Necromancer wants to raise animal skeletons

[danpit2991]

So would it be unreasonable for one of my players to be allowed to raise non humanoid skeletons and zombies? What restrictions would y'all reccomend? Off the top of my head maybe a CR cap on what he can raise? He wants a skeleton horse and a pack of skeleton dogs , I just am afraid of a bunch of dire bear zombies lol

[Slipperychicken]

I'd go with a "whitelist" approach: have a short list of things that you have stats for and which you like. Maybe just horse and dog for now. That way you won't have some kind of open-ended commitment to any animal skeleton he can think of.


Warhorse skeleton statblock (CR 1/2) looks reasonable, but I'd have it count as two undead for the purpose of limits and things like that

For a skeleton dog, I'd probably just give him the mastiff statblock (CR 1/8) with bludgeoning vulnerability and immunity to poison. It's a bit weaker in combat, but it has utility because it has speed 40 and advantage on scent and hearing perception, which seems like a fair tradeoff to me

I wouldn't give him anything with flying, that just has way too much potential for abuse. The spell is already really strong.

[danpit2991]

Yeah that seems like a good plan, no zombie gryphons or wyverns ..... maybe a pigeon tho

[JackPhoenix]

Standard skeletons or zombies are CR 1/2, that should give you an idea of the intended power level.


For a skeleton dog, I'd probably just give him the mastiff statblock (CR 1/8) with bludgeoning vulnerability and immunity to poison. It's a bit weaker in combat, but it has utility because it has speed 40 and advantage on scent and hearing perception, which seems like a fair tradeoff to me

I wouldn't give him anything with flying, that just has way too much potential for abuse. The spell is already really strong.

Why would the dog skeleton keep it's keen senses when it won't have ears or nose? Same with flying things.... birds won't fly if all they have are bare bones.

[Joe the Rat]

For my resident Necromancer, I used upcasting - +1 level required for each size category over medium, +1 for nonhumanoid. That does mean a horse skeleton is a bit punitive - a 5th level casting - so you may want to cut or reframe options - beasts are okay, but monstrosities takes an upcast, for example.

[samuraijaques]

I've been playing a necromancer and my dm and I have been using a homebrew rule where instead of getting a number of skeletons or zombies you get an equivalent amount of xp worth of undead. When I want to make an undead version of a monster we have killed we just use the skeleton or zombie template in the dmg monsters section. It's been working extremely well and has made my necromancer a lot more fun to play.

[JoeJ]

Why would the dog skeleton keep it's keen senses when it won't have ears or nose? Same with flying things.... birds won't fly if all they have are bare bones.

What makes you think it would be any harder for undead birds to fly without feathers than it is for undead humans to walk without muscles? Or for undead anything to see without eyes?

[JackPhoenix]

What makes you think it would be any harder for undead birds to fly without feathers than it is for undead humans to walk without muscles? Or for undead anything to see without eyes?

The undead bird can flap its bones all day long, but there's nothing to provide it with lift. Necromancy allows the bones to move, but it doesn't allow it to magically fly. And as for the senses, it's the same story: a pile of drow bones won't retain their superior darkvision when it starts walking around, but it'll get the standard undead 60', the same a human (or any other creature that never had darkvision before being undeadified) skeleton would have.

If Animate Dead gives undead birds magical ability to ignore gravity, why it doesn't do the same for every single other skeleton?

[JoeJ]

The undead bird can flap its bones all day long, but there's nothing to provide it with lift. Necromancy allows the bones to move, but it doesn't allow it to magically fly. And as for the senses, it's the same story: a pile of drow bones won't retain their superior darkvision when it starts walking around, but it'll get the standard undead 60', the same a human (or any other creature that never had darkvision before being undeadified) skeleton would have.

If Animate Dead gives undead birds magical ability to ignore gravity, why it doesn't do the same for every single other skeleton?

It does give every other skeleton the ability to ignore gravity. If it didn't, they wouldn't stand up at all.

[No brains]

IIRC the pile of bones needed to animate a default skeleton doesn't have to be human. In theory, if they have enough chicken bones, a necromancer can pastiche them into a skeleton warrior.

I feel like this bit of rules silliness works because it makes skeletal minions more monstrous and helps to define what the spell does. It isn't reanimating a body so much as creating a host for a humanoid-shaped monster to inhabit.

