Why not calling Aarindarius (Aa for short, henceforth) for help? (Or that sending...)

[Dr.Zero]

I've checked the thread about the major character etc. and indeed someone has already discussed the hypothesis (sadly, I thought to be the only one thinking of it), dismissing it, because the wrong number of strips Aa was in.

Anyway, why V shouldn't be sending to him to get some help?

We know:

1) V wasn't completely against asking to his master Aa help against the ABD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), indeed V initially was ok with it, if not for the fact that Qarr would have been killed on sight by Aa.
2) Roy isn't against asking for help, indeed he tried to ask the gods to send their clerics to help him, just they couldn't.
3) Aa must be epic or very very close, since V clearly thinks Aa could have defeated the ABD alone (and if the depiction of the battle in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html is close to what V thinks of Aa, Aa must be surely epic)
4) The elves are totally ok about stopping Xykon (see Elves entering Azure City). It is indeed already strange enough that a powerful magic caster as Aa appears to be wasn't sent there in the first place (counterpoint about Aa not being there: he is a bit of a douchebag, like V was, and is like "Don't harass me with your trivial problems, I must resolve arcane problems far beyond your puny imagination!").
5) Elan -and the group- seems to have moved over from the "it makes for a better story" phase.
6) Finally, V seems to have moved over from his pride, which could have indeed stopped him from asking his master for help.

So, any reason for not seeing such a powerful caster in the next book (aside the This is the OOTS' story, not the "Look how this powerful secondary character who is vaguely related to the OOTS turns out to be the hero of the OOTS' story")

My only IC counterpoints at the moment are:

a) Aa is a SUPER-ULTRA douchebag and replies along the line "Don't harass me with your sub boss monster, while I try to undercover the complex arcane secrets..." etc even when his pupil is asking for help to save the world.
b) Aa is SUPER-ULTRA genre savvy, as Julio, and fears to meet the usual end old mentors meet in this circumstances.
c) V has become SUPER-ULTRA genre savvy, and wants to keep his master safe (see point above), knowing that anyway they will be up to the task, because this is how stories work (a la Tarquin)

[hroþila]

V thought that Aarindarius could easily defeat the ABD, but that's not necessarily true. The Giant explained that, on top of being a visual joke and a callback to the panel where Aarindarius effortlessly zapped Qarr, that scene reflected V's subjective expectations, not objective reality, and those expectations were coloured by V's admiration towards their teacher, who kicked them out when V was much, much less powerful themself (kinda how we tend to remember things and places from our childhood as much bigger than they actually were).

[Fyraltari]

Aarindarius may be unreachable at the momement for whatever reason.

[factotum]

V thought that Aarindarius could easily defeat the ABD, but that's not necessarily true.

When V was Aarindarius' apprentice he was probably only 2nd or 3rd level at most, so even a 10th level master would have seemed super powerful to him at the time. As an adventurer, V will have levelled up much faster than Aarindarius could possibly do, so it's not likely that his master is much higher level now, whereas we know V is at minimum level 13 and probably higher.

[Schroeswald]

[snip]we know V is at minimum level 13 and probably higher.

We know V is level 16 based on how many spell slots and eighth level spells they’ve cast (specifically during last books climax IIRC).

[Dr.Zero]

V thought that Aarindarius could easily defeat the ABD, but that's not necessarily true. The Giant explained that, on top of being a visual joke and a callback to the panel where Aarindarius effortlessly zapped Qarr, that scene reflected V's subjective expectations, not objective reality, and those expectations were coloured by V's admiration towards their teacher, who kicked them out when V was much, much less powerful themself (kinda how we tend to remember things and places from our childhood as much bigger than they actually were).


When V was Aarindarius' apprentice he was probably only 2nd or 3rd level at most, so even a 10th level master would have seemed super powerful to him at the time. As an adventurer, V will have levelled up much faster than Aarindarius could possibly do, so it's not likely that his master is much higher level now, whereas we know V is at minimum level 13 and probably higher.

I see your points here, and, even if I can accept it, booking them under a "V is delusional" tag, which is totally possible, talking like this is common seems really inconsistent with what I know.

I mean, when I was a child, at the start my first grade teacher (who was even a very good and caring person, by the way) seemed surely like a person knowing a lot of thing.
But already as a child at some unknown point I was perfectly able to say that she appeared as much knowledgeable as any other teacher, and less of some other adults I could watch speaking about scientific stuff on tv.
And I won't ever think of her as a candidate for a Nobel Prize.

