The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Inevitability]

Welcome to the eight thread of this project to assign 3.5 monsters (and templates) a balanced LA.

More information, as well as a list of progress so far, can be found in the archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=24152951).

A new monster will be up soon! Stay tuned.

[Inevitability]

Demon, Myrmixicus

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/ee/2f/4fee2f00c3eb21b45ed2dc762814700f.jpg

Another high-powered demon! This one's got 18 RHD, and Huge size.

Stats are the in the +10-20 range like you'd expect, with the exception of a low (ish) +4 dexterity. Natural weapons are an impressive array of a bite, a tail (which drains 1d6 charisma), and six tentacles (with improved grab and constrict), in addition to two pairs of normal arms. Defensive traits include the general demon immunities, DR 15/good AND iron, and SR 30.

The more interesting abilities are offensively-oriented. Myrmixicuses (myrmixici?) have breath weapons that nauseate for multiple rounds upon a failed reflex save. It's not a poison or disease effect either, so it should in theory even work on things like undead and constructs. Good-aligned creatures take unholy damage as well, but let's be honest, you're here for the nausea. The ability is 1/minute, so it'll be usable roughly once per fight.

The breath weapon's effect is re-used for Unholy Ichor, which splatters melee attackers (except for those with manufactured bludgeoning weapons) with blood that induces more rounds of nausea if it's not dodged.

Infuse Scythe is a flavorful ability that turns up to four masterwork scythes touched by the demon into +3 Unholy weapons until they leave its grasp. It may not see much use in the average game, but it sure is flavorful!

Finally, the more overtly magical abilities. Summon Tanar'ri allows the myrmixicus to summon either some skulvyns (CR 4 demons from this book), or a hezrou, both with a 55% chance of success.

The SLAs are an interesting bunch. Most notable are at-will Charm Monster, Freedom of Movement, self-only Greater Teleport, and True Seeing, as well as 3/day Control Weather. While they're a potent array of buffs both for you and allies, they fail to provide much offensive presence.

For now, I'll assign a rather modest +1 LA, but I'm tending towards +2. Do discuss!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, "Myrmixicus" looks like Greek roots to my extremely untrained eye, so the plural would be either "Myrmixicuses" (English style) or "Myrmixicodes" (pronounced 'oh-dees', Greek style).

[Unavenger]

Hmm, "Myrmixicus" looks like Greek roots to my extremely untrained eye, so the plural would be either "Myrmixicuses" (English style) or "Myrmixicodes" (pronounced 'oh-dees', Greek style).

I know that the Myrmi bit means ant (Compare myrmidons, the fearsome "Ant-tooth" soldiers of ancient Greece) "Myrmyxykos"/Μυρμυξυκοσ is the Greek word meaning "Antioxidant" according to Google Translate, although basically everything else I put in starting with Myrmr resolves to "Ant" so I'm not sure. "Μυρμ υξυκοσ" apparently means "Seaweed perfume," "Μυρμυ ξυκοσ" means "Wood cut", "Μυρμυξ υκοσ" means "Antimyx marshmallow", and "Μυρμυξυκο σ" means "Antimycyclic p".

All in all, Google translate is very helpful here.

[Efrate]

+1 So you can sudden leap or spirit lion totem to get pounce. It is an interesting beatstick but I do not think it has enough to have it's first level be epic.

[Blue Jay]

I think the myrmixicus's scythes might need a version update. In 3.0e, if your weapon had the same size category as you, you could wield it one-handed. So, a Huge scythe would be a one-handed weapon for a myrmixicus with 3.0e rules; but, with 3.5e rules, a properly-sized scythe is always a two-handed weapon. A Huge creature can wield a Large scythe as a one-handed weapon, but it takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

So, I think converting the myrmixicus's scythe attacks to 3.5e mechanics would technically involve either having it wield Large scythes with a -2 penalty, or adding another special ability to wield properly-sized scythes one-handed. I'm not sure which of those I would personally prefer, but it's probably a more or less superfluous detail.

I also suspect that they were supposed to have the Amphibious special quality, and I'd probably be inclined to add that, just like for the ahuizotl.

ECL ~18 is generally outside my comfort zone for LA rating, but I'll go ahead and vote LA +1 for the myrmixicus, though I could probably be convinced to go up or down by 1.

[Caelestion]

Myrmekes were ants, yes, so if this was a Greek monster, I'd expect it to see it written as myrmixikos (or even myrmixikoi in plural). -odes comes from pluralising octopus and isn't generally applicable.

That said, I'll spring for a tentative LA +1.

[danielxcutter]

I believe they were originally CR 21, but the FCI updated their CR to something a bit lower?

And yeah, I dunno what's going on with their scythes. I mean, I know weapon size rules were a bit different in 3.0e... The statblock says they're Huge scythes, but the damage is for Large sized ones. That being said, a good Strength and base attack bonus means they're still going to be shredding opponents pretty easily. Even the base Myrmyxicus has a +27/+22/+17/+12 attack bonus for the primary scythe attack, so giving one more than a standard array and some gear should result in a fairly good chance of hitting without nat-20s.

[Thurbane]

I don't think I can summon the energy for a detailed breakdown of this hot mess. I'll also vote LA +1, but I could see higher justified.

[Blue Jay]

And yeah, I dunno what's going on with their scythes. I mean, I know weapon size rules were a bit different in 3.0e... The statblock says they're Huge scythes, but the damage is for Large sized ones.

Well originally, there weren't rules for sizing weapons up or down: each weapon just had a set size category independent of the wielder's size category, and the relationship between the weapon's and wielder's size categories determined whether it was treated as a light, one-handed or two-handed weapon. A weapon with the size same category as the wielder was treated as one-handed; a weapon one size category larger than its wielder was treated as two-handed; and a weapon one or more sizes smaller than its wielder was treated as light.

A scythe was a Large weapon, which made it two-handed for Medium creatures, one-handed for Large creatures, and light for Huge or larger creatures. In any case, it dealt 2d4 damage. There was no rule for making a scythe smaller or larger than that.

Later sourcebooks introduced the idea of scaling weapons to match different creatures' sizes. Arms and Equipment Guide might be where that idea was first published, but I don't know for sure. In this system, you could create non-standard scythes with size categories other than Large. A Huge one was one step larger than the standard 2d4 scythe. It dealt 2d6 damage, counted as a one-handed for a Huge creature or two-handed for a Large creature, and couldn't be wielded by a Medium or smaller creature at all.

In 3.5e, they kept the newer principle of scaling weapons to match the wielder's size category, and the "light", "one-handed" and "two-handed" designations became standardized qualities that were independent of the weapon's size category. So, all the Large weapons from 3.0e were simply redefined as Medium two-handed weapons. This also means that the Huge scythe of 3.0e is now the Large scythe of 3.5e.

All of this basically means that in 3.5e, a myrmixicus can't wield 4 scythes unless either (1) it wields down-scaled scythes with the "inappropriate size" penalty applied (in addition to the usual multi-weapon fighting penalties), or (2) it has some kind of special racial ability to wield scythes in one hand. I wonder if the writers of FC1 lowered the myrmixicus's CR to 18 in part because of the increased barriers to wielding multiple scythes with 3.5e mechanics.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Give me a +1 for the spiffy aquatic demon. I am waffling hard between one and two but am erring on the side of a more generous ruling this time.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's best to consider them as wielding the scythes as one-handed weapons and sucking up the penalty - sure, their primary scythe attack suffers a bit, but they've got, what, 15 attacks in total? No Blasphemy as a SLA, so I could see one being used as a "boss" encounter against a party in their mid-teen levels fairly easily. Though perhaps the damage output might be a bit overkill for that...

[Inevitability]

Demon, Skulvyn

https://66.media.tumblr.com/9a0dd80e65ee1c20ddf686d1052cef09/tumblr_inline_p9hqq0Ozpt1r0zz7o_500.png

Another aquatic demon. Who'd have thought a book called the Fiend Folio would have so many different outsiders in it?

Skulvyns are large-sized, with a modest 4 RHD. They're strong (18 str), dextrous (16 dex), tough (15 con), and as dumb as your average fridge (5 int). Underwater they are impressively fast, with a 50 ft. swim speed, but on land they're resigned to crawling at a mere 10 ft. rate.

Natural attacks are an 1d8 bite, two 1d6 claws, and a 1d4 tail lash. The last of those also inflicts bleeding wounds, for all that those're worth.

DR 5/good is a nice little buffer to have. SR 12 is similarly neat. Scent is moderately useful. The skulvyn's core trait: a slow aura that affects all living creatures that come within 30 ft. The 4 round duration is unimpressive, but at least making allies immune is easy.

The terrible land speed, bad mental stats, and utter lack of thumbs, hold this back from being a solid brute. I'm going to go with -0 LA on this one (approaching +0), though in an aquatic-heavy campaign it's probably a viable pick.

[danielxcutter]

Seriously, what is it with this book and aquatic monsters? I think this might have the most of them outside Stormwrack!

[Thurbane]

You know, I look at it's picture and think Half Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)Titan Salamander (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030920a), not demon. :smallconfused:

Another one I can't get enthused about enough to warrant a detailed breakdown. Throw me in the LA -0 camp. Even in a purely aquatic campaign, I can think of better ways to spend 4 RHD. But I guess if you were playing an aquatic-only game, it would get closer to +0.

[Debatra]

It's an Aquatic creature without the Air Breathing special quality. That might be worth some kind of reverse-asterisk.

-0

[danielxcutter]

It's an Aquatic creature without the Air Breathing special quality. That might be worth some kind of reverse-asterisk.

-0

Outsiders need to breathe, right? In a purely - or at least mostly - aquatic campaign that might not be a problem, especially if someone can cast Air Breathing or something similar on you. Otherwise nah, not really worth it, especially since you can't use the tail lashes with their other natural attacks.

[DeTess]

In an aquatic campaign this'd be a +0 at the least, but out of the water it's just not gong the distance. -0 LA from me.

[Efrate]

-0. Approaching +0 in an aquatic campaign. There is just not enough there.

[danielxcutter]

Is it just me, or would the tail lashes be better if you've got enough damage boosts? Base damage is low, but with a high Strength, an Amulet of Fists, and maybe Power Attack, I wouldn't be surprised if that had a higher damage-per-full-attack.

[liquidformat]

You know, I look at it's picture and think Half Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)Titan Salamander (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030920a), not demon. :smallconfused:

Another one I can't get enthused about enough to warrant a detailed breakdown. Throw me in the LA -0 camp. Even in a purely aquatic campaign, I can think of better ways to spend 4 RHD. But I guess if you were playing an aquatic-only game, it would get closer to +0.

Half Dragon Titan Salamander should be CR 4 as well but seems distinctly better to me. With fly swim and a reasonable land speed plus a breath weapon it is much more versatile, though it bugs me you don't change bab or saves and only increase hd by one step, also unclear what happens to skill points.

Anyways, even in water I question if this thing is +0 LA but I am comfortable with -0 LA

[Thurbane]

Half Dragon Titan Salamander should be CR 4 as well but seems distinctly better to me. With fly swim and a reasonable land speed plus a breath weapon it is much more versatile, though it bugs me you don't change bab or saves and only increase hd by one step, also unclear what happens to skill points.
Half-gold Dragon Titan Salamander
Large Dragon (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d10+16 (38 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares); fly 80 ft. (8 squares) (average); swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+15
Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d8+8 plus 1d6 acid)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d8+8 plus 1d6 acid), 2 claws +5 (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Acidic bite, breath weapon (30-foot cone of fire, 6d8, DC 16)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +0
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +1, Move Silently +5, Spot +4, Swim +16
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Climate/Terrain: Temperate and warm marsh, or warm plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Lawful good
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Huge)

Acidic Bite (Ex): The titan salamander's saliva is caustic and inflicts 1d6 points of additional acid damage on a successful bite attack.

Skills
A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

I think I've done that correctly. I haven't messed around with the skills, since getting more skill points per HD and a boost to Int should not mean less skills. :smallmad:

[Sutr]

+0 better than a totemist, not enough for LA, same skill points and hit die better base attack and saves. Large size can be good for a bruiser.

Natural armor +6: 1 meld
DR 5/good: 1 meld
either 3 bite, claws or 4 tails with wounding: Meld bound to totem
Slow Aura: Bind worthy in strength

I wouldn't play one, but would definitely use one as a mount in an aquatic campaign. As a DM wouldn't give a player more stuff for playing one.

[vaticideprophet]

+0 in aquatic (rating clearly aquatic creatures for non-aquatic campaigns seems a bit useless to me). Pretty cool-looking, tbh.

[Inevitability]

Wastrilith

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/d/dd/Wastrilith-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20180527030104

Mooooore aquatic demons!

Wastriliths are Huge-sized with 15 RHD. Ability scores aren't bad, but hardly impressive: 29 strength is the main selling point while every other stat receives a boost between +2 and +8. Cold immunity is good, fire vulnerability is bad, immunity to water-based attacks is niche. SR 20 makes little sense considering these guys' HD, and zero sense when you consider their even higher CRs. 30 ft. land speed is passable, 80 ft. swim speed situational but useful.

Natural attacks are disappointing: a simple bite/claw/claw routine with relatively low damage dice (2d6 and 2d4). The other offensive abilities worth noting are a simple 3d10 breath weapon of boiling water, Water Mastery (+1 on attack and damage rolls if you and your opponent are both touching water).

The main point of interest here: SLAs! At-will Blasphemy, Control Water, Deeper Darkness, Desecrate, Detect Good/Law, Fear, Greater Dispelling, Greater Teleport, Read Magic, Suggestion, Telekinesis, Tongues, Unhallow, Unholy Blight, and Wall of Ice, in addition to 3/day Symbol, Summon Monster IX (restricted to aquatic/water creatures) and Unholy Aura.

The wastrilith has little to over other than its innate magic, but said magic is a pretty interesting package of utility and the occasional offensive spell. For now I'll assign +1 LA, mostly to compensate for the handful of impressive high-level spells.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Not sure how to parse 3/day Symbol, but seems like a weak but viable +0 to me. Good melee beast with moderate casting seems like a decent level 15 toon.

[Thurbane]

That image seems very different than the one in the FF? TBH I like the one on the FF, because it looks more weird and alien.

Also, this piece of fluff text from the book seems odd to me: "Wastriliths are the terrible lords of the watery parts of the Lower Planes." How is that a thing when the Myrmyxicus, listed two creatures before them, are clearly more powerful?


Huge Outsider (Aquatic, Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar) with 15 ft reach.
15 RHD, of the equally best kind.
Speed 30 ft, swim 80 ft: 30 ft move is decent for a primarily aquatic creature.
+13 natural AC: OK, but not great at this level.
Bite 2d6, 2 claws 2d4: not amazing, but natural attacks can be handy for the right build. I'm not sure you can be that build with 15 RHD, though. Mouthpick weapons are an option at least.
Breath weapon: boiling water 3d10 every 1d4 rounds - pretty underwhelming at this level. Still, you can take metabreath feats, I guess.
SLAs: At will - blasphemy, control water, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, fear, greater dispelling, read magic, suggestion, telekinesis, teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), tongues (self only), unhallow, unholy blight, wall of ice; 3/day - summon monster IX (aquatic only), symbol (any), unholy aura. This is a very solid set of SLAs, especially considering how many high level "at wills" you get.
Break summoning: won't really apply to a PC, but that's a fun ability for a DM. :smalltongue:
Cold immunity: OK.
Fire vulnerability: not OK.
Immunity to water: niche, but good - especially in an aquatic game.
Outsider traits: meh.
SR 20: underwhelming at this level of play.
Telepathy: 100 ft range. Always handy.
Water mastery: a situational +1 bonus is laughable at this level.
Str +18, Dex +8, Con +8, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +8: net +48 with no penalties. Quite respectable.
OK-ish list of racial skills, mostly focused on social skills with a few other things there as well. Seen better, seen worse. +8 racial bonus to Intimidate and Swim.

Weird body shape, regardless of which image you look at. It can explicitly speak. Does it have hands/manipulative digits? DM call I guess, but I would say probably not. Just noticed 2/3 of the aquatic demons don't get classified as Tanar’ri? Odd and somewhat annoying.

I honestly don't know the progression for this guy? Melee brute? Initiator? Skill monkey? Maybe straight into a "Fiend of..." PrC? I would suggest more RHD, but you don't get to Gargantuan until 22.

Due to the ability score boosts and number of high level SLAs, I'm voting LA +1, but I could be argued up or down.

[Sutr]

+2, has ninth level spells 2 levels early without. Quite a good list of spells really. I'd compare that list to a level 15 warlock pretty fairly with all the at wills, which it gets 120 more skill points than from intelligence and type high saves and base attack. I think a +2 to reign that in seems fair.

[Thurbane]

Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

[Efrate]

+1. I do not think summon ix 3x/day is worth the extra point. It has enough goodies to be relevant and powerful, but it's too generic. No clear path. Bruiser with support? Tk spamming dps? Massive skills from an ok list but not a spectacular one? Blender? It's fine but not super good.

[Dimers]

I think "lots of casting of mid- and high-level spells" compares to a sorcerer or maybe a wilder. The wastrilith has less flexibility than a human sorcerer, but infinite spell slots is nice when so many SLAs are applicable to adventuring. I'm basing my vote on poor tier 2 or high tier 3.

Teleport, telekinesis, telepathy, suggestion, greater dispel, tongues and a wad of skill points can address a wide variety of noncombat problems. Unhallow as an SLA (no material component) might have some very interesting benefits depending on GM's ruling about attaching spells -- I mean, you can carpet huge areas with area buffs/debuffs if you don't have to cast the attached spell. Blasphemy won't do much at that CL, so combat options are mostly weak; telekinesis is probably the best at-will, but there are enough summonIXes to last an adventuring day.

