need help building a level 40 character

[jaekaido]

okay so i have a chance to play in an epic level campaign. the starting level is 40. i have an idea for a winterwolf totemist but i can't seem to find anything else that would work well with it. i would would like some sort of casting and was thinking of adding duskblade levels to do both. does anyone here in the Playground have any advice?

[martixy]

Pft. Your 40 levels are pointless if you have no dream build you've always wanted to run. Give us an idea.

[jaekaido]

well the problem i am having is figuring out how playing a monster race really works i have savage species but for some reason i am not understanding how it works. in the MM1 the Winter Wolf have a LA of +3 (cohort) and 6 racial hitdie. from what i understand that would mean that it starts at level10 with having 1 class level. which i would rather take an additional racial hit die to make it an even 10. which would allow me to take 7 levels of totemist, 13 levels of duskblade and then take some sort of prestige class that can improve both if i can find one. so right now i have totemist 7/duskblade 13/x 10. is that how it would work or am i missing something?

[martixy]

You're still thinking class and race instead of character ideas. You seriously never had some character concept you've always wanted to do in D&D? A fantasy character from a book or movie you've been in love with, but couldn't do because of not enough levels?

In any case, if LA buyoff is in play, it gives you 4 free LA you can play around with (the max LA you can buy off to 0 with 40 levels). 5 LA is also viable. Racial hit dice however are like a cinder block block around your feet. Avoid those as much as possible.

[jaekaido]

well the concept is to have a wollf that eventually has a cannon-like attack that either comes from the mouth as a howling thing or from his back like a strapped on cannon other than that no at least nothing i haven't built already. i would play my teleporting swodsman but i can't find any good ways to build him as he needs to be able to teleport between attacks during a fullround action so if you can figure that one out i would be set.

[GrayDeath]

I agree with martixy.

Unless your DM gives a very specific setting, this is THE chance to paly the weird, much too many level/CLas/Race stuff dependant thing you always wanted to paly.

Ignore classes and details for now, and just write up what comes to mind. Get your Inspiration going.

And maybe ask, given the Level limits, how your DM treats LA/RHD Calculation, or higher HD Mosnter Characters (the one time I played in an epic Mosnter Game, we used "Mosnter as CR=ECL", just as inspiration).


Otherwise youll probably only end up with an optimized boring OP Character (aside from Epic Play as written being near unplayable anyway).

For me for example, this would be finally being able to play a Pit Fiend CLeric of Asmodeus. ^^

Edit: Saw the COncept.
Might be easiest with a Wolf FOrm Shapechanger Warlock/Initiator.

[jaekaido]

well like i said that is my idea i just don't know what to do at this point i have always wanted to play a winter wolf but don't know what add to it to make it effective. i was also thinking of something like a master of the unseen hand

[Hellpyre]

I would play my teleporting swodsman but i can't find any good ways to build him as he needs to be able to teleport between attacks during a fullround action so if you can figure that one out i would be set.

It isn't between each attack per se, but would teleporting between each of four sets of full attacks each round interest you?

[jaekaido]

is it possible to teleport as a move action cos if so i can use that with spring attack

[Hellpyre]

is it possible to teleport as a move action cos if so i can use that with spring attack

It is possible to teleport as a standard, move, or swift action just with Shadow Hand manuevers from ToB

[AvatarVecna]

Human Bard 40 gets 7+Int maxed out skills; take the Bardic Knack ACF, and the Jack Of All Trades feat, and now you effectively have 20 ranks in every other skill, and can make checks with them even if they're trained only. You've got 6 non-epic, 7 epic, and 6 epic bard bonus feats to work with, as well as lvl 40 WBL; you could focus this around boosting your casting, boosting your bardic music, or boosting both. Careful building could get you enough Inspire Courage/Greatness optimization to really support your allies in combat, with enough skills and spells to cover utility without you having access to some of the powerful story-breaking magic that just naturally seeps into the game past 6th lvl spells. This could easily be a character that is highly useful in every situation, but is never overpowered, and is never going to be good enough at any particular thing that an ally specializing in that thing will feel overshadowed. The best part is, however you take it, it's basically unconnected to any specific fluff, so you could fit all kinds of characters to this build.

