A system for building magic systems.

[Shinizak]

Are there any systems where you can build spells? I love D&D (ad&d, 3.5, pathfinder, 5th, etc) but it's spell selection is kind of all over the place in terms of effect strength, damage, etc. Worse, it has no method for a player to make new spells if they want to.

So I wanted to know if there was any system where I could "reverse engineer" spells from D&D, but also other systems like unknown armies, vampire the masquerade, and more?

[JoeJ]

Are there any systems where you can build spells? I love D&D (ad&d, 3.5, pathfinder, 5th, etc) but it's spell selection is kind of all over the place in terms of effect strength, damage, etc. Worse, it has no method for a player to make new spells if they want to.

So I wanted to know if there was any system where I could "reverse engineer" spells from D&D, but also other systems like unknown armies, vampire the masquerade, and more?

Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds both have you build superpowers that can easily be spells. In GURPS you can build spells as Advantages instead of using the default magic system.

[Satinavian]

Sure

Mage (how well that works is debatable)
Ars Magica (A classic but quite fun)
TDE Myranor (Not in English)

come to my mind first because they are quite detailed.

[Milo v3]

Mage the Awakening 2e has you create your own spells more often than you use the default spells, using it's creative thaumaturgy guidelines and combining practices with arcanum purviews.

Mage the Ascension technically allows you to make your own spells, but it's system is a complete mess.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not only is Mutants and Masterminds 3e's effect-based power creation system really good at stuff like that, I've already done it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF).

[Shinizak]

Not only is Mutants and Masterminds 3e's effect-based power creation system really good at stuff like that, I've already done it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF).

Oh, oh my goodness. that's beautiful.

Though, I'm seeing that most of the powers are lower level than advertised.

[Man_Over_Game]

Oh, oh my goodness. that's beautiful.

Though, I'm seeing that most of the powers are lower level than advertised.

Most of the absurdity that comes from Mutants and Masterminds generally stems from shifting a power level higher or lower due to some circumstance, and often involve using other powers that were not balanced for that level or use.

Most powers, at face value, appear very mundane. But then you start looking into Charging powers, or spawning more units, and then you get ideas...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, oh my goodness. that's beautiful.

Though, I'm seeing that most of the powers are lower level than advertised.
:smallredface:

What do you mean by "lower level?"

[Shinizak]

:smallredface:

What do you mean by "lower level?"

It seems like from my eyes (and keep in mind, I don't know the system well beyond the 20 minute look up I did) that a lot of the spells don't have all that large of a point cost compared to others. For instance, Teleport has 2 points per level while Protection from Evil is a full 20 points!

To my untrained eyes it seams that Teleport is surprisingly low, while Protection from Evil is surprisingly high. There are other examples, but that one stands out the most.

I guess I'm saying, when actually calculated out, a lot of spells seem wildly misplaced on the 1 to 9 spell slot list.

[Milo v3]

It seems like from my eyes (and keep in mind, I don't know the system well beyond the 20 minute look up I did) that a lot of the spells don't have all that large of a point cost compared to others. For instance, Teleport has 2 points per level while Protection from Evil is a full 20 points!

To my untrained eyes it seams that Teleport is surprisingly low, while Protection from Evil is surprisingly high. There are other examples, but that one stands out the most.

I guess I'm saying, when actually calculated out, a lot of spells seem wildly misplaced on the 1 to 9 spell slot list.
Different rpgs assume different worths for things. M&M for example values things like utility movement very cheaply, as it "generally" has low impact on power in combat, and are seen more as facilitators of stories, while flat protection from a whole range of common enemies and power sources is going to be highly valued because of it's considerably high worth.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In addition, M&M has a relatively flat power scale, compared to D&D. A PL 10 character will be stronger than a PL 5, certainly, but not to the same extent that a level 10 character will be compared to a level 5-- and that goes double for casters. Both can teleport if they want to, both can call thunderstorms, both can nuke large areas with fire... The PL 10 will be better at it, will do more damage and can afford greater ranges, but the basic capabilities remain unchanged.

(Also, for your specific example, that formulation of Protection From Evil will work on everyone in the party indefinitely, while you need 9 ranks of Teleport to hit the basic 500 mile range)

[jjordan]

I guess I'm saying, when actually calculated out, a lot of spells seem wildly misplaced on the 1 to 9 spell slot list.

I've been... rambling, I guess, about this over on a homebrew thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602188-Brainstorming-an-idea-More-Less-Powerful-spells). I was looking specifically at making a build-your-own-spell variant for D&D5E. When I put everything together I found that the spells in 5E were obviously *not* built using any sort of system. The balance comes from other mechanisms.

[Shinizak]

Different rpgs assume different worths for things. M&M for example values things like utility movement very cheaply, as it "generally" has low impact on power in combat, and are seen more as facilitators of stories, while flat protection from a whole range of common enemies and power sources is going to be highly valued because of it's considerably high worth.

Huh, well, then how would you calculate an ability's worth?

[LibraryOgre]

Are there any systems where you can build spells? I love D&D (ad&d, 3.5, pathfinder, 5th, etc) but it's spell selection is kind of all over the place in terms of effect strength, damage, etc. Worse, it has no method for a player to make new spells if they want to.

So I wanted to know if there was any system where I could "reverse engineer" spells from D&D, but also other systems like unknown armies, vampire the masquerade, and more?

Older editions of Shadowrun definitely had this; newer ones may, but the modifiers work pretty well.