Hit points, saves, AC, other defenses, BAB are all good, though that fact doesn't give you an active role to fill.

Eh, I can see this contributing a fair share in any not-humongously-optimized T2/T3 level 17 party (assuming alignment isn't an issue). I'll say weak +2 LA.


Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

"As with the Leadership feat, apprenticeship depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics. You’re free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign." Beyond that boilerplate, the only potential barrier I see is the mechanics of tithing. You have to pay before going up a level, and it's questionable whether a wastrilith starts its existence with a single hit die, so that may just not be possible.

[danielxcutter]

Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

Depends on what monster I guess. There have been "canon" NPC examples of swapping out stock feats, so a monster raised by a caster - either adopted or their parent figure(s) had levels in spellcasting classes et al. - might very well be able to get this feat, fluff-wise.

[liquidformat]

I am comfortable with +0 for the handless fish bird demon, sure Summon Monster IX is a 9th level spell but when Elder water elemental (CR11) is topping your list of summon-able creatures I would argue that is no longer a 9th level spell. Also as a player I don't actually see myself wasting the action to use it unless I purely need a meat shield... Beyond that if not for the decent SLA list this thing would hands down be -0.


Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

I would agree with danielxcutter and say it is very monster specific/ possibly background specific. Specifically for demons and devils I would say no because of the fact that they don't start as baby fiends but just other types of fiends...

[danielxcutter]

I am comfortable with +0 for the handless fish bird demon, sure Summon Monster IX is a 9th level spell but when Elder water elemental (CR11) is topping your list of summon-able creatures I would argue that is no longer a 9th level spell. Also as a player I don't actually see myself wasting the action to use it unless I purely need a meat shield... Beyond that if not for the decent SLA list this thing would hands down be -0.

Well, if you're playing one, chances are that you're in an aquatic campaign, and if you are Elder Water Elementals aren't half bad. Plus I'm pretty sure there are other decently useful creatures you can pull out from lower-level lists.


I would agree with danielxcutter and say it is very monster specific/ possibly background specific. Specifically for demons and devils I would say no because of the fact that they don't start as baby fiends but just other types of fiends...

Since a demon lord or the Abyss itself can "evolve" a demon, perhaps a specific fiend could have been evolved with such feats... though that's probably stretching it a bit, yeah.

[Thurbane]

Well, as per the monster description, a Wastrilith can be Summoned with Summon Monster IX, and it has the Aquatic subtype, so...summon another you?

Downside is if you flub the opposed Wisdom check it will attack you instead of the enemy! :smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

Well, as per the monster description, a Wastrilith can be Summoned with Summon Monster IX, and it has the Aquatic subtype, so...summon another you?

Downside is if you flub the opposed Wisdom check it will attack you instead of the enemy! :smallbiggrin:

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

[danielxcutter]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Yeah, but even summoning one Wastrilith is pretty nice. I mean, I'm pretty sure their CR was lowered from their original CR 17 in the FCI, but they could be pretty useful, wouldn't they?

[ViperMagnum357]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Well, if you can call them they can use their summoning. The original version of Orcus in Dungeon Magazine 89 could call Demons and Undead that would be able use their summoning in turn; 1d2 Balors once per hour, and an Atropal once per day provide plenty of summoning reinforcements.

[Thurbane]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Yeah, but even summoning one Wastrilith is pretty nice. I mean, I'm pretty sure their CR was lowered from their original CR 17 in the FCI, but they could be pretty useful, wouldn't they?

This - I wasn't thinking about chain summoning, just that a Wastrilith may be a better summons than an Elder Elemental. Risky though, with their weird "break summoning" ability.

[Inevitability]

+1 for wastrilith, next are devas.

[Inevitability]

Deva

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/20/Two_types_of_devas.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151031164917

Double update!

The fiend folio gives us two devas: the stronger monadic ones, tasked with guarding the elemental planes, and the weaker movanic, who can be found on the material and energy planes.


Monadic Deva

10 RHD, with all the traits you'd expect of a mid-level celestial. 90 ft. fly speed is impressive, DR 10/evil sure to come in handy, and all-around good stats (+6 to +10 bonuses) are neat to have. SR 22 has its uses.

Immunity to acid, cold, electricty, fire, planar effects, suffocation, death effects, ability drain, ability damage, and energy drain makes for an impressive list of things that you get to no-sell, especially combined with the innate Magic Circle Against Evil and Minor Globe of Invulnerability all devas can project. Flanking should be less of an issue for you than for many other characters, but Uncanny Dodge still has its uses, too.

Most important, however, is the enormous list of SLAs. Naming them all would take too much time, but the highlights include at-will Create Food and Water, Hold Monster, and Polymorph, 3/day Dispel Magic and Plane Shift, and 1/day Commune and Raise Dead, with many less important spells to round this out.

The monadic deva offers a strong chassis, as well as a good array of magic, and I could easily see one outperforming an at-level cleric in many respects. However, the lack of true casting limits its advancement, as well as its flexibility. Even so, +2 is fair.


Movanic Deva

Only 6 RHD, but similar to monadics in many respects. DR 10/evil is still there, SR has been slightly downgraded to 19, and the ability to survive elemental planes now protects against those with positive or negative energy. The energy immunities are mostly still there, but the fire immunity is now merely resistance 20 (ironically, the devas with actual flaming swords are more vulnerable to fire). Ability scores are still uniformly boosted, just to a smaller extent.

Soothing Presence of Nature prevents all plants and animals from attacking the deva unless magically compelled (by RAW, this applies even while you are slowly beating them to death), which is good enough to autowin you some encounters. Heavenly Deflection is either a neat ability that allows you to no-sell one targeted ranged attack per turn (provided you make a moderately hard reflex save), or it's a ridiculously niche perk that forces you into using a very specific weapon.

The spell-likes are once more plentiful, and many of the monadic's stronger ones (at-will Polymorph, 3/day Plane Shift, 1/day Commune and Raise Dead) are available here as well. In light of that, I think +2 is the very minimum here, with a strong case for +3 to be made.


Do discuss!

[Blue Jay]

I think I like LA +1 LA +2 for the monadic deva and LA +2 for the movanic deva.

One minor note is that I think the standard practice with the 3.5e update is to replace polymorph self SLAs with a Change Shape (Su) ability, so I'd recommend assuming that that's the case for the movanic deva. It's not in the update booklet that I can see, but it is consistent with all the other monsters that had polymorph self in 3.0e (including the especially-relevant astral deva), and the Realms Helps also site made the change. Personally, I'd probably make that change for games I run, but I think I'm still voting for +2 on the movanic deva, either way.

[Efrate]

Moandic gets +1. Its very good out the gate, d10 hd, full bab, all good saves and a ton of skills, huge list of nope, and at will polymorph with full bab is a phenominal buff that is literally always able to be up.

The 6hd one is troublesome, but I think +2 is fair. It is a pretty good +2 but I do not think it crosses into +3.

[Mike Miller]

I vote +2 for both devas.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'd be fine with +2 for both, and this is as low as I'd go for the Movanic.

To elaborate, while yes, your advancement isn't as clear-cut as if you had "proper" casting, you are still rocking Ethereal Jaunt, Holy Aura and Plane Shift 3/day for the Monadic, and the Movanic only loses the Aura amongst those big three.

Just the Ethereal Jaunt will do amazing things for you, especially at this level.

Throw in At Will Discern Lies, 3/day Divination and 1/day Commune for both, and they are pretty damn good at information gathering.

Outsider HD and +6 INT, with quite a few very good skills, means it's also very well covered in that front.

Good STR bonus (+6/+10) and full BAB means being a good meleer is as simple as picking up PA. You might well be outperforming a Barbarian here, your racial STR giving a better bonus than his Rage and being on all the time.

And then there's Immunities: Yes.

[Mystic Muse]

+1 LA and +2 LA from me.

[ViperMagnum357]

+1 LA and +2 LA from me.

Same here.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think the post describing them is seriously doing it a disservice by ignoring they both get Ethereal Jaunt, especially 3/day. That alone completely changes the calculus.

And Holy Aura is a very, very good buff: +4 Resistance and Deflection with no alignment limitation, SR 25 against evil creatures and spells, protection from mind ****ery as Prot From Evil, and to take it home they save against blindness every time they attack you or your friends.

That's a Lv 8 buff, and well worth its level. The Monadic can pop that bad boy on the whole party more or less every fight.

Their CRs are 9 and 12. LAs of +3 and +2 are honestly not out of the question here, tho I believe people will balk at +3 without casting.

But being able to, among other things, Raise Dead without material component at the same time (or even before, with +2) than a full cleric is fantastic.

Let's not undersell the Monadic Deva here: it's immune to four elements, petrification, has built-in Death Ward (and can buff the whole party with it due having it at will). Pop a Holy Aura, and your most likely foes will have a whole lot of trouble hitting you with anything due the big buffs to your AC and Saves (on top of your naturally good numbers), and the very high SR for its level. And if they do, they are very likely ****ed due the perma blindness. A Boss level caster might be breaking even on the SR.

The Protective Aura will also insulate against a lot of annoying but effective (and potentially numerous, due your relative levels) effects.

[Blue Jay]

Yeah, I think I kind of skipped the monadic deva because the movanic was more interesting to me.

I think I'm changing my vote for monadic to +2 (updated in my previous post).

[Lans]

+2 for both, unless its polymorph self was errated to just polymorph then make it 3

[danielxcutter]

Hey, Monadic Devas have Spellcraft as a RHD class skill! Hello, Practiced Magic!

[Unavenger]

+2 for both. I've played a movanic and I can attest that they're strong enough to deserve a +2, and the monadic's also very good for its HD.

[danielxcutter]

+2 for both. I've played a movanic and I can attest that they're strong enough to deserve a +2, and the monadic's also very good for its HD.

Oh, did you? What build did you go for? These kind of accounts should help a lot, shouldn't they?

[Unavenger]

Oh, did you? What build did you go for? These kind of accounts should help a lot, shouldn't they?

Outsider 6/Paladin 2/Emissary of Barachiel 10 is what I was angling for - you end up with full BAB, divine grace, and fourth-level casting. I don't think I ever made it to 18th level, but it's a solid build.

[danielxcutter]

Outsider 6/Paladin 2/Emissary of Barachiel 10 is what I was angling for - you end up with full BAB, divine grace, and fourth-level casting. I don't think I ever made it to 18th level, but it's a solid build.

Er, Emissary of Barachiel is only a 3/4 BAB class. Still, with the Strength bonus I guess that's somewhat made up for... And it's certainly flavorful, can't deny that in the slightest.

[Unavenger]

Er, Emissary of Barachiel is only a 3/4 BAB class. Still, with the Strength bonus I guess that's somewhat made up for... And it's certainly flavorful, can't deny that in the slightest.

Oh, it must have been one of the other Blah of Name classes. Champion of Gwy[furious keyboard mashing] maybe? It's been a while since I played that character...

[danielxcutter]

Oh, it must have been one of the other Blah of Name classes. Champion of Gwy[furious keyboard mashing] maybe? It's been a while since I played that character...

Seriously, that prestige class series really does make sense for a celestial...

[Blue Jay]

+2 for both, unless its polymorph self was errated to just polymorph then make it 3

There wasn't any real errata for Fiend Folio, but the astral deva's polymorph self was revised to Change Shape (Small or Medium humanoid), so that's probably what the movanic deva should get too.

[Prime32]

Heavenly Deflection is either a neat ability that allows you to no-sell one targeted ranged attack per turn (provided you make a moderately hard reflex save), or it's a ridiculously niche perk that forces you into using a very specific weapon.

Once per round as a free action, a movanic deva can deflect ranged attacks and certain spells by batting them away with its +1 flaming greatsword.
Sounds like it's referring to the weapon the deva comes with, and you'd retain the benefit even if you upgrade its properties. Which isn't hard, since you qualify for both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Ancestral Relic.

Also worth noting: this is the same mechanic as 3.0 Deflect Arrows + the Exceptional Deflection epic feat, just with "must hold your sword" in place of "must have a free hand". So in a 3.5 update you wouldn't even need to succeed on a Reflex save. A generous DM might even let you apply things like Reflect Arrows to it.

[Inevitability]

+2 LA for both! Next monster will be soon: another double update.

[Inevitability]

Devil

https://66.media.tumblr.com/410694b786312f3d03b0d1c10f7eab26/tumblr_inline_os2ueaKutp1rkapbx_400.jpg

I Had To See This Horrifying Old Dominatrix Clown Fiend So Now You Should Too.


Paeliryon

Depicted above: paeliryons are 18 HD, huge-sized high-ranking devils. Ability-wise they aren't very impressive: they 'only' have 25 strength, and all other stats are worse than that, with most hovering around 20.

DR 15/good and silver is hard to overcome, acid and cold resistance 20 will come in handy, and fire and poison immunity have obvious uses. SR 32 is the double-edged sword it always is.

Offensively, the devil is more interesting. It gets a natural bite attack, but its main natural weapon are (deep breath) a pair of 30 ft-long extendible fingernails that damage charisma and get 17-20 3x crits. I'm not sure how relevant these will be, as even with all those goodies the damage is still somewhat disappointing (that and it still takes up your hands) but I'd be surprised if there's no weird niche for it.

In defiance of their description (which describes their smell as 'the stink of unwashed bodies and brimstone'), these devils have an Intoxicating Scent that applies the Mind Fog effect to others. It's free, it's useful, and your allies can be made immune to it.

Furthermore, paeliryons can Belittle their opponents, which stuns them for a while and leaves them shaken afterwards. It's a standard action to use, but it's a large stun AoE that your allies can be immune to (assuming they're cool with getting thoroughly mocked once per day), so if you don't feel like expending SLAs feel free to default to it.

Speaking of SLAs, they're plentiful! Notable ones include at-will Animate Dead, Antilife Shell, Blasphemy, Charm Person, Create Undead, Desecrate, Detect Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility, Major Image, Mind Blank, Polymorph Self (upgraded into either Polymorph or Change Shape), Suggestion and Greater Teleport, as well as 3/day Blasphemy (yes, you read that right), Meteor Swarm, Permanent Image, Shadow Walk, and Symbol and 1/day Forbiddance, Implosion, Imprisonment, and Word of Recall. It's not the ultra-optimized spell list of a tier 1 caster, but it holds enough useful goodies that I don't think a paeliryon player will find themselves without some relevant magic.

Right now, I'm most comfortable assigning +1 LA: the paeliryon is a solid caster skewing towards usage of at-will spells rather than a few big encounter-enders (although it definitely gets encounter-enders as well), with a great chassis and a few useful side abilities. +2 or +0 are also possible, but seem less likely.


Xerfilstyx

Imagine a bat-winged slug-centaur, but it's ripped as hell, carrying a sword, stark raving mad, and the size of an elephant. Whatever you're thinking of now: it's probably still not as bad as the real thing.

These monsters have 15 RHD, and are huge-sized. Their ability scores are considerably better than the paerilyon's: 29 strength, 25 constitution, and 20-12 in all other stats. They enjoy all the default devil abilities, in addition to cold immunity, DR 15/good and silver, fast healing 5, and SR 29. They're also immune to mind-affecting effects, piercing damage, and any harmful effects of the river Styx.

The fiends are quite offensively oriented. They have a wide range of natural attacks: two claws, a bite, a horn, and a tail. The latter can grab creatures and drain their blood, in addition to wiping their memory of the entire xerfilstyx encounter (which is certainly unique, albeit somewhat lacking in usefulness).

They also have the default devilish fear aura, the ability to trip enemies after charging them (which deals a little extra damage as well), and 10 virtual ranks in all knowledge skills (which exist for skill checks but not for meeting requirements or things like that). Additionally, they get a breath weapon, which has an impressive area and deals good damage, but needs to drain from a reservoir of drained blood (every max-strength 20d8 breath weapon takes 20 points of constitution, drained within the past day, to use). In addition to damage, it can remove all memories of the xerfilstyx encounter.

Finally, the SLAs. They're less extensive than on some other devils, but still broad. Most notable are at-will Blasphemy, Charm Person, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph (updated, of course), Telekinesis, and Greater Teleport, as well as 2/day Insanity and 1/day Foresight.

On top of all that, there's the Summon ability. Unlike most devils, there's no failure chance, it's usable twice (rather than once) per day, and it lets you summon from a wide variety of devils, up to two pit fiends. That's extremely impactful, and definitely worth considerably increasing the LA over.

The xerfilstyx is a weird and complicated monster, and I'm going to rate it +3 just to be on the safe side.

[Efrate]

+1 for both. A lot of at will goodies.

[Lans]

You missed the summoning that they put before the the stat block. being able to summon 2 balors twice a day is extremely powerful

[Thurbane]

I know this has been addressed before, but how are we ruling monsters that got updated in later books? I know Paeliryons got an overhaul in FC2, including some drastic changes to their SLAs.

[Blue Jay]

I know this has been addressed before, but how are we ruling monsters that got updated in later books? I know Paeliryons got an overhaul in FC2, including some drastic changes to their SLAs.

And the xerfilstyx was downgraded to Large size in FC2, also. With the chwidencha, I think we just stuck with the version in the current book.

I'm abstaining on the vote for these two, because their ECLs are outside my comfort zone.

[Mike Miller]

I feel like we could skip monsters that are updated in later books. After all, reprinted material supersedes the original. The only downside is needing to know in advance that they were reprinted... I actually feel like I just convinced myself not to skip them. Whoops!

[danielxcutter]

I feel like we could skip monsters that are updated in later books. After all, reprinted material supersedes the original. The only downside is needing to know in advance that they were reprinted... I actually feel like I just convinced myself not to skip them. Whoops!

