To Bladelock or Not?

[jaappleton]

Its no secret that Eldritch Blast, from the get-go, is one of the best damage cantrips in the game. Force damage which is hardly resisted, +Cha Mod to damage via Agonizing Blast at lv2 as an invocation, can be further augmented with other invocations to control the battlefield, etc.

Its not a weapon. So its not compatible with GWM, SS, any magic item that adds a modifier like a Scimitar +2, can't be impacted by spells like Holy Weapon, etc.

I do believe that if its truly optimized, you can get more damage out of a weapon and that's not exactly difficult to achieve. However...

There's quite a feat tax on Bladelocks. Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Smite, and that's before you get to armor (Eldritch Armor, Armor of Shadows, or perhaps a feat, or having to pick Hexblade).

My question is this:

Are the freed up invocations by going Eldritch Blast over Bladelock worth it?

[nickl_2000]

To answer you question, what sound more fun? Bladelock or Machine Gun EBer?

[da newt]

For a MC or Warlock only?

In my opinion, it's more about ranged vs melee than amount of damage (and I am a true believer in fighting from distance).

[jaappleton]

Especially if you include the Class Variant Invocations, I think that Eldritch Blaster comes out far ahead in terms of what it can do. Heck, Tome users can basically Death Ward the party every day for an Invocation starting at lv9. They lose a bit of damage but they just get sooo much.

This is an interesting exercise for me. Normally I hate their style of casting but... I'm getting excited about being a Warlock over here.

https://media.giphy.com/media/ftXmTBgSnsJ8c/giphy.gif

[Spiritchaser]

So, are you prepared to go all the way with this?

An EB machine gun takes a handful of invocations for agonizing blast, repelling blast, and really, for Devil’s sight as well, because darkness/devil’s sight can be every bit as tactically relevant at range as it is in melee. That gives you all the rest of your build for the concept, control or utility you wish.

A GWM bladelock needs to invest a very great deal to be a bit better than the typical ranged warlock, and that means a lot less utility and conceptual flexibility. If you’re just talking about damage it’s probably not worth it to most people.

But with all the investments, you are bringing one more thing.

You’re bringing an angry wall your foes need to get through.

Already have a sentinel or conquest pally fighting beside snuggleguts the grapplebarian?

This might not be worth too much to your party

But a hexblade with res con or a F1 bladelock can actually make a really tough target to kill, and you’re a target that does enough damage, and if needed you can control los well enough with darkness that the enemy will really want to kill you.

That has a lot of utility too.

Just make sure you have your con save covered.

Once that goes down, you’re going down

[Joe the Rat]

The big difference here is giving up the burst option (Eldritch Smite) for more utility. Raw damage does a little back-and-forth by levels, but ultimately it's sustained per turn 2*(weap+attack+Cha+rider(hex))+smite, vs 4*(1d10+Cha+rider) with spell slots left over. Blading comes out ahead through resource expenditure, and can burn said resources without breaking attack spam.

If you want an equivalent style investment (finger gun specialist), Repelling Blast, Grasp of Hadar, Lance of Lethargy, maybe Spear fills the invocations. You are trading burst for range and forced positioning.

Alternatively, you pump those resources into pact invocations - Mr all-nighter ritual caster, superscout maxheal dominator, etc., or the must have utilities - devil's sight is immensely popular.

But ultimately I think it's a false dichotomy - one Invocation is all it takes to get the blast damage. Before you hit lifedrinker, you'll have the room.

[Dork_Forge]

Something to keep in mind is that Bladelocks aren't under any more of an invocation tax than any other specialist. If you want to max out EB then you're looking at 3+ invocations (and even if you don't specialise a lot of people on this board seem to consider AB essential) and you'll still need AC whether you are up in melee or not. Whether a certain option is worth it is generally up to what you'd prefer, personally I find being an EB machine boring and prefer to use other spells and weapons and you can certianly be very effective as a Warlock without EB.

So my bias vote goes to Bladelock, though knowing more about your game circumstances would help.

[jaappleton]

There is I think one singular magic item that puts Eldritch Blast users over and above Bladelocks.

And if you can get it.... Wow does it alter everything.

It was introduced in Guildmaster’s Guide to Ravnica, so I won’t blame anyone if they’ve never heard of it.

——
Very Rare
Requires Attunement by a Spellcaster

While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time.

——

Obviously that requires some DM cooperation to get something like that. But... DAMN.

[Dork_Forge]

There is I think one singular magic item that puts Eldritch Blast users over and above Bladelocks.

And if you can get it.... Wow does it alter everything.

It was introduced in Guildmaster’s Guide to Ravnica, so I won’t blame anyone if they’ve never heard of it.

——
Very Rare
Requires Attunement by a Spellcaster

While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time.

——

Obviously that requires some DM cooperation to get something like that. But... DAMN.

