Which racial traits apply for a lycanthrope in hybrid or animal form?

[Wolfswift]

So a GM in our group came up with an idea to roll 3d6 in order and have us make characters around what we roll, but he said if it's much too low, he'd apply innkeeper rules and let us go again, I evidently opened 4 inns with terrible stat rolls before getting an 8 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 11 Int, 15 Wis, 9 Cha, which amounts to a 7 point buy. He also had us roll a randomized background using a book he has, it's not explicitly designed for Pathfinder or D&D, but just for making fantasy characters in general. It has some bonuses and some penalties. He assured me since my stat array was so low, he'd let me keep and use more of the bonuses I rolled in it. So after hitting every branch in the ugly tree on the way, he took pity and let my curse of lycanthropy I rolled not make me lose control or lose my mind. The manic-depressive insanity I rolled messed with my head enough.

Anyhow, I wasn't sure where I'd go with this character at the start, so we didn't settle on a race out of the gate. I liked the lycanthropy idea, but my low Str was gonna be an issue, but then I saw the entry "Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the base creature’s stats, a lycanthrope’s ability scores change when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are unchanged from the base creature’s form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher." That line about being able to use the animal's ability scores in place of my own gave me hope for this character, but then I got to thinking about if I'd be able to modify those stats at all.

I'll want to increase my Str and such as we go, but I think any racial Str boost would only affect my base 8 Str, not the animal's Str I'd be using in hybrid and animal forms, I also suspect any stat increase I'd take at 4th levels wouldn't affect it until it rose above the animal's Str, which would take some time. Enhancement bonuses should stack, but I don't know what else would. I also realized it seems like most racial bonuses wouldn't work in hybrid or animal forms. I do presume that the lycanthrope's ability score boosts would affect the animal stats. But I want people's opinions on if racial and other inherant stat boosts could be able to boost the animal's base stats in hybrid and animal form or if there's a way to increase those aside from enhancement?

[upho]

I'll want to increase my Str and such as we go, but I think any racial Str boost would only affect my base 8 Str, not the animal's Str I'd be using in hybrid and animal formsCorrect. None of the typically max +2 racial bonus your humanoid PC race gets to one or two ability scores, nor any -2 penalty imposed by your PC race, would affect the scores replaced by the animal's higher ones when you're in hybrid form.


I also suspect any stat increase I'd take at 4th levels wouldn't affect it until it rose above the animal's Str, which would take some time.No, your stats in all your three forms are affected by all stat bonuses and penalties except the racial ones you receive from your PC humanoid race. This is because only those racial bonuses and penalties come specifically from your race (which the template then alters), while all the other ones come from other sources (class levels/hd gained, magic items etc) and per default apply to any creature regardless of creature type or race.


Enhancement bonuses should stack, but I don't know what else would. I also realized it seems like most racial bonuses wouldn't work in hybrid or animal forms. I do presume that the lycanthrope's ability score boosts would affect the animal stats. But I want people's opinions on if racial and other inherant stat boosts could be able to boost the animal's base stats in hybrid and animal form or if there's a way to increase those aside from enhancement?Again, all stat bonuses and penalties except those you get from you humanoid PC race apply to your stats in all your three forms.

To be extra clear, lets say you've advanced to 8th level as a human weretiger. As a tiger (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/felines/cat-great/tiger/) has Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, and your rolled human stats are (assuming Int gets the +2 human racial bonus) Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 9, your resulting ability scores at 8th would be (assuming you've put your two level increases into Dex and Int):

Human form: Str 8, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 7

Hybrid and tiger forms: Str 25, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 7

Looks pretty darn decent for a Str based melee build, especially when considering you also have the pretty rare advantage of a Large base size in hybrid and tiger forms, a size increase which stacks with any temporary size increases (enlarge person etc). So from an optimization perspective, I think you could become great in a melee control combat role with a reach weapon, and probably even greater in a striker role without wielding a manufactured weapon, instead getting the most out of your many primary natural attacks and pounce ability. I'd first recommend a primalist bloodrager (put your level increases into Cha instead) for either role, and second barbarian, but this could honestly do well in any martial class or class combo. (That is of course assuming you aren't playing in some ridiculously high-power game or have the huge disadvantages of acquired lychanthropy.)

