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Tanarii
2019-12-16, 10:28 PM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

MarkVIIIMarc
2019-12-16, 10:41 PM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

What bullet do do have to bite by bringing a character with the same level /xp? The bullit of guilt because you got a pc killed?

FWIW, to me it sounds like the DM liked your actions and really wants you to play?

False God
2019-12-16, 10:46 PM
E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.

Kaptin Keen
2019-12-17, 01:55 AM
E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.

This is actually great. Earn your levels the easy way. Detail all the embarassing moments, and the grief, all the walking up the 9.999 steps to the summit viewpoint (which is always entirely covered in cloud) carrying the yoke of yak's milk. And then start at a level that's relevant.

Or roleplay coming back from the dead .. in RPG's, death really is an abstraction - it's the end of the game for one set of numerical stats - now go roll another. But the game is narrative (among other things) and building a narrative around being too stubborn to die, tricking the boatman, winning back your soul from the devil, finding the way back through the dark forest, or simply being told by God what are you doing here? You're not supposed to die for years! Get back out there, you lazy git, you have work to do!

Eldan
2019-12-17, 05:26 AM
If making a powerful character "unearned" feels wrong to you, are there maybe any companions, friends, mercenaries, hirelings, etc. that your group brought along on adventures before that you might negotiate with the DM to take over?

Pelle
2019-12-17, 06:15 AM
B

or E) if the campaign structure allows for it, have the other players also make a new character and maintain a pool of characters to choose from (including the "main" party) depending on who shows up for sessions etc...

Lord Torath
2019-12-17, 09:48 AM
E: Create two characters, one for play and one for back-up, both at the level your DM specifies. Each time your main PC gains a level, give one to your back-up character. Then, if and when your main character dies, you have a back-up that has grown "organically" rearing and ready to go. Just make sure you follow your DM's rules for gaining magic and treasure for your back-up guy so he's got the same amount as if you created him all at once at the level your DM specifies. (If your DM says "a character created at level X gets this much gold, magic, and weird stuff", then when your back-up character hits level X, it should have that much gold, magic, and weird stuff).

Also, eat a banana.

Imbalance
2019-12-17, 10:01 AM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them.

Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part. Second, just because the player hasn't earned the experience doesn't mean the character is not experienced - don't sell your avatar short. Otherwise, your solution is to have solo sessions for this character to snuff up from newb to par, but bring a banana in case your DM is unwilling to bend to your proclivity.

Jay R
2019-12-17, 01:05 PM
Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

farothel
2019-12-17, 01:12 PM
Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part. Second, just because the player hasn't earned the experience doesn't mean the character is not experienced - don't sell your avatar short. Otherwise, your solution is to have solo sessions for this character to snuff up from newb to par, but bring a banana in case your DM is unwilling to bend to your proclivity.

I agree here. While the XP is earned by the character, I feel it's also earned by the player. It's you who spend all the time playing the character, so if he dies, you shouldn't dismiss all that time invested.

Another thing I do as a GM is let the new character start at the lowest level of the party. Since I often GM when not all players are present, I have experience levels that can vary. Since I GM games where it's not that much of a problem (things like alternity or Star Trek you can still be useful even if you have less XP than the rest of the party), so depeding on the situation you can either take the lowest XP or take an avereage and let the player start there.

I do force the player to make a basic character and only then use the XP to level up to whatever level is decided. No matter what the XP level, on that there is no discussion (of course, my players know in advance what I plan to do in these cases).

CombatBunny
2019-12-17, 01:26 PM
Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

I’m usually on the players side, because most of the responsibility falls in the GMs hands.

In this case though, it seems that the GM is being reasonable and maybe you are simply struggling to accept your character’s death or there is an expectations discrepancy.

As Jay R mentioned, either accept death as a possibility or find another group where the table has an agreement of no character death or…

ˇStart your own table with blackjack and exotic dancers!

I don't want to be harsh, but those strong beliefs sound more like a tantrum.

Reversefigure4
2019-12-17, 01:27 PM
I've never seen this behaviour in play - anyone else?

