Question about the wizard and the bard

[cantdecide]

I'll go straight to the point, who is more adept in lore and magic overall? Wizard or Bard?

From DnD books and other video games, they say bards are master of lore, but at the same time, wizards are also often depicted just like that.

I'm a liitle confused, because I feel they are somewhat overlapped. I often find pieces of information say that bards are the practioner of the most ancient magic (from many world building posts on reddit, or from the chanter class description of Pillars of Eternity) and are (somehow?) the researcher of ancient lores or something like that.

I can't help but wondering, that is just like the wizard, plus the instrument or storytelling element (that they don't even need sometimes).

Please enlighten me :smallsmile:

[caden_varn]

I'd say the wizard is specifically the master of magical lore. Bardic knowledge is wider - history, geography, legends as well as magic, but perhaps not as deep in the specialist areas, such as magic for a wizard, religion for a cleric etc.

[Psyren]

The ways to measure aptitude in lore and magic vary a lot by edition (and system of course). Which game are you asking about specifically?

The fact that you're even asking this question suggests that it's not D&D 3e, so I'm guessing D&D 5e?

[GrayDeath]

Depends on the edition.

usually in my games, the bard is Master of Lore (All of it) while the Wizard is Grand Master of Lore (Magic).

[cantdecide]

The ways to measure aptitude in lore and magic vary a lot by edition (and system of course). Which game are you asking about specifically?

The fact that you're even asking this question suggests that it's not D&D 3e, so I'm guessing D&D 5e?
I’m not really talking about editions and gameplay but more about flavours/roleplay/lore aspect.
But if you ask, it is 5e.

[Willie the Duck]

I’m not really talking about editions and gameplay but more about flavours/roleplay/lore aspect.

On a thematic level (and deliberately reducing down to common denominator tropes and the like), a Bard is a well-travelled entertainer who has heard every tale, learned every ballad, encountered every culture, and seen all sorts of things. They may very well know that the capital of the ancient kingdom of Zhyyylk was the city of Jhuuf, which is modern-day Kfahr, and that the hero Gymdalon slew the mighty Swamp giant (they're extinct now) with a sword of magical unmelting ice. A wizard is a dusty old meister reading dusty old tomes in a dusty old tower (why people with access to Prestidigitation have dust, no one knows), and they will know that a sword of magical unmelting ice can be crafted with the tears of a white dragon curdled in mare's milk and mixed with gelatinous cube corpus.

When it comes to who-knows-more, the bard is the generalist, but also more likely to have applied knowledge (or knowledge applicable to direct action). The wizard is a specialist in things magical, and even then focusing more on what you can do with/to a thing with lots of preparation and equipment. If you want to know how to capture a wererabbit, ask the bard. If you want to know what you can do with a captured wererabbit, ask a wizard.

[cantdecide]

On a thematic level (and deliberately reducing down to common denominator tropes and the like), a Bard is a well-travelled entertainer who has heard every tale, learned every ballad, encountered every culture, and seen all sorts of things. They may very well know that the capital of the ancient kingdom of Zhyyylk was the city of Jhuuf, which is modern-day Kfahr, and that the hero Gymdalon slew the mighty Swamp giant (they're extinct now) with a sword of magical unmelting ice. A wizard is a dusty old meister reading dusty old tomes in a dusty old tower (why people with access to Prestidigitation have dust, no one knows), and they will know that a sword of magical unmelting ice can be crafted with the tears of a white dragon curdled in mare's milk and mixed with gelatinous cube corpus.

When it comes to who-knows-more, the bard is the generalist, but also more likely to have applied knowledge (or knowledge applicable to direct action). The wizard is a specialist in things magical, and even then focusing more on what you can do with/to a thing with lots of preparation and equipment. If you want to know how to capture a wererabbit, ask the bard. If you want to know what you can do with a captured wererabbit, ask a wizard.
An interesting answer. I would like to know your opinion about the “ancient magic” part. That’s kind of the primary reason why I have this confusion.

[Jay R]

Which wizard and which bard?

Not all wizards study the same things, and not all bards have the same focus.

[gkathellar]

Whichever one has the higher Arcana modifier.

[Willie the Duck]

An interesting answer. I would like to know your opinion about the “ancient magic” part. That’s kind of the primary reason why I have this confusion.

Okay, well you will have to expand on what you want to know, otherwise I am just blathering, but here goes--
The thing to remember about bards (/minstrels, as those seem to be part of the fantasy bard concept) are conveyors of an oral history tradition. Thus, they will know and share stuff that was at one point in time common, un-secret (or open secret) knowledge. They are the ones who keep alive the tales that were told over campfires, not in back rooms. So if the party has fought with a Rahshasa and the party fighter can no longer rest, the bard will know how to resolve the situation if the answer came up in the Tales of Kahclok the Night Stalker, the bard will know it. If it is instead a secret know to the ancient alchemists of Ocerg-Namor Tpyge 1200 years ago, the bard would likely have no way of having heard the tale, and the wizard would be a better source of information.