Their claw reach at least was nerfed to 20 ft. in FCII, though to be frank that’s still fairly big if you’re using them, and if you’re not you honestly don’t care either way.

Honestly, I think it’s better to use the FCII version to consider them, because that’s supposed to be the official version now. And honestly, the change is so drastic it’s worth doing that - they lose their undead-related SLAs and Blasphemy is firmly a 3/day, but Meteor Swarm becomes an at-will SLA(and they have Quicken SLA for it, though I think that might be an oversight), they get 3/day Enervation and Greater Command, ability to summon baatezu(four lemures, two bone or bearded devils, or one erinyes, horned devil, or ice devil) once per day... oh, and at-will Polymorph(awesome) and Charm Monster(less awesome, but still useful), and so on.

Oh by the way, I think a Veil of Allurement or whatever that item was called would be useful for one? Either version has SLAs that benefit from it, and I think it might work with Belittle and Intoxicating Perfume? Cheaper than taking a bunch of Ability Focus feats, and actually pretty cheap in general IIRC(a bit under 5k gp, I think).

[Asmotherion]

I know that the Myrmi bit means ant (Compare myrmidons, the fearsome "Ant-tooth" soldiers of ancient Greece) "Myrmyxykos"/Μυρμυξυκοσ is the Greek word meaning "Antioxidant" according to Google Translate, although basically everything else I put in starting with Myrmr resolves to "Ant" so I'm not sure. "Μυρμ υξυκοσ" apparently means "Seaweed perfume," "Μυρμυ ξυκοσ" means "Wood cut", "Μυρμυξ υκοσ" means "Antimyx marshmallow", and "Μυρμυξυκο σ" means "Antimycyclic p".

All in all, Google translate is very helpful here.

There is a potential that ξυκο is refearing to vinegar, which is accidic in nature. Thus making it's name mean "(demon of) ten thousand acids (vinegars)". (myrmy(gi) actually comes from myryades, or 10000. Myrmygi is a referance to the nature of the ant as a coloni).

[Inevitability]

You missed the summoning that they put before the the stat block. being able to summon 2 pit fiends twice a day is extremely powerful

Excellent point, did not notice that but honestly should've gotten suspicious when I didn't see in-statblock summoning. Will update the xerfilstyx's LA to +3 in light of this, with a good argument for +4 to be made.

(also fixed the devil mentioned in your comment)

[Inevitability]

Dire Rhinoceros

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/c/c6/Dire_Rhinoceros.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20110502061858

That's right, monsters that aren't high-level outsiders exist too.

The dire rhinoceros is predictably not that good. 17 animal HD and a nonhumanoid, handless shape aren't very useful, especially with no special abilities other than a very crit-happy horn (17-20 range, 3x damage) and Trample. Constitution and Strength in the 29-30 range are neat, but don't redeem this.

-0 LA and happy new year to y'all!

[liquidformat]

On the plus side Dire Rhinoceros are a fun druid form to take but yeah they suck hard to play as one. -0 LA no question!

[Efrate]

Easy -0. I would like too see a shadowpouncing one though for the lols. Suddenly rhino!

[Debatra]

A simple one to cap off the year. Nice. -0

[ViperMagnum357]

Definitely LA -0.

[Luccan]

Warrior is the obvious point of comparison, so I would actually say +3

Definite -0

[Thurbane]

I haven't had much time to dedicate to the forums lately, but this one is an easy LA -0.

[Mystic Muse]

LA+4, it's clearly deserving of Epic status.

Yeah, easy LA -0, no doubt about it.

[Aniikinis]

All of that wonderful goodness for only 17 HD? Are they mad? That's amazing!

-0, any more and you're severely overestimating everything about this one.

[Inevitability]

Disenchanter

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50158.jpg

The disenchanter: destroying your loot since 1978!

We're immediately greeted with a problem: disenchanters have 16 RHD. Magical beast hit dice aren't the worst in existence, but they better come with some very good features to be worth 80% of a build. Is this the case?

...sadly, not. The disenchanter has unimpressive stats (23-18 in physicals, 14 charisma, 10 wisdom, 5 intelligence), weak natural weapons (a 1d10 tail slam, two 1d8 hooves, and a no-damage tongue. The tongue can drain enchantments from magical gear, which gives the disenchanter some temporary hit points, but that is obviously not a wise move.

Always-on Detect Magic has some use, but is hardly impressive. The ability to disenchant magic weapons that hit you is arguably a negative: not only does it uncontrollably destroy useful items, it also incentivises foes to focus on your (presumably squishier) allies.

A bit of DR and some spell resistance fail to make up for the fact that this is a gimmicky and weak excuse for a party member, that in some battles even approaches the level of 'active liability'. Rust monsters were bad: this is worse. -0 LA.

[Efrate]

Rust monster, now with magic! Easy -0. Just say no to ruining loot.

[ViperMagnum357]

Easy LA -0 here.

[NontheistCleric]

Just came to point out that 'Movanic Deva' is still misspelled as 'Movadic Deva' on the previous page.

[liquidformat]

-0 LA for the Disenchanter and for its misplaced and inappropriate tail!

[Dimers]

The perfect mount for a Forsaker! :smallsmile: EDIT: Well, at least you have an obvious progression after the RHD ...

[Thurbane]

Another easy LA -0.


The perfect mount for a Forsaker! :smallsmile: EDIT: Well, at least you have an obvious progression after the RHD ...

Nice. :smallsmile:

[Sutr]

So lets compare it to a totemist

Natural armor 16 soulmeldish
Natural attacks 5 attacks soulmeld
Detect magic again soulmeld
Improved grab with constrict and drain magic are pretty bind worthy
Spell resistance is actually a soulmeld
add to that huge size and high ability modifiers :smallsigh:

5 Soulmelds maybe 2 binds and huge size and high ability scores crippling lack of hands and low intelligence. Its a -0 maybe at 12 hit die for the stats might be reasonable but not 17.

[Debatra]

Another easy -0.

[danielxcutter]

*yawns* LA -0. Next!

[Mystic Muse]

Very easy -0 no question.

[Inevitability]

Ethereal Ooze

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50116.jpg

We've had big oozes, small oozes, oozes that drain your blood, oozes that spit fire, oozes that are invisible... ghost oozes were just a matter of time.

These amusing cubic blobs are unfortunately crippled by 12 ooze RHD. They're largely unsurprising: high strength, high constitution, terrible (or nonexistent) stats everywhere else, a single melee slam that deals acid damage, and improved grab/constrict are hardly noteworthy traits.

The most interesting part about the ethereal ooze is how they, like ghosts, exist only physically on the ethereal plane. They can manifest onto the material, but are still incorporeal when they do so. The ooze's signature attack allows it to drag material creatures onto the ethereal plane and immediately start digesting them, which is thematically fun but more than a little impractical.

The need to move into position (with 15 ft. base speed no less) and spend a standard action activating the ability notwithstanding, isolating one foe from the battle so you can 1v1 it is typically a bad idea, especially if you're a near-useless ooze. In battles with large hordes, you're unlikely to put much of a dent in their numbers, while in battles with individual strong foes you will be biting off more than you can chew (which, given the lack of teeth, is very little at all).

Are ethereal oozes fun monsters? I guess: an encounter with one would certainly be unusual, assuming the party has a way to reunite across planes. Are they playable PCs? No. -0 LA.

Next up are the monsters you've all been waiting for: ethergaunts.

[Thurbane]

Mark me down for LA -0 unless anyone makes a compelling argument otherwise.

Just out of interest, did any oozes get marked as anything other than LA -0? From memory, Summoning Ooze came closest.

[Bavarian itP]

Mark me down for LA -0 unless anyone makes a compelling argument otherwise.

Just out of interest, did any oozes get marked as anything other than LA -0? From memory, Summoning Ooze came closest.

Yes ... I think. Now I'm gonna check the archive. It's almost as if that's why it's there :smalltongue:

edit: The Gelatinous Cube got a +0. Yay!

[liquidformat]

Mark me down for LA -0 unless anyone makes a compelling argument otherwise.

Just out of interest, did any oozes get marked as anything other than LA -0? From memory, Summoning Ooze came closest.

If we are counting ooze type then yes living spells have a number of +0 to potentially +1 oozes depending on how you abuse your spells...

Anyways Ethereal Ooze is a clear cut -0, slash about 6 to 8 rhd off it before it can come close to +0...

[ViperMagnum357]

Mark me down for LA -0 unless anyone makes a compelling argument otherwise.


There we go.

[Efrate]

-0. ooze hd yuck.

[danielxcutter]

*trombones intensely*

LA -0. On to the Ethergaunts!

[Sutr]

-0, just wondering about what the debate looks like for the etherguants.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I found the ethergaunts, particularly white and black, were playable at their LAs, so I am curious too.

[Zancloufer]

Don't think this ting is worth any LA, so LA +0 at best. Probably -0.

Also worth noting reading the stat block it appears a mistake was made. The Ethereal Ooze can Engulf/Etheralize MULTIPLE FOES with one action. Pretty much anything that is large or smaller that fit;s within it's 15x15x10 square can be eaten up.

It's not much, but IMHO there is a huge difference between SoL for one foe and SoL for 9 or more foes.

[jindra34]

It's not much, but IMHO there is a huge difference between SoL for one foe and SoL for 9 or more foes.

Except its nowhere near a SoL from your perspective. Engulf doesn't fully disable, which means every foe you drag there is one you have to kill, potentially on your own. And you'll be less protected against them than if you didn't use it.

[Debatra]

Well you could just strand them on the ethereal. Still, it's a bit gimmicky for twelve crap RHD.

Easy -0.

[Malabolg]

A quick question: do you guys take requests? Dragon #343 has a couple of nifty dragons I'm interested in, primarily because they actually get significant casting ability (One even manages to have as many sorcerer casting levels as its HD! ... well, as a wyrmling, anyway), and they're trapped in my head between "the wyrmling is clearly better than a sorcerer of its HD, so needs LA" and "its ONLY hope of contributing is as a caster, if it loses caster levels it can't do its job". I can provide full info on them if you're interested.

[danielxcutter]

A quick question: do you guys take requests? Dragon #343 has a couple of nifty dragons I'm interested in, primarily because they actually get significant casting ability (One even manages to have as many sorcerer casting levels as its HD! ... well, as a wyrmling, anyway), and they're trapped in my head between "the wyrmling is clearly better than a sorcerer of its HD, so needs LA" and "its ONLY hope of contributing is as a caster, if it loses caster levels it can't do its job". I can provide full info on them if you're interested.

We're going through one book at a time, sorry. We're doing Fiend Folio now.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A quick question: do you guys take requests? Dragon #343 has a couple of nifty dragons I'm interested in, primarily because they actually get significant casting ability (One even manages to have as many sorcerer casting levels as its HD! ... well, as a wyrmling, anyway), and they're trapped in my head between "the wyrmling is clearly better than a sorcerer of its HD, so needs LA" and "its ONLY hope of contributing is as a caster, if it loses caster levels it can't do its job". I can provide full info on them if you're interested.


We're going through one book at a time, sorry. We're doing Fiend Folio now.

You can of course stick around until we finish the book, and then throw in a vote for what get's done next (Though I believe Inevitability still has the final say).

[Inevitability]

Ethergaunt

http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/50358.jpg

Ethergaunts: eldritch abominations from the ethereal plane, best known for their horrifying abilities and innate casting. They come in three colors, presented here in ascending level of power for convenience.


Red Ethergaunt

Red Ethergaunts have a mere 5 RHD. Their ability scores are interesting: everything gets a low +2/+4 bonus, except for intelligence which instead enjoys a +12 modifier. Many of their special abilities are shared with the other ethergaunts, so this is not a bad moment to go over those.

Firstly, there's Enslave: a 3/day Dominate Monster spell that can indefinitely enslave creatures (albeit with a new saving throw every day). The effect is also broken if the ethergaunt travels more than one mile away from its slave. Ethergaunts can have a number of enslaved creatures equal to their charisma bonus, meaning that the average NPC red can only have one, but a PC might obtain many more.

Stupefying Gaze is a gaze attack that deals 1d4 damage to all mental ability scores, with the ability to turn it on and off as a free action. It's not friendly, but positioning yourself 30 ft. away from your friends isn't too hard, and if you can't they're not hurt by it.

Immunity to Spells gives ethergaunts infinite spell resistance versus a number of arcane spells, depending on their rank. A red ethergaunt is immune to everything from 2nd level or lower, which isn't too impressive but not useless either. Note that it doesn't work versus divine magic.

All ethergaunts get EWP with the Etherblade, which is kind of like a greatsword except it has no expanded crit range and can shoot laser beams. The beams are unimpressive (1d6 damage, 40 ft. range increment, 50 unrestorable charges per weapon), but might be relevant in one or two situations.

Total Vision gives the ethergaunt some kind of not-quite-blindsight in a 40 ft. radius, which functions regardless of facial coverings and bypasses effects like stealth (even darkstalker stealth) and invisibility.

Finally, there's Material Jaunt, which allows an ethereal ethergaunt to shift to the material plane for 1 round/HD every hour. Most PCs will presumably be on the material by default, making this ability mostly useless.

On top of this, the red ethergaunt gets the casting ability of a 9th-level wizard (yes, you read that right).

What to rate a creature like this? The casting ability combined with the various useful traits (most notably Enslave) makes me suspect that +4 would still be too little: four levels of a prestige class, 1-2 more feats, and a familiar shouldn't outweigh great perception, 3/day Dominate Person, a much better casting stat, and immunity to some low-level magic. In the end, I'll go all the way up to +7: the giant bonuses simply require it.

Because many of the features introduced here are found again in the other ethergaunt subraces, I'll stop here for now and then do the white and black 'gaunts in a double update. Before rating those, I'm interested in seeing the community opinions here.

[danielxcutter]

On the one hand, red ethergaunts are going to be annoyingly squishy, and a serious weakness to HD-based abilities such as Holy Word. On the other hand, the d8s and the Con bonus might make up for that, and they are quite good at casting.

The LA...? Well, having to devote slightly more resources for HP at lower levels is offset considerably by being capable of needing to allocate less resources into boosting your casting stat. You're probably going to have a much higher Int than most other PCs even without items, and you've got a few other things to utilize as well, if rather minor... so I think I'm okay with Inevitability's LA +5 for now.

Honestly, if even the mooks of their race tend to be such powerful Wizards, it's not hard to see why they see Material Plane races as so inferior. I don't think there are any mortal races at all with even remotely such high Intelligence bonuses; even the red ones are smarter than most dragons. The problem with dealing ethergaunts isn't going to be about dealing with the archmage-tier elites, it's that even their mooks are mid-level Wizards as well!

Of course, being smart and innate Wizard casting are really the only things they have going for them; dragons might not be as smart but they're more clever and have better social skills, plus they're capable of simply tearing ethergaunts into tiny aberrant shreds. Which can honestly be said about a general adventurer party, come to think of it. :smallamused:

[Sutr]

I'm going to counter at +6 and I know that may seem high, but it has a ninth level spell equivalent 3/day. Anyone saying +5 is saying that +10 to intelligence is only worth one level adjustment on a full caster.* Now having that hit die so low is a problem for me as spell can affect it more easily, but the senses, immunity to some spells, other stats, along with dominate seem to say not +5.

For reference with the intelligence we moving the dc of its lowest level spells to the dc of the highest level the compared wizard can cast.

*With the and hit die it should be down 2 level up ability raises.

[DeTess]

okay, let's compare this guy, to a 10th, 11th and 12th level wizard. For these, I'll assume that they have a base 16 intelligence that got bumped to 18 by racials for the non-ethergaunts, and a base 14 con and all stat increases from levels go to int.




red ethergaunt
level 10 wizard
level 11 wizard
level 12 wizard


average HP
37
45
49
54


Skill points/max skill rank
88/8
88/13
95/14
102/15


max spell level
5th
5th
6th
6th


spellslots (0th/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th)
4/7/6/5/4/3/0
4/6/5/4/4/3/0
4/6/5/5/4/3/1
4/6/5/5/4/4/2


spell save DC
19+spell level
15+spell level
15+spell level
15+spell level



feats/bonus feats from wizard level
2/0
3/2
3/2
4/2



I think these are the main comparable points, but the ethergaunt also gets the spell immunity, +4 natural armor, enslave and the vision mode.
Personally, I think +5 LA might be one point too little. The 10th level wizard gets more HP, higher skill caps and more feats, but gets fewer spell slots, significantly lower spell save DCs and none of the ethergaunts special defenses (not to mention the enslave ability). I'd put the red ethergaunt tentatively at +6 LA for now

[danielxcutter]

You know, the various abilities that ethergaunts could be compared to a prestige class... do we even know what a "common" PrC would even be? There are literally dozens, and that's just for cases obviously designed for Wizards!

[liquidformat]

After looking at DeTess' excellent chart +6 LA puts you ish on par with a tier 1 class based on casting and ability scores but doesn't take into account your other racial features. I think the Enslave ability is pretty comparable to Mindbender's enternal charm + Thral abilities which take loosing 5 caster levels and 10 levels of a prc to get a up to snuff. as a Red Ethergaunt I can easily have a small army of powerful minions at my beck and call with little effort compared to the hoops another pc has to jump through. I am going with +8 LA that seems fair for the insane package this thing gets.

[danielxcutter]

After looking at DeTess' excellent chart +6 LA puts you ish on par with a tier 1 class based on casting and ability scores but doesn't take into account your other racial features. I think the Enslave ability is pretty comparable to Mindbender's enternal charm + Thral abilities which take loosing 5 caster levels and 10 levels of a prc to get a up to snuff. as a Red Ethergaunt I can easily have a small army of powerful minions at my beck and call with little effort compared to the hoops another pc has to jump through. I am going with +8 LA that seems fair for the insane package this thing gets.