Then again, if a DM wants to allow more flexibility, that can create fun flavor and memories.

[DeTess]

The undead bird can flap its bones all day long, but there's nothing to provide it with lift. Necromancy allows the bones to move, but it doesn't allow it to magically fly. And as for the senses, it's the same story: a pile of drow bones won't retain their superior darkvision when it starts walking around, but it'll get the standard undead 60', the same a human (or any other creature that never had darkvision before being undeadified) skeleton would have.

If Animate Dead gives undead birds magical ability to ignore gravity, why it doesn't do the same for every single other skeleton?

Well, that's obvious. The necromantic energies use the basic concept of the creature, an image of the specie's common soul if you will, to determine how the odd collections of bones should behave. As part of this process the creature's most common capabilities, such as the ability to walk on two legs or fly can eb replicated, even though necessary physical characteristics, such as a brain for precise balancing or wing membranes to fly are lacking. Given this basic property of necromantic spells it would be more difficult to not have a skeleton have the basic properties associated with the species. However, this same basic property also makes it impossible to add features a creature doesn't have. Adding a giant eagle's wings to a humanoid's skeleton won't allow you to animate it as a flying humanoid, for example, because the spell doesn't recognize that as a universal property of the skeleton.

Of course, master necromancers can create such compound skeletons, but it requires very specific spells that don't rely as much on the creature's innate capabilities. Essentially, such a spell would have to individually describe all the motions the skeleton should be capable off, and it's very easy for a novice to forget something important and end up with anon-functional clump of 'animated' bones.

It's really not difficult to come up with an in-game fluff reason for this. If a skeleton can move without muscles because of magic, there's no reason why a skeleton bird can't fly because magic.

[JackPhoenix]

It does give every other skeleton the ability to ignore gravity. If it didn't, they wouldn't stand up at all.

Last time I've checked, skeletons still had to walk like everyone else. If they can ignore gravity, why don't they all have fly speed?

Magic serving as replacement muscle is not the same thing as having a thruster up your pelvis.


Well, that's obvious. The necromantic energies use the basic concept of the creature, an image of the specie's common soul if you will, to determine how the odd collections of bones should behave. As part of this process the creature's most common capabilities, such as the ability to walk on two legs or fly can eb replicated, even though necessary physical characteristics, such as a brain for precise balancing or wing membranes to fly are lacking. Given this basic property of necromantic spells it would be more difficult to not have a skeleton have the basic properties associated with the species. However, this same basic property also makes it impossible to add features a creature doesn't have. Adding a giant eagle's wings to a humanoid's skeleton won't allow you to animate it as a flying humanoid, for example, because the spell doesn't recognize that as a universal property of the skeleton.

Of course, master necromancers can create such compound skeletons, but it requires very specific spells that don't rely as much on the creature's innate capabilities. Essentially, such a spell would have to individually describe all the motions the skeleton should be capable off, and it's very easy for a novice to forget something important and end up with anon-functional clump of 'animated' bones.

It's really not difficult to come up with an in-game fluff reason for this. If a skeleton can move without muscles because of magic, there's no reason why a skeleton bird can't fly because magic.

Except, of course, that's provably false. Aarakocra can fly, but if you cast Animate Dead on its bones, you'll get standard, non-flying skeleton, the same you would get from a tiefling (with no fire resistance), orc (with no extra carrying capacity) or a human (who, unlike the skeleton, lacks the ability to see in the dark). Or, if you decide to read the spell that way and ignore the "of a humanoid" part, from an assorted pile of bones from dozens different creatures who may not have been even remotely humanoid in form.

[Kalashak]

What makes you think it would be any harder for undead birds to fly without feathers than it is for undead humans to walk without muscles? Or for undead anything to see without eyes?
The fact that the spell is still having to do those two things on the undead bird in addition to the first one

[JoeJ]

Last time I've checked, skeletons still had to walk like everyone else. If they can ignore gravity, why don't they all have fly speed?

Why would they have a fly speed? They couldn't fly in life. They still defy gravity by standing upright.


Magic serving as replacement muscle is not the same thing as having a thruster up your pelvis.

Living birds don't have a thruster up their pelvis either, so I guess they can't fly? Why does it blow your mind for a spell that magically does the work of muscles, tendons, and eyes to also magically do the work of feathers? Zombie beholders fly so why shouldn't skeletal eagles do the same?

