Tips for a "Monkslayer" Build?

[Destro2119]

So I find myself in need of a statted NPC who shall be the scourge of monks anywhere. When I say "monkslayer" I don't just mean "level 20 anything else lol." I mean I need a character build whose sole purpose is to eradicate monks, to utterly humiliate them at anything they could possibly try to do. Also, it has to be in the level range of 10-11, and the edition is 3.5.

PS: If you can give me a 5e build as well, all the better. Just help me kill monks.

[GrayDeath]

Use a Wizard or Cleric, make the Monk immobile via direct magic or summons, then kill him directly with magic or with summons.


I man honestly, "optimize to kill a weak class is not really....hard. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Wizard with an octopus familiar, Polymorph, and Heroics. Defeat monks by grappling them.

[Destro2119]

Can anybody give a statted-out build please?

[AvatarVecna]

What level is this monkslayer supposed to be, and is the goal "easily murders monks" or is "humiliation" sufficient?

[Destro2119]

10-11 as stated in original post, and easily kills monks is preferred, though go for humiliation if former is too easy

[Heavenblade]

Ill post a build later, but here are some of the major points I was thinking about

1. Someone who reduces their wisdom because it is an essential ability for them
2. Someone who could outmatch monks in close combat, maybe even unarmed, but rely on dirty tricks instead of on intensive training and concentration
3. Someone who is chaotic and uses chaos, because that'll just piss them off fluff wise (that a guy who is everything they oppose is better than them)



Is that what you were looking for?

[AvatarVecna]

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Half-Orc

Stats pre-race: 16/14/14/12/12/10
Stats post-race: 34/12/20/6/12/6

Fighter 6/Hulking Hurler 3

Feats:
HD 1: Natural Heavyweight
Fighter 1: Point-Blank Shot
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (big thrown rock)
HD 3: Improved Initiative
Fighter 4: Power Attack
HD 6: Precise Shot
Fighter 6: Far Shot
HD 9: Improved Toughness

Items:
Belt of the Wide Earth
Gauntlets Of Ogre Power +2
a nice boulder

Init +5, 9d10+45 HP, and a 9800 lb boulder at +22 to-hit, 52d6+12 damage (avg 194), and a 30 ft range increment. Fort +11 to prevent stunning.

This guy has no real technique or tricks, he just chucks a 5 ton rock at anybody who gets close, and they get pasted.

[Lord Of Forks]

Enemies that can fly and have ranged attacks are the bane of all non casters. Casters are normally fairly good, but monks have evasion and high saves, so I'll just focus on a ranged attacker.

I'll be starting off with the base of a pixie, DR10/Cold iron, Greater invisibility, and if needed, SR 15.
Those stats combined with a Pixie's 60 foot fly speed, (Good) makes it effectively impossible for any martial class to handle, and still quite annoying for casters to deal with.

A pixie starts with an LA of 4, so that gives us about 6 class levels to play around with. The main idea of this build is to just overwhelm the monk with arrows every round, preventing him from catching all of them, and beating his high AC by relying on nat 20's, as well as the Pixie's high dexterity (A +8).

Assuming starting stats for the pixie's dex are 14-16, the racial bonus is bringing us up to a 22-24.
So a +6 or +7 Dex mod.

For the class levels I would recomend fighter, for the high BAB, and for the extra feats, giving us a total of 7 at Class level 6, ECL 10.

Point Blank Shot, as a prerequisite, but also as a small boost to damage.
Rapid Shot, as a prerequisite.
Many Shot, as a prerequisite.
Improved Rapid Shot, removes the -2 from rapid shot attacks.
Three other feats of your choosing.

For extra effect make the bow a wounding bow (+2 enchantment) for 1 con damage per arrow hit, with no save.

[tstewt1921]

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Half-Orc

Stats pre-race: 16/14/14/12/12/10
Stats post-race: 34/12/20/6/12/6

Fighter 6/Hulking Hurler 3

Feats:
HD 1: Natural Heavyweight
Fighter 1: Point-Blank Shot
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (big thrown rock)
HD 3: Improved Initiative
Fighter 4: Power Attack
HD 6: Precise Shot
Fighter 6: Far Shot
HD 9: Improved Toughness

Items:
Belt of the Wide Earth
Gauntlets Of Ogre Power +2
a nice boulder

Init +5, 9d10+45 HP, and a 9800 lb boulder at +22 to-hit, 52d6+12 damage (avg 194), and a 30 ft range increment. Fort +11 to prevent stunning.

