Heavy rogue build AKA the anti-rogue

[moonfly7]

So, rogues are traditionally sneaky, lightly armored, and rely on surprise and allies to fight. Or their the swashbuckler and use dexterity and fancy footwork to outmanuvere foes.
But I don't want to play a normal rogue, and recently, I came across a great idea: play a rogue with the mounted combatant feat. You get advantage, and there fore sneak attack, on anything smaller than your mount. But then I realized that your mount would probably count as an enemy to targets, so you should always get sneak damage.
So an idea formed: a rogue who rides a fully armored warhorse, clad himself in full plate, striking foes from atop his stead, and using a heavy crossbow as his principal ranged weapon.
So now I need a little help:
I need to aquire heavy armor proficiency, I would like a heavy crossbow, although I can make do with a normal bow, and I'd like any suggestions and help you can give, heres my parameters:
I don't want to multiclass. So no multiclassing. UA feats aren't allowed. And the heavy armor is non negotiable. Mounted combatant is also non negotiable.
I've considered going dwarf for heavy armor prof, but I'm not sure it's worth the loss of ability score increases.

[Sorinth]

Doesn't Mountain dwarf only get you Medium Armor?

Is there a reason Heavy Armor is a must? Thematically Half-Plate is not that different from Full Plate.

[stoutstien]

I've built a few heavy hitting rogues before. Mountain dwarf can pull it off with a little effort. With point buy you can start with a 16 14 16 10 12 8 and grab heavy armored and heavy armor master and go to town.

[Bobthewizard]

Variant human gets you moderately armored and +1 to STR and CON at level 1.

Mountain Dwarf gets you medium armor and +2 STR and CON at level 1 but no shield.

Since you can use STR but still need a finesse weapon for sneak attack, I'd probably go human so I could use a shield. If you don't want a shield, go mountain dwarf. Either way, though, you won't have both heavy armor and mounted combatant until level 8 on a straight rogue.

If you could multi class, you'd start fighter for heavy armor, variant human for mounted combatant, and then your character is online at level 2 with your first level of rogue. So it would be fighter 1/ rogue X.

[Teaguethebean]

I need to aquire heavy armor proficiency, I would like a heavy crossbow, although I can make do with a normal bow, and I'd like any suggestions and help you can give, heres my parameters:
I don't want to multiclass. So no multiclassing. UA feats aren't allowed. And the heavy armor is non negotiable. Mounted combatant is also non negotiable.

Is there a reason multiclassing is off the table? 1 level of fighter fixes a lot of the problems. Heavy armor, heavy crossbow and you could pick up the dueling style to keep up with a non mc rogue on damage while being far beyond them in defensive capabilities. Then at lv5 fighter1/rogue4 you can have mounted combatant and have all you want. Without a fighter dip it would take until lv8 to get what you want and rob you of 2 asi's and your racial features.

[Damon_Tor]

Half Plate + Medium Armor Master offers the same AC as full plate on a build with at least 16 dex (which you'll want anyway because you'll be making ranged attacks) plus it's cheaper to buy the armor and you don't have disadvantage on stealth checks when that becomes relevant.

Your best bet is Variant Human (+1 Dex, +1 Con) with Moderately Armored as your starting feat. Then Take Mounted Combatant at level 4, Medium Armor Master at level 8, then you can get your stats.

This is not going to be optimal, but you knew that going into it, but it should be reasonably functional.

If it has GOT to be heavy armor for some reason, trade out Heavily Armored for Medium Armor Master at level 8, but I think that's probably silly.

[Danielqueue1]

Mountain dwarf and a feat will get you heavy armor. Having the strength to use plate and a crossbowm means you will need both good strength and Dexterity so ASIs are going to be important. If you go half-plate instead, you get 1 more ASI (or more accurately take 1 less feat) and can get where you are going faster, cheaper, and with only a -1 to AC.

Going full strength rogue will still require you to use a finesse weapon for sneak attack, so rapier is going to be the thing you do unless you dual wield.

[Misterwhisper]

With those requirements it will take you a long time to get it all fit in there.

Dwarf could get you medium armor and save you a feat, but they get no dex bonus.
Even then it would take Heavy armor, and mounted combatant at least, so minimum level 8.


If you were a variant human, you could put the stat points in Dex and probably int or con.
Use the feat to get medium armor, plus shield, which the dwarf would not get.
However, it still has the problem of needing heavy armor, and mounted archery, but at least it has a better dex and shields as an option.

Everything else is going to have to wait until level 10.

The concept is interesting, but the concept requirements are a big hold back.
If you multi class one level of fighter you can get you all the armor and weapons in one swoop and get you archer style which is great.
Play as a variant human and you can go ahead and get mounted combat.

Playing with medium armor instead of heavy could also make it much easier to get going.

Overall, it is a concept that could be interesting and fun, but it is not a concept that works very well or efficiently at all with those restrictions.

[micahaphone]

Having str for armor and dex for sniping with a crossbow will be a bit tough - str based rogue can be fun (mountain dwarf, as others point out), which relies on the fact that you can use str with finesse weapons, still getting you sneak attack. Half Plate can still be plenty noisy and clunky - it'd still fit your idea of a large knight trudging along.

I love the thought of a bounty hunter mountain dwarf who can unerringly track down their prey and find them in any hiding spot, whose fighting style is to grapple (so they can't run away) and then shank with a dagger. Or if your DM allows Sneak Attack on Tavern Brawler improvised attacks (same mechanically as a dagger), you can punch/brass knuckle/punch dagger/bottle skewer then grapple as a bonus action. If you've ever played Darkest Dungeon, this is how I'd build the Bounty Hunter class from that game. Be sure to snort when you crit.

