(3.5) Type Changes (Outsiders vs Undead)

[Blue Alu]

I know this is an old question, 'cause I've been having different versions of this conversation for over a decade...

In this instance the question is in the following form:

In Races of Stone, there's a playable race called the Stonechildren. They're Typed as Outsider (Earth, Extraplanar), and they look like a lot of fun to play for something a bit different.

But if, say, they became a lich (like through Dread Necromancer class progression), are they now an Undead (Augmented Outsider, Earth, Extraplanar) or, following the Savage Species rule about top-tier Types staying as they are once you have them, do they remain an Outsider and just have some shenanigans with an Undead subtype?

'Cause I can find examples of extraplanar Undead, I can't find examples of the inverse.

[hamishspence]

I know this is an old question, 'cause I've been having different versions of this conversation for over a decade...

In this instance the question is in the following form:

In Races of Stone, there's a playable race called the Stonechildren. They're Typed as Outsider (Earth, Extraplanar), and they look like a lot of fun to play for something a bit different.

But if, say, they became a lich (like through Dread Necromancer class progression), are they now an Undead (Earth, Extraplanar) or, following the Savage Species rule about top-tier Types staying as they are once you have them, do they remain an Outsider and just have some shenanigans with an Undead subtype?
It only specifies Constructs and Undead as top tier types that cannot change - no amount of templating will change an Undead into a non-undead. Presumably, Outsider, while listed as the same tier, is in practice a tier below.

The type pyramid was created before the Extraplanar subtype was - hence the claim that "once a creature ceases to be a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an Outsider and stays one" - which in 3.5 is not true - there are Extraplanar non-outsiders.

Undead is a type, not a subtype. And many undead templates say "any living creature". So presumably, an Undead Outsider would have the Undead type, with Outsider having been demoted to subtype.

When a type is demoted to a subtype, it gains the term "augmented" . Libris mortis example - an animal with the Revived Fossil template.

There, it's: Undead (Augmented Animal).

So using this as precedent, I'd say an Undead Outsider's statblock would be "Undead (Augmented Outsider)".

[Blue Alu]

It only specifies Constructs and Undead as top tier types that cannot change - no amount of templating will change an Undead into a non-undead. Presumably, Outsider, while listed as the same tier, is in practice a tier below.

The type pyramid was created before the Extraplanar subtype was - hence the claim that "once a creature ceases to be a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an Outsider and stays one" - which in 3.5 is not true - there are Extraplanar non-outsiders.

Undead is a type, not a subtype. And many undead templates say "any living creature". So presumably, an Undead Outsider would have the Undead type, with Outsider having been demoted to subtype.

When a type is demoted to a subtype, it gains the term "augmented" . Libris mortis example - an animal with the Revived Fossil template.

There, it's: Undead (Augmented Animal).

So using this as precedent, I'd say an Undead Outsider's statblock would be "Undead (Augmented Outsider)".The Savage Species quote also doesn't quite work in the context of Outsider (Native) creatures either... but it does indicate that once an Outsider always an Outsider, which is still basically equal with becoming Undead or a Construct.

Logically though in the inverse, if a lich took the Exemplar prestige class, they'd eventually become an Outsider (Augmented Undead, Native)? It doesn't really make sense for them not to go that way, since they ascend to Outsider-hood as part of the class...

So... does the new one just trump the old one? Is that the working practice? It seems to be what the Augmented subtype implies.

And if you start as an Outsider (Earth, Extraplanar), become a lich, and then max out something like Exemplar, do you wind up as an Outsider (Augmented Undead, Earth, Native)?

[Khedrac]

There appears to be some confustion happening regarding the Extraplanar "quality" - any and all creatures gain the Extraplanar "quality" when they are not on their home plane - this is important when wielding starmetal weapons and casting holy word and the like - but it has nothing to do with being an Outsider.

I think there is one printed Undead Outsider, but I may be wrong as I cannot remember which it is supposed to be.

[Blue Alu]

Closest I've found is the Entropic Reaper from Libris Mortis which is an undead from Limbo - Undead (Extraplanar, Chaotic). Likewise the example Necromental is an Undead (Augmented Elemental, Earth, Extraplanar).

...Libris Mortis' entry for variant lichdom for evil Outsiders (the lichfiend pp157-158) doesn't really go into Type specifics. It says they keep their old traits and gain the typical traits of a lich plus some tweaks... but doesn't go into Types (so presumably Undead (Augmented Outsider, Evil)).

