Beguilers - Eclectic Learning

[heavyfuel]

My DM ruled that a Beguiler can take Eclectic Learning just like a Warmage.

The biggest problem I'm facing is that we face a lot of Undead (immune to Mind affecting), Outsiders, Aberrations, and Monstrous Humanoids - all creatures with good Will save progression.

So, which spells can I pick with Eclectic Learning or Extra Spell feat?

I'm already picking Penumbra Bloodline at lv6, so I'll have decent cc with Black Tentacles at lv 8

Lv 3 - Prestidigitation or Mage Hand
Lv 7 - Alter Self or Command Undead

Any other suggestions? Sticking to Advanced Learning is a possibility

[Troacctid]

My advice is don't pick something you could easily do with wands. Command undead is a pretty solid pick.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the feat Song of the Dead in Dragon Compendium, it's a +1 metamagic that turns the affected spell into a necromancy spell, and if it's mind-affecting, the spell can only affect intelligent undead, on which it has its normal effect. Mindless undead are still immune to the spell, and non-undead are immune as well, and if the spell specifically only affects one creature type (Charm Person or Hold Animal for example) it doesn't allow the spell to affect undead. If you can command or otherwise control a Slaymate (monster in LM), your necromancy spells including those affected by Song of the Dead have a -1 metamagic cost, so just having it present makes this free to apply, other than the spontaneous casting time.

Get a Shirt of Wraith Stalking in MIC, part of the Wraith's Woe set. It allows you to use Hide From Undead on yourself at will, except no undead are ever allowed a saving throw to see through the effect from that item. Make it an intelligent item or an item familiar and it can activate its own effect on you every round, after you've attacked or cast a spell but before you move.

Max out UMD and get a Wand of Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) at a caster level of 20th, so you can Turn Undead as a 20th level Cleric.

Take Versatile Spellcaster in RotD, which allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. This should give you early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list, but you may need to combine it with Heighten Spell to accomplish that. This will also allow you to pick spells of one level higher with your Advanced Learning. Always dip one level of a +1 spellcasting prestige class asap on a Beguiler, so your Advanced Learning falls on an even-numbered character/spellcaster level and hits one spell level higher. This should allow you to pick a 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level spell with each Advanced Learning.

For your Advanced/Eclectic Learning spells, I usually recommend taking Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. Ray of Stupidity with Song of the Dead can still disable an intelligent undead creature if it's brought to Int 0, undead are only outright immune to damage to their physical ability scores. The others should still work fine in this type of game, although Superior Invisibility may be a bit redundant with the Shirt of Wraith Stalking, and the bloodline already gets you Greater Shadow Evocation. You should have quite a while before you'd need to pick those higher level spells though, so maybe see how it plays out or if it even gets to that point.

[NigelWalmsley]

Eclectic Learning is just not that good. Alter Self is a great spell, but you have to be abusing it incredibly hard for it to matter at 7th level.

If you want your Beguiler to be effective against enemies that are immune to mind-effecting or have high will saves, there are a lot of tools available to you. Your class list has illusions and a couple of buffs, which work well enough offensively. You get UMD natively, so you can use wands and scrolls, as well as add-to-list items like knowstones and runestaves. In addition to picking up a bloodline, you can grab Arcane Disciple to add a bunch of spells to your list (1/day each, but that may be all you need). It takes some work, but that's the price you pay for the inherent versatility of being able to cast any of the spell on your list with any of your slots.

At minimum, dip out to Mindbender or something for a level so that you're getting a 3rd level spell with your second Eclectic Learning. Also, you could see if your DM will approve you getting a Dragonpact. They're not great, but maybe there's something there that will give you tools you like.

[Telonius]

One of the frustrating things about Beguilers is when enemies can just say "No" to enchantments and debuffs. There aren't very many direct damage spells on your list. So I'd suggest going that route. It gives you something useful to do when your usual tactics fall flat.

Sound Lance (SpC) is a Wizard/Sorcerer 3 spell. Very few things are immune to Sonic damage.

For the First level spell, Grease is one that can retain utility for quite a long time. Usually people get it in Wand form, but having it on your list can save a few GP.

[heavyfuel]

Take the feat Song of the Dead in Dragon Compendium, it's a +1 metamagic that turns the affected spell into a necromancy spell

The problem with this feat is that if the spell says the target must be living, then it also doesn't work. Do you know how many lvs 1 to 3 enchantment spells on the beguiler list have this restriction? Literally all of them :smallmad: It's super stupid for the feat to have this insane restriction, but as it stands the feat is practically useless.

I like the other suggestions, though. It might be a while before I can afford any of the items because I'm desperately saving for a Collar of Umbral Metamophosis. Though I particularly like Shirt of Wraith Stalking


One of the frustrating things about Beguilers is when enemies can just say "No" to enchantments and debuffs. There aren't very many direct damage spells on your list. So I'd suggest going that route. It gives you something useful to do when your usual tactics fall flat.

Sound Lance (SpC) is a Wizard/Sorcerer 3 spell. Very few things are immune to Sonic damage.