[moonfly7]

Doesn't Mountain dwarf only get you Medium Armor?

Is there a reason Heavy Armor is a must? Thematically Half-Plate is not that different from Full Plate.


I've built a few heavy hitting rogues before. Mountain dwarf can pull it off with a little effort. With point buy you can start with a 16 14 16 10 12 8 and grab heavy armored and heavy armor master and go to town.


With those requirements it will take you a long time to get it all fit in there.

Dwarf could get you medium armor and save you a feat, but they get no dex bonus.
Even then it would take Heavy armor, and mounted combatant at least, so minimum level 8.


If you were a variant human, you could put the stat points in Dex and probably int or con.
Use the feat to get medium armor, plus shield, which the dwarf would not get.
However, it still has the problem of needing heavy armor, and mounted archery, but at least it has a better dex and shields as an option.

Everything else is going to have to wait until level 10.

The concept is interesting, but the concept requirements are a big hold back.
If you multi class one level of fighter you can get you all the armor and weapons in one swoop and get you archer style which is great.
Play as a variant human and you can go ahead and get mounted combat.

Playing with medium armor instead of heavy could also make it much easier to get going.

Overall, it is a concept that could be interesting and fun, but it is not a concept that works very well or efficiently at all with those restrictions.

I rolled for my stats, I got:
13
12
15
18
11
15
Now, to answer the questions:
1. I'm actually planning on playing a mostly melee mounted rogue. I only mentioned the heavy crossbow because it would be my preferred ranged option if I needed one. Sorry, I realise I didn't make that clear. I plan on using a scimitar and am now definitely considering a shield.
2. I understand my requirements hinder me, and I'm aware of the wonders I level fighter can give me. But I put in the restrictions because it's how i want to play the character. Also he's a back up and would currently be level 8, so he has 2 ASIs to assign.
I'm not set on race, and would love some creative advice and examples of what I could play, going for a knight on horseback here basically, although I might choose to go more light cavalry, in which case I'll switch to medium armor.
I could also use some help choosing subclass, I'm thinking scout, and if I do that I'm definitly going to be light cavalry.
I plan on dropping my expertise into animal handling, and I don't know which other skill yet.

[micahaphone]

Assuming that you don't play with roll-down-the-line stats, I'd personally play a mountain dwarf with the following post-racial stats:

20
15
17
12
13
11

You'll be a tanky frontline fighter in half plate w/ a shield, AC 19 and a +3 con, still be okay at ranged fighting when needed.

I would recommend investigation for another expertise - it could be your character scanning the environment from atop their mount, or scrutinizing the enemy fortifications looking for a weak point. Unless your DM declares both of those to be perception.

ASI could go into feats, or you could up your dex, con, and/or wis by +1 for nice benefits. At level 8, I'd personally take +1 dex and con, then Observant or another +1 wis half feat. Or mounted combatant if your campaign allows you to fight on your mount frequently.

As a scout, the free expertise in Nature and Survival will make you a great campaigner, ready to go on a crusade any time.

Dwarf's lower move speed is mitigated by riding a mount, or if you're unmounted level 9 Scout will bump you up to slightly above average.

EDIT: Teaguethebean has pointed out to me that rogues get neither scimitars or shields in their proficiencies, so this build is bunk. I think this is another point where a single level of fighter would make what you want a lot easier.

[Teaguethebean]

I rolled for my stats, I got:
13
12
15
18
11
15
Now, to answer the questions:
1. I'm actually planning on playing a mostly melee mounted rogue. I only mentioned the heavy crossbow because it would be my preferred ranged option if I needed one. Sorry, I realise I didn't make that clear. I plan on using a scimitar and am now definitely considering a shield.
2. I understand my requirements hinder me, and I'm aware of the wonders I level fighter can give me. But I put in the restrictions because it's how i want to play the character. Also he's a back up and would currently be level 8, so he has 2 ASIs to assign.
I'm not set on race, and would love some creative advice and examples of what I could play, going for a knight on horseback here basically, although I might choose to go more light cavalry, in which case I'll switch to medium armor.
I could also use some help choosing subclass, I'm thinking scout, and if I do that I'm definitly going to be light cavalry.
I plan on dropping my expertise into animal handling, and I don't know which other skill yet.

If you plan to use a Shield I definitely recommend variant human grounding out the 15s and the 13 for 18str
14/16 dex
16 con
11 int
Wis and cha can be either 12 or 14/16 based on what you like. Your two asi's would be spent on heavy armor and mounted combatant in order to make you viable in this regard.
Though I don't reccomend this I would rather use dex and medium armor. With variant human taking moderately armored and spending asi's on mounted combatant and sentinel you will miss out on a single point of ac though you will have better initiative, stealth, and will have the sentinel feat allowing you to attack people who try to escape you or attack your mount (and you get sneak attack on the reaction attack)
12str
18dex
16con
12 int
16wis
13cha
Also just to point out rogue's cannot use scimitars you would need to get proficiency from somewhere else.

[Teaguethebean]

You'll be a tanky frontline fighter in half plate w/ a shield, AC 19 and a +3 con, still be okay at ranged fighting when needed.

Where is the Shield coming from?

[moonfly7]

Where is the Shield coming from?
He's saying take moderately armored.

[Daghoulish]

He's saying take moderately armored.

Except he's not. Mountain Dwarves get medium armor but not shields and in his asi section he doesn't bring that up at all.

[moonfly7]

Except he's not. Mountain Dwarves get medium armor but not shields and in his asi section he doesn't bring that up at all.