This guy has no real technique or tricks, he just chucks a 5 ton rock at anybody who gets close, and they get pasted.

Use this guy....this guys is good lol

[Buufreak]

Have you tried a bucket of water? That usually stops monks cold.


Can anybody give a statted-out build please?

NYPA, my dude.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about psychic warrior 10 with Tashalatora?

It'd be pretty humiliating for someone to say, "You spent your entire career focusing on being a monk. I got everything important from that for a feat, and I got full manifesting, too."

Even worse, buy a monk's belt and a fanged ring, instead of Tashalatora. "I have two cheap magic items that give me practically your whole class."

[Maat Mons]

Being incorporeal would mostly mean they can't hit you. Ki Strike only lets their fists count as magic for purposes of overcoming DR, not for purposes of having a chance to strike incorporeal foes. If they have a necklace or amulet that actually makes their fists +1, you can just Dispel it.

But I suppose there are still Zen Archer Monks with Serenwood bows. Using flight or incorporeality to defeat other Monks would just make those guys feel smug.



Hmm, if defeat a Monk using an effect that allows a save, he'll just conclude that save-targeting effects are powerful, and he was therefore right to pick a class with all-good saves. If you defeat a Monk using an effect that requires an attack roll, he'll just conclude that AC-targeting effects are powerful, and he was therefore right to pick a class with high touch AC.



Come to think of it, if you use a Freedom of Movement effect to screw over a grapple-based Monk, he'll probably decide that the fact that you needed to prepare a special defense against grappling just proves how powerful grappling is. Yes losing in a "humiliating" way only serves to show that you're strong, if you engage in enough rationalization.

Actually, if this NPC bases his whole build around defeating Monks, it would just "prove" that Monks are so powerful that only highly-specialized builds have any chance of defeating them.



I kind of like the Tasheletora idea. But I'm a little worried that the defeated Monk will say "You see, even these supposedly 'almighty' casters, for all their talk of superiority, know that they can only defeat Monks by effectively becoming Monks! It's a pity he wasted so much time studying magic. If he's this strong after just dabbling in martial arts, imagine how strong he'd be if he'd devoted himself to it fully!"

[Mike Miller]

... "level 20 anything else lol."

You completed your own request in the same paragraph. Seriously, monks are weak. You can fluff any character as a monk slayer. There are specific mage slayer classes out there, because mages are dangerous. There is a reason there is no PrC devoted to killing monks.

Any full caster 10-11, as you proposed that level, would suffice. Just pick spells that stop movement, decrease stats, save-or-die, even massive damage. They aren't exactly high HP foes.

If you don't want a full caster, other martials humiliate monks in melee too. Any full BAB with high AC will be too much for the monk.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I kind of like the Tasheletora idea. But I'm a little worried that the defeated Monk will say "You see, even these supposedly 'almighty' casters, for all their talk of superiority, know that they can only defeat Monks by effectively becoming Monks! It's a pity he wasted so much time studying magic. If he's this strong after just dabbling in martial arts, imagine how strong he'd be if he'd devoted himself to it fully!""That'd be like 'upgrading' from being perfectly healthy to having brain damage and no arms."

[Maat Mons]

"Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

[lord_khaine]

This has the feel of a utter jerk move.
Of the kind that screams bad gm. Its certainly one where i think the motivation behind could likely use a little scrutiny.
Im also honestly disapointed at how many people respond without thinking.
If the request had been "i want to humiliate one of my players" would your answer have been the same?

[Calthropstu]

If this were PF, it'd be pretty tough. The options monks have in PF are pretty good, especially being able to turn into sand, gaining incorporeal and beating things to death with touch attacks.
3.5? Yeah, lvl 20 of anything else. But humiliate them? Uber charger. 1 shot them before they even get to act. For a build, look up any uber charger build and replace the weapon with fist. Pimpslap them for nonlethal. Lvl 20 monk, pinacle of monkdom can easily be pimpslapped to unconsciousness in 1 shot by a lvl 10 uber charger.

[Hellpyre]

Why not update a 2nd edition Magic Golem? Explicitly being immune to non-mundane weapons and attacks means a high-level monk loses the ability to harm it directly.

[RaiKirah]

Level 1 Sparrow Hengeyokai Warlock with Surrogate Spellcasting and Eldritch Spear. Plink them with 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage from 250' away each round until they're dead.

