be good enough, and lets assume your craft check is 25 to make things nice and rounded, it would take you a whole week to craft 50gp worth of high quality lead ink. Now, while that may seem reasonable right now, when you're crafting a 1000gp scroll, and you need 500gp worth of ink, and that takes you 10 weeks to craft, suddenly, is it really worth your time and effort?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm wondering by RAW, because they don't specify specific material, can you use any material whose sum is the total cost?

I ask because I want to make the materials myself using craft check from things I find in wild. Kill calf, turn its skin into vellum, find lead, make ink, then make a really high quality artsy inkpen.


100 = 50gp
50gp / 100 = 0.5gp



That's what makes it unobtainable outside shop. I hate this. But scrolls, I think I can get it without shop.

You're missing the point, my dude.

We -cannot- answer your question with regard to the lead based ink from illusory script except to say how we would rule it at our own tables if we're GMing.

Again, I personally wouldn't allow it. I'm not dedicating that kind of table time just so you can save chump-change when I'm already handing out standard treasure.

[Crake]

Why does this matter in this discussion? We all know it has to be high quality ink. Lead based means I can make it out of rocks. Rocks are easier than finding kraken. 50gp of high quality lead based ink.

I mean, lead isn't just "rocks". You still need to prospect and find a lead seam, mine it, purify it, and then craft the ink. That's not to mention risking lead poisoning from all the handling of lead that you're doing. Or... you can just buy the lead ink from the profits you make while adventuring in that same period of time.

[magicalmagicman]

You're missing the point, my dude.

We -cannot- answer your question with regard to the lead based ink from illusory script except to say how we would rule it at our own tables if we're GMing.

Again, I personally wouldn't allow it. I'm not dedicating that kind of table time just so you can save chump-change when I'm already handing out standard treasure.

I disagree. I think the OP did a fantastic job here.

He has shown you just need expensive writing materials, not specific writing materials. Which means by RAW he is right, any expensive high quality writing material will suffice. You don't need to hash anything out with a DM.


Ultimately, the only one who you can work this out with is the DM, but keep in mind that, assuming you need to hit craft DC20 for the ink quality to be good enough, and lets assume your craft check is 25 to make things nice and rounded, it would take you a whole week to craft 50gp worth of high quality lead ink. Now, while that may seem reasonable right now, when you're crafting a 1000gp scroll, and you need 500gp worth of ink, and that takes you 10 weeks to craft, suddenly, is it really worth your time and effort?

I think it's obvious he's gonna use fabricate. And if the scroll is going to be cast immediately and costs under 1000gp he can use major creation to create the scroll materials since we've established the materials are mundane.

[newguydude1]

I think the OP did a fantastic job here.

Really? Thank you.


I think it's obvious he's gonna use fabricate. And if the scroll is going to be cast immediately and costs under 1000gp he can use major creation to create the scroll materials since we've established the materials are mundane.

I was gonna use fabricate but you can use major creation too? Wow! I did not know this! Are you sure?

[magicalmagicman]

I was gonna use fabricate but you can use major creation too? Wow! I did not know this! Are you sure?

Yes.

You can make any mundane item. High quality ones require craft checks, though I'm pretty sure you don't need to craft paper or ink since it's not a complex item. If you want an expensive inkpen then you need a craft check for that.

You can't use major creation for material components, but it says nothing about crafting materials and you're not using it for material components.

So yeah, if your major creation lasts at least 9 hours, you're good. 8 hours to create the thing, and 1 hour window to cast the thing. Otherwise POOF it disappears.

You can't make Kraken ink because that's not a mineral or plant though.

[Hellpyre]

I was gonna use fabricate but you can use major creation too? Wow! I did not know this! Are you sure?

You can't because a scroll is a magic item, even if the materials in its creation are mundane until crafting. Or rather, you can make a scroll, but it can't contain a spell.

[magicalmagicman]

You can't because a scroll is a magic item, even if the materials in its creation are mundane until crafting. Or rather, you can make a scroll, but it can't contain a spell.

My bad, I meant to say you can create the crafting materials of the scroll with major creation and use it to create your scroll by expending the spell and your xp.

So to clarify, you can't make a scroll, but you can make everything you need to make a scroll.

[newguydude1]

You can't because a scroll is a magic item, even if the materials in its creation are mundane until crafting. Or rather, you can make a scroll, but it can't contain a spell.

Good guy, catch everyone's mistake.


My bad, I meant to say you can create the crafting materials of the scroll with major creation and use it to create your scroll by expending the spell and your xp.

So to clarify, you can't make a scroll, but you can make everything you need to make a scroll.

Awesome! With persistent and extend spell I bet I can use major creation to create materials for a more expensive scroll! Like 2000gp or lower scroll!

[Psyren]

The cost actually increases with the caster level of the spells. The given values are the presumed minimums.

If you want the scribing materials to matter then this is a good way to do it. The basic scroll costs would represent readily available/mass-produced (if still decent quality) ink and parchment. But if you want a heightened scroll instead, or one with some other metamagic baked in, maybe you need a more exotic ink for that version - as well as the skin of a magical beast of some kind, or even a dragon. This keeps general item creation accessible (no need to call for a sidequest every time you want a few waterbreathing scrolls), but if you want to make more powerful versions then your GM might call for you to go on a mini-adventure or have some contacts.

This gets particularly cool in Pathfinder because you can craft metamagic scrolls/wands without needing the requisite metamagic feats, by increasing your crafting DC by 5 for each requirement (other than the item creation feat and the spell itself) that you don't meet, and increasing the crafting costs by the new spell level. This level increase makes the scrolls more expensive, which can then be represented by a more costly/exotic material. For example, you might rule that to create a Threnodic Deep Slumber scroll, the caster needs to mix crushed onyx into the ink with a value equal to the cost difference between crafting that and crafting a normal Deep Slumber scroll (i.e. an extra ~300 gp or so.)