Nevermind then

[CTurbo]

Go Mountain Dwarf

13+2+1 Str
18 Dex
15+2 Con
12 Int
15 Wis
11 Cha

Mounted Combat and Heavily Armored feat. Bump Dex after that.


I'd probably go Scout as subclass. The reaction movement would be flavorful on a mount.



I do want to point out that you really should stick with Half-Plate and skip the Heavily Armored feat. At least ask your DM if that feat would give you proficiency with shields as it really should anyway. But if you want to stick with full Plate, this is what I would do.

[moonfly7]

Go Mountain Dwarf

13+2+1 Str
18 Dex
15+2 Con
12 Int
15 Wis
11 Cha

Mounted Combat and Heavily Armored feat. Bump Dex after that.


I'd probably go Scout as subclass. The reaction movement would be flavorful on a mount.



I do want to point out that you really should stick with Half-Plate and skip the Heavily Armored feat. At least ask your DM if that feat would give you proficiency with shields as it really should anyway. But if you want to stick with full Plate, this is what I would do.

Seriously considering just going half plate and shield. I think the character will be light cavalry basically, and half plate fits the Scout. Still going to be a knight raining pain down on fools, with shield I have the same AC as full plate, so no issue there. My one concern is that I can't get shield if I go mountain dwarf, but I don't actually want to be a dwarf, since I prefer more exotic races, so I can even pick a more dex based race, and then just take moderately armored and mounted combatant.
It's just that, I don't know. It feels wrong to not have heavy plate still, it feels too "roguey" to me to have medium armor. Feels like a compromise on what I'm going for, which should be impossible since I'm making a character with no restrictions except those I gave myself. Still, feels like I'm compromising on something, and I'm coming out to much like a rogue.

[Contrast]

You can go variant human and pick up moderately armoured, then heavy at 4 and mounted combatant at 8.


Feels like a compromise on what I'm going for, which should be impossible since I'm making a character with no restrictions except those I gave myself. Still, feels like I'm compromising on something, and I'm coming out to much like a rogue.

You're using a class based system that heavily leans into certain archetypes and are trying to build against the archetype and have denied yourself the main tool the game gives you to add flexibiity and allow characters to break out of their class archetype. So yes, it's going to feel forced.

[micahaphone]

It's just that, I don't know. It feels wrong to not have heavy plate still, it feels too "roguey" to me to have medium armor. Feels like a compromise on what I'm going for, which should be impossible since I'm making a character with no restrictions except those I gave myself. Still, feels like I'm compromising on something, and I'm coming out to much like a rogue.

As long as you take one of the heavier "medium" armors that gives disadvantage on stealth, I wouldn't call you a "light" cavalry and would say you're subverting the rogue into being a full-on knight.

If you do a google image search of "half plate" you'll see people wearing plenty of metal. Stick a big helm on, wear a big shield, and you're golden.

[moonfly7]

As long as you take one of the heavier "medium" armors that gives disadvantage on stealth, I wouldn't call you a "light" cavalry and would say you're subverting the rogue into being a full-on knight.

If you do a google image search of "half plate" you'll see people wearing plenty of metal. Stick a big helm on, wear a big shield, and you're golden.

I know this. I'm a midevil history buff and I love old weapons and armor. I understand that both mechanically and cosmetically it's what I want, it just feels....wrong, somehow. I don't know, does anyone else feel like half plate is still to roguey?

Also, no comments about the having a horse for free sneak attacks idea? At all? Not even to tell me I'm wrong?
I'm surprised, thought someone would at least mention it to tell me I couldn't do that, or maybe that they thought it was cool.

[Misterwhisper]

I know this. I'm a midevil history buff and I love old weapons and armor. I understand that both mechanically and cosmetically it's what I want, it just feels....wrong, somehow. I don't know, does anyone else feel like half plate is still to roguey?

Also, no comments about the having a horse for free sneak attacks idea? At all? Not even to tell me I'm wrong?
I'm surprised, thought someone would at least mention it to tell me I couldn't do that, or maybe that they thought it was cool.

The mount thing works fine, the issue is how often the dm will let you use it in combat and actual adventuring.

Dms dont have a problem with it because it is so costly and yet easy to counter.

With your stats you can do anything.

[moonfly7]

The mount thing works fine, the issue is how often the dm will let you use it in combat and actual adventuring.

Dms dont have a problem with it because it is so costly and yet easy to counter.

Knowing my DM, the horse will never be targeted, ever. He'll either forget I'm riding it, or simply refuse to hurt my horesy boi.
But hopefully I just grab a bigger creature to be my mount, expertise in animal handling, don't fail me now.

[Contrast]

Knowing my DM, the horse will never be targeted, ever. He'll either forget I'm riding it, or simply refuse to hurt my horesy boi.
But hopefully I just grab a bigger creature to be my mount, expertise in animal handling, don't fail me now.

Your DMs attitude may change if you start getting advantage on everything from riding said horse.

In my the last game we went through two locations that would have required us to immediately abandon a horse to continue and there was one event that would have instantly killed any horses we had with us. It has been several weeks since we've been in a place where we could have acquired horses. Obviously your mileage may vary on those sorts of things.

Small races make mounts substatially more viable as a go to resource as they can fit inside but obviously reduce the value of Mounted Combatant.

Paladin is the only class I personally would consinder investing in Mounted Combatant on because they come with their own respawning mount.

Re sneak attack. I would require it to be a trained war mount to enable sneak attack (sans Mounted Combatant) but wouldn't otherwise have any problem.

[Bosh]

A lot of people are proposing builds that don't come online until level 8. That seems a lot of time to wait until you can do your main schtick. I'd just take a level in fighter. Maybe 2 for action surge if you want. Then with var human you can have the build online at level 2.