[Coidzor]

I encountered something that was put together by someone on Homebrewery once which turns the remains of beasts into generic undead forms equivalent to skeletons, ghouls, wights, etc. About the only thing retained from the base creature was their movement speed. Unfortunately it was passed onto me in a form where the only credits on it were for the art assets used.

That said, it should be fairly straightforward to put together 1/4 CR chassis based on Skeletons and Zombies, at least.

[Slipperychicken]

Why would the dog skeleton keep it's keen senses when it won't have ears or nose? Same with flying things.... birds won't fly if all they have are bare bones.

Why would a skeleton keep it's senses at all when it won't have any sensory organs? Same for all types of movement, people won't move if they don't have muscles or other components of the motor system. Why would an undead wizard keep his knowledge when his brain is gone?

We can derail this thread with unrelated nitpicking over the impossible anatomy of fictional monsters until we're all miserable, or we can suspend our disbelief like every other consumer of fantasy content. I recommend the latter.

[Monster Manuel]

We can derail this thread with unrelated nitpicking over the impossible anatomy of fictional monsters until we're all miserable, or we can suspend our disbelief like every other consumer of fantasy content. I recommend the latter.

I don't see this discussion as derailing the thread...I think it's the key question that the OP needs to resolve.

Maybe we can back it up to pure game mechanics, rather than the specific structural functions of any given set of bones, though. The spell, as written, turns bones into a Skeleton, as defined in the MM, with the given stats for that skeleton, which include Darkvision, but not Flight. Similarly, it turns a dead body into a Zombie, again, as defined in the MM. So, RAW, the OP can't do what they're asking for...the spell created humanoid Skeletons and Zombies, not animals. If we're going to set guidelines around how to create animal skeletons, it's fair to discuss what an animal skeleton can and can't do.

In other words, maybe the question isn't "can a featherless bird skeleton fly?", but instead "should this spell be able to create a flying minion creature?"

My take on this is that there should be a separate spell that handles this. Like a more flexible version of the 6th level Create Undead can be used to animate skeletons and zombies apart from the basic humanoid flavors. Use the updated Ranger companions from the Class Variant UA as a guide; the Beast of the Earth is a basic set of stats, which can be re-skinned to be whatever kind of four-legged, terrestrial animal you want it to be. Create a flexible, skinnable "Beast Zombie" creature, with a set of basic attributes that you would want an animal zombie to have, and re-skin it for when they want a zombie bear, or wolf, or cow, or whatever. It would have, say, 3HD, a bite or a slam/claw attack(pick one), Medium-sized, with a 30 ft movement rate (slower than baseline because zombie). Do another one for "Small Flying Zombie" for a zombie eagle, owl, or pseudodragon, and a "Large Flying Zombie" for an animated Wyvern, Griffon, or Giant Eagle. This way, you're sticking to the intent of the Animate spell, which is "you cast the spell and get this specific thing with these specific stats", but you give the player a little more flexibility to be playful with what he's Animating.

I haven't done this yet, and it sounds like a lot of work to do it well. But it's a possible solution.


I just am afraid of a bunch of dire bear zombies lol
As an aside, I did exactly this in a 3e capaign, when I broke a siege that had us trapped in a hunting lodge/keep when I animated the owner's taxidermy collection, and zombie dire bears smashed out through the main gates and annihilated the assembled attackers. It was in that epic and hilarious moment, sitting on the horns of my animated minotaur mount for a better view, that I had to admit that the Animate Dead rules were a little broken...

[Kurt Kurageous]

I'm so glad that this sub forum exists.

Such a great debate over the fantasy world's rules on animate dead. No name calling, little heat, just points made and taken.

Take a moment and be proud of what has happened here.

[JackPhoenix]

Why would they have a fly speed? They couldn't fly in life. They still defy gravity by standing upright.

They don't. They require ground to stand on. They don't defy gravity any more than the chair I sit on does.


Living birds don't have a thruster up their pelvis either, so I guess they can't fly? Why does it blow your mind for a spell that magically does the work of muscles, tendons, and eyes to also magically do the work of feathers? Zombie beholders fly so why shouldn't skeletal eagles do the same?

Because the skeleton doesn't have invisible, but corporeal muscles, or feathers. It's jut bones moving on their own. Bare bone does not provide enough lift to fly.