Who know, maybe I'm wrong and she was a genius, but it never happened to me to classify her as a genius because she could teach me basic arithmetic. Specially not if you ask me now, much later.

I can't see why someone who has mastered magic as much as V might think differently of some wizard who has never shown to him anything more strong than 7th level spells (just as an example)



Aarindarius may be unreachable at the momement for whatever reason.

He might even be dead, sure. Maybe kia during a mission against another epic enemy, which might justify why he has not taken part to the operation in Azure City.

In that case I'd expect a try by V to contact him, at least, though.

[factotum]

But already as a child at some unknown point I was perfectly able to say that she appeared as much knowledgeable as any other teacher, and less of some other adults I could watch speaking about scientific stuff on tv.


But that's because you had other teachers and people on TV to compare them to. How many other wizards has V even met, much less seen actually casting spells? (I don't think the ones in the Iron Wizard competition in OtOoPCs count, because V accidentally blew up the stadium before we could see much of what the others had done).

[Riftwolf]

4) The elves are totally ok about stopping Xykon (see Elves entering Azure City). It is indeed already strange enough that a powerful magic caster as Aa appears to be wasn't sent there in the first place (counterpoint about Aa not being there: he is a bit of a douchebag, like V was, and is like "Don't harass me with your trivial problems, I must resolve arcane problems far beyond your puny imagination!").

Team Peregrine were agents of the Elven government. Aarindarius appears to be a private citizen. He might not get involved in politics, not because he's a douchebag, but because its not his job. Also, stopping Xykon wasn't part of the Elven mandate; stopping goblins was. If Xykon left the city and Team Peregrine had still been alive, they would have stayed in Azure City to overthrow the goblin government and let Xykon go.

[Morquard]

My theory. Aarindarius is Inky's dad, and when V broke their heart, he vowed to burn V to a pile of ash if he ever sees them again.

[woweedd]

I assume AA is around Level 16, which would mean V, who has just now reached the point where they'd consider asking for help outside the situation of "Black dragon about to eat my family", has already equalled him, and will soon surpass their old master. And that's a guess based on how much power it would take to defeat the ABD: It's entirely possible he's only around 13th or 14th level, which would make him still very powerful by the standards of a world where Wizards rarely rise above 10th-level, but less powerful then his old student is now. EIther way, I HIGHLY doubt he's even Near-Epic: Epic level is a once (well, six times) in a generation occurance on OOTS Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if 16th-level V is currently the most powerful Wizard on the planet, in terms of level.

[DavidBV]

I assume AA is around Level 16, which would mean V, who has just now reached the point where they'd consider asking for help outside the situation of "Black dragon about to eat my family", has already equalled him, and will soon surpass their old master. And that's a guess based on how much power it would take to defeat the ABD: It's entirely possible he's only around 13th or 14th level, which would make him still very powerful by the standards of a world where Wizards rarely rise above 10th-level, but less powerful then his old student is now.

I disagree on this. When Vaarsuvius confronted the ABD he was level 13 or 14, and at that point he believed Aarindarius was vastly more powerful than he was. Not only that, but the Board of Directors themselves thought Aarindarius power was enough to defeat an ABD without even questioning the outcome; the art depicting him killing the dragon whithout even looking is, after all, part of the BoD narration. Certainly they could be lying, but would the lie have any credibility if Aarindarius was just slightly more powerful than V?

Let's also not forget in OoTS, characters and in particular order members are aware of the rules and in particular, levels. V would probably know what is the actual, exact level of Aarindarius.


EIther way, I HIGHLY doubt he's even Near-Epic: Epic level is a once (well, six times) in a generation occurance on OOTS Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if 16th-level V is currently the most powerful Wizard on the planet, in terms of level.

So if it happens once in a generation... there's zero epic elves in the OoTS world? moreso, there's zero elves over level 16? While possible, I find it unlikely. If I had to take a guess I'd likely place Aarindarius at level 18-21.

Responding to the original question in the thread: because elves have a tendency to just not care about what happens in the "outside world". Sure, Vaarsuvius could compel Aa in the Sending spell by mentioning the world is about to end and needs to be saved... but Aa probably wouldn't give it much credibility, considering that's what most high level adventurers do anyways. Now, mentioning an evil dragon murdering elves in the elven lands is a different matter, in that case his involvement was far more likely.