Also you can't take your horse into dungeons so consider a way to get sneak attacks without it so you won't be useless without it. A flanking buddy or better yet a wolf totem barb in the party or SOMETHING.

Also which rogue subclass?
-Thief: no real synergy here. Great synergy with barbarian though, which is what I'm doing for my strength rogue.
-Assassin: no synergy here that I see.
-Inquisitive: emergency backup sneak attack when you don't have your horse. Also ilusion popping as a bonus action. Maybe.
-Swashbuckler gives cha to init, not too useful otherwise.
-Mastermind. Gives you something useful to do with you bonus action every round. Maybe barter with other players: you give them help actions for advantage and they give you advantage when you need it through faerie fire or whatever.
-Scout: move as a reaction is useless since you'll leave your horse.
-Arcane trickster: doesn't fit the flavor but mage hand shenanigans as bonus actions are always fun.
-Undead dude: meh.
-Psionic dude: meh.

So prob mastermind or inquisitive.

Also consider Sentinel: works great on a rogue hunter or of you have a frontline buddy, reaction attacks give you the potential for 2 sneak attacks a round!

Another good strength rogue is the rogue/barb wrestler, also automatic advantage 24/7 with 2 levels of barb.

[Teaguethebean]

A lot of people are proposing builds that don't come online until level 8. That seems a lot of time to wait until you can do your main schtick.

Actually not a problem as he is starting above level 8.

[Aidamis]

Heavy Armor is a proficiency, so is med armor. Or heavy crossbow. Find a way to dedicate two years or three of downtime to contract service with the army, get proficiencies without multiclassing. If GM wants it to be five years so be it. As long the party and GM are OK with your character taking time off. This can especially work if you claim to be from a military family. Go Daimyo agent Rogue, come back to Motherland to train in your father's ways. They'll be delighted to have you. Plus better infiltration possibilities. Also Samurai are big on mounted Archery though they don't use crossbows have a good day!

[CTurbo]

Honestly, I know you said no multiclassing, but the more I think about it, the more I think a single level of Fighter is the way for you to get what you want. In addition to the armor problem, Rogues aren't proficient with Heavy Crossbows or Longbows either. Fighter 1 gives you ALL weapons and armor as well as a Fighting Style(Archery?) and Second Wind.

If you still want to stick with Heavy Armor, you'll need a 15 Str at least(unless Dwarf) which is not really a problem with your rolls, but the Archery Fighting Style would help your ranged attacks a lot considering your Dex would just be mediocre.

I think a dagger or shortsword works better thematically with Str than the scimitar, but that's just my opinion. I think I would reflavor a shortsword or scimitar as a broken Longsword. No reason your DM wouldn't allow that as a 1d6 "finesse" weapon.

What race are you thinking if you don't want Dwarf? Half-Orc or Goliath would be fun. I made a super sneaky 7ft tall Goliath Rogue in a one-shot once and it was a fun character lol.

What Rogue subclass were you thinking? Swashbuckler would be fun considering you could attack something and then just gallop away on your horse with no attack of opportunity, but I still think Scout with it's reaction movement would be good too.


After Mounted Combat feat, other feats I would consider are-

Sentinel - anything that attacks your mount you could attack back with your reaction. This is great for getting to use Sneak Attack twice in a round.
Mobile - more speed is good especially for a mounted warrior.
Heavy Armor Master - makes heavy armor even better.
Crossbow Expert - allows 2 chances to get Sneak Attack from ranged attacks.

[moonfly7]

Heavy Armor is a proficiency, so is med armor. Or heavy crossbow. Find a way to dedicate two years or three of downtime to contract service with the army, get proficiencies without multiclassing. If GM wants it to be five years so be it. As long the party and GM are OK with your character taking time off. This can especially work if you claim to be from a military family. Go Daimyo agent Rogue, come back to Motherland to train in your father's ways. They'll be delighted to have you. Plus better infiltration possibilities. Also Samurai are big on mounted Archery though they don't use crossbows have a good day!
Love this idea, but I doubt my DM would allow proficiencies from backstory. He'd be all confused and mildly nervous and might allow it, but bottom line, he'd say no, and I don't like bothering him with stuff that makes him flustered.

Honestly, I know you said no multiclassing, but the more I think about it, the more I think a single level of Fighter is the way for you to get what you want. In addition to the armor problem, Rogues aren't proficient with Heavy Crossbows or Longbows either. Fighter 1 gives you ALL weapons and armor as well as a Fighting Style(Archery?) and Second Wind.

If you still want to stick with Heavy Armor, you'll need a 15 Str at least(unless Dwarf) which is not really a problem with your rolls, but the Archery Fighting Style would help your ranged attacks a lot considering your Dex would just be mediocre.

I think a dagger or shortsword works better thematically with Str than the scimitar, but that's just my opinion. I think I would reflavor a shortsword or scimitar as a broken Longsword. No reason your DM wouldn't allow that as a 1d6 "finesse" weapon.

What race are you thinking if you don't want Dwarf? Half-Orc or Goliath would be fun. I made a super sneaky 7ft tall Goliath Rogue in a one-shot once and it was a fun character lol.

What Rogue subclass were you thinking? Swashbuckler would be fun considering you could attack something and then just gallop away on your horse with no attack of opportunity, but I still think Scout with it's reaction movement would be good too.