Telthor template (race up to you, but probably Human) going into any kind of dedicated Rogue build. Epic levels allow you to pick up the Fast Healing feat (overcoming the big weakness of the Telthor template), leaving you with a TWF-SA build with incorporeality, Dex to attack, melee attacks targeting Touch AC, and a built-in Fly speed that isn't so fast as to leave companions behind. Ghost Assassin is also just generally a pretty cool idea?

Go way too far optimizing a Healer; combine a whole buncha stuff from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603723) to make a character who can get their allies back on their feat more or less constantly.

[jaekaido]

well the idea is to be able to use spring attack and teleport either as a move action or swift action and cannot be a spell or power. that said the only way i know of to get a teleport like that is with totemist 2 taking the blink shirt and binding it to the totem chakra, or the dragonmarked feats for the mark of passage. i can't think of any other form of at-will teleportation that doesn't eat up a standard action. i am currently looking up different teleportation abilities and short of playing a demon or taking several prestige classes (which i might do at this point) i am not finding anything useful. i did plan on taking swordsage levels for the shadow hand maneuvers but i am going to need more than just those as i need the same ability for more than once per battle incase i need to use it outside which tob doesn't have a mechanic like that, at least that i know of.

what would a good progression for a teleporter be which is where my problem comes in. i have seen several builds so far but i can't seem to make them work in my favor without having to build a pouncer which i don't want.

[magic9mushroom]

I can't give specific advice until I know what kind of character you're going for, but I will give out one very general piece of advice - if Rule One of building a subepic character is Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels, Rule One of building an epic character is Thou Shalt Have An Epic Feat Progression.

That is, all levels you take past 20 should be in either a base class taken past 20, a prestige class taken past 10, or an epic prestige class. Those give bonus epic feats, and epic feats are the main way you get epic power (the rest is from epic PrC class features).

I will also link you to my list of all epic content here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18875.0). It's complete as far as classes go: there's also a bit of epic content in Lost Empires of Faerun (including two epic spell seeds) and a couple of random epic spells (but nothing substantive or relevant) in Sandstorm and Frostburn.


Racial hit dice however are like a cinder block block around your feet. Avoid those as much as possible.

Eh, less so at epic than you might think. A few RHD or otherwise-dead levels won't actually slow you down much as long as you've still got your epic feat progression and the prereqs for the epic feats you want to take. A couple of Outsider hit dice can actually be a net benefit.

[jaekaido]

okay well her is what i am looking at right now.

totemist2/duskblade20/jaunter4/blade of orien10/x4

[martixy]

So... given that you're going epic which is like broken anyway, see if you can get to use the Dimensional Agility feat line from Pathfinder + Telflammar Shadowlord for extreme TP shenanigans. Bump your speed to high heavens and you get Speed/5 full attacks, more or less. Check out Epic Destinies - they're a bunch of pretty flavourful options.

[Falontani]

Cannons or other versions:
Light Bombard and Great Bombard from Stormwrack. Takes six rounds and ten rounds in order to fire one of these and they deal... 3d10 and 6d10 damage. In epic levels its not worth using these weapons without some sort of autofiring mechanism.

Shape Breath allows your breath weapon to be changed into a line... But seeing as your breath weapon only does 4d6 damage... Ok... Magic. Orb spells and ball spells... Nope. Unless you can disgorge a sphere of annihilation... Wait!

Requiring Fourth level Divine Spells, and two feats we have the Entropomancer. Twice per day you may summon forth a shard of entropy that does a measly 7d6 damage (well it was worth a shot) oh and you get this: Control Sphere (Su): The Entropomancer has the ability to control a sphere of annihilation (described on page 279 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) as if he were using a talisman of the sphere, and the Entropomancer is personally unaffected by a sphere of annihilation, which passes through him as if his square was completely empty. High-level Entropomancers are often obsessed with acquiring spheres of annihilation.

Oh. Now we're getting somewhere. You may control a sphere at up to a range of 40 ft +10 ft per level. Level forty minus 3 la means 410 ft control range. Your check to move it is dc 30. This moves it ten ft. For every 5 you best the check it moves another 5 ft. With an int mod of 0 at level 40 your character will have a check of: 74 + (d20x2). Meaning you would move it a minimum of 45 ft, as a move action. And it instantly destroys matter that it touches. It stays in place if not acted upon. So you swallow the 2ft diameter orb. Your immune to its effects. Move action to launch it a minimum of 45 ft (up to 90 ft) at whatever you choose to utterly destroy.

