Does this work? Stacking Personal Weapon Augmentation

[newguydude1]

I got lot of different opinions whether multiple castings of personal weapon augmentation stack.

One person says casting multiple resist energies and elemental immunities affecting different elements stack.
The rules for stacking called "Same Effect with Differing Results" don't apply here because these are different effects even though they are from the same spell.
Then he said resist energy and elemental immunity has the word gain and grant.
Then he said personal weapon augmentation also has the word gain.
So like resist energy, casting personal weapon augmentation multiple times will have the weapon gain multiple +1 effects and they all stack.

Other person say "Same Effect with Differing Results" use "same spell" in its description so it applies.

Another person say when personal weapon augmentation is used on a +3 weapon personal weapon augmentation fails because the weapon already has a +3 effect so it can't gain a +1 effect because it's the same effect.

Who is right?

[Crake]

After having a read, I would agree that by RAW this would seem to fall under the same rules as resist energy, in that, as long as you pick a different special ability, you can just keep stacking abilities on your weapon. Normally in circumstances where they intentionally aren't able to stack, you'd get wording that specifically says "You may only have one such extra special ability on your weapon at any time" or something along those lines.

But that being said, as a 1st level infusion, and with a decent duration, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a DM to houserule that you can only gain the benefit of it once per weapon. Being able to, for example, at say level 3 or 4, stack on 3 different elemental abilities on your weapon for an extra 3d6 damage per attack, for 30-40 minutes, which is definitely long enough to last an entire expedition into any encounter-ridden adventure stronghold, seems maybe a little too strong, though I guess that would vary depending on the table in question.

[Falontani]

Another person say when personal weapon augmentation is used on a +3 weapon personal weapon augmentation fails because the weapon already has a +3 effect so it can't gain a +1 effect because it's the same effect.


To clarify, because I believe that this person is me; the +3 weapon would become a +4 weapon, however using the infusion again would not boost it to a +5 weapon, but overwrite the temporary +1. Pushing it back to a +4 weapon with a different effect (ie frost instead of flaming)

[liquidformat]

To clarify, because I believe that this person is me; the +3 weapon would become a +4 weapon, however using the infusion again would not boost it to a +5 weapon, but overwrite the temporary +1. Pushing it back to a +4 weapon with a different effect (ie frost instead of flaming)

Why would it do that? You can have +5 worth of special abilities on a weapon and nothing inside the spell says otherwise. Also this seems like a very weird and erroneous ruling.

[Crake]

Why would it do that? You can have +5 worth of special abilities on a weapon and nothing inside the spell says otherwise. Also this seems like a very weird and erroneous ruling.

Actually, there's no limit on how many special abilities a weapon can have, the only limit is on crafting, pre-epic can only have up to +10 total. You could have a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special abilities, and then use this infusion to get that up to +1 with +10 worth of special abilities.

[liquidformat]

Actually, there's no limit on how many special abilities a weapon can have, the only limit is on crafting, pre-epic can only have up to +10 total. You could have a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special abilities, and then use this infusion to get that up to +1 with +10 worth of special abilities.

huh, must be a house rule of my group I always thought you could only could have +5 of special abilities pre-epic and haven't seen a weapon that breaks that at our table...

[Falontani]

You can have a +4 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +5. You can have a +5 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +6. You can have a +6 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +7 etc.
But I believe that by RAW you can't take a +3 weapon and apply two personal weapon augmentations to push it to +5.

[Crichton]

You can have a +4 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +5. You can have a +5 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +6. You can have a +6 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +7 etc.
But I believe that by RAW you can't take a +3 weapon and apply two personal weapon augmentations to push it to +5.

Just to gain some clarity, specifically what text in the entry of Personal Weapon Augmentation leads you to think that's the RAW of it?

Because closely reading the Personal Weapon Augmentation text, and the text on Magic Weapons and weapon special abilities, it sure looks like you could use PWA to stack as many +1 (or <10000gp) special abilities as you have Infusion slots for, and they'd each function until their individual durations expired. Though it does appear from the specific text used in the Magic Weapon section that you might be able to make a RAW case for not being able to exceed +10 total before epic, though even that would need some further scrutiny, due to the specific wording in PWA about not being an enhancement bonus nor needing one to start with, but that's another topic altogether.

[Crake]

This is a bit of a side tangent, but oh man, could you imagine, you're about to face some demons, so you put magebane, evil outsider bane, chaotic outsider bane and blessed on your weapon? That would be an extra +6 to hit, +6d6+6 damage, and overcome DR/good, plus auto-crit. Damn, that'd be pretty insane for just four 1st level infusions.