Dragonlance SAGA also had such a system, where you built your spells each time you used them. It's a pretty robust system, once you account for its core mechanics being terrible.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Huh, well, then how would you calculate an ability's worth?
Some of it depends on the specific quirks of the system's mechanics (ranged attacks in M&M don't really require much if any extra investment, there are lots of movement abilities, positioning doesn't really matter, so flight isn't a game changer), others on the setting (in a modern world, "teleport across the world" is just saving you a day and a few hundred bucks), and others on the genre (guns don't worry most superheroes, being able to ignore them should be cheap.)

Basically, you set costs based on setting and tropes, then adjust for mechanical bits.

[Man_Over_Game]

Huh, well, then how would you calculate an ability's worth?

"If this was used 100x, how much do you break the game?"

For the sake of Teleport, it doesn't really matter how much you use it. You could send a message, or maybe flank someone, but its worth is really only ever tied into the effectiveness of your Flanking power or the message you're sending. It, itself, does not generate impact, but instead increases the chances that provides impact to occur. It doesn't even multiply impact, as it doesn't give you additional uses of a particular aspect or power. Teleporting 100x generally does not increase the number of times you get to Attack, or Deny an Attack.

On the other hand, gaining Protection from Good or Evil 100x may mean that you're invulnerable to nearly everything, nearly indefinitely. Depending on your ruleset, assuming each use of that power removes another potential weakness, you actually become more invulnerable per each weakness removed.

In a way, most powers/actions in games come down to 3 different formats:


Product (Attack, Damage, Healing, Denial of an opponent's action/damage)
Enablers (Mobility, Conjure Weapon)
Multipliers (Haste, Time Stop, Lifesteal, Magic Weapon)




Products are your end-result. It's the action that's providing you value towards your goal. This could be in the form of damage, damage mitigation, healing, stopping an opponent, etc.
Enablers are low-value, and generally are powers that allow you to use a Product, but do not increase the potency of that Product. For example, getting within range of a weapon can be done with mobility, or increasing the range of your weapon, or even bringing the enemy to you, but none of those things improve the effectiveness of your weapon beyond allowing it to activate. Enablers could also be a Multiplier, depending on the rarity of the triggered Product (maybe melee weapons are 1-shot kills, but are really hard to use in a shoot-out game without several Enablers to make it happen), or depending on the combat system (moving an enemy near you may cause them to be at risk of Flanking or Opportunity Attacks).
Multipliers are generally high-value and are powers that increase the output of a Product. This could be to allow you to use a Product more than the normal limit, or allowing you to use that Product past its normal level.


The formula would effectively be: (Product * (1 - (Risk of Product Failure / (1+ Enabler)))) * (1 + Multiplier).

Or, basically, Enablers subtract risk (down to 0% risk), but Multipliers effect the final total.


Many systems just make Enablers cheap and worthless to avoid a scenario where a ludicrously stacked Enabler value can cause something in the system to break. For example, there are no Products that gain values off of Movement in 5e DnD, because although the average amount of movement in a turn is only about 30ft, it's possible to stack it to over 5000ft. Or, in Mutants and Masterminds' case, teleporting 100x with an ability that states "Every time you quickly move in a position adjacent to a creature, do X damage".

Good systems have a bit of a blend of each. For example, using a scaling Flanking system that allows you to gain multiple Flanking bonuses to your Product when you have a high Enabling power (like a Teleport) is a great way of providing value to the otherwise-ignored Enablers in games.

[Jay R]

Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds both have you build superpowers that can easily be spells. In GURPS you can build spells as Advantages instead of using the default magic system.

Fantasy Hero (Hero System) has specific tools for building a magic system.

I designed a magic system for a bard, whose goal was to inspire troops (or the party), by singing the night before the battle or adventure. All his spells had the following characteristics:

Area effect (affects anybody in range of his voice)
Increased duration (lasts 24 hours)
Concentration (he can't be interrupted while singing)
Extra Time (5 minutes to sing the song)
Focus (requires a musical instrument)
Gestures (his hands are busy playing)
Incantation (he must sing)
Requires a skill roll (he must sing well)
Recipient must be able to hear

It also specifically disallowed shape-changing powers, energy beams, direct attacks, or other abilities that don't fit the "inspiration" theme.

The system made it easy to design a magic system just for that kind of bardic spell.

[Segev]

Most of the absurdity that comes from Mutants and Masterminds generally stems from shifting a power level higher or lower due to some circumstance, and often involve using other powers that were not balanced for that level or use.

Most powers, at face value, appear very mundane. But then you start looking into Charging powers, or spawning more units, and then you get ideas...

With M&M 3e, I can build a character who has senses out to cover a city, with no obstacles blocking them, and who can create illusions that work with TK to provide solidity anywhere he can sense. For a LIMITATION to this, I can make it so that his omnisenses require an illusion there with illusory sensory organs that could perceive what he's to see before his brain processes it, essentially "limiting" him to seeing, hearing, and feeling, through his illusions. Rather than omnisensing everything.

[Milo v3]

Huh, well, then how would you calculate an ability's worth?

Each system decides for itself how it weighs different character capabilities.

[Knaight]

Each system decides for itself how it weighs different character capabilities.

And it takes genre into account there. That teleport spell is worth a lot less in a world of hypersonic jets, where standard genre powers include high speed flight. When the next best option is a sailing ship it's pretty great.