Even when a game starts at first level, your character is often above the average, having already in backstory done enough to earn that Fighter 1 level (unlike the NPC shopkeeper). So the problem is there right from the beginning, and that's before any game that starts characters above the minimum level. Many games assume a high level of competence from Game 1 (Spirit of the Century, a pulp game, flat out tells you that your starting character is already the best Pilot/Scientist/Fighter in the world and is well recognised for it).

jjordan
2019-12-17, 02:06 PM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

Maybe go the Traveller route and have a mini-session with the DM where you build the character by walking it through the leveling process, dealing with each level in a backstory sort of fashion? It's a compromise.

Maybe you propose some alternate way to participate.
Come back as a ghost. Your spirit can't rest until you help the party accomplish the task before them. Or you've left a task unfinished and need the party to help you accomplish it. A ghost character could be very interesting. Or a revenant.

Have your character brought back by a patron. You're now a warlock with an agenda and a very demanding patron.

Maybe your character is the patron. You've found a willing patsy and are sharing their body with them. You bring your skills and abilities and some HP to the mix. Your new combined character isn't quite as strong as the rest of the party but isn't a very low level character, you maintain some continuity, and you get to play two characters. "Right, I'll take care of the demon." "Are you crazy?" "We can do this." "We bloody well can't!" "Trust me." "I didn't sign up to get my face ripped off by some abyssal horror!" "We're not going to get our face ripped off. Probably. Almost certainly. Look, hero up and let's do this!"

Have your character inexplicably come back to life suffering from memory loss, occasional hallucinations, and nightmares. Is it really your character, or is it someone else occupying the body? Does someone have the best interests of the party at heart? There's a lot of story to be found in this.


Or bite the bullet and take the opportunity to bring in a character that more closely ties in to some of the campaign and backstory.

Drache64
2019-12-17, 02:24 PM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

is there an close level NPC you can take over? does that fit your requirement?

Imbalance
2019-12-17, 03:08 PM
Continued spitballing, but what if your new starter character becomes the escort mission? Would it be an acceptable means of gaining heaps of experience via osmosis and PC candor if your role is that of the young prince, or the docile mensch, or the aboriginal guide, or the oblivious key to some prophecy, at least for a time? That way, the party's foremost task is your protection along a perilous journey, at the end of which they receive a great reward along with your level equalization and pledge of aid in future endeavors. Your truncated learning curve can easily be attributed to the time spent in the company of masters, even though your participation in combat encounters will be minimally supportive at best and a liability at worst. Maybe the path ends in a test of your mettle that awards you a mantling of sorts - "only the pure of heart may receive these gifts" or whatever.

Point is there should be a way to get back up to speed that won't tarnish your sense of accomplishment or railroad the campaign. After all, the party could just as easily fail or decide to sell you to the Drow, but then they'd be short an ally, which is definitely what they'll be if you give up.

Jorren
2019-12-17, 03:20 PM
Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

Yeah, pretty much my answer as well.

The notion that you should start a replacement character at a lower level was always an odd one to me. Even if you accept the notion (somewhat dubious in my opinion, given that rpgs are not typically a competitive endeavor) that you should 'earn' your levels, I believe that you could argue that you already did so with the deceased character.

Reversefigure4
2019-12-17, 04:40 PM
The notion that you should start a replacement character at a lower level was always an odd one to me.

Depending on the circumstances, it can get hard to introduce a new high-level character in a way that makes sense for the story and verisimilitude.

"Yes, the city always had this 13th level Paladin in it, he just hasn't helped with the demon crisis you've spent the last 5 levels dealing with, for... some... reason"

A 16th level character appears near the party while they are on a private demi-plane they've had to track down a magic artefact to get into. How... surprisingly fortunate, and terribly unlikely?

It can also be hard to integrate a character into the existing party dynamics. "We band of brothers have united together since that fire at the Inn, forged together after we slew the Iron Goblin. And then there's this wizard that we picked up on the side of the road yesterday. He looked trustworthy."

Most of these are pretty easily dealt with - it's a matter of the GM and the player working together on a backstory that makes sense ("Retroactively, the Paladin was on the other side of the city at the time, warding off the demon lord attack"). But it can strain credulity that the party have slogged through challenges to reach their high-level, while Wizard Lucky just sort of turns up with them.