[Crake]

So yeah, if your major creation lasts at least 9 hours, you're good. 8 hours to create the thing, and 1 hour window to cast the thing. Otherwise POOF it disappears.

Explain to me though, what is the point of this? You need to expend the spell slot to create the scroll, you've covered the material costs for free with major creation sure, so all you've done is waste 8 hours crafting, and limit yourself to a 1 hour window in which you could have just cast the spell normally anyway, so all you've done is limit yourself, and of course, lets not forget the extra xp cost you put on yourself. Oh, and of course, you wasted an extra spell slot on major creation. So you spent 2 spell slots, a bunch of xp, 8 hours of crafting, all to what, limit the time in which you can cast the spell from "any time today" to "1 hour after i finish crafting".

[Hellpyre]

Explain to me though, what is the point of this? You need to expend the spell slot to create the scroll, you've covered the material costs for free with major creation sure, so all you've done is waste 8 hours crafting, and limit yourself to a 1 hour window in which you could have just cast the spell normally anyway, so all you've done is limit yourself, and of course, lets not forget the extra xp cost you put on yourself. Oh, and of course, you wasted an extra spell slot on major creation. So you spent 2 spell slots, a bunch of xp, 8 hours of crafting, all to what, limit the time in which you can cast the spell from "any time today" to "1 hour after i finish crafting".

Pretty sure it would help an artificer, assuming they had access to major creation on a daily basis. Otherwise, search me, I don't know.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. I think the OP did a fantastic job here.

He has shown you just need expensive writing materials, not specific writing materials. Which means by RAW he is right, any expensive high quality writing material will suffice. You don't need to hash anything out with a DM.

Not so.


To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

The writing materials alone are not everything in the cost of scribing a spell otherwise they could not be subsumed into that larger category. Whatever else is needed is just as undefined as the writing materials themselves but you cannot say they are any more or less specific than the writing material. Frankly, the presumption that any writing materials will do is a very bold one. Just because the rules don't define the materials with specificity doen't mean anything will do.

This is just a "the rules don't say I can't" argument.


I think it's obvious he's gonna use fabricate. And if the scroll is going to be cast immediately and costs under 1000gp he can use major creation to create the scroll materials since we've established the materials are mundane.

Still takes a day to scribe the scroll. I also seem to recall crafting magic items require you not cast any spells on the same day you work on the item. If this trick works, it doen't do so until you're approaching epic levels becaue of the spell's duration.

[magicalmagicman]

Explain to me though, what is the point of this? You need to expend the spell slot to create the scroll, you've covered the material costs for free with major creation sure, so all you've done is waste 8 hours crafting, and limit yourself to a 1 hour window in which you could have just cast the spell normally anyway, so all you've done is limit yourself, and of course, lets not forget the extra xp cost you put on yourself. Oh, and of course, you wasted an extra spell slot on major creation. So you spent 2 spell slots, a bunch of xp, 8 hours of crafting, all to what, limit the time in which you can cast the spell from "any time today" to "1 hour after i finish crafting".

3 spell slots. Paper, Ink, and Inkpen. Inkpen must also be fresh, new, nad unused, which means one use only.
My DM likes to do Robinson Crusoe stuff so our party ends up shipwrecked in their underwear more often than we'd like.
I used this trick to create a scroll of wish which i used to create a construct or a scroll of simulacrum (since that 12 hour casting time is gonna make the scroll go poof before it fires).

If your DM doesn't screw you out of your wealth then all this trick does is save you some money if there's a high level spell you want to cast right now like teleport.

[Crake]

I also seem to recall crafting magic items require you not cast any spells on the same day you work on the item.

I don't believe such a rule exists.

[magicalmagicman]

This is just a "the rules don't say I can't" argument.

No, this is incorrect. If something requires a sword, it doesn't matter whether that sword is common, masterwork, magical, expensive, cheap, etc. You just need any sword. Likewise the rules are saying you just need any high quality writing supplies. It's not a "rules don't say I can't" argument.


The writing materials alone are not everything in the cost of scribing a spell otherwise they could not be subsumed into that larger category. Whatever else is needed is just as undefined as the writing materials themselves but you cannot say they are any more or less specific than the writing material. Frankly, the presumption that any writing materials will do is a very bold one. Just because the rules don't define the materials with specificity doen't mean anything will do.

There is no larger category. Subsumed = included.

"To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is included in the cost for scribing the scroll"

It just says that so you don't think you need pay extra for writing supplies, because writing supplies are included in the cost to scribe the scroll.

The item creation descriptions all list everything you need.


The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion

All you need here is level working surface, containers, source of heat, and ingredients. All of which are included in the potion cost. There is no "larger category" of materials we don't know about.


To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Once again, the word subsumed is used to say everything is included in the price. Not a "larger category".


Still takes a day to scribe the scroll. I also seem to recall crafting magic items require you not cast any spells on the same day you work on the item. If this trick works, it doen't do so until you're approaching epic levels becaue of the spell's duration.

First day is 8 hours. Second day is 24 hours. And there is no such rule about no casting spells on day of crafting. In fact the rules encourage crafting on the go.

[Powerdork]

I also seem to recall crafting magic items require you not cast any spells on the same day you work on the item.

Perhaps you mean the thing where spells you cast as part of most crafting actions are actually cast?


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

[Crake]

Perhaps you mean the thing where spells you cast as part of most crafting actions are actually cast?

That's not quite correct, the spell slot is merely expended. if the spell was actually cast, then scrolls that required multiple days of crafting, and had expensive material components, would expend those expensive material components once for each day of crafting, which is definitely not the case.