For the First level spell, Grease is one that can retain utility for quite a long time. Usually people get it in Wand form, but having it on your list can save a few GP.

The only reason I don't want to pick Grease or Web with EL at lv7 is because the Penumbra Bloodline gives me Black Tentacles at lv 8. Sure, having extra CC one level earlier is nice, but probably not something I want to spend a class feature on. Sound Lance very cool, but I can only get it at ECL 11 (sans cheese)

[Crake]

Find out if your DM will let you UMD runestaves. It would be DC21 to emulate having a spell on your spell list, and then you would be able to expend a spell slot to use one of the spells in the runestaff. This would give you nigh-infinite options, just by attuning to a new runestaff based on what you need for the day.

[heavyfuel]

Find out if your DM will let you UMD runestaves. It would be DC21 to emulate having a spell on your spell list, and then you would be able to expend a spell slot to use one of the spells in the runestaff. This would give you nigh-infinite options, just by attuning to a new runestaff based on what you need for the day.

I had asked him that and he's okay with the idea. Unfortunately rune staffs are pretty expensive and likely won't be available before lv 11 (since I intend to buy the Collar of Umbral Metamophosis with my 9th and 10th level wealth)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I had asked him that and he's okay with the idea. Unfortunately rune staffs are pretty expensive and likely won't be available before lv 11 (since I intend to buy the Collar of Umbral Metamophosis with my 9th and 10th level wealth)

If you’re good aligned, take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom runestaff. It can be an elvencraft longbow which counts as both a quarterstaff and a bow. You’ll need make it masterwork three times, but you should be able to put three wand chambers in it as well. When the party finds junk loot they would sell for half value, buy it for that amount, get a portion of that back when the cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of the items into the relic. So you pay less than half price to improve it, and you can load it with a bunch of cheap 1st and 2nd level spells.

You can even get incense of consecration and sacrifice fixtures in a cleared dungeon into the relic that the party couldn’t have looted. Traps are particularly expensive, and statues or similar are good targets. It can also be upgraded to three +1 defending weapons, put greater magic weapon on each every day, and always put all three bonuses toward your AC since defending stacks with all other bonuses. You can even put charges of spells in it like a magic staff, and sacrifice more stuff to recharge it when needed.

Remember that each time you modify the relic you can repick everything about its magic properties, as long as the value ends up at the right amount. So repicking the spells it gives you is absolutely possible.

[Crake]

I had asked him that and he's okay with the idea. Unfortunately rune staffs are pretty expensive and likely won't be available before lv 11 (since I intend to buy the Collar of Umbral Metamophosis with my 9th and 10th level wealth)

There's ways to cheapen them significantly (reducing their daily uses from 3/day to 1/day halves their cost for example), and one of the tricks is to use either ancestral relic, or item familiar to let you build your own, with whatever custom spells you'd like.

[radthemad4]

Instead of Beguiler 7, go Rainbow Servant 1 or Divine Oracle 1 to get a domain. Spontaneous casters that get a domain in this manner add the spells on the domain to their spell list, and a fixed list caster automatically knows all the spells on their list. You can thus cast these like any other spell known. Then UMD a wand of Substitute Domain (Complete Champion) to swap out the domain you got for one you actually want (lasts 1 day per caster level, so minimum 3 days). The Necromancer Domain (Eberron Campaign Setting 107) has Command Undead as does the Undead Domain (Dragon # 312 37). The Transformation Domain (Races of Eberron 180-181) has Alter Self. You'll need to recast Substitute Domain every few days, but you can also recast it earlier if you want a different domain.

[heavyfuel]

If you’re good aligned, take Ancestral Relic

Remember that each time you modify the relic you can repick everything about its magic properties, as long as the value ends up at the right amount. So repicking the spells it gives you is absolutely possible.

I'm not Good, unfortunately. Always rubbed me wrong that you have to be Good to have treasure passed down onto you...


There's ways to cheapen them significantly (reducing their daily uses from 3/day to 1/day halves their cost for example), and one of the tricks is to use either ancestral relic, or item familiar to let you build your own, with whatever custom spells you'd like.

Item familiars are a no-go (as is Ancestral Relic). Reducing uses per day might be interesting though


Instead of Beguiler 7, go Rainbow Servant 1 or Divine Oracle 1 to get a domain.

While this is a known and powerful combo, I'm inclined to reject anything divine for this particular character for RP purposes

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook, and per the Rules Compendium since you're able to prepare and cast spells from a spellbook you can learn more spells and add them to it via a method identical to the one Wizards use. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two spell slots of the same level to cast 'any spell you know' of one level higher, which would include spells you've learned and added to your spellbook. Granted you would likely need to have the spellbook out and read the spell as you cast it, so its usefulness in combat may be limited, but this effectively gives a spontaneous caster access to the entire Wizard spell list.

Song of the Dead still works with Ray of Stupidity, Color Spray, Hypnotic/Rainbow Pattern, Confusion, etc., pretty much any mind-affecting illusion actually. With (Chain Spell) Command Undead as the iwin button against mindless undead, and (Arcane Thesis, Split Ray, Lesser Rod of Maximize, etc.) Song of the Dead Ray of Stupidity as an iwin button against intelligent undead, you should be able to do fine.