This class is 3/4th bab, 2 good saves, and 1/2 casting. How do we enter...

6 rhd + 3 la. Take 4 rhd to push you to huge. 2 totemist, 2 divine crusader (law domain) and a feat that grants you 1 essentia, then take 2 sapphire hierarch, at this point you are level 19 with 13 bab, fourth level divine spells, and no clear focus on your build. A terrible way to start a character! Now you take ten levels of Entropomancer. Level 29 and you have 9th level spells, and can control spheres of annihilation! 11 levels left, 8 of them into sapphire hierarch which boosts your divine casting and your soulmelder level. 3 levels left and you take divine Oracle 2 and contemplative 1.

Another idea would be ur priest into contemplative for law domain for more powerful and versatile spellcasting.

[jaekaido]

well it looks like i have two characters to choose from as i might get to play both but i think i am going to make them both just to see everything they can do.

thanks everyone. if any more ideas come up please let me know please as i am always looking for ways to make these two particular characters for every game system i play.

[Hellpyre]

So... given that you're going epic which is like broken anyway, see if you can get to use the Dimensional Agility feat line from Pathfinder

Actually, Dimensional Dervish is probably exactly what OP wants for teleporting swordsman. Good catch.

[magic9mushroom]

okay well her is what i am looking at right now.

totemist2/duskblade20/jaunter4/blade of orien10/x4
Where is your epic feat progression?

So... given that you're going epic which is like broken anyway
Eh, it's more powerful and the caster/noncaster gulf gets even wider (lol, Multispell), but the only thing which is flat-out broken is out-of-the-box epic spellcasting (due to mitigation to 0 making the spell free to research). If you make research costs calculate before mitigation epic is mostly playable, at least to the extent ordinary high-level 3rd-ed D&D is playable.

EDIT: Of course, monster CRs in the ELH are about as reliable as those from the MMII. There's at least one CR 50 monster that can be beaten at level 10, because the game designers apparently hadn't yet got it through their skulls that non-flying non-casting melee beatsticks are not relevant well before epic.

[Asmotherion]

is it possible to teleport as a move action cos if so i can use that with spring attack

Dimension Jumper (the greater version is a swift action)
Dimension Door (Greater)

[Biggus]

Where is your epic feat progression?


I think you overestimate the importance of epic feats. There are only a relatively small number of epic feats which give abilities more powerful than anything pre-epic, and most of those are caster-only. If you're getting some good prestige class abilities instead, you're not necessarily losing power by giving up your epic feat progression.


Dimension Jumper (the greater version is a swift action)
Dimension Door (Greater)

I was going to suggest Greater Dimension Door, but Greater Dimension Jumper is a better idea. An at-will item of GDJ would cost 306,000GP, but that's peanuts to a level 40 PC. In fact, probably buy two and leave one at home in case of Disjunction...

@OP:

You may want to have a look at these lists of epic material not in the ELH for more options:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?599538-3-5-Epic-Feats-Outside-the-ELH-SRD

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600152-3-5-Looking-for-Epic-PrCs

[jaekaido]

so to follow up with a new idea.

duskblade (PRO) abunch of stuff like arcane channeling and armor, not to mention could hit die. (CON) very limited spell list and only 5th level spells. take this for 20 levels.

battle sorcerer (PRO) gets cleric bab and proficiency with 1 martial weapon. (CON) loses one spell per day for each level. i am okay with this. take this for 20 levels.

four of my feats are taken up by the dimension agility, assault, dervish, and savant from pathfinder. however, i can still get some of the epic level feats as i can't qualify for fighter feats any way. get a ton of low level spells (though i doubt i will use them unless i somehow get a bunch of metamagic feats from somewhere.

how does this sound?