[hamishspence]

But if, say, they became a lich (like through Dread Necromancer class progression), are they now an Undead (Augmented Outsider, Earth, Extraplanar) or, following the Savage Species rule about top-tier Types staying as they are once you have them, do they remain an Outsider and just have some shenanigans with an Undead subtype?

The Dread Necromancer class specifically states that only humanoid Dread Necromancers benefit from the "become a lich" 20th level class feature, in any case.





Logically though in the inverse, if a lich took the Exemplar prestige class, they'd eventually become an Outsider (Augmented Undead, Native)? It doesn't really make sense for them not to go that way, since they ascend to Outsider-hood as part of the class...



In Rules of the Game, it suggests that changes in type, for undead, apply to the subtype rather than the type itself.

A human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented humanoid)

A 20th level human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented outsider)

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a


Other Creature Types: Creatures with most other types are affected just as humanoids are when class features change their types. Undead creatures require some special handling. The transformation into an undead creature is profound -- so much so that the rules often don't bother with assigning the augmented subtype when creatures become undead (for example, the mummy and the ghoul). Transformation to undeath also is pretty much unalterable unless the creature returns to life (in which case it would regain its old creature type). To reflect the unique state of undeath, apply any class-induced change in type to the creature's original type, even if the creature has not received the augmented subtype for its original type. For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid). When the ghoul becomes a 20th-level monk, it becomes an undead (augmented outsider, native). The ghoul retains all its undead features and traits.

[ShurikVch]

But if, say, they became a lich (like through Dread Necromancer class progression)Dread Necromancer wouldn't do Lich out of Outsider, but Death Master (Dragon Compendium) would

are they now an Undead (Augmented Outsider, Earth, Extraplanar) or, following the Savage Species rule about top-tier Types staying as they are once you have them, do they remain an Outsider and just have some shenanigans with an Undead subtype?They are Undead now
Type pyramid isn't in use at least since the 3.5 transition (Shadow Wight in Manual of the Planes is Magical Beast, and neither Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/ManualPlanes_Errata02062006.zip), nor 3.5 update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Manual_of_the_Planes.zip) changed it)

From the Uncle Kitty's Guide to Template Based Shenanigans:
TEMPLATES FOR CONSTRUCTS (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12219.msg209760#msg209760)
TEMPLATES FOR OUTSIDERS (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12219.msg209769#msg209769)
TEMPLATES FOR UNDEAD (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12219.msg209771#msg209771)
TEMPLATES FOR "ANY" (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12219.msg209773#msg209773)



Closest I've found is the Entropic Reaper from Libris Mortis which is an undead from Limbo - Undead (Extraplanar, Chaotic). Likewise the example Necromental is an Undead (Augmented Elemental, Earth, Extraplanar).Also:
Nightshades (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm)
Devourer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm)
Bodak (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bodak.htm)
Atropal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal)
Abyssal Ghoul (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040119a)
Blood Fiend (Fiend Folio) - despite being called "Demon" is, actually, Undead
Necronaut (Monster Manual III)
Visage (Libris Mortis)
Vlaakith the Lich Queen (D&D Miniatures: Blood War set)


...Libris Mortis' entry for variant lichdom for evil Outsiders (the lichfiend pp157-158) doesn't really go into Type specifics. It says they keep their old traits and gain the typical traits of a lich plus some tweaks... but doesn't go into Types (so presumably Undead (Augmented Outsider, Evil)).Regardless of Libris Mortis, The Shackled City Adventure Path have its own separate variant of Lichfiend, which is definitely Undead (Dark Myrakul - cleric of Graz'zt - is Lichfiend)



In Rules of the Game, it suggests that changes in type, for undead, apply to the subtype rather than the type itself.

A human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented humanoid)

A 20th level human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented outsider)

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725aRules of the Game are, actually, in the very best case, variant rules (if not outright Skip Williams' House Rules)

Monk 20 is especially awkward example, since it doesn't really changes Type to Outsider, just "treated as an outsider ... for the purpose of spells and magical effects."