[Troacctid]

Take Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook, and per the Rules Compendium since you're able to prepare and cast spells from a spellbook you can learn more spells and add them to it via a method identical to the one Wizards use. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two spell slots of the same level to cast 'any spell you know' of one level higher, which would include spells you've learned and added to your spellbook. Granted you would likely need to have the spellbook out and read the spell as you cast it, so its usefulness in combat may be limited, but this effectively gives a spontaneous caster access to the entire Wizard spell list.
First off, you can't scribe spells that aren't on your class spell list. Second, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you the ability to cast off-list spells. So, this is no good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First off, you can't scribe spells that aren't on your class spell list. Second, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you the ability to cast off-list spells. So, this is no good.

Magical Training gives you the ability to cast Wizard cantrips. Thus you can add additional Wizard spells to your spellbook per the Rules Compendium.

Versatile Spellcaster specifically says “any spell you know” of the appropriate level. Not any spell you know from the class list of the spell slots being spent. Specific overrules general, you could even cast a divine spell using slots from an arcane class with that, as arcane spells.

[heavyfuel]

Magical Training gives you the ability to cast Wizard cantrips. Thus you can add additional Wizard spells to your spellbook per the Rules Compendium.

I'm AFB (and will be for a while). Could please provide the rules text that confirm this?

[Troacctid]

Magical Training gives you the ability to cast Wizard cantrips. Thus you can add additional Wizard spells to your spellbook per the Rules Compendium.
Only if they're on your class spell list.


Versatile Spellcaster specifically says “any spell you know” of the appropriate level. Not any spell you know from the class list of the spell slots being spent. Specific overrules general, you could even cast a divine spell using slots from an arcane class with that, as arcane spells.
Your class already says "any spell you know," so either you can do it without Versatile Spellcaster or you can't do it at all. Either way, the feat changes nothing.

[radthemad4]

How about taking Arcane Preparation and going into Mage of the Arcane Order?

[Fizban]

Outsiders have all good saves, and often SR. Aberrations have bad fort and reflex saves, but may have significant hit dice and size for con to power a fort save. Monstrous Humanoids only have bad reflex save and they swing between mostly modest hit dice, and a few that are basically outsiders with the wrong typing.

Presumably your DM is not accepting illusion=win shenanigans (mindless enemies never getting saves, invisible illusory fog or blackness, spells that create a "single" image of multiple things, etc).

Beguilers already get Solid Fog at 4th, and you're adding Black Tentacles.

You need something that affects mindless non-living creatures using reflex or no save and possibly with no SR, at 2nd level. Unless you've been fighting incorporeal undead or things that are on fire, the answer is Web. Or Scorching Ray if SR and fire resist aren't problems.

[Sepultra]

I'd stick to Advanced Learning and take a PrC dip then take Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration. iirc you only need to delay it by a level or two, so Mindbender is always a good pick here. Mindbender cheese is well known, but it's good flavour even without it.
Even if Mindbender doesn't work, there's a lot of interesting PrCs you can take for a level or two and Shadow Conjuration gives you a lot of versatility in and out of combat while letting you be effective against creatures otherwise immune to your abilities. This seems like the best way to resolve your issues and doesn't require much work at all.

[heavyfuel]

How about taking Arcane Preparation and going into Mage of the Arcane Order?

Losing 3 feats and losing the skillpoints that make me a Beguiler is not something I'm willing to give up. Thanks for the suggestion though.


Outsiders have all good saves, and often SR. Aberrations have bad fort and reflex saves, but may have significant hit dice and size for con to power a fort save. Monstrous Humanoids only have bad reflex save and they swing between mostly modest hit dice, and a few that are basically outsiders with the wrong typing.

Presumably your DM is not accepting illusion=win shenanigans (mindless enemies never getting saves, invisible illusory fog or blackness, spells that create a "single" image of multiple things, etc).

Beguilers already get Solid Fog at 4th, and you're adding Black Tentacles.

You need something that affects mindless non-living creatures using reflex or no save and possibly with no SR, at 2nd level. Unless you've been fighting incorporeal undead or things that are on fire, the answer is Web. Or Scorching Ray if SR and fire resist aren't problems.

What do you mean by "invisible illusory fog or blackness"?

As for having good spells at lvs 8 or higher, I'm aware that I'll have plenty of options at those levels, but I'm honestly more worried about the earlier levels.


I'd stick to Advanced Learning and take a PrC dip then take Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration. iirc you only need to delay it by a level or two, so Mindbender is always a good pick here. Mindbender cheese is well known, but it's good flavour even without it.
Even if Mindbender doesn't work, there's a lot of interesting PrCs you can take for a level or two and Shadow Conjuration gives you a lot of versatility in and out of combat while letting you be effective against creatures otherwise immune to your abilities. This seems like the best way to resolve your issues and doesn't require much work at all.

Like I told Fizban, I'm more worried about the early levels than the later ones.