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The number of minions is limited by your Charisma score, not to mention that it's only 3/day! Therefore you cannot get a "small army" as you say!

[remetagross]

Hmmm. First off, two notes.

1. The Ethergaunts' Immunity to Spells wording is different than the Immunity to Magic of Golems. Compare:


Ethergaunts may choose to ignore the effects of arcane spells, just as if the spellcaster had failed to overcome spell resistance.

and


A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that allows spell resistance (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance).

The first difference I notice is that the Ethergaunt's ability can be turned on and off at-will and as a free action, thus removing the most annoying drawback of SR on PCs.
The second one is that Immunity to Spells does not seem to be confined to spells that actually allow SR. Ethergaunts may choose to ignore the effects of arcane spells, period. Whether or not these spells do allow SR in the first place seems irrelevant here. The different wording of the Golems' ability, that puts a clear emphasis on the restriction of its extent to spells allowing SR only, comforts me in this interpretation.
What do you guys think, do you read it that way too? These two points brought together seem enough of a power up to Immunity to Spells (when compared to Immunity to Magic) to counteract the power down imposed by the restriction to arcane magic.

2. Having Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Etherblade) and Combat Casting as bonus feats allows any Ethergaunt to waltz into the Abjurant Champion PrC. It's not terribly useful for them, but it's there, especially if they make a detour by Wyrm Wizard to grab Divine Power.

that said, I think DeTess' excellent chart would gain to be enriched with data relative to AC and saves, since HP is not all that makes a character resistant. In addition, Red Ethergaunts gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat which, while being quite a crappy feat in and of itself, is a useful prereq for a number of other feats and PrCs such as Abjurant Champion, so it's not completely worthless.





red ethergaunt
level 10 wizard
level 11 wizard
level 12 wizard


average HP
37
45
49
54


Skill points/max skill rank
88/8
88/13
95/14
102/15


max spell level
5th
5th
6th
6th


spellslots (0th/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th)
4/7/6/5/4/3/0
4/6/5/4/4/3/0
4/6/5/5/4/3/1
4/6/5/5/4/4/2


spell save DC
19+spell level
15+spell level
15+spell level
15+spell level


feats/bonus feats from wizard level
2/1
3/2
3/2
4/2


AC bonus (Dex + NA)
+6
+0
+0
+0


Saves
+2/+3/+6
+3/+3/+7
+3/+3/+7
+4/+4/+8



Seeing this, I find that comparing an 11th level Wizard to the Red Ethergaunt, the 12 HPs the Wizard has in excess are somewhat counterbalanced by the nice +6 to AC the Red Ethergaunt boasts. In addition, a number of direct damage spells that don't care for AC are neutered by the Red Ethergaunt's spell immunity, like Scorching Ray. That being said, I find that what the Wizard has as an advantage: one 6th-level spell per day, 7 skill points (not of much consequence), the ability to change Combat Casting into some other feat, and then 2 additional feats after this, is inferior to the extra 1st-level and 2nd-level spells per day the Red Ethergaunt possesses, and more particularly the extra 4 points of DC to any spell he casts. In addition, the Red Ethergaunt's Enslave ability is much more powerful than any one 6th level spell the Wizard could muster, and the Ethergaunt gets this ability 3/day.
And in top of that one then adds Total Vision and Stupefying Gaze (which is a free action to use) and all the rest of Immunity to Spells. All in all, I find the Red Ethergaunt superior to the 11th-level Wizard. For this reason, I vote LA +7 for the Red Ethergaunt.

[DeTess]

Hmmm. I think DeTess' excellent chart would gain to be enriched with data relative to AC and saves, since HP is not all that makes a character resistant.
Well, let's see.

The Ethergaunt will have +6 AC over a wizard build using identical base stats, spells and armor (assuming no AC boosting from 6th level+ spells), as it has +4 dex and +4 natural AC, for a total of +6 AC.

Saves are a bit trickier. It has as base fort/ref/wil of +1/+1/+4, where the 10th, 11th and 12th level wizards would have 3/3/7, 3/3/7, and 4/4/8 respectively. The ethergaunt's stat boosts means that it has effectively +2/+3/+6 when compared to a wizard with identical base stats, which is a bit worse than the 10th and 11th, and more than a bit under the 12th level wizard. The differences aren't massive though.

[Efrate]

+6 though I am open to higher las. This is really, really good. How is spell immunity worded (including errata)? 3.0 colossus style spell immunity or unbeatable SR? That means a lot.

[DeTess]

+6 though I am open to higher las. This is really, really good. How is spell immunity worded (including errata)? 3.0 colossus style spell immunity or unbeatable SR? That means a lot.

I don't know about the errata, but the text itself says 'Ethergaunts may choose to ignore the effects of arcane spells, just as if the spellcaster has failed to overcome spell resistance', so I think any SR: no spells should probably still affect them.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Given the handy chart, I don't think I'd ever pick a Human or Grey Elf Wizard 10 over a Red Ethergaunt, at least when looking at the mechanical side. Ethergaunt has more spells and a whopping +4 Spell DC advantage. That's bonkers when you have the list with the all the best SoL in the game.

@edit: With the expansion for the table, I will have to agree with +7. Up to +6, I still go for Ethergaunt in my head. At +7, I could see myself going either way.

[remetagross]

I don't know about the errata, but the text itself says 'Ethergaunts may choose to ignore the effects of arcane spells, just as if the spellcaster has failed to overcome spell resistance', so I think any SR: no spells should probably still affect them.

Well, the Ethergaunt have not been affected by the errata. As to the interpretation of Immunity to Spells, see my post above (which I've been editing while you've posted) but I think SR: no spells cannot get through.

[Mike Miller]

Wow, this thing is 3.0 levels of silliness. I vote +7

[liquidformat]

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The number of minions is limited by your Charisma score, not to mention that it's only 3/day! Therefore you cannot get a "small army" as you say!

with the ability bonuses the Red Ethergaunt has pumping Cha to have a bonus of +5 or +6 by around ECL 10 isn't particularly hard, and 3/day casting is moot since you are more likely looking for good monsters to cherry pick rather than getting them all at once and the daily wil save isn't affected by said 3/day limit. In comparison the Mindbender has to hit min level 15 and loose 5 caster levels for a comparable ability, so sorry not seeing much of an argument here...

[Efrate]

Thinking it over I will go with +7. Change my vote. Regardless of the spell immunity issue the 3.0 is strong with this one.

[Mystic Muse]

La +6 for me I think.

[Thurbane]

Red Ethergaunt


Medium Aberration (extraplanar)
5 RHD (of a not-great kind - easier to swallow when you get innate casting)
30 ft move
+4 natural AC: not bad. Equivalent to a 32,000gp Amulet, minus the slot.
Enslave: 3/day dominate monster, with a limitation on the number of creatures enslaved. Still, as a Supernatural ability, you don't need to worry about SR.
Spells: almost the entire reason to play these guys. 9th level Wizard casting - 4 levels above your HD.
Stupefying gaze: at will, free action, gaze attack roughly equivalent to Touch of Stupidity. Nice.
Darkvision 60 ft
Material jaunt: ability to inhabit the material plane for 1 round/HD, 1/hour. If you want to stay longer, you need other magic.
Immunity to spells: unlimited SR vs. arcane spells of 2nd level or lower. Pretty cool, but limited use at higher levels.
Total vision: automatically detect most creatures in a 40 foot radius. Nice.
Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +12, Wis +4, Cha +2: net +28. Pretty sweet. Admittedly, some scores aren't much use to Wizards, but +12 to your casting stat is great.
Small but decent racial class list: most importantly, the two main skills for a Wizard are there (Concentration and Spellcraft).
Combat Casting and EWP as bonus feats: not bad. I mean, maybe not as useful as Wizard bonus feats, but still not horrible.

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be an issue (class progression is fairly obvious). Solid stat boosts, including a large boost to your casting stat. Other icing on the cake with dominate monster, de-buffing gaze attack, all around vision and immunity to low level arcane spells with SR. And of course, 9th level casting from arguably the best list in the game. The only drawback is your difficulty in leaving the Ethereal easily for extended periods.

With 9th level casting on a 5HD chassis, I'd already be looking at a minimum +4. Throw on the stat boosts, dominate monster, and other perks, I'm voting LA +6, but can definitely see an argument for higher.

[Remuko]

Despite all the current arguments I think I can't believe its worth above +6 (which is my vote) atm. I could probably be argued down to +5 or maybe to +7 but no arguments sway me either way atm, and I always lean towards lower, because its more playable. I prefer OP LA over unplayable(ly bad) ones.

[Debatra]

Also keep in mind that unlike regular Dominate Person (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)/Monster, the victim is allowed a new save every day and can't wander more than a mile from the Ethergaunt. For either of those reasons alone, even with the indefinite duration, I'd say his ability is inferior to DP/M. That army will break ranks eventually, whereas you know how long you have the ones controlled by spells (barring Dispels, Break Enchantments, etc). The DC also appears to be based on Charisma, not its massive Intelligence. This thing is a Wizard with a nice Charisma-based ability, not a Sorcerer. Enslave is not as good as it might appear at first glance.

Enslave is okay, but not pushing it into the next level. Especially since each point of LA hits casters a lot harder than non-casters. That +12 to Int is really nice though.

Call it a +6 for now. I could even see myself dropping to +5 or even going up to +7, but the arguments in favor of doing so would have to be pretty darn good. For those saying +8 or higher, I don't feel the need to take 9th-level spells away from this thing. As mentioned above, Enslave may try to emulate a 9th-level spell, but it's a poor imitation.

[Thurbane]

I may have misread Material Jaunt - if they arrive on the Prime Material by other means, are they drawn back to the Ethereal, or only if they arrive there by Material Jaunt?

[Debatra]

Basically, imagine the reverse of a Human casting Ethereal Jaunt.

[Prime32]

All ethergaunts get EWP with the Etherblade, which is kind of like a greatsword except it has no expanded crit range and can shoot laser beams. The beams are unimpressive (1d6 damage, 40 ft. range increment, 50 unrestorable charges per weapon), but might be relevant in one or two situations.
The etherblade could be genuinely useful (the beams are touch attacks that deal nonmagical force damage, and you can full attack with them), but here it's just overshadowed by everything else. While you can't recharge them, they're cheap; I've seen people carry around a bunch of them, then purchase a Dragonshard Pommel Stone with the enchantments they want and swap it between blades as they run dry.

Since you can make etherblades and give them to your allies, I'd say this shouldn't be judged as an attack form so much as a support ability. Any character based around sneak attack will adore having an ethergaunt in their party.

[Caelestion]

It's got to be either LA +6 or +7, so I'll err on the side of caution and say LA +7.

[Sutr]

I'm going to change to +7 there are a lot of convincing arguments and was posting to show that +5 was to low.

[danielxcutter]

I may have misread Material Jaunt - if they arrive on the Prime Material by other means, are they drawn back to the Ethereal, or only if they arrive there by Material Jaunt?

It's outright stated that Ethergaunts that want to be on the Material longer than that, and who are high-level enough and can use Plane Shift, typically do so. So I think they can stay on the Material that way.

[Sutr]

Just wanted to add this but no matter what this creature will have the highest Level adjustment that has ever been assigned in these threads with what is being debated.

[lord_khaine]

Im kinda torn on this one.
Cant decide between +6 and +7. It does get a stupid amount of free stuff.
But 37 HP at level 12 isnt much either.

[danielxcutter]

Im kinda torn on this one.
Cant decide between +6 and +7. It does get a stupid amount of free stuff.
But 37 HP at level 12 isnt much either.

"Isn't much"? Try "dead in two hits".

[Bavarian itP]

Im kinda torn on this one.
Cant decide between +6 and +7. It does get a stupid amount of free stuff.
But 37 HP at level 12 isnt much either.

This thing can afford to sacrifice INT for CON.

Human Wizard starts with CON 14, INT 18, has 53 hit points @ level 11 (and INT 20 from leveling up)
Etergaunt could start with CON 18(20) and INT 14(26), therfore 51 hit points.

[Mike Miller]

Isn't there a feat to swap bonus HP from CON mod to INT mod? Lots of HP, then

[Unavenger]

Isn't there a feat to swap bonus HP from CON mod to INT mod? Lots of HP, then

Yup, Faerie Mysteries Initiate will allow you to make up for all your hit point loss from the LA, if your DM allows dragon magazine content and you meet the prerequisites (you probably don't).

Still, this monster is so hilariously overpowered that I think I'm going to have to say that too much for vampirism is just right for these beasties: +8 is my vote.

[Zancloufer]

Going to vote +5 here.

Now +6 isn't that high and I could be convinced normally. However it is on the edge. Remember at +5-+6 LA this thing will be (half) a spell level behind a wizard and have almost half it's max ranks and less than half the number of feats. It is pretty much locked out of most PrCs by sheer dint of feats and skill ranks. It will sit at the point where HD targeting spells which are merely a curiosity are outright lethal. It has some nice extra defenses but is that worth the lack of feats/PrC access?

+6 might work, but with all the people calling for +7 I don't feel comfortable with going with my higher estimate.

[Lans]

I'm going with +7, it has some weaknesses at this range but its spells are going to hit like a Mac Truck

[TotallyNotEvil]

Im kinda torn on this one.
Cant decide between +6 and +7. It does get a stupid amount of free stuff.
But 37 HP at level 12 isnt much either.
That's what things like False Life and Greater Blink are for.

Ethergaunt has +2 racial CON and +6 AC (+4 NA, +4 racial DEX) over a wizard of equal stats. That's not a small difference.

Put a 14 or even a 16 on CON during point buy, as you don't need the very expensive (in points) 18 INT, and you've already closed the gap by a fair bit.

With the usual 32 others buy, an Ethergaunt could be rocking something like STR 12 DEX 20 CON 18 INT 28 WIS 14 CHA 10 straight out of the gate.

With the usual +4 INT headband, it's going to be rocking a 21+Spell level DC without sacrificing anything. That's kind of crazy, given the nearly zero effort it took to get that high of a DC.

Should average to 46 HP or so, while the usual CON 14 Wizard 12 would have about 55 HP. In about five levels, due it's higher CON it will break even or surpass the pure wizard, and go on from there.

[danielxcutter]

That's what things like False Life and Greater Blink are for.

Eh, I can buy the other parts, but False Life? I'd rather use stuff like an Amulet of Tears or Ruin Delver's Fortune or maybe Minor Shapeshift.

[Aniikinis]

Finally! The Khen-Zai, the possible creators of the Clockwork Horrors, and the ones who cut themselves off from both the gods and the material world. If the red gets less than +7 I'll be shocked.

[danielxcutter]

Finally! The Khen-Zai, the possible creators of the Clockwork Horrors, and the ones who cut themselves off from both the gods and the material world. If the red gets less than +7 I'll be shocked.

Might want to get some electricity resistance just in case. :smalltongue:

[TotallyNotEvil]

Finally! The Khen-Zai, the possible creators of the Clockwork Horrors, and the ones who cut themselves off from both the gods and the material world. If the red gets less than +7 I'll be shocked.

Are you actually voting for +7? Because it isn't clear if you are, and if I'm counting right +7 has a thin 2-vote lead over +6.

[Inevitability]

+5: 2 votes
+6: 5 votes
+7: 7 votes
+8: 2 votes

+7 wins out with a small margin. Khaine's vote was ambiguous between 6 and 7, Aniikis made an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted as a +7 vote, but unless both of them meant to vote +6 there is no change in the results.

[Inevitability]

Incidentally, this marks:

1. The highest assigned LA to date, beating the Ghaele Eladrin's +6.

2. The only time a WotC LA above +3 ended up being exactly right.

The second in particular convinces me that the age of reason has ended, and pigs will soon sprout wings.

[danielxcutter]

Incidentally, this marks:

1. The highest assigned LA to date, beating the Ghaele Eladrin's +6.

2. The only time a WotC LA above +3 ended up being exactly right.

The second in particular convinces me that the age of reason has ended, and pigs will soon sprout wings.

I'm going to quote that, if you don't mind.

[Inevitability]

Ethergaunt (II)

Ethergaunt, White

These mid-tier ethergaunts, notable for actually wearing clothes, have 11 HD. They're very comparable to the reds: Stupefying gaze, Enslave, Total Vision and Material Jaunt are all unchanged. Constitution, dexterity, and intelligence have gone up at the cost of two points of strength, and Combat Casting isn't a bonus feat anymore (but still something the default monster has chosen, apparently).

White ethergaunts' Spell Immunity has been upgraded to cover 3rd- and 4th-level spells, and their casting is now that of a 13th-level wizard, making a LA of +2 the bare minimum. To balance out the many other goodies the 'gaunt gets, I think +3 or +4 is more appropriate, though.

A LA of +5 is honestly reasonable here. Being behind on casting a bit is compensated for more than adequately with the great stats and special abilities.


Ethergaunt, Black

16 RHD, 17th-level casting, better stats (including a whopping 31 intelligence), and 6th-level Spell Immunity (now covering spells like Flesh to Stone, Feeblemind, and Baleful Polymorph). Not a lot worth mentioning here that hasn't been discussed in some other entry already.

When you consider the giant intelligence bonus, a black ethergaunt isn't that far behind on casting compared to a 20th-level wizard, and as such I'm comfortable assigning it +4 LA. Class levels aren't that important if you have 9th-level spells.

[danielxcutter]

Reds already make very good casters thanks to the ginormous Int bonus, but the others? That's not turning it up to 11, that's ripping the dial off.