Zombie beholders a) still have their fleshy bits and b) were already flying using magic rather than wings while alive. Skeletal eagles don't, and didn't. Zombie eagles propably can fly, though.


Why would a skeleton keep it's senses at all when it won't have any sensory organs?

It wouldn't, and it doesn't, that's the point. The original senses are replaced by 60' darkvision. You can see that with minotaur, whose skeleton version loses the +7 Perception bonus.


Why would an undead wizard keep his knowledge when his brain is gone?

He doesn't if he's a skeleton. There's nothing left of the person that provided the bones for a skeleton, no personality, no memories.

[stoutstien]

I don't think any logical point based on reality makes for good baseline of ruling when it comes to DnD in general. Player wants a skeleton crow? Sure it can still fly because why not.
As long as the creatures In question are within the same effective power of the standard zombie or skeleton I see no problems.

[Monster Manuel]

He doesn't if he's a skeleton. There's nothing left of the person that provided the bones for a skeleton, no personality, no memories.

Agreed. I think the reference to the mage keeping its' magic knowledge is referring to a Lich, not a Skeleton. But that's apples to oranges. There's a Thing That Exists in the rules, called a skeleton. it has certain stats and abilities. This is what you get when you animate a dead guy's bones, whether he was a commoner or a 20th level archmage. There's also a Thing That Exists in the rules called a skeletal horse. It has its' own stats and abilities, but they are not relevant to the Animate Dead spell, because that's not the Thing it makes. There is no Skeletal Eagle in the RAW, as far as I know, so it's hard to make an assumption of what one would be capable of, on its own.

The way they did Skeletons and Zombies in the 5E rules makes them their own creature, independent of what they were before being animated. It fixes the issue of how hard it is to balance the ability to reanimate certain creatures, but does so in a way that makes necomancy boring, and I think that's the issue people keep running into.

Short of a complete overhaul of the Animate spell, the Zombie/Skeleton creature, or both, I still think the best way to make this work given the existing ruleset is to homebrew new, specific undead that do what the OP player wants to do ("I want a zombie wolf"), and homebrew or tweak an existing spell that lets them have that thing, at an appropriate level. There are no overarching "skeleton rules" we can distill from the existing creatures, we have to take each type of skeleton as its own thing.

[JoeJ]

They don't. They require ground to stand on. They don't defy gravity any more than the chair I sit on does.

Or any more than the skeletal bird does, since it would be supported by air just like a living bird.


Because the skeleton doesn't have invisible, but corporeal muscles, or feathers. It's jut bones moving on their own. Bare bone does not provide enough lift to fly.

What's your source for this? The spell description for Animate Dead doesn't say that it magically moves bones, but only walking. It says that it "imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life." It seems to me that a foul mimicry of flying life should be able to fly. They don't need flesh to fly; the Rule of Cool provides enough lift.


Zombie beholders a) still have their fleshy bits and b) were already flying using magic rather than wings while alive. Skeletal eagles don't, and didn't. Zombie eagles propably can fly, though.

What's your source for beholder flight being magical? Nothing in the MM or Volo's indicates that beholders fly magically (Volo's calls the ability "natural"), and in several sources back in AD&D it was specified to be a non-magical ability.



Short of a complete overhaul of the Animate spell, the Zombie/Skeleton creature, or both, I still think the best way to make this work given the existing ruleset is to homebrew new, specific undead that do what the OP player wants to do ("I want a zombie wolf"), and homebrew or tweak an existing spell that lets them have that thing, at an appropriate level. There are no overarching "skeleton rules" we can distill from the existing creatures, we have to take each type of skeleton as its own thing.

As a matter of balance, I think this is probably right. Allow the PC to research a unique spell to create the unique undead they want.

[JackPhoenix]

Or any more than the skeletal bird does, since it would be supported by air just like a living bird.

It wouldn't, because birds aren't "supported by air". Birds don't fly just because they are birds, the physics of bird flight is pretty complex (https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=760). With no feathers, the skeleton lacks the wing surface (and shape) it requires to achieve flight, even if magic allows it to flap its wingbones despite being just a pile of bones.


What's your source for this? The spell description for Animate Dead doesn't say that it magically moves bones, but only walking. It says that it "imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life." It seems to me that a foul mimicry of flying life should be able to fly. They don't need flesh to fly; the Rule of Cool provides enough lift.