After Mounted Combat feat, other feats I would consider are-

Sentinel - anything that attacks your mount you could attack back with your reaction. This is great for getting to use Sneak Attack twice in a round.
Mobile - more speed is good especially for a mounted warrior.
Heavy Armor Master - makes heavy armor even better.
Crossbow Expert - allows 2 chances to get Sneak Attack from ranged attacks.
So, I'm actually reflavoring whatever weapon I choose as a heavier weapon for in game purposes, but use a finesse weapon stats and damage. DM is fin with it so long as I use the stats of a normal rogue weapon.
As for subclass, I'm almost certainly going scout. And one final time about multi classing, maybe I can shed some light on why I don't want too: I'm wanting this build to be pure rogue because I'm trying to break all the rogue stereotypes and be something creative and new. Adding a level of fighter detracts from that because inevitably the character will no longer be a rogue creatively morphed into a new archetype, it'll always feel like a fighter who just wanted more bang for his buck and went rogue. It won't really be a rogue creating or filling a new roll, it'll always be a fighter filling the same roll they always filled: frontline generic damage dealer and tank.
So that's why I'm not going to multiclass. I understandf it makes this easier, but I don't care. Thank you for your help though, I want to make it clear that I'm very grateful to everyone who suggested fighter, as you just wanted to help me by making it easier. Never the less, I shant be taking fighter levels.

[JackPhoenix]

Heavy Armor is a proficiency, so is med armor. Or heavy crossbow. Find a way to dedicate two years or three of downtime to contract service with the army, get proficiencies without multiclassing. If GM wants it to be five years so be it. As long the party and GM are OK with your character taking time off. This can especially work if you claim to be from a military family. Go Daimyo agent Rogue, come back to Motherland to train in your father's ways. They'll be delighted to have you. Plus better infiltration possibilities. Also Samurai are big on mounted Archery though they don't use crossbows have a good day!

It's not, however, tool or skill proficiency, so you can't learn it through downtime.

[djreynolds]

If you have a 14 in dex.... heavy armor can wait, seriously.

Until you get chainmail, breastplate is better because you can still stealth... just call the breast plate part of you family full plate you are still running around collecting.

Forget a shield. Anti-rogue.... most rogues are going to have expertise in athletics or acrobatics. So I cannot see many rogue's "falling" for shoves and shield master

Go swashbuckler, fancy footwork and rakish audacity are awesome

Grab sentinel, why? Because disengage doesn't work with it. Many rogues really rely upon cunning action to get in and out of melee.

In time, upgrade to heavily armored, but remember its only 16AC for breastplate (dex14) vs plate armor AC18

In time, grab mounted combatant or right away take it at 4th level.

Go mountain dwarf

4th level, mounted combatant
8th level, sentinel (I would take this at 4th)
10th level, heavily armored (yeah, you collected your family heirlooms)
12th level, resilient con... why? Because I'm using poison as rogue... and you may have resistance and advantage as a dwarf... but not immunity

[moonfly7]

If you have a 14 in dex.... heavy armor can wait, seriously.

Until you get chainmail, breastplate is better because you can still stealth... just call the breast plate part of you family full plate you are still running around collecting.

Forget a shield. Anti-rogue.... most rogues are going to have expertise in athletics or acrobatics. So I cannot see many rogue's "falling" for shoves and shield master

Go swashbuckler, fancy footwork and rakish audacity are awesome

Grab sentinel, why? Because disengage doesn't work with it. Many rogues really rely upon cunning action to get in and out of melee.

In time, upgrade to heavily armored, but remember its only 16AC for breastplate (dex14) vs plate armor AC18

In time, grab mounted combatant or right away take it at 4th level.

Go mountain dwarf

4th level, mounted combatant
8th level, sentinel (I would take this at 4th)
10th level, heavily armored (yeah, you collected your family heirlooms)
12th level, resilient con... why? Because I'm using poison as rogue... and you may have resistance and advantage as a dwarf... but not immunity

I....dont have a 14 in dex? I'm putting the 18 in dexterity. Taking a 15 in strength. I'm not going strength rogue, it just sounds like a bad idea.

[CTurbo]

I respect you not wanting to multiclass. It will be a HUGE investment to get heavy armor proficiency if you don't start with a race that gives Medium proficiency. If you don't want to be a dwarf, the only other option I know about is Githyanki. They are proficient with medium armor and all swords including the greatsword. They get +2 Str, +1 Int. You could start-



13+2+1 Str
18 Dex
15 Con
11+1 Int
15 Wis
12 Cha

Mounted Combat and Heavily Armored feat. Bump Dex after that, and then maybe +1 Con and Wis eventually.



Human is boring but you could have Mounted Combat, Moderately Armored, and Heavily Armored feats by level 8

I'd go-

13+1+1 Str
18+1 Dex
15+1 Con
12 Int
15 Wis
11 Cha

[opaopajr]

Halfling Dual Wielder Mounted Combatant Lances (lances are not heavy and are one-handed when mounted) on an Intelligent Mount. Emphasize STR. Two tries to land your Sneak Attack w/ Adv, and a third chance OA if they try to leave your Reach. :smalltongue:

[djreynolds]

I....dont have a 14 in dex? I'm putting the 18 in dexterity. Taking a 15 in strength. I'm not going strength rogue, it just sounds like a bad idea.

Strength based rogue is awesome.
With expertise in athletics you could go with shield master and set up your team. (Just not as effective vs other rogues)

I played a strength based swashbuckler/ battlemaster. In full plate. Large medium and small foes took a seat.

With a 20 strength and expertise in athletics... at 5th level... its like + 11 on your check... thats tough to beat.

And with swashbuckler... you stab for sneak attack, shield bash, and walk away.

Also, multiclassing aside, heavy crossbow will cost a feat as well.

The question is investment. IMO if you are going the dex route I think you could just grab moderately armored and then... medium armor master.

With half plate... you still stealth well. And your AC is the same as plate armor... and no strength requirements.