[Debatra]

"Two levels above the casting they give you" seems like a good overall rule for Ethergaunts. (except apparently the red ones, though that was pretty close)

Put me down for +4 and +3.

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the White, given their similarities I'm inclined to take the same measure we decided upon for the Red, which had it 3 level above its racial casting.

But it has a far smaller gap between HD and casting than the Red had.

So, at 11 HD and 13th level casting, going to call for +5 LA so it still ends up with 9th level spells.

For Black, I'd consider 17th level casting and +20 Intelligence a worthy 20th l

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the White, given their similarities I'm inclined to take the same measure we decided upon for the Red, which had it 3 levels above its racial casting.

But it has a far smaller gap between HD and casting than the Red had, so the same measure will block 9ths.

So, at 11 HD and 13th level casting, going to call for +5 LA so it still ends up with 9th level spells. It will actually have about the same HP as a Wiz 16 just from the racial CON. AC will be at least 13 higher, and the spell immunity actually blocks out a lot of annoying but effective stuff.

For Black, I'd consider 17th level wizard casting and +20 Intelligence a worthy 20th level build, to say nothing of immunity to the majority of arcane spells. So, at 16 HD, I'm going to say +4. The +19 AC over a normal wizard doesn't hurt either. Or the fact that a CON 14 Wiz 20 would have about 92 HP, and this baby has 104 from racial constitution alone, and as shown for the Red, both White and Black can have all-around great stats.

[Blue Jay]

The Red Ethergaunt intimidated me enough that I declined to vote, and these two also make me a bit wary. But, I'm going to go ahead and vote +4 for both White and Black Ethergaunts.

[Sutr]

6 and 5 respectively as a DM. White ethergaunt has abilities that should put it out of 9nth level casting and black is +15* intillegence over the standard wizard with all that entails, as well as great immunities, hit die, I'd play it over any 20th level wizard build.

*no level up bonuses, with a good argument for 5 for white to be made, but I haven't seen it.

[danielxcutter]

Also, unlike the Illithid(though arguably with slightly weaker abilities IMO), it's easier to get a boost to arcane caster levels than manifester levels, so lagging behind isn't quite a problem when you have so high stats you don't need that much gear otherwise.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah. I think + 6 LA for white, and + 5 LA for black as well sounds fitting.
They cant get all those massive bonuses, and still expect to also keep 9th level spells before epic levels.

[Caelestion]

I'm with TNE here. I think that LA +5 for white and LA +4 for black are appropriate.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah. I think + 6 LA for white, and + 5 LA for black as well sounds fitting.
They cant get all those massive bonuses, and still expect to also keep 9th level spells before epic levels.
I mean, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't believe many others are willing to go for it, losing 9ths is a big No No for most of the playground.

Thinking on it, the Black specially seems almost strictly superior to a Wiz 20...

[Mike Miller]

Well, I am going to vote +5 and +4.

[liquidformat]

I mean, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't believe many others are willing to go for it, losing 9ths is a big No No for most of the playground.

Thinking on it, the Black specially seems almost strictly superior to a Wiz 20...

This is my issue, Black are strictly better than a 20th level wizard in every way; saves, casting, AC, HP, skill points (I guess Wiz 20 wins in max skill points per skill though depending on the skill Black's ability bonuses make that moot). I just can't see how it is fair to play an out of the box black compared to a wiz 20. Then again at level 21 wiz now has epic spell casting which arguably trumps Black. So I am stuck between +4 and +5. I will go with +4 LA just because this is an edge case.

On the other hand I think the White is well balanced at +5 LA, it doesn't have enough to clearly be better than a Red at the same ECL so I think it is fair for it to also get 9th level casting by 20.

[Zecrin]

In my experience, a mid optimized wizard will end the game with an intelligence of around 30, so by 20th level, they are casting 5 ninth level spells a day. The black ethergaunt with an LA of +4, would be casting 4. The wizard would be slightly more likely to overcome spell resistance, and have slightly larger range on his spells, however the ethergaunt would have +10 to all spell save DCs, which is the equivalent of getting to apply a +4 metamagic feat to every spell you cast for free.

That's before factoring in all of the Black Ethergaunts other abilities, some of which I would argue are equivilent the of ninth level spells (spell immunity and enslave).

I would argue that the Ethergaunt is too powerful to have 9th level spells by LV 20. I vote LA +5 for the Black Ethergaunt.

Now you could argue that a Wizard can polymorph any object himself into a Black Ethergaunt, then Persistent Shapechange into an Ethergaunt, and functionally be a Black Ethergaunt. Therefore the monster in question deserves a very low LA, perhaps just a +1 or +2. Not once in an actual game have I seen this tactic actually used, so for now, I'll just ignore it.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I mean, "you could Persist Shapechange" is sort of a nonstarter.

Yeah, maybe an Incantrix could, but that's not a terribly realistic scenario otherwise, and incredibly cheesy besides.

[Aniikinis]

+4 for both. Admittedly I like my games on a bit of a higher power level, but these guys are just strong.

[Thurbane]

White Ethergaunt


Medium Aberration (extraplanar)
11 RHD (of a not-great kind - easier to swallow when you get innate casting)
30 ft move
+10 natural AC: sweet.
Enslave: 3/day dominate monster, with a limitation on the number of creatures enslaved. Still, as a Supernatural ability, you don't need to worry about SR.
Spells: almost the entire reason to play these guys. 13th level Wizard casting - 2 levels above your HD.
Stupefying gaze: at will, free action, gaze attack roughly equivalent to Touch of Stupidity. Nice.
Darkvision 60 ft
Material jaunt: ability to inhabit the material plane for 1 round/HD, 1/hour. If you want to stay longer, you need other magic.
Immunity to spells: unlimited SR vs. arcane spells of 4th level or lower.
Total vision: automatically detect most creatures in a 40 foot radius. Nice.
Str +2, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +16, Wis +4, Cha +2: net +34. Pretty good. Admittedly, some scores aren't much use to Wizards, but +16 to your casting stat is great.
Small but decent racial class list: most importantly, the two main skills for a Wizard are there (Concentration and Spellcraft).
EWP as a bonus feat. No Bonus Combat Casting?

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be an issue (class progression is fairly obvious). Solid stat boosts, including a large boost to your casting stat. Other icing on the cake with dominate monster, de-buffing gaze attack, all around vision and immunity to low level arcane spells with SR. And of course, 13th level casting from arguably the best list in the game.

With 13th level casting on a 11HD chassis, I'd already be looking at a minimum +2. The book lists +5. Throw on the stat boosts, dominate monster, and other perks, I'm voting LA +5 here, strangely in agreement with the book.

[Thurbane]

Black Ethergaunt


Medium Aberration (extraplanar)
11 RHD (of a not-great kind - easier to swallow when you get innate casting)
30 ft move
+15 natural AC: sweet.
Enslave: 3/day dominate monster, with a limitation on the number of creatures enslaved. Still, as a Supernatural ability, you don't need to worry about SR.
Spells: almost the entire reason to play these guys. 17th level Wizard casting - 1 level above your HD. You start play with 9th level spells!
Stupefying gaze: at will, free action, gaze attack roughly equivalent to Touch of Stupidity. Nice.
Darkvision 60 ft
Material jaunt: ability to inhabit the material plane for 1 round/HD, 1/hour. If you want to stay longer, you need other magic.
Immunity to spells: unlimited SR vs. arcane spells of 6th level or lower. This is significant, even at high level play.
Total vision: automatically detect most creatures in a 40 foot radius. Nice.
Str +2, Dex +8, Con +4, Int +20, Wis +4, Cha +4: net +42. Pretty great. Admittedly, some scores aren't much use to Wizards, but +20 to your casting stat is amazing.
Small but decent racial class list: most importantly, the two main skills for a Wizard are there (Concentration and Spellcraft).
EWP as a bonus feat. No Bonus Combat Casting?

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be an issue (class progression is fairly obvious). Solid stat boosts, including a large boost to your casting stat. Other icing on the cake with dominate monster, de-buffing gaze attack, all around vision and immunity to low level arcane spells with SR. And of course, 17th level casting from arguably the best list in the game.

With 17th level casting on a 16HD chassis, I'd already be looking at a minimum +1. The book lists +4. Throw on the stat boosts, dominate monster, and other perks, I'm voting LA +4 here, strangely in agreement with the book.

[Efrate]

White +5. Black +4. Both are just better than a wizard at pretty much all points.

[Remuko]

I think +3 and +2 is more than enough for these tbh. I dont feel any of the arguments for higher convince me. Not that im expecting my votes to matter much, since it seems to be well below everyone elses.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think +3/+2 is fine. (Note that this an updated assessment, I had +3/+3 here first).)

When shapechange is in play--and black ethergaunts can cast it by default--you need to compare to a non-RHD wizard using a sensible PrC. Since black ethergaunts at LA +4 can't actually get any class features pre-epic, be it the slightly OP Incantatrix', the gishy Swiftblade's, or the funky Master Transmogrifist's, I would prefer playing a 20th-level wizard shapechanging into a black ethergaunt than an actual black ethergaunt at ECL 20. On the other hand, black ethergaunts need at least +1 LA, just to balance out the casting, and they do get stuff that's hard to emulate. It's a toss-up between +2 and +3, but I'll go +2, on the basis that +8-16 effective Intelligence* is just about all you get that isn't emulated by shapechange.

The whites have one extra level of casting above their RHD, and can get actual class features to make up for their weaker racial abilities, so an extra point of LA is fair.

(A Master Transmogrifist, incidentally, gets a 720-minute (twelve-hour) duration out of Extended shapechange at CL 18. You can reasonably have all-day coverage for only two spell slots, or even one slot, if using a lot of CL boosts, like Circle Magic. With MT class features and Halruaan Elder class features, a human wizard can give any black ethergaunt a run for their money.)


*A black ethergaunt would have about 18 base + 20 racial + 6 enhancement + 5 inherent = 49 INT at ECL 20. A human would have about 18 base + 5 increases + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 34 INT at ECL 20, increasing to 30 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 41 INT with shapechange into a black ethergaunt. Hence the +20 racial bonus doesn't result in a twenty-point difference at the bottom line; it works out to half that, give or take.

[Zancloufer]

This is tough. Anything less than +3 white and +2 black is a terrible idea as they become essentially better wizards. As with the Red I WANT to go with my higher +4 and +3 which seem fair, but people are again throwing almost absurdly high LA at these things.

+3 white and +2 black. It is a little low but someone has to look at these objectively.

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

While casting, and especially high level casting, is beyond my realm of expertise, Black Ethergaunts get a +20 to Int. That translates to a +9 or +10 to save DCs compared to a wizard. That's the kind of thing that redeems prestige classes with lost caster levels. Combined with all their other perks, the argument is that they are simply better than a level 20 wizard that has optimized for the same things as them, so no matter how inappropriate +4 LA may be in light of epic casting, +3 is even more inappropriate for the bounds of this thread.

While I'm not going to vote on these guys, I do think that going with the more conservative option is probably better, as they're already being compared to wizards, the gold standard of power ceilings.

[ExLibrisMortis]

While casting, and especially high level casting, is beyond my realm of expertise, Black Ethergaunts get a +20 to Int. That translates to a +9 or +10 to save DCs compared to a wizard.
It doesn't quite work out to +10. Yes, you have a high base Intelligence, but you lose DC boosts from class features, and you can't shapechange into a black ethergaunt to get more Intelligence. That sounds stupid, but that's a real thing that makes wizards stronger, and ethergaunts don't get to do it (and they're clearly playing at a level and tier where that is just the thing to do). See my post above. And sorry about the many edits; my thoughts were catching up to my typing.

[Sutr]

This is tough. Anything less than +3 white and +2 black is a terrible idea as they become essentially better wizards. As with the Red I WANT to go with my higher +4 and +3 which seem fair, but people are again throwing almost absurdly high LA at these things.

+3 white and +2 black. It is a little low but someone has to look at these objectively.

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

That's insulting, thank you for your opinion. I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective. You don't even have the creatures hit die right. I compared it to a wizard 3/ binder 1 /anima mage 10/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7. The Anima mage had some better tricks I agree, but you have to weight that with heightening all spells 7 levels and 10 extra skill points per level. At +2 you are saying that my wizard 17 could ask for a +12 unnamed bonus to intelligence instead of a level and you'd say no that's too weak have immunity to arcane spells 6th level and lower except spells that you want the effects from.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective.
I think you're not the most obvious person on this thread to make that sort of claim, Sutr. For example, I'm intrigued by your choice of comparison, which was also conspicuously absent from your post.

[TotallyNotEvil]

+3/+2 is just way too low. As in, I'm halfway swayed by the argument that those should at least double.

Anything less than +5/+4 is just too little. If they were PrCs, they'd be taken every single time. If they were a template, it'd be regarded as the best template a wizard could ever have. It's just too much of an auto-pick.

[Zancloufer]

That's insulting, thank you for your opinion. I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective. You don't even have the creatures hit die right. I compared it to a wizard 3/ binder 1 /anima mage 10/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7. The Anima mage had some better tricks I agree, but you have to weight that with heightening all spells 7 levels and 10 extra skill points per level. At +2 you are saying that my wizard 17 could ask for a +12 unnamed bonus to intelligence instead of a level and you'd say no that's too weak have immunity to arcane spells 6th level and lower except spells that you want the effects from.

My bad made a typo there and typed 15 instead of 16 HD. Definitly on me.

Also I don't disagree that I am low balling it; +3 is the bare minimum I would normally give it and I could see +4. I just feel people are underestimating Epic Spell Casting. You need 21 HD and 17 CL to take it so anything that would normally be a Tier 1 Caster that has an ECL of 21+ but less than 21 HD is instantly useless in all but the lowest OP of groups.

IMHO a straight human wizard 21 would make the 16 HD Black Ethergaunt look bad. With enough spell slots to burn or extra casters the Wizard can essentially transform themselves into said Black Ethergaunt with all it's special abilities. Permanently. As a swift action. And my the Wizard I mean all of the Wizard's party members.

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's only useless when compared to Epic spells, which are the most broken part of a very broken sub-system.

There are enormously worse things to do with your 21st level than learning ninth level spells (for the White) or just having the casting of a 17th level wizard with the raw stats of someone much higher, immunity to the majority of arcane spells and all the other stuff.

[danielxcutter]

It's only useless when compared to Epic spells, which are the most broken part of a very broken sub-system.

There are enormously worse things to do with your 21st level than learning ninth level spells (for the White) or just having the casting of a 17th level wizard with the raw stats of someone much higher, immunity to the majority of arcane spells and all the other stuff.

This is true, yes. While I'm not particularly in agreement with such a high LA, personally, I certainly don't think it's a total deal-breaker.

Honestly, the only real big problems are having less feats and less HD - and the last one is mostly just a real pain when someone uses HD-based abilities such as Dictum on you.

[Thurbane]

I love how the monsters with innate casting usually stir up the most heated debates. :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

I love how the monsters with innate casting usually stir up the most heated debates. :smalltongue:

Probably because casting has the most variables - whether something is good enough to justify losing a level or more of casting progress, what kind of casting, how does it synergize with other abilities the monster has, etc.

Non-casting types are much easier because they're relatively simpler. Is it a bruiser? Well, just see if they can easily deal comparable damage to a PC of similar level, then. Stealth-based? How much of a bonus on Hide and Move Silently, or can it turn invisible? That kind of stuff.

[remetagross]

OK, here's the comparison table between a Black Ethergaunt and a level 20 Wizard. Let's assume there's a 32-point buy, the Black Ethergaunt and the Wizard both buy Str 8/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 18/Wis 12/Cha 8. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 the Wizard bumps Int. On the other hand, the Black Ethergaunt does not get any ability score increase from its 16 RHD, as these are already included in its ability scores. Let's also assume they both have bought a Tome of Clear Thought +5 and a Headband of Intellect +6.




black ethergaunt
level 20 wizard


Ability scores
Str 10 Dex 22 Con 18 Int 49 Wis 16 Cha 12
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 34 Wis 12 Cha 8


average HP
168+(16*Con bonus from items)
90+(20*Con bonus from items)




max spell level
9th
9th


spellslots (0th/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th)
4/9/9/9/8/8/8/7/5/4
4/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5


spell save DC
29+spell level
22+spell level


feats/bonus feats from wizard level
6
7/5


Base saves
+5/+5/+10
+6/+6/+12



Alright, here's my mindset: a player willing to use a Black Ethergaunt as a PC is at least a moderate optimizer. Hence, the would-be Ethergaunt PC has to be compared to an at least moderately optimized Wizard 20. For this reason, I think putting Shapechange on the table is very relevant, and not at all theoretical play. Given that the Wizard 20 has one extra 9th level spell per day compared to the Black Ethergaunt, let's assume he uses this spell to cast Shapechange. Then, we have two possibilities.

1. He finds some form to change into that's even better than a Black Ethergaunt (say, a Chronotyryn). In which case, the logical thing to do for the Black Ethergaunt PC is to also use Shapechange to turn into said Chronotyryn. The Wizard is thus still one 9th-level spell ahead for the day. (Except if said form has too much HD for the caster level of the Ethergaunt PC, but not too much for the Wizard PC, but given enough CL tricks and spent WBL the Ethergaunt PC can quite likely overcome the difference)

2. He turns into a Black Ethergaunt. The Black Ethergaunt PC does not, and the two PCs now have an equal number of 9th level spells for the day.

Outcome 1. is quite more likely, given that better forms than the Ethergaunt exist. Let's suppose that's what happens.