Skeleton's description in the MM: "Whatever sinister force awakens a skeleton infuses its bones with a dark vitality, adhering joint to joint and reassembling dismantled limbs. This energy motivates a skeleton to move and think in a rudimentary fashion, though only as a pale imitation of the way it behaved in life."


What's your source for beholder flight being magical? Nothing in the MM or Volo's indicates that beholders fly magically (Volo's calls the ability "natural"), and in several sources back in AD&D it was specified to be a non-magical ability.

SCAG, p. 18: "The Weave is an essential element of the universe, running through everything in unseen threads. Some creatures, objects, and locations have deep, intrinsic ties to the Weave and can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder's flight, a vampire's charming gaze, a dragon's breath weapon, and so forth)."

[Garfunion]

Perhaps we should look at the animate object spell, when it comes to creating an animate dead beast spell. Animate object spell does allow items that normally wouldn’t fly the ability to fly.

[ImproperJustice]

I would only raise undead cats.

That way you can be a true Nekomancer

[intregus]

My table has been using this animate dead overhaul for years. It works well and is very fun!
It's more akin to how animate dead worked in 3.5 where skeletons did not retain things like flight, unless they flew magically like dragons but the zombie version of creatures would.
Animate Dead
3rd-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 feel
Components: V,S, M(a drop of blood, a piece of flesh,
and a pinch of bone dust)
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell turns the bones or bodies of a dead creature with a maximum CR of 1 into an undead skeleton or zombie that will follow your commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.). The target becomes a skeleton or a zombie if you so choose. To raise a creature from the dead as a skeleton add the Skeleton Template listed below to the creature's stat block. To create a Zombie add the Zombie template listed below to the creature’s stat block. This spell does not work on constructs, elementals, oozes, plants or other undead creatures. On each of your turns, you can use a bonus action to mentally command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. lf you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete.The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you've given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell animates or reasserts your control over a combined total of CR1 undead creatures(undead creatures with a CR of 0 count as a CR of ⅛ for determining how many undead creatures you can control).
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you may animate or reassert control over a creature with a CR of 2 and the CR increases by 1 for every slot level above 3rd.
Skeleton Template
Size and Type- The base creature’s size does not change. The base creature’s type changes to undead.
AC-AC is reduced by 2
HP-2 x the amount of HD of the base creature + the Hit die average of the base creature
Speed-A winged skeleton cannot use their wings to fly unless the base creature flew magically then so can the skeleton. A skeleton retains the base walking and climbing speeds of the base creature.
Abilities- STR stays the same, Dex +2, CON becomes 15 and HP is adjusted accordingly, INT -4, WIS stays the same, CHA becomes a -4
Proficiencies- A Skeleton retains all of the weapon and armor proficiencies as the base creature. A skeleton is not proficient in any skills or saving throws.
Damage Vulnerabilities- Bludgeoning
Damage Immunities- Poison
Condition Immunities-Exhaustion, poisoned
Senses- Darkvision 60ft
Languages- understands all languages it knew in life but can't speak
Traits- lose the multiattack trait if they have it.
Lose any special attacks or abilities that rely on flesh such as keen hearing and smell, or a scorpion's sting.
Actions- lose all legendary actions
CR- same as base creature

Zombie Template
Size and Type- The base creature’s size does not change. The base creature’s type changes to undead.
AC- -3
HP-3 x the amount of HD of the base creature + the Hit die average of the base creature
Speed- Same as base creature.
Abilities- STR +1, Dex stays the same, CON becomes a 16, Int -6, Wis -4, Cha -4
Proficiencies- Retains all of the weapon and armor proficiencies as the base creature. A zombie gains proficiency in wisdom and loses proficiency in all other saving throws.
Damage Immunities- Poison
Condition Immunities- poisoned
Senses- Darkvision 60ft
Languages- understands all languages it knew in life but can't speak
Traits- lose the multiattack trait if they have it.
Undead fortitude-If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit
points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC
of 5 +the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or
from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit
point instead.
Special- Some traits may or may not transfer over from the base creature like a Beholders antimagic cone. These traits are DM dependant.
Actions- Lose all legendary actions if it has any
CR- same as base creature.