[AvatarVecna]

Level 1 Sparrow Hengeyokai Warlock with Surrogate Spellcasting and Eldritch Spear. Plink them with 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage from 250' away each round until they're dead.

Commoner 1. Drown the monk (and everyone else, I guess) in chickens. :smalltongue:

[MultitudeMan]

"Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

May I please add this quote to my sig as well? I'm honestly not stalking you, but you do have a way with words.

[Maat Mons]

Sure. Must have 10 characters.

[Heavenblade]

This has the feel of a utter jerk move.
Of the kind that screams bad gm. Its certainly one where i think the motivation behind could likely use a little scrutiny.
Im also honestly disapointed at how many people respond without thinking.
If the request had been "i want to humiliate one of my players" would your answer have been the same?



That is actually a really valid point...I just assumed he is making a villian that is a "monk anathema" of some sort, the antithesis to everything monks are and/or a vile reflection of their ideals and abilities.

[lord_khaine]

That is actually a really valid point...I just assumed he is making a villian that is a "monk anathema" of some sort, the antithesis to everything monks are and/or a vile reflection of their ideals and abilities.

Then you dont make a npc whose purpose is "to utterly humiliate them at anything they could possibly try to do"?
If you just want a monk antithesis you ask for something opposed to the ideals of monks. Instead of something aimed at a mechanical level.

[Heavenblade]

Yeah yeah I get that

My planned build isn't something to oblitirate the monk, rather something that can counter some of its ability (area attacj yhat cannot be evaded, UAS that don't deal physical damage, ability to pierce throigh ethearlness and general theme of "tear this dude's mind apart cuz thats his greatest weapon)


But like I said, you are right NM


OP, if you could clarify the reason you want the build it could be great, thanks!

[Mellforce]

I like the Uber slapper idea.
Lion Barbarian/ fighter / frenzied berserker unarmed

[Quertus]

Being incorporeal would mostly mean they can't hit you. Ki Strike only lets their fists count as magic for purposes of overcoming DR, not for purposes of having a chance to strike incorporeal foes. If they have a necklace or amulet that actually makes their fists +1, you can just Dispel it.

But I suppose there are still Zen Archer Monks with Serenwood bows. Using flight or incorporeality to defeat other Monks would just make those guys feel smug.

But how about Flight and Invisibility? Could a Zen Archer handle that? Speaking of,


Enemies that can fly and have ranged attacks are the bane of all non casters. Casters are normally fairly good, but monks have evasion and high saves, so I'll just focus on a ranged attacker.

I'll be starting off with the base of a pixie, DR10/Cold iron, Greater invisibility, and if needed, SR 15.
Those stats combined with a Pixie's 60 foot fly speed, (Good) makes it effectively impossible for any martial class to handle, and still quite annoying for casters to deal with.

A pixie starts with an LA of 4, so that gives us about 6 class levels to play around with. The main idea of this build is to just overwhelm the monk with arrows every round, preventing him from catching all of them, and beating his high AC by relying on nat 20's, as well as the Pixie's high dexterity (A +8).

Assuming starting stats for the pixie's dex are 14-16, the racial bonus is bringing us up to a 22-24.
So a +6 or +7 Dex mod.

For the class levels I would recomend fighter, for the high BAB, and for the extra feats, giving us a total of 7 at Class level 6, ECL 10.

Point Blank Shot, as a prerequisite, but also as a small boost to damage.
Rapid Shot, as a prerequisite.
Many Shot, as a prerequisite.
Improved Rapid Shot, removes the -2 from rapid shot attacks.
Three other feats of your choosing.

For extra effect make the bow a wounding bow (+2 enchantment) for 1 con damage per arrow hit, with no save.

Get Perfect maneuverability, and take a 5' step in a random direction after each full attack. On the off chance you encounter a Zen Archer Monk, they still need to target your square, which should give them a 1-in-26 chance of success.

Also, you're almost certainly going to need infinite ammo if your plan is to spam arrows until the Monk falls.


This has the feel of a utter jerk move.
Of the kind that screams bad gm. Its certainly one where i think the motivation behind could likely use a little scrutiny.
Im also honestly disapointed at how many people respond without thinking.
If the request had been "i want to humiliate one of my players" would your answer have been the same?


That is actually a really valid point...I just assumed he is making a villian that is a "monk anathema" of some sort, the antithesis to everything monks are and/or a vile reflection of their ideals and abilities.


Then you dont make a npc whose purpose is "to utterly humiliate them at anything they could possibly try to do"?
If you just want a monk antithesis you ask for something opposed to the ideals of monks. Instead of something aimed at a mechanical level.