Medium armor master is a good feat for rogues and rogue/fighters if they rolled well... which you did.

Much advice comes from point buy or standard array. But with good rolls like an 18 dex... medium armor master is great feat.

[Aidamis]

It's not, however, tool or skill proficiency, so you can't learn it through downtime.

Good point! thanks for the reminder. That kind of training would then require an extremely permissive GM.

So, to give a recap, OP wants Mounted Combatant, Heavy Armor (shield is optional, and with an heavy crossbow he'll a free hand anyway), and heavy crossbow.

Rogues get Light Armor and simple weapons, by default, plus hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.

How to get the checklist:
Mountain Dwarf (like folks before me suggested) or Githyanki are one feat away from Heavily Armored. Then OP can also negotiate to swap a racial martial weapon proficiency in a cqc weapon for one in heavy crossbow (for instance "hey GM, I give up Greataxe and Warhammer, can I get Heavy Crossbows, please?).
(Dwarf's advantage is that one doesn't lose mobility when donning heavy armor with low STR.)

Mounted Combatant and HA then come in at level 8 at the lowest.

Tl:dr if GM agrees on proficiencies swap, then all that's needed is Githyanki or Dwarf and a fourth level character. If not - level 10 for Weapons Master. Heavily Armored adds +1 Str, Weapons Master adds +1 Str or Dex.
build example: MD Rogue 1 with 8(+2) Str, 15 Dex, 14(+2) Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha (Wis saves are useful and mounted characters always make me think of scouts, so better Perception for OP). Weapons Master for +1 Dex at level 4 cause it's too hard to pass on, Mounted Combatant at level 8, Heavily Armored at level 10. Dex Bump for the win at 12 and 16.

[Aidamis]

Strength based rogue is awesome.
With expertise in athletics you could go with shield master and set up your team. (Just not as effective vs other rogues)

I played a strength based swashbuckler/ battlemaster. In full plate. Large medium and small foes took a seat.

With a 20 strength and expertise in athletics... at 5th level... its like + 11 on your check... thats tough to beat.

And with swashbuckler... you stab for sneak attack, shield bash, and walk away.

Also, multiclassing aside, heavy crossbow will cost a feat as well.

The question is investment. IMO if you are going the dex route I think you could just grab moderately armored and then... medium armor master.

With half plate... you still stealth well. And your AC is the same as plate armor... and no strength requirements.

Medium armor master is a good feat for rogues and rogue/fighters if they rolled well... which you did.

Much advice comes from point buy or standard array. But with good rolls like an 18 dex... medium armor master is great feat.

So many good ideas! thank you for sharing your experience. Str build + Mounted "archery" can lead to fun stuff like Chaos Marauder with Javelins, an iconic unit from Warhammer Fantasy.

[djreynolds]

The OPs build might work, but mounted combatant only gives advantage for melee weapons.

It should work for a slashing scimitar to qualify for sneak attack

But for ranged, you will need a source of advantage even from horseback, for crossbow or shortbow

This build could work if you go with medium armor, moderately armored feat because it will net you a shield and +1 to dex/str

Many 1-20 level rogues can benefit from moderately armored, but weapons are limited, still have crossbow and rapier

Magic initiate is a good idea for find familiar, and owl with flyby can be a great annoyance and advantage maker

2 feats are expensive for medium and then heavy armor, I would recommend medium armor and then MAM, as you can stealth in half-plate and with an 18 dexterity... equivalent to plate

Mounted combatant could work as you can force the enemy to target you and use your reaction for uncanny dodge.

RAI, a swashbuckler on a horse might be able to force an opportunity attack on his mount to him as he rides by and then negate it with fancy foot work, I don't know

RAI, your mount is considered an ally in melee, so you could use a crossbow with crossbow expert possibly, negating the 5ft disadvantage.

[moonfly7]

So many good ideas! thank you for sharing your experience. Str build + Mounted "archery" can lead to fun stuff like Chaos Marauder with Javelins, an iconic unit from Warhammer Fantasy.


The OPs build might work, but mounted combatant only gives advantage for melee weapons.

It should work for a slashing scimitar to qualify for sneak attack

But for ranged, you will need a source of advantage even from horseback, for crossbow or shortbow

This build could work if you go with medium armor, moderately armored feat because it will net you a shield and +1 to dex/str

Many 1-20 level rogues can benefit from moderately armored, but weapons are limited, still have crossbow and rapier

Magic initiate is a good idea for find familiar, and owl with flyby can be a great annoyance and advantage maker

2 feats are expensive for medium and then heavy armor, I would recommend medium armor and then MAM, as you can stealth in half-plate and with an 18 dexterity... equivalent to plate

Mounted combatant could work as you can force the enemy to target you and use your reaction for uncanny dodge.

RAI, a swashbuckler on a horse might be able to force an opportunity attack on his mount to him as he rides by and then negate it with fancy foot work, I don't know

RAI, your mount is considered an ally in melee, so you could use a crossbow with crossbow expert possibly, negating the 5ft disadvantage.

So, thank you everyone for the help so far! But the heavy crossbow is actually optional and not even that required. This is a melee build mostly and I realise I didn't make this clear. My fault really. So don't worry about the heavy crossbow, I'll be using a scimitar.

[djreynolds]

So, thank you everyone for the help so far! But the heavy crossbow is actually optional and not even that required. This is a melee build mostly and I realise I didn't make this clear. My fault really. So don't worry about the heavy crossbow, I'll be using a scimitar.

I'm really interested in this build.

You might go to sage advice and ask about mounted combatant feat, and either fancy footwork or the mobile feet and AoO vs you're mount

Can you transfer that attack to you? And do your feats still work?