I don't think it remotely justifies the increased difficulty of making players play a low-level character who needs to earn their levels back (particularly because this leads to death spiraling, annoyed players, and still strains verisimilitude and requires a storyline reason - why are the party teaming up with somebody who can't keep up), but there is a line of logic behind where it comes from.

Delta
2019-12-17, 07:34 PM
I find it hard to answer the question because it's kind of weirdly phrased.

"Let's assume you're someone who really hates A? What would you do if you had to do A, B or C?" Is just... nothing anyone can give a reasonable answer to.

Personally? I'd just play on with a similar levelled character because I wouldn't mind that at all.

Jorren
2019-12-17, 09:12 PM
Depending on the circumstances, it can get hard to introduce a new high-level character in a way that makes sense for the story and verisimilitude.

"Yes, the city always had this 13th level Paladin in it, he just hasn't helped with the demon crisis you've spent the last 5 levels dealing with, for... some... reason"

A 16th level character appears near the party while they are on a private demi-plane they've had to track down a magic artefact to get into. How... surprisingly fortunate, and terribly unlikely?

It can also be hard to integrate a character into the existing party dynamics. "We band of brothers have united together since that fire at the Inn, forged together after we slew the Iron Goblin. And then there's this wizard that we picked up on the side of the road yesterday. He looked trustworthy."

Most of these are pretty easily dealt with - it's a matter of the GM and the player working together on a backstory that makes sense ("Retroactively, the Paladin was on the other side of the city at the time, warding off the demon lord attack"). But it can strain credulity that the party have slogged through challenges to reach their high-level, while Wizard Lucky just sort of turns up with them.

I don't think it remotely justifies the increased difficulty of making players play a low-level character who needs to earn their levels back (particularly because this leads to death spiraling, annoyed players, and still strains verisimilitude and requires a storyline reason - why are the party teaming up with somebody who can't keep up), but there is a line of logic behind where it comes from.

The reason it strains verisimilitude is a function of the level system, not the fact that the group is bringing along someone highly experienced to join them. I have rarely heard this objection from people playing any game besides D&D. Even so, the justification most commonly heard for starting out a new character at a lower level is punishment, not verisimilitude.

Droid Tony
2019-12-17, 10:00 PM
Odd question.....but if the player was stuck in this mindset: E

E: How about make a level equivalent character? Like sure the player is suck with the self rule that they MUST start as a first level character....but how about just pick a powerful race to balance things out? Be something like a 1st level fighter ogre or troll or whatever?


Though it might be best just to drop the ''must earn things" idea too.

Tanarii
2019-12-17, 11:12 PM
To give a personal answer as a player, I'm someone that generally feels XP/points are earned on a specific character and lost if that character dies, not earned by the player for the specific table any character they might bring said table. But I'd be willing to bend on it to play in a specific game. I'd probably go with B, and ask to come in at the minimum level/point total I felt I could still be an effective contributor. I've yet to have it come up because I mostly run games, and when I play it's usually in official play.

Running D&D campaigns, it depends on the campaign type. An open table campaign (a la official play) each character gains power completely independent. But of course players can run more than one. In single party campaigns, I usually offer a replacement character at the minimum effective level. (e.g. in 5e, that'd be the bottom of the current party tier of play.)


E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.lol I love it. I just finished reading some archive of Oots, and Elan's montage training for the Dashing Swordsman prestige class came to mind. :smallamused:


Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part. Not really. It's not that common nowadays, but it's still out there, to one degree or another. There are several posters on this forum alone that have some variation of the belief.


I find it hard to answer the question because it's kind of weirdly phrased.

"Let's assume you're someone who really hates A? What would you do if you had to do A, B or C?" Is just... nothing anyone can give a reasonable answer to.
Not claiming there is a reasonable answer. I was curious what people's response would be one two levels. The belief itself, and if anyone accepted the belief, ways to either stay with it or reasonable bend it.

Bohandas
2019-12-17, 11:44 PM
Monster character who doesn't have any levels but is the appropriate LA/ECL/CR to match the party

Koo Rehtorb
2019-12-18, 12:19 AM
Why can't you play a substantially weaker character? If the game is designed with this as even a remote possibility you should need much less xp to level than they do and should probably catch up to one or two levels behind relatively quickly. Start off as the apprentice/squire/caddie and grow into your own as you're thrown in the deep end.