[JoeJ]

It wouldn't, because birds aren't "supported by air". Birds don't fly just because they are birds, the physics of bird flight is pretty complex (https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=760). With no feathers, the skeleton lacks the wing surface (and shape) it requires to achieve flight, even if magic allows it to flap its wingbones despite being just a pile of bones.

The physics of our world may be interesting but it's not a good predictor for the behavior of anything supernatural, such as the undead.


Skeleton's description in the MM: "Whatever sinister force awakens a skeleton infuses its bones with a dark vitality, adhering joint to joint and reassembling dismantled limbs. This energy motivates a skeleton to move and think in a rudimentary fashion, though only as a pale imitation of the way it behaved in life."

"A pale imitation of the way it behaved in life." So it would fly (probably poorly) in a pale imitation of the way it flew in life. Not only is that the most straightforward reading, it also corresponds with the Rule of Cool.


SCAG, p. 18: "The Weave is an essential element of the universe, running through everything in unseen threads. Some creatures, objects, and locations have deep, intrinsic ties to the Weave and can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder's flight, a vampire's charming gaze, a dragon's breath weapon, and so forth)."

Thank you. I was not aware of that passage. :)

[JackPhoenix]

The physics of our world may be interesting but it's not a good predictor for the behavior of anything supernatural, such as the undead.

Bird's flight is not supernatural, no matter if the bird itself is undead or not. The supernatural element provides movement that would normally be achieved by muscle contraction and all that biological crap, but nothing indicates it serves as replacement for missing body parts causing the lack of necessary wing area. If you pluck or trim the living bird's wings, it won't be able to fly either.


"A pale imitation of the way it behaved in life." So it would fly (probably poorly) in a pale imitation of the way it flew in life. Not only is that the most straightforward reading, it also corresponds with the Rule of Cool.

Well, bird which can't fly is a pale imitation of normal bird, so.... yeah. Rule of Cool has nothing to do with it, and it's not a rule in the first place.

In life, the bird flapped its wings, and due to related physics, it could fly. Or glide. In undead, the skeleton can flap its wingbones all it wants, but the same physics says that bare bone is not enough to give it any lift.

[JoeJ]

Bird's flight is not supernatural, no matter if the bird itself is undead or not. The supernatural element provides movement that would normally be achieved by muscle contraction and all that biological crap, but nothing indicates it serves as replacement for missing body parts causing the lack of necessary wing area. If you pluck or trim the living bird's wings, it won't be able to fly either.

A living bird's flight is not supernatural. An undead bird's flight is supernatural, just like everything else about it. It's ability to walk is supernatural, it's perception is supernatural, it's ability to attack is supernatural. The very existence of the undead is a violation of the laws of nature.


In life, the bird flapped its wings, and due to related physics, it could fly. Or glide. In undead, the skeleton can flap its wingbones all it wants, but the same physics says that bare bone is not enough to give it any lift.

Physics describes the natural world, not things that are inherently unnatural. The same physics that says bare bones don't have lift also says that they don't have any way of moving, or even of holding themselves together. The laws of physics do not predict or describe the supernatural.

[Bohandas]

They don't. They require ground to stand on. They don't defy gravity any more than the chair I sit on does.



Because the skeleton doesn't have invisible, but corporeal muscles, or feathers. It's jut bones moving on their own. Bare bone does not provide enough lift to fly.

Zombie beholders a) still have their fleshy bits and b) were already flying using magic rather than wings while alive. Skeletal eagles don't, and didn't. Zombie eagles propably can fly, though.

Point of order. Beholders fly by being less dense than air.

[nothinglord]

Prior editions set a precedent for this. Zombified creatures with wings kept their fly speeds (presumably because their wings had shape to actually push air), while their Skeleton equivalents did not (because they lack the ability to push on air).

However, Zombies were permanently Staggered (only a move or standard action), while skeletons weren't. As 5e Zombies don't have any such limitation, it would be reasonable to decrease their other movement speeds either by 10ft or by 1/3.

[JackPhoenix]

A living bird's flight is not supernatural. An undead bird's flight is supernatural, just like everything else about it. It's ability to walk is supernatural, it's perception is supernatural, it's ability to attack is supernatural. The very existence of the undead is a violation of the laws of nature.