Never get into an optimization war with your players, because they cannot win. I think that, if there's a PC Monk at the table…

… actually, I'm not sure. I mean, how many times have I heard Playgrounders advocate intentionally sending fire-immune enemies against a PC Pyromancer, or otherwise suggesting to intentionally create encounters explicitly to **** over a PC build?

And this is just one single antagonist, not a suggestion to do this repeatedly, let alone every encounter. So this seems tame compared to Playground-accepted / Playground-advocated practices.

If this is an optimization war against a player, then IMO this is better than most **** GMs, who would just go for fiat / monster wins or some such.

Lastly, I'm a fan of humiliating lessons in elf games. Numerous times, when a new player didn't grok the importance of "balance to the table", I would switch PCs, and bring someone who obviates the need for the entire party (especially their character), then, at the end of the session, explicitly ask them if they'd care to tone it back to the level of the rest of the party. Done right, this technique works wonders, IME.

And, even if humiliating the player is what the GM is after, by virtue of coming here asking for a build, the GM has already humiliated themselves, saying that their player is clearly better at optimization than they are, if they cannot see any way to beat a Monk. :smallamused: And still does not preclude the possibility that the PC still wins by using something TO, like Flurry of Festering Anger or something.

So, under what circumstances is this really a problem - and, in particular, a worse one than Playground standard procedure creates by advocating sending encounters where players stop being able to play the game?

[Unavenger]

Literally anything that flies and can attack from a halfway-decent range.

Alternatively, insult to injury, play the dancing knight build: Take EWP spiked chain, evasive reflexes, hold the line, aberration blood, inhuman reach. Enjoy your 15 feet of inclusive reach, and the 5 foot step you can take instead of any attack of opportunity you're entitled to, the extra AoO before the monk's charge attack (you better believe you can make a 5 foot step instead of that), and the fact that the area around you is all considered difficult terrain and will stop the monk dead if they try to charge through it.

[MultitudeMan]

Alternatively, insult to injury, play the dancing knight build: Take EWP spiked chain, evasive reflexes, hold the line, aberration blood, inhuman reach. Enjoy your 15 feet of inclusive reach, and the 5 foot step you can take instead of any attack of opportunity you're entitled to, the extra AoO before the monk's charge attack (you better believe you can make a 5 foot step instead of that), and the fact that the area around you is all considered difficult terrain and will stop the monk dead if they try to charge through it.

This looks quite effective, but it may not be the perfect combo, if used round after round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

[MeeposFire]

I really do not like the sound of some here that seem to enjoy embarrassing somebody on a class choice. That is something I really do not miss when I am elsewhere.

As for this concept I rather like the idea of having a warrior type because that is a classic match up fist versus weapons.

Something like a lockdown build gives a puzzle to beat. Show off that the monks normal tactics are a bad idea (all of them will provoke attacks of opportunity more than likely) but then somehow allow the monk to get away and then allow the monk the chance to come up with alternative strategies.

A lockdown build is essentially someone who picks up all the feats and abilities that allow a character to provoke attacks of opportunity when your enemy does virtually anything. For instance you pick up thicket of blades from ToB so you can provoke AoO even when an enemy tumbles. If you dig deep enough you can find feats or abilities that allow you to get those extra attacks for almost anything an enemy does within your melee range.

Essentially it will make him too hard to beat in melee for the monk so the monk will need to come up with a different plan to win which can be fun.

[Unavenger]

This looks quite effective, but it may not be the perfect combo, if used round after round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Dancing Knight doesn't need to move straight backwards.

[Fizban]

Before you can build a monkslayer, you have to define "monk." Just like everything else. Particularly in how much of the build is actually the monk or "monk" character, and how much is perfect gear optimization. Note how many the suggestions in this thread are literally the same things people suggest in a monk building thread.

When I read "utterly humiliate them at anything they could possibly try to do" it inspires less of an aggressive counter and more one-upsmanhip. Because what sticks out to me about the monk are a few particular fundamental problems (which are addressed in my minimalist fix). So what is a monk supposed to do? Be hard to hit, move fast, and punch things. And it turns out, if you're better at those things than a monk without taking the class, you'll be good at killing them while also humiliating them at what they're supposed to do.