For example, Corrupted Flesh Golem (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a) is Aberration, and Thrall of Zuggtmoy (Dragon #337) at capstone becomes a Plant - even if started as Undead

[Blue Alu]

The Dread Necromancer class specifically states that only humanoid Dread Necromancers benefit from the "become a lich" 20th level class feature, in any case.Ah, I totally missed that last line. But like ShurikVch, there are ways to do it - whether through Death Master or Lichfiend.


In Rules of the Game, it suggests that changes in type, for undead, apply to the subtype rather than the type itself.

A human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented humanoid)

A 20th level human ghoul monk is an Undead (augmented outsider)

[link removed 'cause new account]I did come across that in my extended forum searching, but as ShurikVch says, the validity of that is fairly disputed. It's a bit like 3.5 not really using Savage Species because it was from the weird limbo period before 3.5 was solidly a thing, but there are still references to Savage Species in 3.5 books...


AtropalThat one's super weird because Libris Mortis has the Atropal Scion which is just an Undead, no subtypes.

Also where the heck does that statblock come from because it's not in the Epic Level Handbook 3.5 update? In fact, the 3.0 version of the Atropal from the ELH is listed as "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)" which is a super not-kosher Typing in 3.5.


Monk 20 is especially awkward example, since it doesn't really changes Type to Outsider, just "treated as an outsider ... for the purpose of spells and magical effects."Yeah that's why in my switch-to-Undead/switch-back-to-Outsider scenario, I suggested the Exemplar - Monk is ambiguous, Exemplar is very clear.

Like, I get that in certain sections 3.5 is basically just held together with butter, string and a fundamental misunderstanding of quantum physics' observer principle, but it seems like - when looking solely at 3.5 texts - it should be possible to transition back and forth between the two Types, rather than one trumping the other permanently.

And if that was not the actual intent of the writers... then... someone screwed up?

Which I mean, I guess goes without saying - the Extraplanar/Native subtypes kinda undermine the whole point of the Outsider Type in the first place...

[ShurikVch]

Also where the heck does that statblock come from because it's not in the Epic Level Handbook 3.5 update? In fact, the 3.0 version of the Atropal from the ELH is listed as "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)" which is a super not-kosher Typing in 3.5.From application of info from the 3.5 update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Epic_Handbook.zip) to statblock in Epic Level Handbook - "Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)"



Yeah that's why in my switch-to-Undead/switch-back-to-Outsider scenario, I suggested the Exemplar - Monk is ambiguous, Exemplar is very clear.Unfortunately, not so clear - it refers to the Monk's Perfect Self in the Player’s Handbook - which, as we just established, doesn't change the type...
Knight of the Sacred Seal (Tome of Magic) - which is just 5 levels long - suffering from the very same problem
So, if you want the Outsider capstone without tantalizing ambiguity, it looks like we should choose from:
Acolyte of the Skin (Complete Arcane) - 5/10 casting? Meh!
Alienist (Complete Arcane) - this PrC was murdered during the 3.5 transition :smallfrown:
Artist's Vengeance (Dragon #307) - 3/5 casting, but it's for a Bard...
Divine Agent (Manual of the Planes) - 5/10 casting?..
Follower of the Skyserpent (Dragon #307) - 2/5 casting? Really?
Initiate of Pistis Sophia (Book of Exalted Deeds) - you would need to be Exalted Good...
Scourge of Chaos (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised) - it's from a 3rd-party book, and required you to be Evil; otherwise - it's just 3 levels long :smallwink:
Shadowcrafter (Underdark) - 10/10 casting? Finally?! Jackpot? :smallamused:
Tiger Mask (Dragon #300) - 2/5 casting, required to be Evil, and work for Rakshasa; the only relative upside - after you get the Outsider capstone, you may betray your Rakshasa, which will cause loss of all class features - except for Outsider type and Arrow Attraction; then, you may just rebuilt all those 5 levels
Troubadour of Stars (Book of Exalted Deeds) - 5/10 casting, and you would need to be Exalted Good...



Which I mean, I guess goes without saying - the Extraplanar/Native subtypes kinda undermine the whole point of the Outsider Type in the first place...Yeah, when Outsider (Native) with Material Plane home plane meet Humanoid (Evil, Extraplanar) with Nine Hells of Baator as home plane, there is the question - why Outsider is "Outsider"... :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Yeah, when Outsider (Native) with Material Plane home plane meet Humanoid (Evil, Extraplanar) with Nine Hells of Baator as home plane, there is the question - why Outsider is "Outsider"... :smallconfused:

The first could be Rakshasas. The second could be Axiomatic Fiendish Humans (or regular Fiendish humans).