Physics describes the natural world, not things that are inherently unnatural. The same physics that says bare bones don't have lift also says that they don't have any way of moving, or even of holding themselves together. The laws of physics do not predict or describe the supernatural.

Just because some aspects of existence of undead is magical doesn't mean everything they do is magical. Zombies and skeletons are still affected by gravity and other forces as any living being would. Animate Dead is not Fly.


Point of order. Beholders fly by being less dense than air.

Not in 5e. See the quote few posts above.... they fly due to innate connection to the Weave, i.e. magic.


Prior editions set a precedent for this. Zombified creatures with wings kept their fly speeds (presumably because their wings had shape to actually push air), while their Skeleton equivalents did not (because they lack the ability to push on air).

However, Zombies were permanently Staggered (only a move or standard action), while skeletons weren't. As 5e Zombies don't have any such limitation, it would be reasonable to decrease their other movement speeds either by 10ft or by 1/3.

Indeed. Notably, 5e zombie have move speed of 20' compared to most humanoid's 30', similarily ogre zombie is 10' slower than living ogre, same with dinosaur zombies from ToA. Beholder zombie is an exception, but that one has no walking speed in the first place, and its flight is already slow enough, and also magical.

It should also be noted that the one skeletal undead that can fly in 5e is dracolich, which a) isn't just bare bones and does have "tattered wings", b) is a dragon, whose flight is semi-magical in the first place, just like their breath weapons, and c) also created by a much more powerful magic than a normal skeleton.

[NaughtyTiger]

Well, that's obvious. The necromantic energies use the basic concept of the creature, an image of the specie's common soul if you will, to determine how the odd collections of bones should behave. As part of this process the creature's most common capabilities, such as the ability to walk on two legs or fly can eb replicated, even though necessary physical characteristics, such as a brain for precise balancing or wing membranes to fly are lacking. Given this basic property of necromantic spells it would be more difficult to not have a skeleton have the basic properties associated with the species. However, this same basic property also makes it impossible to add features a creature doesn't have. Adding a giant eagle's wings to a humanoid's skeleton won't allow you to animate it as a flying humanoid, for example, because the spell doesn't recognize that as a universal property of the skeleton.

Of course, master necromancers can create such compound skeletons, but it requires very specific spells that don't rely as much on the creature's innate capabilities. Essentially, such a spell would have to individually describe all the motions the skeleton should be capable off, and it's very easy for a novice to forget something important and end up with anon-functional clump of 'animated' bones.

Ah, necro 101. that was such a good class. so many many centuries ago.


Just because some aspects of existence of undead is magical doesn't mean everything they do is magical. Zombies and skeletons are still affected by gravity and other forces as any living being would. Animate Dead is not Fly.

Jack, you are surprisingly spun up on this one.
The OP didn't ask about RAW, so you are arguing that your fantasy world is the only right one. that ain't cool.
as someone pointed out, skeletons aren't affected by gravity and other forces as a living being: they ain't living, they move without muscles, their bones are held in place without connective tissue, cuz magic. therefore, it is quite reasonable for folks to view flying skeletons as a thing.

[Imbalance]

How about a skeletonized snake? Now, we know it doesn't fly, but it also doesn't walk. In life, it slithered on its belly, but without that flesh can it move at all? Do its rib bones snag as it attempts to riggle in unlife? Or does it hover just so in its pale imitation?

Does a bonefish swim? Surely its protrusions hamper hydrodynamic motion, yes? Without a natural ballast between its gills, how does it know which way is up?

Human bipedal balance is governed by parts and fluids of the inner ear, therefore those absent from a skull must mean the necromanced skeleton topples immediately upon taking a step, right?

Yeah, no, flight must be impossible for a reanimated skeletal construct.

[stoutstien]

Point of order. Beholders fly by being less dense than air.

They fly because they have a fly speeds or In this case a hovering speed. That pretty much the extent of thought that is needed.
Want unicorns to fly? Give them a fly speed. Same for skeleton birds or whatever as long as it is consistent with in the logic of the game world it doesn't matter.

[Bohandas]

Not in 5e. See the quote few posts above.... they fly due to innate connection to the Weave, i.e. magic.

Well than its a retcon. I cite I, Tyrant pg.24 which states that a beholder's flight as being due to being suffused with super-light gas, and Lords of Madness pg.39 which notes that a beholder's flesh is naturally buoyant in air