[Peelee]

Not only that, but the Board of Directors themselves thought Aarindarius power was enough to defeat an ABD without even questioning the outcome; the art depicting him killing the dragon whithout even looking is, after all, part of the BoD narration. Certainly they could be lying, but would the lie have any credibility if Aarindarius was just slightly more powerful than V?

They're definitely lying about the alternate plan in general; putting aside that Qarr would not, in fact, have to do things he knows would kill him, Durkon was not on the ship at the time, and raising V would take ten minutes, far longer than he could spare. Both of which V did not know.

That the plan was already in bad faith does not lend me towards believing that A. A. Ron Rin could have taken down the dragon that easily. All that mattered was that V believed their narrative, so V's perception of their teacher is what's at issue. Which, as others stated, need not be consistent with reality.

[RatElemental]

I disagree on this. When Vaarsuvius confronted the ABD he was level 13 or 14, and at that point he believed Aarindarius was vastly more powerful than he was. Not only that, but the Board of Directors themselves thought Aarindarius power was enough to defeat an ABD without even questioning the outcome; the art depicting him killing the dragon whithout even looking is, after all, part of the BoD narration. Certainly they could be lying, but would the lie have any credibility if Aarindarius was just slightly more powerful than V?


I'm pretty sure that the entire reason the IFCC pitched that plan was to capitalize on V's need to fix everything to further goad them into taking the deal, as well as to take away one excuse V might have when it comes time to be sorted into an afterlife. The plan probably wouldn't have even worked, it just had to seem reasonable enough to a sleep deprived half mad V.

The giant is even on record saying he has no clue if Aarindarius would actually have been any help at all, it only mattered that V who was definitely not at their most rational thought it was at least plausible he could.

[hroþila]

I'd say the art is not part of the IFCC's narration in any way. It's either what V is imagining, or entirely external and for our eyes only.

[Aidan]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that V may not know the exact level of his former master. We are not (to my knowledge) told the last time that they spoke, and V has been leveling up while adventuring far quicker than he was as A's apprentice.

My guess is, A is around 17th or 18th level, as well as much wiser with regards to the use of magic. Whether or not A actually could have beaten ABD is almost irrelevant, the real reason we are shown that is to establish how V is thinking in the moment of his ill-fated decision. The fiends don't need to know that A would succeed, just that V, who holds his master in high regard, would be unwilling to admit defeat.

As for why V doesn't send for A, I think that A may not have access to teleport, as (if we assume that V took after A in this regard) conjuration may be their barred school. We don't know how easy it would be for A to obtain a magical item for teleport, and V may believe that the battle will be over before they can get there.

[FujinAkari]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that V may not know the exact level of his former master. We are not (to my knowledge) told the last time that they spoke, and V has been leveling up while adventuring far quicker than he was as A's apprentice.

My guess is, A is around 17th or 18th level

I think you are severely overestimating the powerlevel of the world. Hilgya brought Durkon back with a Resurrection (Level 7) spell, which implies that she did not have access to True Resurrection which would have negated the (2) lost level(s).

Now, the fact that the Order allowed her to cast it - twice implies that there weren't any other priests around who had access to True Resurrection and, remember, the most powerful priests in the world are in the next room.

Maybe we want to say they didn't have it prepared, and that's possible, but for NONE of them to have it prepared, to me, says that the number of characters in the world with access to ninth level spells is staggeringly small, possibly as small as 2.

[factotum]

I think you are severely overestimating the powerlevel of the world. Hilgya brought Durkon back with a Resurrection (Level 7) spell, which implies that she did not have access to True Resurrection which would have negated the (2) lost level(s).

I'm pretty sure the Giant is on record as saying that True Resurrection simply doesn't exist in the Stickverse, because it's such a plot-breaking thing to have around.

[The Pilgrim]

I imagine the conversation as follows:

- Vaarsuvius: Greetings, Most Excelling and Honored Great Master Aarindarius. This is me, Vaarsuvius, your most humble apprentice. In my travels I have uncovered that the World is but a Gigantic Cosmic Prison for an Eldritch Horror of such power that even the Gods are powerless against it. The creature is about to break free, destroying the world and everything in the Material Plane, as it has done thousands of times before. Would you not join me and my rag-tag party of misfits in one last ditch hopeless attempt against the odds to stop Armaggedon from happening?
- Aarindarius: I am sorry, noble Vaarsuvius, my most beloved student, but I am currently on vacation at Arborea.
- Vaarsuvius: On Vacation? I do not happen to remember you having ever taken a recess away from the arcane matters, my Master. Since when have you adquired such an habit?
- Aarindarius: Since twelve seconds ago.