[gogogome]

You can have a +4 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +5. You can have a +5 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +6. You can have a +6 weapon and use personal weapon augmentation to push it to +7 etc.
But I believe that by RAW you can't take a +3 weapon and apply two personal weapon augmentations to push it to +5.

If you believe resist energy of different elements can be stacked you are incorrect.


After having a read, I would agree that by RAW this would seem to fall under the same rules as resist energy, in that, as long as you pick a different special ability, you can just keep stacking abilities on your weapon. Normally in circumstances where they intentionally aren't able to stack, you'd get wording that specifically says "You may only have one such extra special ability on your weapon at any time" or something along those lines.

But that being said, as a 1st level infusion, and with a decent duration, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a DM to houserule that you can only gain the benefit of it once per weapon. Being able to, for example, at say level 3 or 4, stack on 3 different elemental abilities on your weapon for an extra 3d6 damage per attack, for 30-40 minutes, which is definitely long enough to last an entire expedition into any encounter-ridden adventure stronghold, seems maybe a little too strong, though I guess that would vary depending on the table in question.

If your PCs don't get attacked while resting then you're correct. Me on the other hand always spread my encounters out throughout the day even if it's a dungeon diving grind so spending all of your resources at once is not a good idea.


huh, must be a house rule of my group I always thought you could only could have +5 of special abilities pre-epic and haven't seen a weapon that breaks that at our table...

Probably because magic weapons are ludicrously expensive to the point it's unusable and it being totally not worth the money you need to sink into it.

[Crake]

If your PCs don't get attacked while resting then you're correct. Me on the other hand always spread my encounters out throughout the day even if it's a dungeon diving grind so spending all of your resources at once is not a good idea.

Well, I mean, it depends on the context. For example, if you've been investigating a cultist church, and you've had a few encounters throughout the day, but in the process discovered that the head cleric is in fact a shapeshifting demon that's corrupting the clergy, and you're mid level, so you've still got a bunch of 1st level infusions left, having spent your high level infusions throughout the earlier encounters? Why not just go all in on making your weapon a badass demonslayer? I mean, i wouldn't be expecting to fight demons before at LEAST 6th or 7th level, at which point four first level infusions aren't exactly a huge chunk of your resources. A decent chunk sure, but not a huge chunk.

[gogogome]

Well, I mean, it depends on the context. For example, if you've been investigating a cultist church, and you've had a few encounters throughout the day, but in the process discovered that the head cleric is in fact a shapeshifting demon that's corrupting the clergy, and you're mid level, so you've still got a bunch of 1st level infusions left, having spent your high level infusions throughout the earlier encounters? Why not just go all in on making your weapon a badass demonslayer? I mean, i wouldn't be expecting to fight demons before at LEAST 6th or 7th level, at which point four first level infusions aren't exactly a huge chunk of your resources. A decent chunk sure, but not a huge chunk.

I was thinking more of levels 1-3 when artificers don't really do anything. Stacking 4 different anti-demon enchantments just puts you on the same level as normal gishes imo.

[Aharon]

Let's look at the rules text:


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

This perfectly describes what happens when you cast more than one augmentation - the same spell has varying effects, thus the last spell trumps the others.

[Crake]

I was thinking more of levels 1-3 when artificers don't really do anything. Stacking 4 different anti-demon enchantments just puts you on the same level as normal gishes imo.

Right, I wouldn't really be expecting you to fight demons at levels 1-3, or, if you were, not demons that require 6d6 extra damage per swing anyway :smalltongue:

Still, 6d6+6 extra damage for a handful of 1st level infusions, for several encounters in a row is pretttyyy strong, which is why, despite the fact that the RAW doesn't imply you can't keep stacking abilities, I would probably houserule that it can only be used once per weapon.

[Falontani]

Just to gain some clarity, specifically what text in the entry of Personal Weapon Augmentation leads you to think that's the RAW of it?

Because closely reading the Personal Weapon Augmentation text, and the text on Magic Weapons and weapon special abilities, it sure looks like you could use PWA to stack as many +1 (or <10000gp) special abilities as you have Infusion slots for, and they'd each function until their individual durations expired. Though it does appear from the specific text used in the Magic Weapon section that you might be able to make a RAW case for not being able to exceed +10 total before epic, though even that would need some further scrutiny, due to the specific wording in PWA about not being an enhancement bonus nor needing one to start with, but that's another topic altogether.