The two PCs will end up with the exact same array of physical ability scores, movement modes, perception modes, bonus to AC, (Ex) and (Su) abilities. For this reason, their AC will be the same, and their save modifiers will be exactly the same (with the exception of Will save being a tad higher for the Ethergaunt) and applied on almost identical base saving throws (the Wizard's being a little better) will yield almost the same final saving modifiers. Skill points are a nonargument when discussing the power level of two high-level wizards. We're done with these.

The Wizard has more CL, the Ethergaunt more HPs. In order to reach CL 20, let's say the Ethergaunt takes Iron Will and Reserves of Strength, and routinely pumps its CL by 3 each time it's needed. The 5d6 damage it takes will be offset by the extra 78 HPs it has over the Wizard. So that's settled too.

As far as spells per day go, the Wizard has one more 9th-level spell and one more 8th-level spell; the Ethergaunt boasts a massive 2 extra spells per day of each level from levels 1 to 3, 5 to 6, and one extra at levels 4 and 7. Let's convert that into Pearls of Power. The Black Ethergaunt needs to spend 64+81=145k gp. The Wizard needs to spend 2*(1+4+9+25+36)+(16+49)=215k gp. Meaning the Ethergaunt comes out on top with an extra 70k gp to boot.

But then, the Ethergaunt only has 6 feats, 2 of which are already taken by Iron Will and Reserves of Strength (let's say it gets Iron Will from a magical location, so that's only 1 down; on the other hand, the Wizard gets to DCFS away his bonus Scribe Scroll to something more useful it it wishes so). So that's 5 open feats for the Ethergaunt vs 12 open feats for the Wizard. The Ethergaunt blows one feat on Obtain Familiar, to match the Wizard's. It's now down to 4 open feats. The Wizard is in excess of 8 feats.

However, the Ethergaunt's spells' save DCs are a whopping 7 points above the Wizard's. How can the Wizard overcome that? Well, there's the Irresistible Spell metamagic feat (which needs two other feats as prerequisites), from Kingdoms of Kalamar, that adds an extra +10 to save DCs, at the cost of a +4 level adjustement. The Wizard can then take Southern Magician to be allowed to cast once per day per two caster levels any spell as a divine spell; he takes Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) [Sun domain from Dark Sun Campaign Setting]: that grants him Turn Undead. He finally takes Divine Metamagic (Irresistible Spell), and buys a bunch of Nightsticks. There we go. The Wizard has used up 6 feat slots, and a bunch of money into Nightsticks. Let's say he spends half of all the money normally used for consumables on them (which is, as a rule of thumb, 25% of one's WBL). Meaning he uses up, at level 20, 95k gp on them (that's about 13 Nightsticks). Sure, the Wizard can only do this a couple times per day, whereas the Ethergaunt can always do this and for free; but when the Wizard does pull off the trick, the save DC of his spells ends up being 3 higher than the Ethergaunt's, so I'd say this roughly balances out.

When all is said and done, on the one hand the Ethergaunt gets an extra 70+95=165kp gp (and more than 100 extra skill points, for that matter); on the other hand the Wizard still has 2 extra feats. The Wizard has pulled off quite a complicated combination of feats from three different campaign settings, two of which are quite obscure, has made a questionable use of Nightsticks, has dug off a Shapechange form better than the Ethergaunt's...and is 2 feats ahead and 165k gp down.

On the other hand, the Wizard could choose not to try and mimick the Ethergaunt and do completely different things with all his feats, take powerful PrCs instead of a bland Wizard 20, etc. If he tries to not be a Black Ethergaunt, he can - whereas the Black Ethergaunt cannot untake his RHD to take levels in, say, Mindbender, or Dread Witch, or Fatespinner, or Cerebremancer, or...so that, more or less, balances things out in my mind.

My verdict: on the whole, the Black Ethergaunt is far from being put to shame by the comparison. But it's not a landslide victory by any means, either. In regard to this, I vote LA +4 for the Black Ethergaunt. Incidentally, I've also voted, for the Red Ethergaunt, for an LA that would put it 3 caster levels behind a Wizard of equal ECL.

It has taken me ages to do all of that, so I can't be bothered to do the same for the White Ethergaunt. I'll just suppose the "3 CLs above equal ECL Wizard" holds true there too, and as such vote for LA +5 for the White Ethergaunt.

[danielxcutter]

While "inflexible" would be hard to say for a creature with Wizard casting and an extremely high bonus to Int, the fact that from White onwards, the special abilities Ethergaunts have start to fall a bit behind compared to the varied prestige classes a "normal" Wizard can take is a point against them, if relatively minor.

Perhaps a more precise term would be "predetermined" - it is true that an Ethergaunt will not be able to spare many(if at all) levels for prestige classes, and thus lacks some of the versatility prestige classes can give, the sheer amount of spells from a high casting stat and a ridiculous DC even for lower-leveled spells might make up for it.

I'm personally not sure if I'd play one, but that's just my bias for having interesting and varied abilities. Many others will likely prefer having a much higher quality toolbox over having a marginally bigger one, I expect.

[Sutr]

My bad made a typo there and typed 15 instead of 16 HD. Definitly on me.

Also I don't disagree that I am low balling it; +3 is the bare minimum I would normally give it and I could see +4. I just feel people are underestimating Epic Spell Casting. You need 21 HD and 17 CL to take it so anything that would normally be a Tier 1 Caster that has an ECL of 21+ but less than 21 HD is instantly useless in all but the lowest OP of groups.

IMHO a straight human wizard 21 would make the 16 HD Black Ethergaunt look bad. With enough spell slots to burn or extra casters the Wizard can essentially transform themselves into said Black Ethergaunt with all it's special abilities. Permanently. As a swift action. And my the Wizard I mean all of the Wizard's party members.

I see the argument for +4 as well, mostly due to the threads point of making things playable. I just can't take epic spells like that as anything but homebrew. Especially when the printed ones are not in the same league.

[danielxcutter]

Let's ignore Epic Spellcasting for now. The other epic feats are fair game I suppose, but not that. The extent of how much Epic Spellcasting's broken is stupid, idiotic, stupidly idiotic, and idiotically stupid.

[Caelestion]

I think that any argument that includes "they both shapechange" is hardly a compelling one to make, quite frankly.

[liquidformat]

My bad made a typo there and typed 15 instead of 16 HD. Definitly on me.

Also I don't disagree that I am low balling it; +3 is the bare minimum I would normally give it and I could see +4. I just feel people are underestimating Epic Spell Casting. You need 21 HD and 17 CL to take it so anything that would normally be a Tier 1 Caster that has an ECL of 21+ but less than 21 HD is instantly useless in all but the lowest OP of groups.

IMHO a straight human wizard 21 would make the 16 HD Black Ethergaunt look bad. With enough spell slots to burn or extra casters the Wizard can essentially transform themselves into said Black Ethergaunt with all it's special abilities. Permanently. As a swift action. And my the Wizard I mean all of the Wizard's party members.

That was pretty much the point of my thread, the blacks are better than wizard 20 but not better enough in the face of epic spell casting.


I love how the monsters with innate casting usually stir up the most heated debates. :smalltongue:

If I recall the arrow demon and the MMIII trolls were pretty heated...


Let's ignore Epic Spellcasting for now. The other epic feats are fair game I suppose, but not that. The extent of how much Epic Spellcasting's broken is stupid, idiotic, stupidly idiotic, and idiotically stupid.

So I have played in about 10 games that were either fully epic or went into epic and I have yet to ever come across a DM willing to allow epic spell casting...

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, let's keep out the major broken crap. Time Stop? Eh, you've earned it. Gate? Okay. Shapechange abuse? Er... NO.

[remetagross]

I think that any argument that includes "they both shapechange" is hardly a compelling one to make, quite frankly.


Yeah, let's keep out the major broken crap. Time Stop? Eh, you've earned it. Gate? Okay. Shapechange abuse? Er... NO.

Well...that's your view, guys, but I honestly think that if a player is, in the first place, considering to play a Black Ethergaunt as a PC, he certainly is the kind of player that will consider using Shapechange as well. And I'm not talking about any super-high-powered Shapechange stuff like turning into a Solar and using its casting, then into a Zodar and using its Wish...Just Shapechanging into that immune-to-everything undead incorporeal swarm, for example. Just about anything, basically, means a ton of the racial features of the Ethergaunt are moot since they're replaced by those of the creature whose form you take.

[liquidformat]

Well...that's your view, guys, but I honestly think that if a player is, in the first place, considering to play a Black Ethergaunt as a PC, he certainly is the kind of player that will consider using Shapechange as well. And I'm not talking about any super-high-powered Shapechange stuff like turning into a Solar and using its casting, then into a Zodar and using its Wish...Just Shapechanging into that immune-to-everything undead incorporeal swarm, for example. Just about anything, basically, means a ton of the racial features of the Ethergaunt are moot since they're replaced by those of the creature whose form you take.

I am pretty sure as has been commented in the past any group that is actually allowing a more or less free range on monster classes and using the LAs of this project has a pretty solid understanding of the game and at the very least mid if not high op. In such a group/game you typically have gone over spells and expectations, knowing how much cheese and spell abuse will be allowed. As such it is reasonable that shapechange should be taken into account.

On the other hand if we are looking at this as 'we are optimizing around tier 3 and our LAs should reflect that' and using say a duskblade which is a solid tier 3 (as we are supposed to use the closest tier 3 reference point) well then we should be tacking on at least another LA maybe two to all three of these Ethergaunts....

[DeTess]

I agree that these are +5/+4. Massively better chassis than wizard means that they can't really be anything less, but it's not enough to lose 9ths over.

Also, @Zancloufer, I think inevitability has been using either which LA gets the most votes, or the median to determine which to go with when there's a wider field, so intentionally low-balling your estimates won't actually change anything (if the median is used) or actually hurt the chances of it becoming the LA you want (if inevitability looks at which level of LA gets the most votes).

[ExLibrisMortis]

OK, here's the comparison table between a Black Ethergaunt and a level 20 Wizard. [...]
Alright, here's my mindset: a player willing to use a Black Ethergaunt as a PC is at least a moderate optimizer.
Yet your moderately optimized wizard didn't take a single PrC level. I'm a bit confused that you rate "can take fifteen fewer levels in any casting PrC" as not mitigating the LA at all, since you are docking the ethergaunt a feat for not having a familiar.

Secondly, it's much more straightforward to assume the wizard shapechanged into a black ethergaunt and doesn't ever change that, instead of a nebulous selection of "better forms", especially given that your wizard seems dead-set on emulating the "high save DC" part of being an ethergaunt--and not very efficiently, at that--instead of improving the "using shapechange every day" part. In particular, I find that "cancelling out" Iron Will and Reserves of Strength against CL and hit points, or spell slots for gold pieces, does approximately nothing for making the comparison clearer. A simple "becomes a black ethergaunt for +3 to save DCs and all the ethergaunt's racial abilities", on the other hand, would be more efficient and more intuitively comparable.


When I look at your comparison, I think: "A wizard can be built so inefficiently, and still give an ethergaunt a run for their money". That doesn't suggest LA +4 at all.

[Zecrin]

Yet your moderately optimized wizard didn't take a single PrC level. I'm a bit confused that you rate "can take fifteen fewer levels in any casting PrC" as not mitigating the LA at all, since you are docking the ethergaunt a feat for not having a familiar.

Secondly, it's much more straightforward to assume the wizard shapechanged into a black ethergaunt and doesn't ever change that, instead of a nebulous selection of "better forms", especially given that your wizard seems dead-set on emulating the "high save DC" part of being an ethergaunt--and not very efficiently, at that--instead of improving the "using shapechange every day" part. In particular, I find that "cancelling out" Iron Will and Reserves of Strength against CL and hit points, or spell slots for gold pieces, does approximately nothing for making the comparison clearer. A simple "becomes a black ethergaunt for +3 to save DCs and all the ethergaunt's racial abilities", on the other hand, would be more efficient and more intuitively comparable.


When I look at your comparison, I think: "A wizard can be built so inefficiently, and still give an ethergaunt a run for their money". That doesn't suggest LA +4 at all.


I, for one, can't wait till we assign the Sarrukh a -0 LA because of the assume supernatural ability feat.

On a more serious note, I would like to point out that one can't really enjoy many of the benefits of PrCs like incantatrix, anima mage, master transmogrifist, sacred exorcist, mage of the arcane order, war weaver, ect... while using shapechange.

Also, shapechanging into an Ethergaunt, to my knowledge would not grant you any boost to your spell save DCs.

So at +4 LA the Wizard and Ethergaunt have the same number of 9th level spells (because the wizard is using one of them for shapechange), the wizard has +3 CL, and the ethergaunt has a very high bonus to spell save DCs. To me, it seems even with LA +4, and discounting all the Ethergaunts other supernatural abilities, the Ethergaunt has a flatly better spellcasting chassis than the wizard.

Even if the wizard uses polymorph any object to increase his intelligence, the ethergaunt will almost assuredly end with an intelligence 12 higher (4 from inherent bonuses and 8 from point buy), which is a +6 to save DCs.

I know that people keep saying that when Wizards hit 21 and pick up epic spellcasting, they'll be way stronger than the Ethergaunt. This is true. However, later into epic levels, I would argue that the Ethergaunt comes out on top, especially after it starts to pick up stuff like Ur-priest and Divine Metamagic.

[danielxcutter]

I think it really does depend on the level of play. If we're talking about non-epic ~ low 20s or so, the Ethergaunts will be very good Wizards but be a bit behind in various PrC abilities. Much more than that though, and they're probably going to come ahead... which is honestly true for a lot of monsters, if you ask me.

[remetagross]

Yet your moderately optimized wizard didn't take a single PrC level. I'm a bit confused that you rate "can take fifteen fewer levels in any casting PrC" as not mitigating the LA at all, since you are docking the ethergaunt a feat for not having a familiar.

Secondly, it's much more straightforward to assume the wizard shapechanged into a black ethergaunt and doesn't ever change that, instead of a nebulous selection of "better forms", especially given that your wizard seems dead-set on emulating the "high save DC" part of being an ethergaunt--and not very efficiently, at that--instead of improving the "using shapechange every day" part. In particular, I find that "cancelling out" Iron Will and Reserves of Strength against CL and hit points, or spell slots for gold pieces, does approximately nothing for making the comparison clearer. A simple "becomes a black ethergaunt for +3 to save DCs and all the ethergaunt's racial abilities", on the other hand, would be more efficient and more intuitively comparable.


When I look at your comparison, I think: "A wizard can be built so inefficiently, and still give an ethergaunt a run for their money". That doesn't suggest LA +4 at all.

Well, Shapechange does not give you the Int score of the form you change into, so I don't understand where your "becomes a black ethergaunt for +3 to save DCs" comes from. You'd need to first cast Polymorph Any Object (Black Ethergaunt), and then Shapechange (Black Ethergaunt), as has been pointed out earlier. Only then do you get all the Black Ethergaunt goodies including the +20 to Int.

But okay, I think I get your point, you're saying that converting feats into CL or spell slots into money is not quite as straightforward as I've put it. Then, if the Wizard 20 just casts the two abovementioned spells, he finds himself a fully functional Black Ethergaunt, except he has spent one 8th level and one 9th level spells - the only two spell slots he had in excess of the Black Ethergaunt - and his Black Ethergaunt goodies are susceptible to being dispelled, and only lasts 1 hour (the duration of Polymorph Any Object in this case). And then, the Black Ethergaunt has a total of 45 spell levels per day more than the Wizard - 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, 2 3rd level spells, 1 4th level spell, 2 5th level spells, 2 6th level spells, 1 7th level spell (and also 78 more HPs and a ton more skill points).

EDIT: as Zecrin has pointed out, Polymorph Any Object only gives you the Int score of a bog-standard Black Ethergaunt, not a PC one, so you'll end up with base Int 30 and not base Int 42 (+8 from point buy, +4 from inherent), so even during that 1-hour duration, you don't get the save DCs of the Ethergaunt.

The Wizard has a Familiar, 6 extra feats if he remains single-classed, or 2 extra feats and 15 levels of prestige class if he does not, and 3 extra caster levels.

So, for one hour per day, the Wizard gets to be a functional Black Ethergaunt with these big save DCs and racial abilities, in addition to his Familiar, extra feats and PrC class features. For the rest of the day, how do the latter three alone hold up against the Black Ethergaunt's +7 to save DC's compared to his and extra 45 spell levels, and immunity to spells of level 6th and lower, and +15 to AC, and almost twice as many HPs? Well, it's a difficult question to answer in a vacuum, but I think some well-chosen PrCs like 5 levels of Master Specialist then 10 levels of Ultimate Magus (qualifying with Spontaneous Divination ACF) can give him enough punch to compare favourably...but I also think some mediocre ones like 5 levels of Fatespinner then 10 levels of Alienist leave him quite weaker than the Black Ethergaunt. Hence I think the Wizard does not come out on top in each and every possible situation. Hence my suggested LA of +4.

[ExLibrisMortis]

My bad on shapechange and ability scores; you do need an extra spell, and I apologize.

On the other hand, don't forget that polymorph any object is permanent when cast twice, or when cast on a 34 INT wizard. It's one slot until dispelled.


I, for one, can't wait till we assign the Sarrukh a -0 LA because of the assume supernatural ability feat.
Any game that allows a full sarrukh in actual play (that is, under PC control) is probably broken enough that LA is meaningless :smalltongue:. But I take your point.


On a more serious note, I would like to point out that one can't really enjoy many of the benefits of PrCs like incantatrix, anima mage, master transmogrifist, sacred exorcist, mage of the arcane order, war weaver, ect... while using shapechange.
You mean the loss of (Su) abilities, I take it? Yes, it's true that if you want to use your PrC features in ethergaunt form, you'd want to select some PrCs that don't rely on supernatural abilities or only need to use their abilities a few times a day (Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, Archmage, that sort of thing). However, that's still a lot more than the ethergaunt has going for it--the wizard only temporarily loses access to the ability, compared to ethergaunts not even having them in the first place.