[RatElemental]

I'm pretty sure the Giant is on record as saying that True Resurrection simply doesn't exist in the Stickverse, because it's such a plot-breaking thing to have around.

Haley certainly seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) to think it exists, even if anyone capable of casting it might not.

[woweedd]

Haley certainly seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) to think it exists, even if anyone capable of casting it might not.
Well, as of recently, we know there is one (and, given the general power level of OOTS, i'm pretty sure JUST one) Cleric high-enough level to cast it...but he's no friend of The Order.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)

[Peelee]

remember, the most powerful priests in the world are in the next room.
I agree with your overall point, but I don't think a mountain way over yonder should be called "the next room."

Haley certainly seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) to think it exists, even if anyone capable of casting it might not.

Knowing of something and it existing in their world are not the same thing. Redcloak knew about psionics but took a long time trying to find out if they were even being used in Stickworld.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I imagine the conversation as follows:

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Regardless of whether Aarindarius can help, he may not actually want to. Agreeing to fight a single dragon (which, at least in the imagined scenario, was effortless) as a personal favor to V is far from agreeing to take on an epic lich who's beaten multiple epic opponents.

And after all, as the saying goes: all that's required for evil to triumph... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html)

[woweedd]

I agree with your overall point, but I don't think a mountain way over yonder should be called "the next room."


Knowing of something and it existing in their world are not the same thing. Redcloak knew about psionics but took a long time trying to find out if they were even being used in Stickworld.
In fairness, Haley said "We need to find a Cleric who can cast True Resurrection", not "we need to find out if True Resurrection exists in this setting".

[Peelee]

In fairness, Haley said "We need to find a Cleric who can cast True Resurrection", not "we need to find out if True Resurrection exists in this setting".

Which says that she believes it exists, but she is not an authority on it; she could simply be wrong.

[woweedd]

Which says that she believes it exists, but she is not an authority on it; she could simply be wrong.

True, but I tend to assume anything in the core books is true in OOTS until proven otherwise, including the existence or lack thereof of certain spells: core book stuff gets a true until proven false, while non-core material, like psionics, gets the opposite.

[Peelee]

True, but I tend to assume anything in the core books is true in OOTS until proven otherwise, including the existence or lack thereof of certain spells: core book stuff gets a true until proven false, while non-core material, like psionics, gets the opposite.

I will too, for the most part. But when the author personally rants about a certain spell, explicitly calls it "narrative-breaking," and says it has no use... I'm going to make an exception and assume it's not going to be part of his narrative.:smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

I will too, for the most part. But when the author personally rants about a certain spell, explicitly calls it "narrative-breaking," and says it has no use... I'm going to make an exception and assume it's not going to be part of his narrative.:smallwink:

It will not be part of the narrative, but as far as I know, the Giant has never said or implied that it doesn't exist in the world, simply that it won't be cast in this story. I think you are adding the doesn't exist where it isn't necessary. There is no sign of any level 17 clerics other than Redcloak, and he's not casting it.

[Peelee]

It will not be part of the narrative, but as far as I know, the Giant has never said or implied that it doesn't exist in the world, simply that it won't be cast in this story.

Given the functional difference and the author's personal feelings towards the spell, then, I see no reason to stop headcanoning "they don't actually get that spell in this world." :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

My theory. Aarindarius is Inky's dad, and when V broke their heart, he vowed to burn V to a pile of ash if he ever sees them again. This is my new headcannon. :smallcool:

[Jasdoif]

He might even be dead, sure. Maybe kia during a mission against another epic enemy, which might justify why he has not taken part to the operation in Azure City.

In that case I'd expect a try by V to contact him, at least, though.Hmm. Have we seen Aarindarius post-Familicide?

[Peelee]

Hmm. Have we seen Aarindarius post-Familicide?

Are you suggesting a possible fondness for scales?:smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

Are you suggesting a possible fondness for scales?:smallwink:I was thinking more like the existence of half-elves, the long lives of elves, and the "preferred propagation pattern" of the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) could result in elves being related by blood to observed human members of the Draketooths (Draketeeth?).

I suppose that doesn't impact the possibility of fondness for scales, though; Girard's grandparents represent the first time a human mated with a black dragon, but we're talking about elves.