So if you have any power to choose your animal side, I highly recommend tiger or something similar. Meaning a Large size animal with many strong natural attacks and special attacks (especially pounce), abilities which typically are way more valuable than the animal's stats (at least the physical ones will be great regardless).

[Wolfswift]

Yeah, that's better than I thought then. I was originally thinking classic werewolf, but GM said I could be a weredragon, which got me hyped, but he said wyrmling only, which seem to have physical stats around or below 15. Pounce is pretty awesome, I might look at weretiger more srrongly. I guess my race will mostly be fluff, or possibly looking for what other racials work well. I'd almost wanna pick a cat race just to be able to play it off,like pretend it's a natural thing and not Lycanthropy.

Also, he's said no magic starting out, it's lose knowledge, he's gonna let us find stuff in ruins and retrain for free. But hea allowing third party stuff on a case by case basis and I jokingly asked about gourmand from d20pfsrd and he approved somehow. So I was mostly looking at that.

[upho]

Yeah, that's better than I thought then. I was originally thinking classic werewolf, but GM said I could be a weredragon, which got me hyped, but he said wyrmling only, which seem to have physical stats around or below 15.Whoa! Wait, just a sec there! A wyrmling can be very powerful, for many purposes probably at least on par with any Large animal I'd imagine your GM would allow.

Though a wyrmling won't be as strong specifically for highly offense-focused melee combat as for example a tiger or similar Large animal would, even a wyrmling is a friggin' true dragon, without comparison the most powerful creature type native to the material plane. This means it not only has more balanced and overall stronger abilities, but also that it comes with some substantial advantages which you won't find in any Small to Large size animal. Just take a careful look at for example a gold dragon wyrmling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/metallic-gold/gold-dragon-wyrmling), a CR 7 creature (as a comparison, the tiger is CR 4). Then consider that as a "gold werewyrmling" in hybrid form, at 1st level you'd have for example, assuming +1 bab (weretiger equivalents in blue):

Senses: darkvision 120 ft., blindsense (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Blindsight-and-Blindsense) 60 ft., low-light vision four times as far as a human and normal vision twice as far, scent
Senses: low-light vision twice as far as human, scent

+9 natural armor
+5 natural armor

Immune fire, paralysis (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Paralysis), sleep Weaknesses vulnerability (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Vulnerabilities-Ex-or-Su-) to cold
The tiger has neither any special defensive abilities or any weaknesses.

Speed 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 60 ft.
Speed 40 ft.

Melee bite +5 (1d8+6), 2 claws +5 (1d6+4)
Melee bite +8 (2d6+7 plus grab (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Grab-Ex-)), 2 claws +8 (1d8+7 plus grab (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Grab-Ex-))

Size Medium, Reach 5 ft.
Size Large, Reach 10 ft.

Special Attacks breath weapon (standard action 20-ft. cone, 2d10 fire damage, Ref vs DC 13 for half), weakening breath
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +8, 1d8+7 damage)

Str 19, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 12
Str 25, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 7 (+2 humanoid bonus to Int)

Judging by the above, from a practical optimization perspective, in most games I'd probably go for the dragon. That is partially because the dragon is more balanced and grants greater versatility, but mainly because while the dragon's senses, flight speed and great immunities are certainly very powerful, they tend to not draw as much attention or be regarded as disruptive or overpowered as very strong high damage offense like the tiger's often does. If you don't think this is a concern and you mostly want to play an absolute monster in combat who shreds one or more enemies to fine red mist every turn, you should definitely go for something like the tiger instead.