Kane0
2019-12-18, 12:40 AM
Hmm, B.

10char

Quertus
2019-12-18, 04:37 AM
I would either a) choose an existing character at that power level; b) choose a character who can create a pawn to play at that power level; or c) run a brand new "monstrous" character at that power level (I'm a Trompe L'oeil who just got painted yesterday, as a silly example).

Or possibly d) run a 1st level character who wouldn't just die.

Leon
2019-12-18, 06:10 AM
A.

As much as i get attached to characters i also always have many idea's i want to try out usually based off a bit of cool art ive found. maybe also explore the possibility of staying around as a Ghost since if its far enough along the character would have goals that hadn't been achieved and give enough reason to not leave yet.

Unavenger
2019-12-18, 08:03 AM
Given that I'm never going to be in that position, I guess it's easier to think of what I'd do as a DM if a player felt that way. D&D 3.5, as well as most of the systems my friends and I have designed, help in this matter by having a built-in "Underdog" rule, whether it's 3.5's higher XP for low-level characters or [my friend's rules-heavier version of Roll for Shoes]' rule that gives you a level up on all-6s normally and on all-3+ if one or more of your allies knows at least twice as many skills of greater than first level than you, and also knows at least four such skills, plus all of your allies know at least two more skills than you, plus the difficulty roll for the check was higher than any roll you can make, even on a different skill.

In this case, it's relatively easy to sling an EL 10 encounter at three level 13s and a level 1, or have the unskilled character grab a bow and very quickly learn every ranged attack skill (while missing a lot). But what both of these methods have in common is that the character in question is very squishy, and isn't really contributing.

Another possibility is to have a split-ish encounter. The city is overrun with weaksauce zombies, and there's now vampires at the gate and it's probably a good idea to keep them out of the city. Perhaps you three could get on that, while the rookie fights through the zombies to get to the sun tower (did I mention we have one of those?) and point it at the vampires.

Alternatively alternatively, running the character through a very quick solo session where they have to deal with a bunch of stuff with a high experience:lethality ratio. Although they might eventually get bored of disarming approximately many Power Word: Stun traps...

zinycor
2019-12-18, 10:02 AM
A).

Someone else is running the game, if you want the game to be ran as you would like. Then you run it.

King of Nowhere
2019-12-18, 11:28 AM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them

And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table.

And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die.

Resurrection isn't a possibility.

this... is a very, very, VERY specific set of requirements.

First of all the player being so unwilling to compromise. and he would only accept to play a weak character that would stand no chance with the rest of the party.

and then the game going on for so long without a glitch, and without this unwillingness to compromise being challenged earlier.

and then you die and can't resurrect. very rare, this one. nobody wants to play a campaign where they could lose the character they invested so much time and effort into. so normally a campaign either has resurrection available, or you can't really die, or it's intended to be far shorter.

personally, though, i'd look for some other way to get back. we discussed a similar proposition in my party (resurrection gets harder and harder, there would be no big deal bringing in a new character but it would be hard to insert into the party, and i'm very fond of my current character). we are more inclined to have the wizard make a sort of sentient golem with some of my most iconic belongings amnd powered by my life force :smallcool:. that way, i could still use basically the same character

Anymage
2019-12-18, 11:58 AM
If it's a point based game, most of those have tighter power curves than level based games do. Your character may not be as strong as everybody else, but they can still find a niche. If you're really gung-ho about coming in weaker, you can try to work through that.

In a level based game? Unless you have a hankering for an old school Gygaxian thing (which includes harsh death penalties, but also so much more that you'll want to ensure the rest of your table is also into), it's easier to have someone who can match the team come in. Coming in at first level is just more hassle for everybody, yourself included.

Quertus
2019-12-18, 12:02 PM
this... is a very, very, VERY specific set of requirements.