Yeah I wouldn't count on that, GGtR has some very suspect things in it in general that stink of powercreep.

[Keravath]

They are both fun and play very differently.

The melee bladelock has to invest in feats to be reliable and outdamage the EB warlock.

PAM, GWM and resilient CON are essential.

Combine with darkness+devils sight for advantage at low levels and Shadows of Moil for level 7+.

There is also an invocation "tax". Early on improved pact weapon (until you get a better magical weapon), thirsting blade and lifedrinker. Eldritch smite isn't even worth considering until tier 3 or beyond in my opinion since the spell slots are used for darkness/shadow of moil to allow for advantage on all your attacks and disadvantage to hit you.

Variant human works best since you can start with PAM (or resilient con). GWM is to max damage in the long run. Without GWM, EB will be outdamaging a melee bladelock.

The melee bladelock has room to pick up agonizing blast about level 7 for ranged attacks. I currently have a 10 bladelock/1 shadow sorcerer (The shadow sorcerer level is for regular spell slots and additional cantrips mostly, the character acquired a ring of spell storing but without level 1 spell slots I couldn't put shield/hex/absorb elements into the ring as 1st level spells ... I had to use 5th level slots as a 9th level warlock which allowed one spell to be stored in the ring).

A warlock that relies on EB and related invocations for damage/control will max charisma much earlier and will have a wider variety of support options. However, agonizing blast+ repelling blast + maybe eldritch spear .. is pretty much the same number of invocations needed to support bladelock (thirsting blade + improved pact weapon/lifedrinker) so there isn't much difference in the total number of extra invocations available to each build - it is more the allocation of feats/ASIs that differs.

[Willie the Duck]

They are both fun and play very differently.

The melee bladelock has to invest in feats to be reliable and outdamage the EB warlock.

I think this sums it up very well. If you decide to go for damage by being a (presumably) Hexblade Bladelock Warlock, you can get some amazing damage, but to do so you have to commit to it**. Either getting magic weapons and/or taking useful weapon feats. It ends up making the class something of an alternate Eldritch Knight, or at least you probably benchmark your success using the same metrics. It will feel different from something like a Celestial Tomelock or Goo chainlock or just someone who dedicates most of their ASIs and invocations to non-direct-combat things.
**Note, you don't have to. Honestly you can play one as just a warlock who has medium armor, Shield and Blink, and two melee attacks after tier two if you are forced into melee. That works too and only really eats your Pact and Boon choices. But you get out of it what you put in.

[Keravath]

I think this sums it up very well. If you decide to go for damage by being a (presumably) Hexblade Bladelock Warlock, you can get some amazing damage, but to do so you have to commit to it**. Either getting magic weapons and/or taking useful weapon feats. It ends up making the class something of an alternate Eldritch Knight, or at least you probably benchmark your success using the same metrics. It will feel different from something like a Celestial Tomelock or Goo chainlock or just someone who dedicates most of their ASIs and invocations to non-direct-combat things.
**Note, you don't have to. Honestly you can play one as just a warlock who has medium armor, Shield and Blink, and two melee attacks after tier two if you are forced into melee. That works too and only really eats your Pact and Boon choices. But you get out of it what you put in.

Yep. My benchmark was actually the reckless attack barbarian with PAM and GWM. I wanted to build something that would have comparable or better damage with more utility and survivability.

Using Shadow of Moil or darkness+devils sight for advantage to attack and disadvantage to be hit, a few levels of sorcerer for quicken meta-magic (to get that vision obscuration spell out on the first round as a bonus action), plus the additional spell slots to effectively use shield gives a decent alternative to high melee damage barbarians while having far more utility and being harder to hit. Lifedrinker at level 12 will be an extra +cha on each hit. Eventually, the character hits for <weapon damage or d4>+20 with three attacks/round, advantage on attacks, disadvantage to be hit, shield spell, decent armor. It plays pretty much as you might expect but with high charisma, some social skills, the sorcerer dip spells and cantrips, as well as the invocations ... I find the character is also fun to play out of combat.

---

One of the interesting aspects of the EB warlock is that any class with decent charisma and two levels of warlock can take on that role while the melee bladelock requires a lot of investment in warlock and extra feats to make it work.

[Pex]

Nothing is stopping a Bladelock from having Agonizing Eldritch Blast himself. There are times you will need to attack from range so have something awesome like all the other warlocks.

You say tax like it's a bad thing to take those things. They aren't bad. They are effective, and if they're fun for you take them. They are also not forced obligations. If you don't want them don't take them. Maybe you like some of them but not all of them. Take the ones you want. No harm asking for insight on other possible combinations of game mechanics you haven't though of for inspiration, but you don't need our permission if you just want the "taxes".

Put another way, the advice I'm offering is one of perspective. I'm getting the impression you're seeing building a warlock as a burden. Instead, think about what you'll enjoy doing, not what you think other people might say you're doing it wrong.