The former are fiends given special, "native to the Material plane" bodies, specially for operating there, but underneath it all, is the basic fiendish nature.

The latter are humans whose ancestors migrated to the Nine Hells long, long ago, and whose bodies have absorbed fiendish energy. But underneath it all, is the basic human nature.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType
Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

[Blue Jay]

You can always count on ShurikVch to provide a whole list of whatever you ask for. Do you have a whole bunch of custom spreadsheets or something?


Type pyramid isn't in use at least since the 3.5 transition

This. The type pyramid is probably a rule that you can just ignore, because it's not very intuitive and just adds a layer of unnecessary complexity, and most templates written after the fact don't seem to have taken it into account.

So, I agree with ShurikVch: don't use the type pyramid.

[hamishspence]

Monk 20 is especially awkward example, since it doesn't really changes Type to Outsider, just "treated as an outsider ... for the purpose of spells and magical effects."

The 3.0 version was unambiguous that Perfect Self meant the Monk is now an outsider. However, it didn't have the text about being raisable with Raise Dead.

I would guess that Skip treated the 3.5 version of Perfect Self as changing the type too - regarding it as a case of poor wording.

If I were errataing it, I'd have it rephrased as simply "Replace Humanoid type with Outsider type and Native subtype".

[magic9mushroom]

So, if you want the Outsider capstone without tantalizing ambiguity, it looks like we should choose from:
Acolyte of the Skin (Complete Arcane) - 5/10 casting? Meh!
Alienist (Complete Arcane) - this PrC was murdered during the 3.5 transition :smallfrown:
Artist's Vengeance (Dragon #307) - 3/5 casting, but it's for a Bard...
Divine Agent (Manual of the Planes) - 5/10 casting?..
Follower of the Skyserpent (Dragon #307) - 2/5 casting? Really?
Initiate of Pistis Sophia (Book of Exalted Deeds) - you would need to be Exalted Good...
Scourge of Chaos (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised) - it's from a 3rd-party book, and required you to be Evil; otherwise - it's just 3 levels long :smallwink:
Shadowcrafter (Underdark) - 10/10 casting? Finally?! Jackpot? :smallamused:
Tiger Mask (Dragon #300) - 2/5 casting, required to be Evil, and work for Rakshasa; the only relative upside - after you get the Outsider capstone, you may betray your Rakshasa, which will cause loss of all class features - except for Outsider type and Arrow Attraction; then, you may just rebuilt all those 5 levels
Troubadour of Stars (Book of Exalted Deeds) - 5/10 casting, and you would need to be Exalted Good...

Divine Disciple from Player's Guide to being overpowered Faerun.
Druid on steroids Planar Shepherd from Faiths of Eberron.
Divine Agent from Manual of the Planes updated in 3.5 update booklet (technically "treated as an outsider", but if you're treated as an outsider for all purposes you are functionally an outsider).
Incarnate, Magic of Incarnum.

Might be more.

[Blue Alu]

From application of info from the 3.5 update booklet to statblock in Epic Level Handbook - "Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)"Huh, I searched that through before posting, did not find that. Found it now.


Unfortunately, not so clear - it refers to the Monk's Perfect Self in the Player’s Handbook - which, as we just established, doesn't change the type...It does, but only immediately after outright stating "Her type changes to outsider (native)". So still pretty clear - and the monk thing isn't an unreasonable reference even if it's an incredibly poor choice of references, 'cause it still covers the general gist of what being Outsider (Native) would do.

...And if one were trying to get a RPG system to hold together using butter, string and bad quantum mechanics, this would be the "don't observe the Monk class, and there is no problem" part of the bad quantum mechanics. :smalltongue:


Yeah, when Outsider (Native) with Material Plane home plane meet Humanoid (Evil, Extraplanar) with Nine Hells of Baator as home plane, there is the question - why Outsider is "Outsider"... :smallconfused:Yeah... 3.5 (and derivatives 'cause PF has a similar issue at least in 1e - haven't checked 2e yet) has an overall issue with maybe... some Types should just be Subtypes? Then you wouldn't get Type change conflicts as often and maybe the Type/Subtype combos would make more sense.