In general, you might say that if taking black ethergaunt form with shapechange is unattractive because your (Su) class features would be lost, then the black ethergaunt can't be bringing all that much to the table, right? Because at that point, it's clearly worse than your PrC features.

(For War Weavers, the loss of Intelligence probably doesn't matter too much, since you're casting buffs anyway.)


Also, shapechanging into an Ethergaunt, to my knowledge would not grant you any boost to your spell save DCs.
You end up with more Intelligence, that's what boosts the save DCs. But yes, it takes polymorph any object.


To me, it seems even with LA +4, and discounting all the Ethergaunts other supernatural abilities, the Ethergaunt has a flatly better spellcasting chassis than the wizard.
Compared to a straight wizard, perhaps. Compared to a prestiged wizard, no way.

You could go wizard 3/master specialist 10/archmage 5 (not a high-OP build by any means) and have CL 25, or CL 27 for your specialist spells. Is +4 to save DCs (41 vs. 49 Intelligence) worth the loss of 8 caster levels?

You could go wizard 10/swiftblade 10, and have an ethergaunt's casting (but potentially with +3 CL from Practiced Spellcaster) but casting an extra spell each turn.

You could go wizard 4/sorcerer 1/ultimate magus 10/whatever 5 and get 18th-level wizard casting with CL 22.

You could go rogue or scout 1/wizard 4/unseen seer 10/whatever 5 and get 19th-level wizard casting with +3 CL on Divinations, a bag of extra skill points, and 5d6 precision damage (before hunter's eye enters the equation).

(Hell, all of these have room for Circle Magic or Persistomancy.)

You could go wizard 9/wyrm wizard 1/halruaan elder 10 and get CL 60 and cheap metamagic for miles. And you can use reserve feats based on a 20th-level spell, that's always fun.

You could go wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 6/mind mage 10 and get 15th-level wizard casting and 19th-level psion manifesting with Persistomancy and +10 CL/ML and double Intelligence to the save DCs of psi-spell feats and delivering touch spells at range.

Most of these builds work just fine at ECL 18 or 19, of course (whatever level they get 9ths at, basically). I mean, there are a lot of options for spellcasting chassis out there, and while most of them come online very late, that's not a problem in this case. Ethergaunts aren't bad, but they don't weight up to a 20th-level wizard.


EDIT: as Zecrin has pointed out, Polymorph Any Object only gives you the Int score of a bog-standard Black Ethergaunt, not a PC one, so you'll end up with base Int 30 and not base Int 42 (+8 from point buy, +4 from inherent), so even during that 1-hour duration, you don't get the save DCs of the Ethergaunt.
You end up with 30 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 41, against the ethergaunt's 38 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 49. Compared to the basic wizard's Intelligence of 34, that's a +6 bonus or +3 to save DCs, but indeed, not as high as the ethergaunt's. You can use some of those bonus feats to pick up Spell Focus, perhaps :smalltongue:.

As for the dispellability: you'll still have better CL and access to CL-boosting PrCs, so your buffs, including your ethergauntness, will be better than the ethergaunt's, who will be well behind in CL, due to lack of class features and LA burden. Coincidentally, buffs are also more powerful than blasting, so that's another reason to be critical of that +20 racial INT.


Hence I think the Wizard does not come out on top in each and every possible situation.
Well, yes, you can build a wizard worse than a black ethergaunt. Wizards have an infamously low floor, and black ethergaunts have so many HD that you're limited in your ability to mess it up (just like you're limited in optimizing it). I generally assume that we're optimizing, though, and if you're picking bad PrCs, then you're also picking, I don't know, bad feats for the ethergaunt, or something--unoptimized to a similar degree. Of the classic wizard PrCs, most are more powerful than the ethergaunt's features.


Edit: I guess I feel that everyone's being a bit on the tentative when estimating the power of full-blown ECL 18-20 spellcasters. They're properly ******* ridiculously over-the-top powerful. Ethergaunt racial abilities are number-based, not unique-trick-based, so they don't rate that highly, in my opinion. Don't be afraid to give big numbers to a spellcaster! It's probably the least harmful thing they could be doing at ECL 18.

[Zecrin]

You end up with 30 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 41, against the ethergaunt's 38 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 49.

This isn't really a refutation of the rest of your post, but I think it would actually be:

30 base + 6 enhancement = 36 (+13)

18 base + 20 racial + 6 enhancement + 5 inherent + 4 level up + 3 age = 56 (+23).

I'm not convinced that you get to retain inherent bonuses which apply to your own ability scores when you replace those scores with those of another.

Also, if we give the Ethergaunt one extra level before 20, as you suggest, it can easily pick up the circle magic feat, which then causes wizards to lose the biggest edge they currently have over Ethegaunts: higher CL.

[Mystic Muse]

+5 and +4 LA seems at least reasonable to me. I would probably at least consider playing them at their currrnt LAs if I got 9ths.

If I didn't, I don't think I would play one at all.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Compared to a straight wizard, perhaps. Compared to a prestiged wizard, no way.

Very true, but I don't think that's a meaningful comparison to make. The comparison point for the thread is, ideally, T3 or even T4. Wizards are used for the Ethergaunts because it's very convenient; the two are very directly comparable despite wizards being vastly more powerful than the balance point. But adding prestige classes onto that doesn't really serve a purpose; it both complicates the comparison and moves it further from the ideal comparison point. Sure there's opportunity cost, but full casters don't really need to prestige like martials often do in order to keep acquiring useful features at a reasonable rate, so it's not actually hurting them, just making them not even stronger than T3 than they already were.

[Remuko]

On the other hand if we are looking at this as 'we are optimizing around tier 3 and our LAs should reflect that' and using say a duskblade which is a solid tier 3 (as we are supposed to use the closest tier 3 reference point) well then we should be tacking on at least another LA maybe two to all three of these Ethergaunts....

Thats not how we do this though. The rule of the threads is "closest facsimile to the monster in question, minimum tier 3" (iirc) This thing is clearly a wizard+ so it should only be compared to a tier 1 class like Wizard.


The comparison point for the thread is, ideally, T3 or even T4.

Its not, see my reply to liquidformat above.

[Zecrin]

Thats not how we do this though. The rule of the threads is "closest facsimile to the monster in question, minimum tier 3" (iirc) This thing is clearly a wizard+ so it should only be compared to a tier 1 class like Wizard.

Its not, see my reply to liquidformat above.

True, although, this doesn't really answer the question of whether the "best point of comparison" is the wizard 20, the wizard 10 / mage of the arcane order 10, or focused specialist (transmutation) divination variant butterfly familiar wizard 5/ master specialist 5/ incantatrix 10.

Some individuals are arguing for a lower LA because they say the last option is the best point of comparison. While others, who choose the first option, argue the opposite. Either way, it seems ironic that both camps (myself included), try to argue for an LA using a particular standard, by arguing that our standard does not currently make a good point of comparison for the Ethergaunt.

[Sutr]

Thats not how we do this though. The rule of the threads is "closest facsimile to the monster in question, minimum tier 3" (iirc) This thing is clearly a wizard+ so it should only be compared to a tier 1 class like Wizard.



Its not, see my reply to liquidformat above.

Being Pendantic is one of my flaws, but from the archive minimum tier 4.


The guideline for assigning LA is as follows: a monster is compared to the most similar class from tier 1 to 4 (so a nymph would be compared to a druid, a naztharune rakshasa to a rogue, and an ogre to a barbarian), and given an LA that makes it comparable to a PC of equal ECL (for example, a +1 LA centaur with a single barbarian level is considered to be about on par with a 6th-level orc barbarian, while a +0 LA centaur would be too strong).

Most of the debate in this thread are from people like me who see using the lowest power facsimile as best so it fits the most number of games against those who say an optimized caster can do better and thus its not a big deal. I see benefits and flaws to both views.

[Debatra]

But when a creature has actual spellcasting as a class, it's safe to say that same class is a good comparison point.

[Dimers]

I'll vote LA +5 for both black and white. No individual aspect of a black EG measures up to a well-made epic spell, but they have way more than one aspect. The white EG's gaze attack, enslave, stat bumps, senses, immunities and skill list make up for some lost casting, so it could contribute a fair share in an equally optimized Tier 1 level 16 party.

[Caelestion]

But when a creature has actual spellcasting as a class, it's safe to say that same class is a good comparison point.

Well, yes, but assuming a whole bunch of prestige classes as standard because "any optimised wizard would do so" is very much not the same thing.

[danielxcutter]

Well, yes, but assuming a whole bunch of prestige classes as standard because "any optimised wizard would do so" is very much not the same thing.

This is quite true - and also, it really does depend on the level of play. If you're going high-to-epic level of play, then Ethergaunts can very well grab a short 5 level PrC like Fatespinner or Archmage. And honestly, nobody in their right mind is going to compare them to stuff like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[remetagross]

In general, you might say that if taking black ethergaunt form with shapechange is unattractive because your (Su) class features would be lost, then the black ethergaunt can't be bringing all that much to the table, right? Because at that point, it's clearly worse than your PrC features.

That was basically my point about the Ethergaunt and the Wizard both Shapechanging into something other than a Black Ethergaunt.



You end up with 30 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 41, against the ethergaunt's 38 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 49. Compared to the basic wizard's Intelligence of 34, that's a +6 bonus or +3 to save DCs, but indeed, not as high as the ethergaunt's. You can use some of those bonus feats to pick up Spell Focus, perhaps :smalltongue:.

I'm in the opinion of Zecrin in that I'm not quite convinced inherent bonuses carry over from your original form. Assuming they don't, that'd put the Int score of the PaO'ed Wizard to 36. Not much of a gain over the Wizard's original 34, and the save DC advantage the Black Ethergaunt has is +6.


Compared to a straight wizard, perhaps. Compared to a prestiged wizard, no way.

That's actually the crux of the issue. My stance would rather be: "Compared to a straight wizard, perhaps. Compared to a prestiged wizard, perhaps."


You could go wizard 3/master specialist 10/archmage 5 (not a high-OP build by any means) and have CL 25, or CL 27 for your specialist spells. Is +4 to save DCs (41 vs. 49 Intelligence) worth the loss of 8 caster levels?

With the above take on PaO Int increase, it's a +6 to save DCs, not a +4: and don't forget the extra 70 spell levels the Black Ethergaunt gets (base 45 + 25 for the five 5th-level spell slots sacrificed). That's a not insignificant trade-off: while not all spells allow a save DC, not all spells allow SR either, or care that much about caster level. I'm not that sure the Wizard comes out ahead.


You could go wizard 10/swiftblade 10, and have an ethergaunt's casting (but potentially with +3 CL from Practiced Spellcaster) but casting an extra spell each turn.
Yes, but you'd run dry after two encounters, while the Ethergaunt has enough juice for three more after these. Besides, no 9th level spells. I'd take the Ethergaunt.


You could go wizard 4/sorcerer 1/ultimate magus 10/whatever 5 and get 18th-level wizard casting with CL 22.
Same remark as for the Archmage. The Ethergaunt now has 1 extra 9th level spell, the same number of 8th level spells, and yet another 7th level spell more than the Wizard.



You could go rogue or scout 1/wizard 4/unseen seer 10/whatever 5 and get 19th-level wizard casting with +3 CL on Divinations, a bag of extra skill points, and 5d6 precision damage (before hunter's eye enters the equation).
This one's neat.

(Hell, all of these have room for Circle Magic or Persistomancy.)



You could go wizard 9/wyrm wizard 1/halruaan elder 10 and get CL 60 and cheap metamagic for miles. And you can use reserve feats based on a 20th-level spell, that's always fun.

You could go wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 6/mind mage 10 and get 15th-level wizard casting and 19th-level psion manifesting with Persistomancy and +10 CL/ML and double Intelligence to the save DCs of psi-spell feats and delivering touch spells at range.
These clearly blow the Ethergaunt out of the water. But these are a tad more than "moderately optimized", in my opinion.



Most of these builds work just fine at ECL 18 or 19, of course (whatever level they get 9ths at, basically). I mean, there are a lot of options for spellcasting chassis out there, and while most of them come online very late, that's not a problem in this case. Ethergaunts aren't bad, but they don't weight up to a 20th-level wizard.
All of these builds except for the latter two have much less stamina than the Black Ethergaunt when it comes to number of spell slots/day, and in my humble opinion that offsets quite a lot of the stuff they have to offer.






As for the dispellability: you'll still have better CL and access to CL-boosting PrCs, so your buffs, including your ethergauntness, will be better than the ethergaunt's, who will be well behind in CL, due to lack of class features and LA burden. Coincidentally, buffs are also more powerful than blasting, so that's another reason to be critical of that +20 racial INT.


I wouldn't say the Ethergaunt's Ethergauntness is weaker to dispel attempts than the Wizard's, but to each his own I guess :smalltongue: I get your overall point, though.



Well, yes, you can build a wizard worse than a black ethergaunt. Wizards have an infamously low floor, and black ethergaunts have so many HD that you're limited in your ability to mess it up (just like you're limited in optimizing it). I generally assume that we're optimizing, though, and if you're picking bad PrCs, then you're also picking, I don't know, bad feats for the ethergaunt, or something--unoptimized to a similar degree. Of the classic wizard PrCs, most are more powerful than the ethergaunt's features.

That's where I disagree. The "classic wizard PrCs" are, in my mind, classes like Alienist, Dread Witch, Fatespinner, Master Specialist, Spellwarp Sniper...they either don't offer that powerful class features, or they do but then you lose a caster level. In that regard, I don't see them as more powerful than the ethergaunt's features. If I understand correctly, you have a higher power level in mind when saying "the classic wizard PrCs", in particular not a single PrC but a whole build involving a modicum of moving parts, that I see as a bit more involved and optimized than what I consider "classic". As such, I see these as a tad above the "moderately optimized Wizard" I've had in mind. Hence my assessment.

To be fair, I think you've sort of convinced me that a bunch of possible builds involving Wizards 20 can either utterly trounce the Ethergaunt or favorably compare to it. But there are still a bunch that do not, and if you shave off one point of LA, my guess is that the lost spell slots, bonus feat, class features etc. of the Wizard 19 would certainly make it weaker than the Ethergaunt. So maybe now I think it's a weak LA +4, but it's an LA +4 still.

[danielxcutter]

What are "powerful PrCs", though? That's a bit too vague...

Pretty sure most 5 level PrCs aren't really that powerful, though.

[liquidformat]

On the other hand, don't forget that polymorph any object is permanent when cast twice, or when cast on a 34 INT wizard. It's one slot until dispelled.

So First off I am going with theoretical optimization on the double casting of PAO becomes permanent as I have never come across a dm putting up with that. Also I would question the validity of how you are counting up duration factors if having 34 int gives your wizard permanent duration on your PAO from my count and the way I have seen DM let it be used in game 34 int gives it a 4 which ends up being a 3 hr duration.



a lot of high end optimization stuff

Honestly a lot of what you are saying here is actually highlighting that wizard might not be a good comparison point and also reinforcing Black as needing a higher LA. If you try hard and have a very high level grasp of wizards, spells, and prcs you can make a standard race wizard that can compete with a Black in some aspects, however, you need to have the understanding to do that. So as pointed out wizard has a pretty low floor badly designed ones can sit in tier 5 quite comfortably whereas they also have a very high ceiling and with a well designed one can quite possibly even go tier 0. On the other hand Blacks at +4 LA have a very high floor competing quite well with a moderately optimized wizard.

Remember the goal of this exercise isn't look at this wild build I can have to justify why every monster should get a -0 LA. The goal here is this monster comparable to a (fill in the blank with class that has moderate optimization centered around tier 3 using classes between tier 1-4 that is the 'closest' comparison point). Yeah I believe it is reasonable to look at a build at a moderate optimization level like here is barb x/warblade y/prc z rather than straight barbarian or here is a wiz x/fiendbinder y/ other prc z but on the other hand saying here is how I can get my cl up to 60 in 20 levels doesn't seem like a particularly useful comparison point.

[Inevitability]

The forum ate my previous post, but +5 for the white and +4 for the black ethergaunt both received an absolute majority in votes.

Fensir post coming up!

[Inevitability]

Fensir

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/5/59/Fensir.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20120401063603

At first glance, Fensirs seem like relatively straightforward beatsticks. They have four giant RHD, large size, a reasonable amount of strength and a smaller boost to constitution, +6 natural armor, and of course the rock throwing and catching we're used to from giants. They get a few odd magic abilities: the power to monitor the status of their identical twin, at-will Transmute Mud To Rock, and at-will Transmute Rock To Mud, but all in all they are fairly typical bulky beatsticks.

Except they also have 5th-level wizard casting.

This creates a difficult situation. At +1 LA, a fensir is still bulkier, more versatile, and much stronger than a 5th-level wizard, while having essentially the same intelligence. Reasons to pick the wizard are small, and on the whole the fensir is superior.

A +2 LA would put fensirs slightly behind in casting and feats (while still having better bulk), which might be enough to balance them out? They still seem like a strong choice for gish builds, though.

For now, I'll go with +2, though the issues of rating what's essentially an ogre/wizard gestalt aren't easily resolved.


Rakka

Rakkas are fensirs who, in what's undoubtedly a smart evolutionary move (or more likely, the whim of a Chaotic god), have turned enormous, ravenous, and nearly insentient. Huge size is neat, and the better strength and constitution (and wisdom, somehow) are notable as well, but 12 HD and the loss of casting hurt a lot.