[Biggus]

so to follow up with a new idea.

duskblade (PRO) abunch of stuff like arcane channeling and armor, not to mention could hit die. (CON) very limited spell list and only 5th level spells. take this for 20 levels.

battle sorcerer (PRO) gets cleric bab and proficiency with 1 martial weapon. (CON) loses one spell per day for each level. i am okay with this. take this for 20 levels.

four of my feats are taken up by the dimension agility, assault, dervish, and savant from pathfinder. however, i can still get some of the epic level feats as i can't qualify for fighter feats any way. get a ton of low level spells (though i doubt i will use them unless i somehow get a bunch of metamagic feats from somewhere.

how does this sound?

It'd probably be better to go something like Fighter 1 Sorcerer 6 Spellsword 5 Abjurant Champion 5 Eldritch Knight 23. Spellsword 5 gets you the ability to channel spells through your melee weapon like Duskblade, and a -20% spell failure chance, which in conjunction with mithral and the twilight armour property (MiC p.15) means you can wear full plate with zero spell failure. Your caster level is 36 or 40 with the Practised Spellcaster feat, rather than 20 or 24, and as you're taking normal Sorcerer instead of Battle Sorcerer you don't lose the spell per level. You also get bonus epic feats from the epic EK levels and the Abjurant Champion's special abilities. Oh, and you're less MAD as you don't need both Intelligence and Charisma for spellcasting.

The main downside of course is that you lose out on the Duskblade's large number of level 1-5 spells per day, but by level 40 those aren't going to have a huge effect on your power level, and you'll have tons of spells from your Sorcerer levels and your presumably enormous Charisma, and enough money to buy tons of wands and scrolls of spells you don't know yourself. You'd also lose about 25-30 hit points, but if that bothers you, you could use one of your Eldritch Knight bonus feats to take Epic Toughness.

About BAB: under the standard epic rules, only your first 20 levels count, then from level 21 you get an epic attack bonus of 1/2 levels regardless of what classes you take, so if you were taking 20 Duskblade levels and you took those first, it wouldn't make any difference what BAB your Sorcerer levels have, which removes one of the main reasons to take Battle Sorcerer rather than standard Sorcerer. Using the build I suggested, you'd get a BAB of 17 using the standard rules, or 20 if your DM lets you use your best 20 levels instead of your first 20 (as some do).

[magic9mushroom]

I think you overestimate the importance of epic feats. There are only a relatively small number of epic feats which give abilities more powerful than anything pre-epic, and most of those are caster-only. If you're getting some good prestige class abilities instead, you're not necessarily losing power by giving up your epic feat progression.

Well, on the one hand, yes, most of the good ones are caster-only.

On the other hand, if you're a noncaster at epic, that itself isn't especially-good optimisation. :V And if you are a caster, you will want a lot of them (Improved Metamagic is probably worth taking twice, and Improved Spell Capacity and Multispell significantly more than that).

There are a few excellent noncaster epic feats, though. Additional Magic Item Space, Exceptional Deflection/Reflect Arrows/Infinite Deflection (that combo is really good, and is the main reason orbs and rays aren't great at epic) and even Distant Shot can be interesting with the proper spotting equipment. And while Epic Leadership is basically "Leadership, but epic", it's still good.

[Asmotherion]

I think you overestimate the importance of epic feats. There are only a relatively small number of epic feats which give abilities more powerful than anything pre-epic, and most of those are caster-only. If you're getting some good prestige class abilities instead, you're not necessarily losing power by giving up your epic feat progression.



I was going to suggest Greater Dimension Door, but Greater Dimension Jumper is a better idea. An at-will item of GDJ would cost 306,000GP, but that's peanuts to a level 40 PC. In fact, probably buy two and leave one at home in case of Disjunction...

@OP:

You may want to have a look at these lists of epic material not in the ELH for more options:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?599538-3-5-Epic-Feats-Outside-the-ELH-SRD

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600152-3-5-Looking-for-Epic-PrCs

Eh, no need. Just put DJ on your daily routine of spells to persist

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Playing a bona fide monster (especially with large numbers of LA and HD) tends to suck, and at high levels is FAR easier to do as a low-LA and -HD character race with shapechanging and magic.

For instance, a [kobold/human/halfling/warforged/dwarf/whatever] divine minion (https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/lore/magicbooks13.shtml) shapeshifting druid 1/whatever X is vastly superior in nearly all ways to an equal level lycanthrope, worg, winter wolf, or anthropomorphic critter (anthro bat aside).