First of all the player being so unwilling to compromise. and he would only accept to play a weak character that would stand no chance with the rest of the party.

and then the game going on for so long without a glitch, and without this unwillingness to compromise being challenged earlier.

and then you die and can't resurrect. very rare, this one. nobody wants to play a campaign where they could lose the character they invested so much time and effort into. so normally a campaign either has resurrection available, or you can't really die, or it's intended to be far shorter.

personally, though, i'd look for some other way to get back. we discussed a similar proposition in my party (resurrection gets harder and harder, there would be no big deal bringing in a new character but it would be hard to insert into the party, and i'm very fond of my current character). we are more inclined to have the wizard make a sort of sentient golem with some of my most iconic belongings amnd powered by my life force :smallcool:. that way, i could still use basically the same character

I'm guessing you're not an oldschool grognard. Back in my day, that was the norm. So it's not really as totally oddball as you're envisioning it to be. Just… outdated.

Kane0
2019-12-18, 04:37 PM
I'm guessing you're not an oldschool grognard. Back in my day, that was the norm. So it's not really as totally oddball as you're envisioning it to be. Just… outdated.

Wasn't it more across the board though? You woudn't often come across a situation where everybody leveled up into the teens before *one* character perished and rerolled at 1st, you'd have party members dropping off all along the way and having one survive all that was the more rare achievement.

Tanarii
2019-12-20, 09:40 AM
Why can't you play a substantially weaker character? If the game is designed with this as even a remote possibility you should need much less xp to level than they do and should probably catch up to one or two levels behind relatively quickly. Start off as the apprentice/squire/caddie and grow into your own as you're thrown in the deep end.Some systems, or some editions of some systems, don't support that very well. You end up with the classic problem of having Black Widow and Hawkeye on the one hand and Thor & Hulk on the other, all in a single party, and trying to figure out how to challenge them all without killing or otherwise marginalizing the first two or blatantly obvious deux ex machina / railroading.

Obviously I'm using combat potential for this comparison, but for a no-combat oriented game it might be like having Max Smart in the same party with Sherlock Holmes.


Or possibly d) run a 1st level character who wouldn't just die.Or run one that dies over and over again and not care too much that you're so outclassed. Done that, it's definitely a valid option if you can handle it as a player.

The bigger problem with that IMX is other players complaining about having to carry the bag and do all the work, while you milk whatever the XP-equivalent is.


I'm guessing you're not an oldschool grognard. Back in my day, that was the norm. So it's not really as totally oddball as you're envisioning it to be. Just… outdated.


Wasn't it more across the board though? You woudn't often come across a situation where everybody leveled up into the teens before *one* character perished and rerolled at 1st, you'd have party members dropping off all along the way and having one survive all that was the more rare achievement.
As I understand it, at large gaming groups (especially universities) the standard was for people to put together groups of about the same level and go do level appropriate things together. So if you gained levels, you'd just play that character less frequently until other players In other words, pretty much like open-table official play is today.

Either that or mid to high levels would bring along a couple of low levels and just power level them up. Same behavior happens in MMOs for that matter. What's weird is if people do this in modern TTRPs, IMX people complain about it being "too videogamey", as if it's violating some kind of TTRPG tradition.

MrStabby
2019-12-20, 11:32 AM
Time travel... kind of.

Start at the higher level.

Give your character a cool backstory involving their old party and their heroic adventures (vaguely defined).

Get buy-in from your group to run another campaign that kind of matches you backstory after this one.

Play a lower level version of your current character in that backstory.



You play all the lower power elements, it is earned. It just happens in a different order.

Satinavian
2019-12-20, 12:37 PM
I would try to find a compromise :

So... resurrection is impossible, but what about a new undead career ?
Or maybe you start at 0 XP but get huge temporary blessings that gradually become weaker as you catch up to the party ?
Or maybe the system allows significantly more powerful monster races and picking one of those at 0 xp would be more in line with the power of the party ? (3.x has ECL other systems have other things)

if a compromise was not possible i would consider if my desire is important enough to leave the group and act accordingly.

LordCdrMilitant
2019-12-20, 12:38 PM
Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

I mean, you did earn the XP to match the level of your previous character, as your previous character.

Quertus
2019-12-20, 12:59 PM
The bigger problem with that IMX is other players complaining about having to carry the bag and do all the work, while you milk whatever the XP-equivalent is.

If their biggest problem is that they're getting too much spotlight, then they shouldn't complain. Now, I don't like characters whose contribution is negative, who are actively sabotaging the campaign. But even that is acceptable at some tables, and this isn't even that.

Tanarii
2019-12-21, 09:29 AM
I mean, you did earn the XP to match the level of your previous character, as your previous character.Right But XP is character specific.