[Dr.Zero]

They're definitely lying about the alternate plan in general; putting aside that Qarr would not, in fact, have to do things he knows would kill him, Durkon was not on the ship at the time, and raising V would take ten minutes, far longer than he could spare. Both of which V did not know.


That the IFCC members were lying is totally possible, nonetheless V thought to ask his master for help even before their appearance.




The giant is even on record saying he has no clue if Aarindarius would actually have been any help at all, it only mattered that V who was definitely not at their most rational thought it was at least plausible he could.

Sorry, who is the "he" in the "he has no clue"?



I imagine the conversation as follows:

- Vaarsuvius: Greetings, Most Excelling and Honored Great Master Aarindarius. This is me, Vaarsuvius, your most humble apprentice. In my travels I have uncovered that the World is but a Gigantic Cosmic Prison for an Eldritch Horror of such power that even the Gods are powerless against it. The creature is about to break free, destroying the world and everything in the Material Plane, as it has done thousands of times before. Would you not join me and my rag-tag party of misfits in one last ditch hopeless attempt against the odds to stop Armaggedon from happening?
- Aarindarius: I am sorry, noble Vaarsuvius, my most beloved student, but I am currently on vacation at Arborea.
- Vaarsuvius: On Vacation? I do not happen to remember you having ever taken a recess away from the arcane matters, my Master. Since when have you adquired such an habit?
- Aarindarius: Since twelve seconds ago.

Ah! Grammar aside, I could have written something like that.
But that sounds more like Julio, if you ask me.

Personally I find the argument "maybe V was wrong about Aa's power" kinda lacking for two reasons 1) I've explained already as, specially as adults, we perceive way better the limits of our previous teachers, in the case of V that should be even more clear, since he knows the spells he has seen casted by Aa, and knows the spells he can cast now; 2) point 1 notwithstanding, even if V was blatantly wrong about Aa's power, I see no explanation for him to be able to make a more correct guess now.

Said that, some explanations ring as quite plausible with me, starting with "he is unavailable, momentarily or definitely (dead)", anyway I'd like to see the point addressed in the comic, sooner or later.

[Jasdoif]

Sorry, who is the "he" in the "he has no clue"?Probably referencing the latter of these posts.




Is Aarindarius indeed an epic-level wizard who could kill an ancient black dragon without bothering to look at her, or was that the fiends deceiving Vaarsuvius?Hyperbole on the part of the illustration; it's a callback joke to the panel in #630 where he kills Qarr without looking. The fiends never actually made any claims other than that he could "intercede."



Could he actually have interceded in any meaningful way, or was that just something the fiends counted on Vaarsuvius not questioning, like Durkon being at the fleet and having a scroll of Sending?I have no idea. Clearly, V thought it was at least plausible. That's all that really matters.

[woweedd]

I will too, for the most part. But when the author personally rants about a certain spell, explicitly calls it "narrative-breaking," and says it has no use... I'm going to make an exception and assume it's not going to be part of his narrative.:smallwink:
I mean, that same post called out Teleport as a plot-breaker, but that spell definitely exists in OOTS.

[CriticalFailure]

It seems more like narrative breaking spells are written around. The lack of castings of true res is easily explained by the fact that there is one cleric confirmed to be able to cast it, and his boss is not likely to spring for the components.

[Peelee]

I mean, that same post called out Teleport as a plot-breaker, but that spell definitely exists in OOTS.

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

[woweedd]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.
Or, as he has done, you could "control access" to True Res in the sense of "literally one person in the entire world can cast it, and he's not on speaking terms with our heroes".

[Peelee]

Or, as he has done, you could "control access" to True Res in the sense of "literally one person in the entire world can cast it, and he's not on speaking terms with our heroes".

Which loops us back around to:
Given the functional difference and the author's personal feelings towards the spell, then, I see no reason to stop headcanoning "they don't actually get that spell in this world." :smalltongue:

[RatElemental]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

Not entirely true. True res can't bring back someone who has died of old age (and there are ways to magically age people), nor someone whose soul can't return for some reason (such as Lirian and Dorukan). You can also take someone out without killing them, such as with imprison, binding, trap the soul, flesh to stone, or just good old fashioned ability damage.

Side note, but Wish can recreate the corpse of someone who didn't leave one as one of its explicitly defined 'safe' options.

[Peelee]

Not entirely true. True res can't bring back someone who has died of old age (and there are ways to magically age people), nor someone whose soul can't return for some reason (such as Lirian and Dorukan).