Because then mobile and mounted combatant could be a very cool combo for anyone wanting to do ride by attacks and not suffer AoOs?

Mr Moonfly you might be onto something very strong here

[JackPhoenix]

I'm really interested in this build.

You might go to sage advice and ask about mounted combatant feat, and either fancy footwork or the mobile feet and AoO vs you're mount

Can you transfer that attack to you? And do your feats still work?

Because then mobile and mounted combatant could be a very cool combo for anyone wanting to do ride by attacks and not suffer AoOs?

Not really. The horse doesn't have mobile, so it still provokes OA. The rider's feats or class abilities won't change that. Changing the attack's target doesn't help: it wasn't the rider who provoked the OA, but the mount.

[moonfly7]

I'm really interested in this build.

You might go to sage advice and ask about mounted combatant feat, and either fancy footwork or the mobile feet and AoO vs you're mount

Can you transfer that attack to you? And do your feats still work?

Because then mobile and mounted combatant could be a very cool combo for anyone wanting to do ride by attacks and not suffer AoOs?

Mr Moonfly you might be onto something very strong here

I don't think the feats sync like that, but thank you for the kind words.
I've actually decided on race: bugbear.
I'll be taking moderatly armored and mounted combatant. The next ASI I'll take heavily armored. My weapons load out will be a scimitar and a shield, a short bow, and a hand crossbow. I'll wear half plate till I get my next feat, then go in for full plate. I'm starting the game on my trusty war horse, but I'm hoping for a different steed courtesy of my expertise in animal handling.
Also his name is sir corvan grey

[djreynolds]

You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.

Can a mounted rogue still use uncanny dodge on this attack?

I don't know?

[JackPhoenix]

You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.

Can a mounted rogue still use uncanny dodge on this attack?

I don't know?

Sure. Unlike the previous idea of using Mobility or Fancy Footwork to avoid OA you didn't provoke in the first place, Uncanny Dodge only require you to be hit by an attack (and see the attacker, and still have reaction available).

[djreynolds]

Sure. Unlike the previous idea of using Mobility or Fancy Footwork to avoid OA you didn't provoke in the first place, Uncanny Dodge only require you to be hit by an attack (and see the attacker, and still have reaction available).

I see it.

I thought I stumbled upon a gold mine..... fool's gold 😭.

Still useful though. For a ride by attacking rogue,

[Greywander]

A bit off topic, but I've actually thought about designing a rogue subclass that could do just this. My idea was to theme it around knights errant, who, as I understand, where pretty much bandits with a title. Proficiency with all weapons and armor, the ability to sneak attack with any weapon, and possibly even a fighting style or extra attack, I'd basically just be adding a bit of fighter to the rogue. Would probably need to add a way to deal sneak attack damage, like spending a bonus action after you hit, so that you don't necessarily have to be sneaky like a traditional rogue.

[moonfly7]

A bit off topic, but I've actually thought about designing a rogue subclass that could do just this. My idea was to theme it around knights errant, who, as I understand, where pretty much bandits with a title. Proficiency with all weapons and armor, the ability to sneak attack with any weapon, and possibly even a fighting style or extra attack, I'd basically just be adding a bit of fighter to the rogue. Would probably need to add a way to deal sneak attack damage, like spending a bonus action after you hit, so that you don't necessarily have to be sneaky like a traditional rogue.

Great concept, but a bit too powerful as it is. Maybe they can choose like, 3 weapons to be proficient in and to sneak attack with, and get medium armor prof. +shield.

[micahaphone]

Rogues do get longsword proficiency (for legacy reasons? Or maybe for the few magical longswords that have finesse), so an extra 1 or 2 weapons wouldn't be too much to add along w/ armor and shields. Like how swords bards get medium armor and maneuvers.

[Greywander]

Great concept, but a bit too powerful as it is. Maybe they can choose like, 3 weapons to be proficient in and to sneak attack with, and get medium armor prof. +shield.
Well, I finally wrote it up. I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. I decided not to give them heavy armor, but they still get all martial weapons and can sneak attack with any weapon. Here's the homebrew thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604827-Rogue-subclass-Knight-Errant&p=24311490

Not sure if this would appeal to the OP, or even be permitted by their DM, but if you do decide to run it, let me know how it turns out and if I should make any tweaks.

[Biggstick]

I rolled for my stats, I got:
13
12
15
18
11
15
Now, to answer the questions:
1. I'm actually planning on playing a mostly melee mounted rogue. I only mentioned the heavy crossbow because it would be my preferred ranged option if I needed one. Sorry, I realise I didn't make that clear. I plan on using a scimitar and am now definitely considering a shield.
2. I understand my requirements hinder me, and I'm aware of the wonders I level fighter can give me. But I put in the restrictions because it's how i want to play the character. Also he's a back up and would currently be level 8, so he has 2 ASIs to assign.
I'm not set on race, and would love some creative advice and examples of what I could play, going for a knight on horseback here basically, although I might choose to go more light cavalry, in which case I'll switch to medium armor.
I could also use some help choosing subclass, I'm thinking scout, and if I do that I'm definitly going to be light cavalry.
I plan on dropping my expertise into animal handling, and I don't know which other skill yet.


Love this idea, but I doubt my DM would allow proficiencies from backstory. He'd be all confused and mildly nervous and might allow it, but bottom line, he'd say no, and I don't like bothering him with stuff that makes him flustered.