Speaking of, note that per the old existing rules for playing as a monster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/) (now replaced by the race creation rules), you would be treated as having as many levels as your monster CR. In this case, according to those rules you wouldn't be able able to enter the game before 5th level as a weretiger, or before 8th as a "gold werewyrmling". So you and especially your GM should be aware that either of the above is way more powerful than what the game assumes a 1st level PC to be even in a pretty high-power game. If you haven't already, I strongly recommend you discuss this with your GM to make certain you both know what you're getting yourselves into, allowing your PC to start out a lot more powerful than the other PCs if those are closer to typical 1st level PCs.


Pounce is pretty awesome, I might look at weretiger more srrongly. I guess my race will mostly be fluff, or possibly looking for what other racials work well. I'd almost wanna pick a cat race just to be able to play it off,like pretend it's a natural thing and not Lycanthropy.Well, if 3PP stuff might be on the table and you'd like to play a weretiger, I suggest you take a look at the Tiger Catfolk (made by Dreamscarred Press, which generally makes higher quality content than Paizo):

The largest known catfolk, these powerful, broadshouldered variant are nearly mythical, their antisocialnature predisposing them to isolation. Without astructured society, and with no interest in contacting theoutside world, these massive beast-men are consideredcryptids and legends.

+2 Strength: Tiger catfolk are enormous and agile fortheir size, though perhaps less so than they wouldbe were they smaller. This racial trait replaces thenormal catfolk’s racial ability modifiers.
Large: Tiger catfolk are Large and take a –1 sizepenalty to AC and attack rolls, a –4 size penalty onstealth checks, and gain a +1 size bonusto their CMB and CMD. In addition, atiger catfolk’s large size gives them anatural reach of 10 ft. This replacesthe normal catfolk’s size.




Also, he's said no magic starting out, it's lose knowledge, he's gonna let us find stuff in ruins and retrain for free. But hea allowing third party stuff on a case by case basis and I jokingly asked about gourmand from d20pfsrd and he approved somehow. So I was mostly looking at that.Gah! :smalleek: What an utterly silly monstrosity of a class! :smallbiggrin:

I'm starting to suspect your GM is either planning for a very high powered and/or goofy game, or he has a very loose grip on balance and doesn't really know how to judge how powerful an option is... That said, of course you should play a gourmand if you think it would be fun. In case you do, you'll want to get as big as possible (for reach, CMB bonuses and being able to grab enemies of greater size) and you could get plenty of synergy out of having grab attacks with other natural attacks. Pounce is still great, but not as important for this type of more control focused class.

Oh, speaking of size and silliness, note that the above mentioned tiger catfolk is Large, which per the rules means you could combine the lycanthrope template with a Huge animal, in turn allowing you to start as Huge while in hybrid or animal form, and to become Gargantuan with enlarge person or similar...

[Wolfswift]

I'm not sure I want all the various special things dragons have, I liked the large/strong/pounce/grab thing tigers have going on though.

I don't know why he approved gourmand, I will have to talk to him about it. I asked about it jokingly. He's not going for a powerful game, he was looking to challenge us, which is why I'm afraid what might happen if I dominate as a hulking tiger literally eating everything for more power. I'll have to talk to him about level adjustment stuff and see what he says.

I did not know tiger catfolk was a race Dreamscarred Press made. I had to find that book and was surprised those existed but were not on d20pfsrd, it makes me curious what else is floating around out there. But no, I think tiger catfolk is a bit too on the nose for me, I mean, yeah it might could pass for not a were tiger in hybrid form pretty readily, I guess I could go it just for that, pretend it's a form of rage or something when I hulk out. But otherwise most everything it is would be subsumed by weretiger hybrid form. I will keep it in mind though.

I was mostly considering Aellar for the +Wisdom, +Perception, and wings that'll give me a fly speed later on, so I can go faster and avoid difficult terrain when pouncing.

But as far as becoming a huge lycanthrope, I think that might be too incredibly game breaking.