Indeed, which I wrote as "virtually no restriction."

[CriticalFailure]

I just don’t understand why people would assume that when characters have discussed the spell.

[Peelee]

I just don’t understand why people would assume that when characters have discussed the spell.

Characters have discussed Japan, which doesn't exist for them. Characters discussing a thing doesn't mean it necessarily exists, and a Rogue and Ranger are not really authorities on Cleric spells.

[Forum Explorer]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

I don't see how True Res is worse than Teleportation. So long as the party doesn't have easy access to it, it's basically the same as teleportation. For that matter, it's often just a slightly better Resurrection. Like if they have a battle against, I don't know, a chlorine elemental or something, and Elan dies in the fight, but they can bring him back with Resurrection just fine. If they had access to True Resurrection, nothing would change plot wise.

[RatElemental]

Characters have discussed Japan, which doesn't exist for them. Characters discussing a thing doesn't mean it necessarily exists, and a Rogue and Ranger are not really authorities on Cleric spells.

It has all the same restrictions as resurrection except for the part about needing a part of the corpse.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah but generally when characters refer to mechanics they do do with the understanding that d&d3.5 mechanics usually apply.

[Dr.Zero]

Probably referencing the latter of these posts.






Oh, I see, thanks.

Well, that the author has no idea about his own (very minor) character seems a bit strange. He could have replied just "yes" or "no, but it isn't important because... [same stuff he said]".
The fact that he didn't want to actually reply to the question, makes me wonder even more if the author really had already something planned for Aa.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Zero]

I don't see how True Res is worse than Teleportation. So long as the party doesn't have easy access to it, it's basically the same as teleportation. For that matter, it's often just a slightly better Resurrection. Like if they have a battle against, I don't know, a chlorine elemental or something, and Elan dies in the fight, but they can bring him back with Resurrection just fine. If they had access to True Resurrection, nothing would change plot wise.

True Res is slightly different because, aside the old age and a greater bunch of diamonds, the death is always reversible and has no consequences (loss of the aforementioned greater bunch of diamonds aside).

I never GMed a campaign with high end level characters, but I can see the problem in lack of drama if I did:

"Your beloved wife has just been disintegrated by the evil guy!"
"Nooo!... Oh, wait, I can resurrect her!"
"And... uhm... her remains have been dispersed! No body to use!"
"NOOOO!... Oh, wait, I cast true resurrection then!"
"..."


Honestly I see less the problem in a webcomic, because the characters are going to be exactly the level the author wants, and, as you pointed out, the author could limit the access to the spell in other ways. But I suppose the simple fact that the reader knows that the dragon balls true resurrection spell can be used might reduce the suspense for the reader. And force the author to find lame excuses for not using it (cfr Terkla)[1].

[1]
"Save me with your neutralize poison!"
"I can't!"
a couple of panels later
"I will bring you back!"
"No, don't mind. If... uh... you can't love me, I prefer death."
"But just a moment ago you wanted to be saved by my neutralize poison."
"Yeah, that was to push some character growth into you. Geez, just roll with it!"

[Jannoire]

[1]
"Save me with your neutralize poison!"
"I can't!"
a couple of panels later
"I will bring you back!"
"No, don't mind. If... uh... you can't love me, I prefer death."
"But just a moment ago you wanted to be saved by my neutralize poison."
"Yeah, that was to push some character growth into you. Geez, just roll with it!"


After reading the strip... She didn't really wanted to be saved in the first place.
She was just surprised that Elan needed to 'find a way' to save her when Neutralize Poison is a bard spell. She never said anything about that spell being cast on her

[Aidan]

Oh, I see, thanks.

Well, that the author has no idea about his own (very minor) character seems a bit strange. He could have replied just "yes" or "no, but it isn't important because... [same stuff he said]".
The fact that he didn't want to actually reply to the question, makes me wonder even more if the author really had already something planned for Aa.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this. :smallbiggrin:

I think it's more of an unwillingness to potentially tie his own hands later on. Let's say that he intends to address why V hasn't contacted A yet, well that would be a good opportunity to establish clearly just how powerful A is. Just like how the Giant has said that he doesn't have the characters stats really written down, mostly to avoid tying his hands with that. My guess is that currently A could be anywhere from let's say level 12 to level 20, but we wont know which until A is seen in comic.