Aside from the chassis upgrade and casting downgrade, rakka only really distinguish themselves by having the ability to place a Dying Curse (essentially a Geas) on those responsible for killing it. Because this involves dying, I can't really recommend it to rakka PCs.

-0 LA: there's better giants out there, and most of them actually get to have skill points.

[Zecrin]

I feel as if sunlight vulnerability is a HUGE drawback. Currently, I'd vote to give the Fensir a LA +1. Rakka is a clear -0.

[Unavenger]

Yeah, getting one-shotted by nice weather is no fun. I'll let them have the +1, but no more. -0 for the big one.

(Also, +5 and +4, says WotC. Wow.)

[Caelestion]

What's the specifics on the sunlight vulnerability?

[remetagross]

If a Fensir is exposed to direct sunlight, it's turned to stone at once, with no save allowed. If exposed to Sunburst, Sunbeam or that kind of spell, it gets a Fort save lest it be turned to stone, in addition to the normal effects of the spell.
It's a considerable weakness that'll need some amount of resource to be negated. For this Reason, I feel LA +2 is just fine for the Fensir. LA -0 for the bigger version.

[Efrate]

+2 and -0. They are like a 1.5 but I am more comfortable with a +2 than a +1.

[Caelestion]

That is a drawback, yes, but I don't think that we should really deduct points for a disadvantage that is simply going to be hand-waved or bypassed to be conventionally playable.

As such, I'll stick with LA +2 for the wizard caster and LA -0 for the large hulk.

[Mike Miller]

That is a drawback, yes, but I don't think that we should really deduct points for a disadvantage that is simply going to be hand-waved or bypassed to be conventionally playable.

As such, I'll stick with LA +2 for the wizard caster and LA -0 for the large hulk.

I agree with this. Maybe an asterisk is warranted. I vote +2 and -0 respectively. If we consider an asterisk... The same, but with an asterisk on the 2, I guess.

[Thurbane]

Fensir


Large giant (extraplanar) with reach
4RHD (not amazing: medium BAB, 1 good save - but does come with MWP)
40 ft speed: not bad.
+6 natural AC: also not bad.
Rock throwing: meh.
Spell-like abilities: at will transmute rock to mud and transmute mud to rock. A pair of at will 5th levels spells, while situational, is pretty nice. You can combo to trap enemies in rock.
Spells as a 5th level Wizard: nice. I higher than your HD.
Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision: decent senses.
Rock catching: very situational.
Sense twin: mostly for fluff.
Sunlight vulnerability: just like Tolkien trolls, you turn to stone in sunlight. No save. Ouch. There are defences (similar to what Vampires can use), but they are generally costly and inconvenient.
Str +10 Dex +2 Con +4 Int +2 Wis +2 Cha -4: net +16. Cha is likely to be a dump stat, so the penalty doesn't hurt too much.
Small, and not that great, racial skill list. Noticeably lacking any skills a Wizard will need.
Brew potion as a bonus feat - not amazing, but any bonus feats are nice. Will also help qualify for PrCs that require item creation feats.

Large humanoid in form, can speak - gear and class progression should be no issue. You could make a workable gish from their chassis: innate MWP is nice for this, as is large size/reach. Main drawback is sunlight vulnerability, which can be a headache. There are some items that give immunity to petrification, from memory? Their fluff indicates they all know how to make a potion that acts as stone to flesh, but only for Fensirs. There was a recent thread talking about how Vampires defend themselves from sunlight, so their may be other tactics too.

Casting of 1 level about their HD means at least LA +1. Books says +5. I'm happy to go along with LA +2 at this point.

Also in agreement with LA -0 for Rakka.

[Caelestion]

Funny, my first thought on reading about their vulnerability was that they were Tolkienesque trolls. Then again, The Hobbit was the first ever book I bought myself.

[Sutr]

+2 verging on +3 and without the sunlight vulnerability I'd probably vote that. As is I kinda see the the sunlight vulnerability similarly to item familiar its either going to be used and have the DM destroy the character, or not used and massively rewarded if we give the creature a low LA because of it. -0 for the Rakka because its just bad.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What did we give previous monsters with sunlight vulnerability? An asterisk or no? Not being able to travel in sunlight is a pretty bad weakness, but it's very likely to be dealt with "for cheap" (i.e. DM intervention rather than xp/gp expenditure), which kind of diminishes its importance in rating the fensir.

Fensir are eligible for Primordial Giant, which grants +4 Intelligence/Charisma (costs you +4 Strength/+2 Constitution, though). Nice if you're going full caster.

Fensir are gishy, but higher-power gishy (i.e. (nearly) full caster, wizard-based, not bard- or psywar-gishy), so that's my comparison. They enter Spellsword as fensir 4/wizard 2 (assuming you do need a wizard level for a PrC to advance), which isn't behind a typical bab 2/wizard 4 build, but does have two extra levels of casting. Hence, as a gish, it's probably good at +2. As a full caster, perhaps +1 would be appropriate, since physical stats aren't that useful, and your PrC entry is delayed (a fensir 4+1/wizard 1 enters a typical "8 ranks in x" PrC a level late, due to the LA, and that's assuming you can find the skill points--you may even have to burn a feat getting extra class skills). Then again, if you use Primordial Giant to shift your stats around, you end up with +6 Intelligence, which is pretty close to being worth it. Hence I'll agree with +2. And -0 for the crappy one.

[Debatra]

My votes go to either +2* or +3 for the normal Fensir, -0 for the Rakka.

[Inevitability]

What did we give previous monsters with sunlight vulnerability? An asterisk or no? Not being able to travel in sunlight is a pretty bad weakness, but it's very likely to be dealt with "for cheap" (i.e. DM intervention rather than xp/gp expenditure), which kind of diminishes its importance in rating the fensir.

Fensir are eligible for Primordial Giant, which grants +4 Intelligence/Charisma (costs you +4 Strength/+2 Constitution, though). Nice if you're going full caster.

Fensir are gishy, but higher-power gishy (i.e. (nearly) full caster, wizard-based, not bard- or psywar-gishy), so that's my comparison. They enter Spellsword as fensir 4/wizard 2 (assuming you do need a wizard level for a PrC to advance), which isn't behind a typical bab 2/wizard 4 build, but does have two extra levels of casting. Hence, as a gish, it's probably good at +2. As a full caster, perhaps +1 would be appropriate, since physical stats aren't that useful, and your PrC entry is delayed (a fensir 4+1/wizard 1 enters a typical "8 ranks in x" PrC a level late, due to the LA, and that's assuming you can find the skill points--you may even have to burn a feat getting extra class skills). Then again, if you use Primordial Giant to shift your stats around, you end up with +6 Intelligence, which is pretty close to being worth it. Hence I'll agree with +2. And -0 for the crappy one.

Most sun-vulnerable monsters either had ways to get around it or didn't suffer quite as much.

That said, there's ways to mitigate it. An at-will continuous item of Cloak of Dark Power is relatively cheap. A small movable cover isn't hard to justify, and 20 strength means encumbrance shouldn't be a problem. Endure Sunlight, from libris mortis, isn't a long-term solution, but it does let you act normally for long enough to drop a No Light cantrip or teleport to safety. It might even be as easy as wearing 'clothing that covers the body completely', which is explicitly enough to protect vampires from daylight. That, or just don't go outside during the day.


I forgot about primordial giant, which is indeed a very nice combo with fensir.

[Sutr]

Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?

[danielxcutter]

Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?

Eh, it's a CR +0, LA +0 template by default anyways. Nobody really thinks it's worth LA, apparently.

[lord_khaine]

I vote LA +3 for the wizard guys.
Closest point of comparison seems to be a fighter/wizard gish.
And these guys measure quite well up to a fighter 2 /wizard 5.

Yes they do have sunlight vulnerability.
But im also assuming that will mainly become a rp hinderance.

[danielxcutter]

I vote LA +3 for the wizard guys.
Closest point of comparison seems to be a fighter/wizard gish.
And these guys measure quite well up to a fighter 2 /wizard 5.

Yes they do have sunlight vulnerability.
But im also assuming that will mainly become a rp hinderance.

Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?

[Bavarian itP]

Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?

Borrowing an umbrella from the MitD.

[Caelestion]

Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?

You do it at night. What sort of GM is going to accept a player into the party who literally petrifies in sunlight without having some way to mitigate that?

[Thurbane]

I was looking for means of being immune to petrification, but they are far more limited than I remember.


Amulet of Inviolate Form: only has 7 charges, and from my reading, you would need to expend 1 charge every round.
Ruby Cincture of Immutability: this may be more promising - "Once per day, you can instantly counter any effect that would significantly change your bodily form or composition.". Would this mean you are protected from ongoing effects, or would it only protect you for 1 round?
Haagenti (vestige): Immunity to Transformation - unfortunately, you would still be petrified, but can use a free action each round at the start of your turn to undo it. Anima Mage can let you access the vestige (although your Cha penalty may hurt if you go down this road - unless you are Primordial). Or simply using the Improved Bind Vestige feat.
Saint Template: with its unwelcome LA.
Dragon Ascendant 3: good luck meeting the reqs.
Proof against transmutation: should work, but as a +5 armor ability, is going to be costly.
I think there may be a soul meld as well?

[liquidformat]

Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?

Nope it is its own template that should be evaluated separately, though things like that can be very helpful to talk about since we do normally talk a bit about progression and optimization when doing these.


I was looking for means of being immune to petrification, but they are far more limited than I remember.


Amulet of Inviolate Form: only has 7 charges, and from my reading, you would need to expend 1 charge every round.
Ruby Cincture of Immutability: this may be more promising - "Once per day, you can instantly counter any effect that would significantly change your bodily form or composition.". Would this mean you are protected from ongoing effects, or would it only protect you for 1 round?
Haagenti (vestige): Immunity to Transformation - unfortunately, you would still be petrified, but can use a free action each round at the start of your turn to undo it. Anima Mage can let you access the vestige (although your Cha penalty may hurt if you go down this road - unless you are Primordial). Or simply using the Improved Bind Vestige feat.
Saint Template: with its unwelcome LA.
Dragon Ascendant 3: good luck meeting the reqs.
Proof against transmutation: should work, but as a +5 armor ability, is going to be costly.
I think there may be a soul meld as well?


Might be easier to look at items that give fog or darkness as constant effects then ways to see through them. Add in Endure Sunlight as a stopgap for when your effects get dispelled and should be pretty decent.

AFB but don't Fensir have a size increase with like 1 rhd increase, or am I thinking of a different monster?

[Thurbane]

Might be easier to look at items that give fog or darkness as constant effects then ways to see through them. Add in Endure Sunlight as a stopgap for when your effects get dispelled and should be pretty decent.

True, I was looking at different tactics. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600469-Specific-item-making-vampire-a-day-walker) has some relevant stuff (a Drow artifact, Cloak of Dark Power, Liquid Night etc.).


AFB but don't Fensir have a size increase with like 1 rhd increase, or am I thinking of a different monster?

Might be thinking of something different: "Advancement: By character class". It has a favored class of Wizard, which makes sense.

[Mike Miller]

It is amusing you bring up the WLD, because there is an item that makes you immune to petrification in it. I am afb now, so I can't check for the name.

[Thurbane]

Petrification Immunity feat from Serpent Kingdoms would work, if you can qualify.

Would the Yellow Veil of the IotSV work?

[Debatra]

This is starting to sound like a more reasonable version of "Iron Heart Surge the sun". :smallcool:

[liquidformat]

Might be thinking of something different: "Advancement: By character class". It has a favored class of Wizard, which makes sense.

Yeah thinking of the Lesser Flame Snake, the other night I was looking forward at what we would see in the near future and remember one of the monsters in a group only needed an rhd to increase in size...

Anyways I think +2 and -0 seem fair for these; +2 seems well balanced with other gish

[Dimers]

I sing along with the choir: LA +2 for the caster, LA -0 for the thug. The sunlight issues mostly* just mean the PC has to pay a resource cost other PCs don't, because a DM who allows a fensir without allowing a mitigation won't have a game very long.

* Mostly. There's a way to remove ANY kind of protection.

[lord_khaine]

Really dont think +2 LA makes sense. Since its casting above its HD, then it means that it would get to outdo the fighter,
while being almost equal to a regular wizard, with vastly improved stats and hp in return for a single caster level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Really dont think +2 LA makes sense. Since its casting above its HD, then it means that it would get to outdo the fighter,
while being almost equal to a regular wizard, with vastly improved stats and hp in return for a single caster level.
Well, it could also be a full caster--which is as much its natural role as gishing, given that it's got casting beyond its HD--and in that case LA +2 would be on the high side, since it barely has anything for a caster (besides qualifying for Primordial Giant, which isn't really creditable to the fensir itself).

At LA +2, a fensir has the same base attack as a wizard, less casting, worse skills, and worse class features. That second point of LA is effectively a dead level that ensures a fensir is going to be a little behind in base attack, casting, skills, and class features, compared to a human gish. I think higher physical stats are a fair trade for that.

[danielxcutter]

Let's see... at LA +2, a Fensir Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 would just manage to reach the benchmark of BAB +16 and 9th-level spells. Doesn't sound too bad.

[Thurbane]

Let's see... at LA +2, a Fensir Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 would just manage to reach the benchmark of BAB +16 and 9th-level spells. Doesn't sound too bad.

Whats the Fighter 1 for?

[danielxcutter]

Whats the Fighter 1 for?

Bonus feat and armor proficiency. Plus it allows you to swap out a level of Eldritch Knight for Spellsword.

It's not necessary, but I don't think it's an unforgivable sin.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bonus feat and armor proficiency. Plus it allows you to swap out a level of Eldritch Knight for Spellsword.

It's not necessary, but I don't think it's an unforgivable sin.
It costs you a level of casting and doesn't get you more base attack. Since you'll cast greater luminous armour for AC, the armour proficiency doesn't do much either. Then again, you still hit 9ths at level 20, so... it's forgivable at level 20? I'd rather go for warblade than fighter, though. Having a stance and a couple of maneuvers just makes melee a bit more interesting. (As an aside: going by the rules in ToB, your initiator level drops from 2 to 1 when taking warblade 1 after 4 RHD. The calculation switches from "half character level" (includes HD) to "initiating class level plus half other class levels" (does not include HD). I'd probably houserule that, though, and then you'd get to pick 2nd-level maneuvers. Battle Leader's Charge isn't bad, especially with bladerager troll form.)

Swapping out EK for Spellsword doesn't do much, since you only get the ASF reduction, which isn't that relevant with AC in the build.

[Inevitability]

Feytouched

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/5/5e/Ff_Feytouched.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20120422044425

An actual PC-intended race! Lo and behold!

Feytouched are fey with 1 RHD (which can be swapped out for a class level). They receive +2 dexterity, +2 charisma, and -2 constitution, immunity to mind-affecting effects, and the ability to cast Charm person 1/day.

Compared to most +1 LA races, this seems slightly underwhelming, to the point where only niche builds that desperately want a fey typing would even bother with the race (and even then; duskling and killoren are probably better options). However, at +0 LA the net +2 to abilities, free level 1 spell, and blanket immunity to a common attack form seem overwhelming. -2 constitution stings, but doesn't quite balance out all this (or does it?)

For now I'll assign +1 here, but I recommend allowing LA buyoff. +0 might be more reasonable in a campaign without buyoff, but I'm not sure.

[Thurbane]

Fey Touched are an interesting case.

They definitely aren't a strong +1 race, but net +2 to abilities are immunity to mind affecting is a bit strong for LA +0.

For now mark me down as LA +1, but I may reconsider after I've seen arguments.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Noteworthily, Feytouched have both a racial class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (letting you play one at 0 LA in exchange for losing some of the features) and a transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) that lets them become a full Half-Fey for just one LA. You could arguably combine the two, but that risks hard looks from your DM.

Also, it looks like rather than having immunity to mind-affecting, feytouched have immunity to the entire Enchantment school of magic (or was that changed with the 3.5 update/errata?). Don't know if that's an upgrade or a downgrade, though. Nope, that's Half-Fey. My B.

[DeTess]

IIRC, the fey typing also means that they can't be targeted by humanoid only spells(which might be a double-edged sword, but is probably a net gain) and some spells like alter self get different options that are generally more powerful than what a humanoid would get.

I'd say this one needs to be LA +1 as it gets enough that it'd beat all LA 0 races in its niche. It's not a particularly strong LA +1 though.

[Dimers]

I'll say LA +0. Immunity to mind-affecting has its downsides (e.g. no morale bonuses) and rarely comes into play at low levels IME. It's valuable at high levels, when your once-per-day charm and your net +2 stat will be meaningless. And being immune to mind effects doesn't make you immune to mindscrews based on illusions or social interaction. I don't see this as better than a human.

PoeticallyPsyco, my copy of Fiend Folio says mind-affecting rather than enchantment, and the errata document I found online has no Feytouched entry. Can you describe your book's print run or edition?

[TotallyNotEvil]

+1 is pretty easy to buy off anyway. While a weak-ish +1, the immunity is nothing to scoff at and only gets better as levels rise.

[Caelestion]

This is definitely better than +0, so LA +1 it has to be.

[danielxcutter]

They also qualify for Charming the Arrows, which could be nice for a Cha-based archer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'll say LA +0. Immunity to mind-affecting has its downsides (e.g. no morale bonuses) and rarely comes into play at low levels IME. It's valuable at high levels, when your once-per-day charm and your net +2 stat will be meaningless. And being immune to mind effects doesn't make you immune to mindscrews based on illusions or social interaction. I don't see this as better than a human.
I agree. It's not a good start if your feytouched bard is immune to their own Inspire Courage. Feytouched aren't better than the best LA +0 races (bonus feat races, kobolds, illumians, whisper gnomes, water orcs, etcetera). LA +0.