[Psyren]

I’m not really talking about editions and gameplay but more about flavours/roleplay/lore aspect.
But if you ask, it is 5e.

"Overall magic aptitude" of a game class is gameplay/mechanics though. How else would you measure it?

In 3e, Wizards are much more powerful than Bards. In 4e they're closer to being equal, and in 5e they pull ahead again but much less than they did in 3e, because both get 9th-level spells.

In terms of lore, that is less a function of class and more a function of proficiencies and allocations. The smartest wizard in the world with the wrong background will never know more than common knowledge about a given topic.

[Jay R]

It's not necessarily a question of more or less. They will have different kinds of knowledge, not just different amounts. A wizard will have read the research writings of previous wizards, while a bard will know the legends and stories that have been told.

Maybe an example would help. I once took part in a real-life situation that demonstrated the difference between Knowledge (History) and Bardic Lore.

I was in a discussion with two people, both of whom know far more medieval history than I do. So I was mostly listening. Then the question came up, "Who was the King of England that Joan of Arc fought in battle?"

One of the historians started thinking, "Let's see, she served Charles the VI and Charles VII of France. Who were they married to?"

The other historian started by remembering that it was close to 1430.

Either of them would have figured it out in a minute or two. But I answered first. With far less knowledge of history, I evidently made my Bardic Lore check, and immediately answered, "Henry the Sixth, Part One."

[Man_Over_Game]

The thing to remember about bards (/minstrels, as those seem to be part of the fantasy bard concept) are conveyors of an oral history tradition.

That's the the key point that I've seen in this thread. Wizards read things, Bards hear them. Both can learn secrets, but there's a difference between a secret written down and hidden away for future use, vs. a spoken secret passed down to ensure it's never written down.


Nobody would ever dare talk about the hidden weaknesses of Krognag, the Desolate. However, the Wizard might have read a dark tome that described his imprisonment long ago.

On the other hand, a shadowy guild might know that the daughter of The Desolate is a mortal, and that info might have found its way to the Bard's contacts.

Is the subject matter about things corporeal, or incorporeal? Real legends, or metaphysical ones?

[Jay R]

Nobody would ever dare talk about the hidden weaknesses of Krognag, the Desolate.

No, but an old song about the great hero who defeated Krognag's grandfather might supply the clue you need.

[Man_Over_Game]

No, but an old song about the great hero who defeated Krognag's grandfather might supply the clue you need.

Sure, but that's focusing more on the Grandfather than the God. The subject matters.

Consider our own Bible. You end up reading a lot more about God's People than God Himself. People don't like to talk about Gods, either out of respect, blasphemy, or both. In a world where Gods can walk around and sunder your city on a whim, I'd imagine this is doubly true.

[patchyman]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that bards are far more intelligent than wizards.

After all, after studying the mysteries of the universe, the 1st level wizard has learned a few magical tricks.

The bard has learned to wear armor effectively, combat with a small number of weapons (including longswords, a martial weapon), more skills, has mastered multiple musical instruments sufficiently to earn a living from playing them...plus a few magical tricks. All this, despite an 8 intelligence.

Intelligence, it ain’t what it’s cracked up to be.

[JoeJ]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that bards are far more intelligent than wizards.

After all, after studying the mysteries of the universe, the 1st level wizard has learned a few magical tricks.

The bard has learned to wear armor effectively, combat with a small number of weapons (including longswords, a martial weapon), more skills, has mastered multiple musical instruments sufficiently to earn a living from playing them...plus a few magical tricks. All this, despite an 8 intelligence.

Intelligence, it ain’t what it’s cracked up to be.

Maybe it's an 8. It could be as low as 3 if ability scores were rolled.

[Droid Tony]

I'm a liitle confused, because I feel they are somewhat overlapped. I often find pieces of information say that bards are the practioner of the most ancient magic (from many world building posts on reddit, or from the chanter class description of Pillars of Eternity) and are (somehow?) the researcher of ancient lores or something like that.


Well, really all spellcasters are "practioners of the most ancient magic" as magic has been around from the dawn of time.

Most editions of D&D have Elven Spellsong Bards that practice 20,000 year old ancient magic.....but then they also have Elven High Magic Wizards that practice 40,000 year old ancient magic. Though it's all relative. Is ones magic that is 12,000 years old ''better" then the only 5,000 year old magic?