As far as breath weapon stuff goes, if you go totemist 2/psion/soul manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) you can manifest psionic [energy] powers that you describe as blasting from your maw. You're a shapeshifted dire wolf with a "breath weapon" that can be a ray, a line, a cone, a burst, a wall, or a spread. And it can be any of the common energy types. Fun!

Use the psionic powers from Magic of Incarnum to create chakra binds instead of having to worry about getting such through class abilities (shoulders-bound phase cloak is a favorite of mine).

As far as optimization goes, if you want to be a heavy-duty caster type (caster, gish, skillmonkey, or all of the above), there are ways to optimize psionics so you get around a lot of the limitations imposed by epic levels. For instance, nab yourself the ardent's Magic mantle (Complete Psionic) so magic and psionics are counted as identical (regardless of the conditions of the campaign), then take the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat to make your manifesting count as [Su]. This means you ignore SR and PR (and therefore magic immunity), never fizzle your manifestations from having your concentration disrupted, do not take AoOs in melee, and (possibly most importantly) your base ML always equals your HD (unless it would be higher). So once you get to 9ths, start dipping manifesting classes so your base ML in all of them is equal to your HD (which at level 40 should be somewhere around 40). Normally, a level 40 psion would have severely curtailed power points, since pp calculations for a class are cut off at level 20, with the rest being provided by bonus pp. Since all of your class dips are maxed out on ML, your bonus pp should skyrocket pretty quick. Also, get a Convert Spell to Power erudite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) as a loyal minion, with access to psychic chirurgery. S/He has spent all of his/her resources on learning new psionic powers and spells-as-powers, and s/he's used psychic chirurgery to gift knowledge of all of them to you. Now you not only have tons of power points, but you have tons of powers (and spells) to use them on. Use your minion as a secondary character, a mount, or an out-of-battle resource, at your option.

Feel free to take your first level dip into factotum with Able Learner so all skills are effectively class skills. Your Int-based skill points will be huge, so why not?

Have fun with that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and make sure you've got lots of miss chances of various types (displacement, invisibility, dimensional shunting, and mirror image clones), as well as lots of immunities to common status effects. The fewer things that can hurt you, the safer you'll be and the less likely you are to be in serious danger of being obviated. Power point recharging and lots of d20 rerolls are also must-haves.

A few nesting thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes) would be very useful for learning powers from your minion, too.

If you're in a high-op game, find a way to stack all of your MLs together. A level in the psionic version of spellthief, the psi (https://hyperion-voyages.obsidianportal.com/wikis/psithief)thief, and the Master SpellPsithief feat would stack all of your MLs together rather nicely. Have 10 dips in different manifesting classes? Enjoy having a ML of 400. If you're not in a high-powered, high-op game, don't do this. Not unless you have just a couple of manifesting classes, anyway. Level 40 is seriously high, after all. A big boost in your MLs isn't that big of a deal by then, especially if you're relying mostly on lower level powers.

[jaekaido]

well i have build idea at this point due to DM of the game and he is helping me optimize it for the game but i will keep this page bookmarked for another game which i will be in here soon but thank you everyone for the help

[Falontani]

well i have build idea at this point due to DM of the game and he is helping me optimize it for the game but i will keep this page bookmarked for another game which i will be in here soon but thank you everyone for the help

What are you ending up going with?

[jaekaido]

well i came up with the idea to use the generic classes to choose my class features based on the generic class rules in UA. he liked the idea so right now i have a warrior/caster/abjurant champion/spellsword/eldritch knight as far as levels for each i am trying to figure that out. i am also using a marrutact for the race from sandstorm with a 50 point buy. and equipment is not going to be a problem as i have 40 million to spend on pretty much anything i want.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)

[Tryxx]

I like the concept of a Winter Wolf [RHD 6 + LA 3] Dragonfire Adept [20] / Totemist [11].

I imagine a Winter Wolf with distant White Dragon heritage going the DFA route to improve their own breath weapon ability, using the Humanoid Shape invocation to interact with society, and a re-fluffed version of the Greater Draconic Flight invocation to streak across the sky to ambush enemies with Chilling Fog while breathing down death. Seems fun to me.