So, I'm actually reflavoring whatever weapon I choose as a heavier weapon for in game purposes, but use a finesse weapon stats and damage. DM is fin with it so long as I use the stats of a normal rogue weapon.
As for subclass, I'm almost certainly going scout. And one final time about multi classing, maybe I can shed some light on why I don't want too: I'm wanting this build to be pure rogue because I'm trying to break all the rogue stereotypes and be something creative and new. Adding a level of fighter detracts from that because inevitably the character will no longer be a rogue creatively morphed into a new archetype, it'll always feel like a fighter who just wanted more bang for his buck and went rogue. It won't really be a rogue creating or filling a new roll, it'll always be a fighter filling the same roll they always filled: frontline generic damage dealer and tank.
So that's why I'm not going to multiclass. I understandf it makes this easier, but I don't care. Thank you for your help though, I want to make it clear that I'm very grateful to everyone who suggested fighter, as you just wanted to help me by making it easier. Never the less, I shant be taking fighter levels.

Human Swashbuckler

18 Str
12 Dex
15 Con
11 Int
13 Wis
15 Cha

+1 Wis/Cha at level 1.
Moderately Armored as your Human variant feat (+1 Str).
Level 4 ASI: Heavily Armored (+1 Str).
Level 8 ASI: Mounted Combatant (if you really feel the need).
Level 10 ASI: Lucky or Resilient Constitution.
Level 12 ASI: Lucky or Resilient Constitution.

Expertise in Athletics and Persuasion, the other 2 Expertises can go wherever you like.

This character has solid mobility through Cunning Action, as well as can generate their own advantage through Rakish Audacity (if they aren't mounted). They'll have a decent initiative bonus through Rakish Audacity, as well as have the ability to face (through skills and Charisma bonus) quite well should their knightly regard be called for.

Having 12 Dexterity means you can still pull out a light crossbow or shortbow and attack from range should the situation call for it; you're not losing that much by only having a 12 Dexterity.

I have this sort of character actually sitting in my back pocket, and would play them as having a personality of a big-time wrestler or a particularly loquacious knight. Someone that wants to be noticed, is big and strong, and knows just where to strike someone in combat to do the most damage with a single blow. Cunning Action also gives such a PC the ability to move around in combat in the theatrical fashion in which I imagine them doing so.

[moonfly7]

Well, I finally wrote it up. I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. I decided not to give them heavy armor, but they still get all martial weapons and can sneak attack with any weapon. Here's the homebrew thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604827-Rogue-subclass-Knight-Errant&p=24311490

Not sure if this would appeal to the OP, or even be permitted by their DM, but if you do decide to run it, let me know how it turns out and if I should make any tweaks.

Read it. Cool concept, but my DM would never let us play it. I love the idea though.

[da newt]

If you are mounted you can't use your dash or hide, right?

If you are wearing heavy armor but have a crap ST stat then your movement speed is reduced - but you are mounted so who cares (RAW it works, RAI it's crap) dump your ST stat ...

Even with expertise in Animal Handling and a very high WIS, you can only ride domesticated trained mounts or willing intelligent creatures. As cool as it would be to become a living Rumple Minze ad, that's against RAW, right?

The Bugbear's reach will be great for drive-by attacks, but the idea of a plate mailed bugbear on a warhorse finesse attacking with a we little scimitar is a bit of a let down.

[moonfly7]

If you are mounted you can't use your dash or hide, right?

If you are wearing heavy armor but have a crap ST stat then your movement speed is reduced - but you are mounted so who cares (RAW it works, RAI it's crap) dump your ST stat ...

Even with expertise in Animal Handling and a very high WIS, you can only ride domesticated trained mounts or willing intelligent creatures. As cool as it would be to become a living Rumple Minze ad, that's against RAW, right?

The Bugbear's reach will be great for drive-by attacks, but the idea of a plate mailed bugbear on a warhorse finesse attacking with a we little scimitar is a bit of a let down.

Scimitars aren't actually that small. And DM allows as much cosmetic change as needed, so it'll be a big curved saber of an Eastern style. Think african or Arabic curved sword. And we've always played that a high enough animal handling check can make a creature your mount/pet. So I'm pretty set. With me dumping strength, with the bugbears plus 2 it'll still be pretty good. And my dex will be 20 from medium armor master and racial traits.

[da newt]

If you went mounted Kobold you would always have pack tactics for ADV.

Bonus points if you can be a bugbear on an owlbear (they even have history as pets/mounts).



"And we've always played that a high enough animal handling check can make a creature your mount/pet. So I'm pretty set."

- Are you saying that if a PC makes a good animal handling ability check once, you can make any creature your mount or pet for ever? Do pets follow your commands / participate in combat? If so this is way more powerful than the beast master ranger's defining ability, Find Steed / Greater Steed, and makes a chunk of Druid skills obsolete. How many pets can you collect at once? Does every PC have at least one pet/mount? (they'd be stupid not to)

[moonfly7]

If you went mounted Kobold you would always have pack tactics for ADV.

Bonus points if you can be a bugbear on an owlbear (they even have history as pets/mounts).



"And we've always played that a high enough animal handling check can make a creature your mount/pet. So I'm pretty set."

- Are you saying that if a PC makes a good animal handling ability check once, you can make any creature your mount or pet for ever? Do pets follow your commands / participate in combat? If so this is way more powerful than the beast master ranger's defining ability, Find Steed / Greater Steed, and makes a chunk of Druid skills obsolete. How many pets can you collect at once? Does every PC have at least one pet/mount? (they'd be stupid not to)

Basically yes. But we never abuse the rules. It's more unspoken, and it really only happens sometimes. And no, pets are just pets. The DM might allow actions sometimes, but if we have one it probably means something and we won't risk it dying. There's no feasible rule to how many we can have, but we only ever take one if it A, fits into the characters backstory or overall build(like mine) or if a random turn of events leaves us with a chance to befriend a creature.