Personal belief here. But even trickle down character XP in character trees bothers me, since those 'reserve' characters aren't present in the adventure. Henchmen are a different matter, they're present and get a share of the XP. And let's not even get started on giving XP to absent players/characters.


If their biggest problem is that they're getting too much spotlight, then they shouldn't complain. Now, I don't like characters whose contribution is negative, who are actively sabotaging the campaign. But even that is acceptable at some tables, and this isn't even that.its not about spotlight. It's mechanical.
Keeping a lower level characters alive uses resources that could otherwise be used offensively, they can easily cause the group to perform worse than it would without then, ie they are a mechanical negative . And they get a full share of XP, while contributing very little, which is also a mechanical negative. That bothers some people.

It's exactly why many people used to eschew henchmen. Because when it's not another player, altruism and feeling like sacrificing for another person goes out the window.

GrayDeath
2019-12-21, 10:17 AM
Time travel... kind of.

Start at the higher level.

Give your character a cool backstory involving their old party and their heroic adventures (vaguely defined).

Get buy-in from your group to run another campaign that kind of matches you backstory after this one.

Play a lower level version of your current character in that backstory.



You play all the lower power elements, it is earned. It just happens in a different order.


This is the correct answer for the very few people who are in said very specific situation and have "unchangeable" preferences as listed.

All others, just build another char youw ant to play, and enjoy. ^^

Asmotherion
2019-12-21, 05:40 PM
Probably bring an NPC from my backstory as a PC. Probably a Mentor or Relative who has gained levels since old PC saw them.

Vaern
2019-12-21, 06:20 PM
If your character is to begin at the same level as the rest of the party and you're determined to maintain the idea that levels must be earned by the character, then just say that your character has earned those levels "off screen" while the PC party has been off on their own adventure.
Ask your DM what's going on in other nearby areas in your campaign setting. Your new character may have been solving some major crisis in a nearby city with his old party before the "real" PC party made it into town. Note these exploits in your character's backstory. Perhaps you can even arrange for the DM to have an NPC or two mention the exploits of this adventurer while they are searching for your old character's replacement. Depending on your level, your reputation should precede you.
The spell Legend Lore defines any character of 11th level or higher, as well as the equipment they use, creatures they encounter, or places where significant events involving them occur, as being legendary or of legendary importance. At that level or higher, your backstory should almost certainly contain at least one exploit significant enough for that the party might learn of it through a decent knowledge or bardic lore check.

zinycor
2019-12-21, 09:31 PM
Look, what you do is this:

bring that idea to your gaming table, maybe they will agree with you and rule something to your liking.

If not. you either agree to play by the rules at the table or find another table.

Delta
2019-12-23, 08:47 AM
If your character is to begin at the same level as the rest of the party and you're determined to maintain the idea that levels must be earned by the character, then just say that your character has earned those levels "off screen" while the PC party has been off on their own adventure.
Ask your DM what's going on in other nearby areas in your campaign setting. Your new character may have been solving some major crisis in a nearby city with his old party before the "real" PC party made it into town. Note these exploits in your character's backstory. Perhaps you can even arrange for the DM to have an NPC or two mention the exploits of this adventurer while they are searching for your old character's replacement. Depending on your level, your reputation should precede you.
The spell Legend Lore defines any character of 11th level or higher, as well as the equipment they use, creatures they encounter, or places where significant events involving them occur, as being legendary or of legendary importance. At that level or higher, your backstory should almost certainly contain at least one exploit significant enough for that the party might learn of it through a decent knowledge or bardic lore check.

While I love giving characters, especially those who join later on, a background linked to the campaign so it's interesting to the group, I'm not sure how that would solve the OPs problem. He still wouldn't have "earned" those levels in any way in that sense.

Quertus
2019-12-23, 08:48 AM
its not about spotlight. It's mechanical.
Keeping a lower level characters alive uses resources that could otherwise be used offensively, they can easily cause the group to perform worse than it would without then, ie they are a mechanical negative . And they get a full share of XP, while contributing very little, which is also a mechanical negative. That bothers some people.

It's exactly why many people used to eschew henchmen. Because when it's not another player, altruism and feeling like sacrificing for another person goes out the window.