I doubt this build would have the spellcasting that you want, however.

I don't know much of anything about the Totemist or if it could be used to keep the Wolf's bite attack relevant at epic levels with the right number of feats. Neat thing about the DFA is that it's breath weapon does not require an attack roll - but you'd have to work on making the damage relevant at epic levels too.

Maybe the forum could help with figuring that out.

Cool concept though.

[Demidos]

Playing a bona fide monster (especially with large numbers of LA and HD) tends to suck, and at high levels is FAR easier to do as a low-LA and -HD character race with shapechanging and magic.

For instance, a [kobold/human/halfling/warforged/dwarf/whatever] divine minion (https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/lore/magicbooks13.shtml) shapeshifting druid 1/whatever X is vastly superior in nearly all ways to an equal level lycanthrope, worg, winter wolf, or anthropomorphic critter (anthro bat aside).


I'm not quite sure I entirely agree on this one point -- Yes, Divine minion is fantastic and often better than anything you could take as a normal monster.

However, certain monsters or templates can often give you abilities that are extremely difficult to obtain in any other way, e.g. if you can find a way to get a magic immune character (via Half-Golem or something similar that has LA instead of CR), or Ghost to resurrect yourself automatically every time you die. Monsters also tend to have good static defenses which can free up a lot of your resources, as in the previous two examples.

In a case like level 40 where damage becomes less relevant than immunities (because damage is already enough to kill anything from a much lower level), these immunities can be far more important than a few more pluses to your stats. I agree with your general line of thinking, but I think its important to keep clear there is a substantial number of choices that can give pretty clear benefits, they just have to be carefully selected.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not quite sure I entirely agree on this one point -- Yes, Divine minion is fantastic and often better than anything you could take as a normal monster.

However, certain monsters or templates can often give you abilities that are extremely difficult to obtain in any other way, e.g. if you can find a way to get a magic immune character (via Half-Golem or something similar that has LA instead of CR), or Ghost to resurrect yourself automatically every time you die. Monsters also tend to have good static defenses which can free up a lot of your resources, as in the previous two examples.

In a case like level 40 where damage becomes less relevant than immunities (because damage is already enough to kill anything from a much lower level), these immunities can be far more important than a few more pluses to your stats. I agree with your general line of thinking, but I think its important to keep clear there is a substantial number of choices that can give pretty clear benefits, they just have to be carefully selected.Your point is taken, and yet there are frequently much easier and better ways to do these things, especially at level 40. I mean, ghost resurrection is easily replaced by astral projection (gotten quite early via planar binding). Or you could take individual levels of the ghost savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and buy off the LA as early as possible (since you only ever have 1 LA at a time).

Magic immunity is gettable via shapeshifting into a will-o-wisp when needed, or by fudging your way into illithid savant for 3 levels, if you really want to.

Mind-swapping with various critters and shapeshifting into them are fairly easy at mid-to-high levels (especially level 40), and since they're (ostensibly) temporary effects, you shouldn't incur any LA penalties. Remember how Emperor_Tippy likes to insert himself into the body of a custom shadesteel golem, as an example.

If you want defenses, go for the really low LA (and 0 HD) races and templates. Necropolitan, for instance, has a lot of good immunities (and with Human Heritage, you can thumb your nose at the undead weaknesses), and warforged also has a lot of good ones. Immunities are also easily gotten via (usually) fairly cheap items and spells, as well. Spending your efforts on the crafting table would definitely be worthwhile at this level, although I definitely do agree that getting as many immunities as you can reasonably achieve is a definite plus.

The point is, as you said, resource management, and feats and levels are insanely valuable resources. It's almost always better to take class levels instead of LA, especially if the LA can't be bought off, and RHD are always a bad idea unless they're outsider or dragon HD, or you can futz around with permanent negative levels.

[Biggus]

well i came up with the idea to use the generic classes to choose my class features based on the generic class rules in UA. he liked the idea so right now i have a warrior/caster/abjurant champion/spellsword/eldritch knight as far as levels for each i am trying to figure that out. i am also using a marrutact for the race from sandstorm with a 50 point buy. and equipment is not going to be a problem as i have 40 million to spend on pretty much anything i want.