The first is easy, because the fundamental problem of monk AC is that any armored character wins. The second is harder, because monks eventually get higher speed bonuses than you can get anywhere else and armor slows you down- but at 10th level it's only 30', which is easily matched, and you can deal with the armor penalty various ways. Punching things is generally considered the least important, but because Tome of Battle maneuvers don't care what weapon or even what body you're using, they're always a sure bet. As is abuse of Greater Mighty Wallop (which is where the "what is a monk?" question gets even bigger, as many monk optimizers will assume the monk has bought an item of this spell).


Let's take a split approach: A Nezumi Warblade with Fleet of Foot and Absolute Steel Stance for 60' movement (or maybe dip a level of Barbarian if you want the stance open). Rather than all-in on strength, you can shift some to dex to fill out light armor since you can't afford Halfweight efficiently at this level (and you're using a shield, obviously). Close-Quarters Combat ought to neutralize grappling, while fort save and maneuvers will deal with the Stunning Fist option. There's no good counter for tripping normally (I've nerfed it an added an item myself), so you'll just have to deal there. And that's about it really, the rest is just filling out and ramping up to taste.


As for 5e, well I'm sure the 5e board would supply something, but there's so much less to actually build and optimize than it's not much of a question in my opinion (though there's been enough splat creep that there might be some stuff now). 5e is even more explicit about PC classes not being made for PvP, and you'd counter a monk there by just being better than them, same as anyone else- I don't recall any particular weaknesses unless you take the shadow magic one and you're fighting something where your magic it useless.

[MultitudeMan]

Dancing Knight doesn't need to move straight backwards.

Fair enough, it just seemed like too apt a reference to pass up!

[Lord Of Forks]

This has the feel of a utter jerk move.
Of the kind that screams bad gm. Its certainly one where i think the motivation behind could likely use a little scrutiny.
Im also honestly disapointed at how many people respond without thinking.
If the request had been "i want to humiliate one of my players" would your answer have been the same?

Woah nelly, climb down off that high-horse before you start taking mounted combat feats.
If a person is looking for a way to murder a monk, humiliate their players, or generally be a bad DM, they're going to find it whether or not we assist in it.
Posting a response on the assumption that they're asking for some reason beyond being a 'jerk' really isn't that off the wall.
I know I personally theorize all kinds of things I would never put into a game I DM.

[lord_khaine]

Woah nelly, climb down off that high-horse before you start taking mounted combat feats.
If a person is looking for a way to murder a monk, humiliate their players, or generally be a bad DM, they're going to find it whether or not we assist in it.
Posting a response on the assumption that they're asking for some reason beyond being a 'jerk' really isn't that off the wall.
I know I personally theorize all kinds of things I would never put into a game I DM.

Nope. Those feats are quite useful for dealing with trolls and worse.
And... you are aware, that your justification for (potentially) enabling a bad GM has now become "if I dont do it, then someone else will" ? smallsigh:

[Telonius]

Monkslayer build ... not sure how I'd do it, but a character that could cause a suit of Half-Plate to appear on a Monk (or teleport a Monk inside a suit of half-plate) would be pretty high on the list. Being able to do that would negate the Monk's AC bonus, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, and Evasion abilities. 1d4+1 minutes to get out of it, too. (This would also work as a great debuff against Druids; no spellcasting or wildshape for 24 hours).

[ben-zayb]

This has the feel of a utter jerk move.
Of the kind that screams bad gm. Its certainly one where i think the motivation behind could likely use a little scrutiny.
Im also honestly disapointed at how many people respond without thinking.
If the request had been "i want to humiliate one of my players" would your answer have been the same?Reading over the thread, I can't believe it took 16 posts before this was raised at all.

Considering the nature of the request, I'm pretty sure it's more important to find out if there was an OOC issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost, than jump right in with in-game solutions

It barely takes effort to be better at what monks are good at anyway. Just look at Swordsage.

[Unavenger]

Any information could be used to be a good GM or a bad GM or neither. The fact that the OP needs a 5e build as well (I recommend hawkheaded aven kensai just for the fun of wrecking 99% of monks with a monk) makes it abundantly clear that they're not looking to mess with a specific monk. Is it possible that they're gonna do something horrible with this info? Of course. It's possible that they'll do something horrible with any info. I try not to have such a dim view of my fellow human as to suppose out of the gate that they will, though.

[noob]

A barbarian that uses brute force over subtlety and that does not tries to reach mastery of the physical and spiritual self and instead turns into a giant bear and then gets really really angry (the two normal barbarian prcs: frenzied berseker and the one that turns you into a bear)

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Slain monks should not be used for necromancy.