You mean, you play with people who actually expense resources keeping low-level characters alive, rather than letting them sink or swim "survival of the fittest" style?

Hmmm… I'm too senile to remember for sure, but I'm not remembering much of that. More "well, I was going to DMM Persist Mass Lesser Vigor the entire party anyway, so I may as well include you, too", and, "cool, an excuse to show off how much we've grown by ROFLstomping some low-level threats that used to give us problems. Let's go back and give those kobolds what for. Wait, why is Tucker smiling?".

But, as a ****, I'll just say that parties that are too dumb to invest in their future survival deserve to die, "survival of the fittest" style. So, if the players are annoyed that they have to put any effort into getting a powerful teammate, then they deserve a TPK.

Tanarii
2019-12-23, 09:21 AM
While I love giving characters, especially those who join later on, a background linked to the campaign so it's interesting to the group, I'm not sure how that would solve the OPs problem. He still wouldn't have "earned" those levels in any way in that sense.
I think the key there is the post stated "earned by the character". That means it doesn't have to happen in game, it can have already happened historically. Or as part of a montage.

In other words, the opposite of "earned by the player", or at least "earned by the player at this table", in which you can move those XP/levels to any new character you bring to that table.

As opposed to "earned by the player for that specific character during play", which is what my OP meant. Possibly with an additional "at that specific table", or not depending on if it was official play or a cooperative new DM allowing a character port.

I just, like, assumed all that subtext was the default/normal and everyone else would automatically see it too, because of course I did. ;)

zinycor
2019-12-23, 03:45 PM
So, have you tried talking to your GM about it?

LordCdrMilitant
2019-12-23, 05:00 PM
I think the key there is the post stated "earned by the character". That means it doesn't have to happen in game, it can have already happened historically. Or as part of a montage.

In other words, the opposite of "earned by the player", or at least "earned by the player at this table", in which you can move those XP/levels to any new character you bring to that table.

As opposed to "earned by the player for that specific character during play", which is what my OP meant. Possibly with an additional "at that specific table", or not depending on if it was official play or a cooperative new DM allowing a character port.

I just, like, assumed all that subtext was the default/normal and everyone else would automatically see it too, because of course I did. ;)

I usually go with:
Players replacing characters get XP equal to the average of party XP. They get starting infamy/influence and starting corruption/insanity.
New players get XP equal to about 80% the average of the rest of the party's XP. They get infamy/influence equal to the lowest in the party, and corruption/insanity equal to the party average.
Absent players don't get XP from sessions they aren't part of.

For D&D/PF, and other systems that have levels, I usually just go with replacement characters and new characters are all at the same level of the rest of the party, and the party all levels together, absent or not.

Darth Tom
2020-01-03, 02:47 PM
It's not unreasonable: it's an approach to roleplaying.

I totally get it. Bringing in a new character can feel cheap, unearned, and like you're playing an empty statblock devoid of personality, not the friendyou had before. But I think the problem is a psychological one as much as a gaming one.

That character was a year of your life, a year of high adventure with friends. Now they are just... gone. You can't get that back. It might sound odd, but it is a shock, and you probably feel there is something missing. Ultimately, you are feeling grief for the loss of your avatar in that world.

I don't think it's reasonable to just tell a grieving person to get over it: it takes time to process these things, all the potential being gone and the good times never coming back. This is where the whole table needs to get together and support each other: with such a history of adventure, this may be tough for some of them to handle, too.

Maybe don't take any big decisions right away. If possible, see if the party can retreat from danger, hold a funeral for their friend, remember all those adventures and times, and properly role-play this stuff in character. During this time, maybe try playing your character's ghost or something, so you can interact and say goodbye to your friends. Ask them (in-character) what they want to do next. Ideally, you want this to reach a point where your character can depart at peace for their well-earned afterlife, and where the surviving members are comfortable with what they have decided to do. As you should be as well.

I'm not going to say what the solution will be. That's down to you, your friends, and your DM (hopefully I'm repeating myself there). Walking away may be the right option for you: I hope it isn't because it's a shame to lose a good friend and split a good table. But I've been in situations where I felt the right choice was to walk away from the things which gave my life purpose. Sometimes you can carry on, if sad, other times you need to start anew.

Best of luck.