40 million? Holy mother, he's giving you TRIPLE wealth?

In that case, you may wish to have a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602836-Looking-for-the-best-belt-for-a-high-level-wizard) for inspiration (despite the thread title, it's not just about belts, the discussion wandered off on to all types of items for epic mages).

[jaekaido]

so i brought up both concepts as alternates cos the dm thinks that for his campign the one we were working on may be too much for me with the whole epic spells thing. so the problem i have now is that i want to be a gish with 9th level arcane spells but can still use the teleporting stuff. so far what i have worked out in my brain based on everyone's comments is this:

since spell points are being used i would go 10 fighter, 10 wizard, 10 abjurant champion

but i don't what i should after that. any ideas for this build?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

so i brought up both concepts as alternates cos the dm thinks that for his campign the one we were working on may be too much for me with the whole epic spells thing. so the problem i have now is that i want to be a gish with 9th level arcane spells but can still use the teleporting stuff. so far what i have worked out in my brain based on everyone's comments is this:

since spell points are being used i would go 10 fighter, 10 wizard, 10 abjurant champion

but i don't what i should after that. any ideas for this build?Make sure you use the dungeon crasher ACF in Dungeonscape, as well as all the other ACFs you can get which give you more martial options. You can get lots of feats by buying them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts), and you should have access to the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?119456-What-is-a-quot-Chaos-Shuffle-quot) so you can get as many feats as you reasonably want. Since that is the case, get the minimum number of fighter levels for the ACFs you want (dungeon crasher, thug (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug), and Zhentarim fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274243-Zhentarim-Fighter) are some of the better ones). Beyond that, you're wasting your levels when you could be getting actual class features, like from some PrCs.

How about some psychic warrior? Its non-blasting powers are quite potent, and the soulbound weapon ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is pretty extraordinary. It can take psionic feats as well as fighter feats (except those with levels in fighter as a prereq, so basically the absolutely awful Weapon Specialization and the few lackluster feats that have WS as a prereq).

For the last 10 levels, I'd suggest either another PrC or levels in several base classes that scale well even with multiclassing. Incarnum classes and Tome of Battle classes are great for this, especially if you have spellcasting for binding the soulmelds of your choice. A level in whirling frenzy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) spirit lion totem (Complete Champion) barbarian works really well for any melee build. You get pounce and an extra attack.

[Biggus]

so i brought up both concepts as alternates cos the dm thinks that for his campign the one we were working on may be too much for me with the whole epic spells thing. so the problem i have now is that i want to be a gish with 9th level arcane spells but can still use the teleporting stuff. so far what i have worked out in my brain based on everyone's comments is this:

since spell points are being used i would go 10 fighter, 10 wizard, 10 abjurant champion

but i don't what i should after that. any ideas for this build?

Abjurant Champion is normally only a 5-level class, are you using a homebrewed version?

[jaekaido]

some how i am mixing classes together so here is what i am thinking at this point:

fighter 10 for feats and BAB.
wizard or sorcerer for 5th spells.
what ways can i get 10 more levels in my casting class before reaching level 30 as i need some room to take the epic level spell casting stuff.

[GrayDeath]

When in doubt there is always Legacy Champion.

Also I second the suggestion to finish off with an Initiator Class. If not going for epic Spellcasting, mixing Spells and Maneuvers can make you a tremendously good Gish.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

some how i am mixing classes together so here is what i am thinking at this point:

fighter 10 for feats and BAB.Feats are easy to buy, as I mentioned, and BAB is gotten rather easily via an item or casting of a 4th level spell: divine power. As I also mentioned, taking fighter simply isn't worth bothering with if you're allowed to optimize in any way, unless you're going for some ACFs.


wizard or sorcerer for 5th spells.
what ways can i get 10 more levels in my casting class before reaching level 30 as i need some room to take the epic level spell casting stuff.You've got plenty of money, so why not use that to help you? Preferably in the form of DCFS'd feats, a minion, and some thought bottles:

Take a couple of levels in ardent, a level in psionic spellthief, and the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) and psi adaptation of Master Spellthief feats, to boost your Manifester Levels to equal your HD, and to stack your MLs together. The ardent bases its level of powers known on its ML, which is now your HD x 2. Get a loyal convert-spell-to-power erudite as a minion. Now he can convert arcane spells to psionic powers. Note it's entirely possible to convert any divine spell to an arcane spell through various means, including via dragons (who cast cleric spells as arcane spells) and dragons with the Child of Eberron archetype (who cast druid spells as arcane spells). Now your minion has access to psionic powers, arcane spells as psionic powers, and cleric and druid spells as arcane spells as psionic powers. Have your minion use some thought bottles to fuel the XP costs for lots of manifestations of psychic chirurgery to teach you all of your minion's powers (and spells-as-powers) known. Now you have access to practically any power or spell you want of any level up to your HD (so if you're level 40, you have access to level 40 powers and spells). Including divine power. If you want full BAB, just spend 7 power points to manifest divine power and suddenly you'll have full BAB at your disposal.

And that's, what, 3 levels and 2 feats accounted for to get everything you just asked for? Start taking a few more levels in manifesting classes to seriously boost your Manifester Levels and the number of power points you have available. The rest of your levels can be used for whatever you like, which should include levels in all three ToB classes as well as at least 1 level in factotum + Able Learner for all skills as class skills (preferably at least 3 to add +Int to all Dex and Str skills), and 2 levels in totemist for soulmelds. At least 2 levels of fighter for dungeon crasher (plus Knockback and Shock Trooper to knock enemies around with your attacks), a couple of levels each in (unarmed) swordsage, crusader, and warblade (for maneuvers, +Wis to AC while in light armor, and several free feats). Some psychic warrior for bonus power points and the soulbound weapon ACF (which progresses with ardent if you have added call weaponry to your ardent power list). A level of thrallherd to bring erudite minions in to teach you their powers and spells. Some magical racial finagling to work your way to illithid savant, and some legacy champion to boost illithid savant after level 10 to get extra illithid savant progression pre-epic. The sky's the limit, really. So long as the sky = level 40, anyway.

[Edit] Go read the Light (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight), Medium (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyMedium), and Heavy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyHeavy) Armor Proficiency feats. Note all the classes that grant you them as bonus feats in addition to normal proficiency. Feel free to use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap out all of those bonus feats any time you add another class to your progression. All the bonus feats you can eat!

[DarkSoul]

Here's a simple build: Marrutact Fighter 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Fighter 2-4, Eldritch Knight 21.

You end up with +29 BAB (+20 pre-epic, +9 from EAB) and 30th level Wizard casting at Character level 37.

50 pt buy base stats: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Racial modifiers: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +8 Wis, +6 Cha.
Ability points from levels, in this order: 4x Int, 1 Dex, 4x Int.

Final Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 21, Con 18, Int 34, Wis 18, Cha 14.

Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Dervish, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Savant, Epic Prowess. You have 4 epic feats to choose and 2 epic Eldritch Knight bonus feats. If you can buy off even 1 point of LA and trade it for another EK level, you get another epic bonus feat.



You can take Combat Insight (Complete Warrior) to add your Intelligence modifier instead of Strength to your melee attacks.
You could take Somatic Weaponry and as much TWF as you have feats for (up to Perfect TWF) and cast spells while dual-wielding.
You could take Heighten Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, and Improved Spell Capacity x4 to get 13th-level spell slots (and spells) to burn for Arcane Boost from Abjurant Champion which are good for one of: +13 to hit, +26 damage, +13 AC, +13 to saves, or 65 resistance to fire, acid, cold, electricity and sonic. With a +16 Int headband, or a +5 book and a +12 headband you end up with 4 13th-level slots per day.
You could go for Armed, Exceptional, and Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows, and bounce ranged attacks back at their casters all day long. Arrows, axes, rays... basically unhittable by ranged attack rolls.


Of those options, I'd go for Combat Insight and 12th-level spells. 13th-level if you buy off a LA. Using a greatsword and 50 Int you'd be at +30 damage from intelligence, +4 from feats, and the only pieces of equipment purchased so far are an Int book and headband. You've still got all the normal wizard goodness to work with too. Trade out a couple feats for Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and you can run stacks of 24 hour buffs like Wraithstrike.