Because in my RAW reading the effect of the spell is to increase the enchantment value of the weapon by 1. In doing so you grant some property to the weapon like evil outsider bane. Casting the spell again is attempting to increase the enchantment value of the weapon by 1 again, thus letting to the same effect.

[Crichton]

Because in my RAW reading the effect of the spell is to increase the enchantment value of the weapon by 1. In doing so you grant some property to the weapon like evil outsider bane. Casting the spell again is attempting to increase the enchantment value of the weapon by 1 again, thus letting to the same effect.

Well, given the wording of the Infusion, that's explicitly not happening: "The weapon does not have to have an existing enhancement bonus, nor does it gain one when you imbue it with this infusion."

Additionally, if you read the Magic Weapon entry that describes bonuses, you'll find that aside from actual enhancement bonuses(the 'numbered' ones), special ability bonuses don't 'increase the enchantment value' as you say but instead only count "for determining the market value of the item". The Infusion does nothing to the 'market value', and even if it did, nothing in doing so would prevent it, as it's worded now, from adding more special abilities on top of that.






This perfectly describes what happens when you cast more than one augmentation - the same spell has varying effects, thus the last spell trumps the others.

Now that, on the other hand, is using actual rules text, and would probably shut down multiple Infusion stacking from the same Infusion, since they do explicitly "follow all the rules for spells". Thanks for contributing that. One could (probably correctly) argue, though, that you could use Personal WA and Lesser WA to at least get 2 different +1 effects added, since they aren't technically the same Infusion, so then they would stack, by that rule. (and of course, the regular and Greater versions already allow multiples, but they too would stack with added effects from PWA and LWA)

[Falontani]

Well, given the wording of the Infusion, that's explicitly not happening: "The weapon does not have to have an existing enhancement bonus, nor does it gain one when you imbue it with this infusion."

Additionally, if you read the Magic Weapon entry that describes bonuses, you'll find that aside from actual enhancement bonuses(the 'numbered' ones), special ability bonuses don't 'increase the enchantment value' as you say but instead only count "for determining the market value of the item". The Infusion does nothing to the 'market value', and even if it did, nothing in doing so would prevent it, as it's worded now, from adding more special abilities on top of that.



Enhancement is not the same thing as enchantment. The enhancement bonus is the +x number, which may be increased but is explicitly not needed. +1 increase to the enhancement value is a +1 increase to the enchantment value.

The infusion increases the enchantment value by 1. In doing so you may add any +1 enchantment such as but not limited to: bane, flaming, increase the enhancement value by 1, etc.

Per the dmg flaming burst is a +2 enchantment, however per MiC if a weapon possesses flaming already then flaming burst becomes a +1 synergy enchantment.

In addition the infusion says you may instead do any enchantment (usually found on weapons) worth up to 10k gp, following srd enchantment rules you could add the following:

This black +1 dagger has a serrated edge. It allows the wielder to use a poison effect (as the spell, save DC 14) upon a creature struck by the blade once per day. The wielder can decide to use the power after he has struck. Doing so is a free action, but the poison effect must be invoked in the same round that the dagger strikes.

Faint necromancy; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, poison; Price 8,302 gp; Cost 4,302 gp + 320 XP.
Subtract the 2k gp of the +1 property, and the 302 gp of the masterwork dagger and we get a market price of 6,000 gp for the venom enchantment. 3k for the actual crafting process.
3(spell level)x5(caster level)x2,000=30,000 gp, 1/5=0.2, 30,000x0.2=6,000.
The venom enchantment is frequently found on weapons, yup. So the infusion may also grant this enchantment as an example.

You could argue that an enhancement value is not considered a special ability, and that the infusion specifically may not grant an enhancement bonus, but the infusion most definitely increases the Enchantment Value of the weapon which is primarily used to calculate value/cost of the weapon.

[Crake]

There's no such thing as an "enchantment value". There's enhancement cost equivilency, which is used to determine market value, but the spell simply says that you add a special ability to the weapon, who's cost value is either +1 equivilency, or up to 10,000gp in static value.

[Falontani]

There's no such thing as an "enchantment value". There's enhancement cost equivilency, which is used to determine market value, but the spell simply says that you add a special ability to the weapon, who's cost value is either +1 equivilency, or up to 10,000gp in static value.

I apologize, I guess I'm just wrong, I could have sworn that was a thing.

[TiaC]

If you can stack Personal Weapon Augmentation, the elemental power enhancements from DMG2 would be the best low-level options. One casting to add the elemental damage to your weapon, one to let you summon a Large Elemental.