It's kind of like Schrodingers cat expect the Giant is Schrodinger and we replace the cat with an Elven wizard.

[Dr.Zero]

After reading the strip... She didn't really wanted to be saved in the first place.
She was just surprised that Elan needed to 'find a way' to save her when Neutralize Poison is a bard spell. She never said anything about that spell being cast on her

Yes, I remember.

As counter argument I can say that she neither did spit out the potion of heroism (which, increasing her saves, might actually have saved her, theoretically at least) nor stopped Daigo from going to search for antitoxins and other potions.

[woweedd]

Yes, I remember.

As counter argument I can say that she neither did spit out the potion of heroism (which, increasing her saves, might actually have saved her, theoretically at least) nor stopped Daigo from going to search for antitoxins and other potions.
To be fair, she hadn't yet confirmed that Elan genuinely would not, and would NEVER date her.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, she hadn't yet confirmed that Elan genuinely would not, and would NEVER date her.

Also you can choose to fail a save on purpose.

[brian 333]

There is a good reason to not call for outside assisstance, be it from Aarindarius or anyone else: panic reaction.

Suppose Aa decides to do a Hilgya instead of help. Next, the elf queen, (or whomever,) finds out and wants to go, along with her courtiers. Then everyone on the fringes of court want to go too, and suddenly every wizard and cleric capable of Plane Shift is being mobbed. People will kill to survive, or out of anger for being denied.

And once it begins it will spread over the Western Continent and across the sea. The OotS might succeed in fixing the rifts only to find their world torn by war and fratricide.

Best thing is to keep the whole issue on the down-low.

[Dr.Zero]

Also you can choose to fail a save on purpose.

This is an interesting point, because I'd be ok to make a character fail a dex save on purpose (since it usually means "avoid to jump aside") and a will save on purpose (which usually means "ignore your gut instinct" or "relax yourself and let the charm work"), but a fort save?
"You tell to your T cells to shut up and let the virus do its work"? Not going to happen at my table. (Aside, maybe, if dude has some really great control over his body, like autohypnosis and similar skills)

I'm going to check what is it for RAW, though (yeah, in years that I've played the game, I've never checked this).

Edit: ok, after a quick research, it seems that the answer is basically unknown, since apparently nowhere is explicitly said that you can generally fail your st, but when you can it is specified by the harmless tag or in the spell description. Everything else I read in this couple of minutes is on the line "I'd allow" "I wouldn't".
Couple of interned threads for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514698-Choosing-to-fail-saving-throws
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/3v271u/can_you_voluntarily_fail_a_save_so_if_you_have_a/

[Fyraltari]

There is a good reason to not call for outside assisstance, be it from Aarindarius or anyone else: panic reaction.

Suppose Aa decides to do a Hilgya instead of help. Next, the elf queen, (or whomever,) finds out and wants to go, along with her courtiers. Then everyone on the fringes of court want to go too, and suddenly every wizard and cleric capable of Plane Shift is being mobbed. People will kill to survive, or out of anger for being denied.

And once it begins it will spread over the Western Continent and across the sea. The OotS might succeed in fixing the rifts only to find their world torn by war and fratricide.

Best thing is to keep the whole issue on the down-low.
Actually people tend not to panic in the face of not-imminent clear danger and just assume that somebody else will fix it. See fourth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

[RatElemental]

Edit: ok, after a quick research, it seems that the answer is basically unknown, since apparently nowhere is explicitly said that you can generally fail your st, but when you can it is specified by the harmless tag or in the spell description. Everything else I read in this couple of minutes is on the line "I'd allow" "I wouldn't".
Couple of interned threads for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514698-Choosing-to-fail-saving-throws
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/3v271u/can_you_voluntarily_fail_a_save_so_if_you_have_a/

Both of those threads are for 5e. 3.5 RAW explicitly allows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426681-Unconscious-Willing-Choosing-to-fail-a-save-rules-and-opinions) you to do so. Note the second quote that doesn't specify 'spell' and just says you can voluntarily forego a saving throw and accept the consequences.

[Dr.Zero]

Both of those threads are for 5e. 3.5 RAW explicitly allows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426681-Unconscious-Willing-Choosing-to-fail-a-save-rules-and-opinions) you to do so. Note the second quote that doesn't specify 'spell' and just says you can voluntarily forego a saving throw and accept the consequences.

Ah, ok then.
I still think it doesn't make sense for fort saves, but RAW is RAW (and here is even RAI), so she could decide to fail it.