PDA

View Full Version : My Barbarian is KILLING me! Help.



Sonofaspectre
2007-10-20, 03:51 PM
If you are reading this and playing in my "7 of 7" campaign, stop reading now. This is a punishable offense by character death.




I have a problem. A player in my party, who is a known powergamer min/maxer is out of control. He is a dwarven barbarian, level 6 now. He rolled his stats, and ... well ... just take a look.

Barbarian (Whirling Dervish Variant) lvl 6
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 5
Feats: Diehard, Pointblank Shot, Extra Rage

You get the gist. To put everything on top of everything, he took Extra Rage this session, because he found out he was going to be in four encounters ... (I'm running the Alabaster Cup and it is the last day of the three day trials, which had four fight-to-the-death style encounters.)

Now that he can rage 5 times a day, it a throwning axe monster that hits anything of appropriate CR on a 4, and I have to constantly audit his sheet for "math mistakes," I don't know how to challenge him in anyway that is fair to the rest of the party:

Dark Human Thief 5
Human Monk 7
Danaan (Homebrew Tree Climbing race) Druid 7
Zai (Homebrew Froggy race) Warlock 7
Kitsune (Homebrew ... Kitsune race) Bard 3/Swashbuckler 4
Qrill (Homebrew Shrimp person race) Aegis (Homebrew Spartanish class) 6

I need help. I've threatened the damned crab, but I don't want the rest of the party to suffer by having two swarms (which would be the appropriate CR for them) when I just have to nerf the one dwarf.

NOTE: I have told the player consistantly that he is outshining the group and unbalancing the game. But because he has a 5 in an ability point, he thinks that it is ok. Even though he is pissed I'm not allowing the variant STR to Intimidate.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-20, 04:06 PM
I would just tell it to him straight. If he contiunes to power game, just ask him to find annother group. Either that, or just pit him against ability draining things until his stats are normal. When he tries to heal this, tell him that it is Vile ability drain and the he must quest to find the cure.

(Note: As far as I know, Vile ability drain does not exist, and if it does, I do not recomend using its mechanic, since it would probably be too easy for him to get his scores back).

Sonofaspectre
2007-10-20, 04:08 PM
That's a good start. I realized I was having a problem with him when there was no way for my Ninja NPC to deal damage to him. At all. He went invisible, two-weaponed sudden striked some kukris, and nothing happened ...

I'm already penalizing him without magic items, as a note, or at least, no combat items. While the rest of the part is getting ridiculous stuff, best he's gotten is a masterwork great axe.

Thought this would help.

kpenguin
2007-10-20, 04:09 PM
Put him in a diplomatic situation. Set it up so that only he has to talk and only he is affected by it. Make him weep as he fails skill check after skill check.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-20, 04:10 PM
You mean your ninja couldn't hit a flat-footed opponent with 3 attacks on a roll of 20?

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-20, 04:11 PM
Wow, If he rolled those stats in front of you just work with it. However to be honest? It does not look to me like the character is that bad aside from phenomenally good stats.

First question though how does he have Die hard without endurance?.

Secondly he does not have either two weapon fighting or quick draw. This means that he is either restricted to throwing one axe a round. Or is suffering from the two weapon fighting penalties.

With the above built if he is holding an Axe in each hand and throwing both at once then he gets the full penalties -6 -6? I dont know what they are off hand but the table is easy to find.

Enforce the rules for drawing new weapons. Without quick draw this means he's using move action's to draw new axes.

Alright now to an appropriate challenge. Barbarian's big thing is the rage and rage runs out. If you really feel like giving him an oponent which is there specifically to challenge him (although i dont know if this is a good method to deal with the problem) Either give him an oponent that can wait out the rage or one that can keep long distances and avoid the thrown weapons (a monk with deflect and snatch feats should fit)

For the record I don't think he has chosen that well for feats. for a thrown axe person TWF QuickDraw Point blank shot and the normal barbarian rage would be far stronger in my opinion.

He would get the two attacks he has now and likely not even have to rage.

Solo
2007-10-20, 04:12 PM
A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.

An Enchanter could take him out rather quickly, as he will have low will saves.

A Ray of Enfeeblement deals strength penalty at no save, and two Rays of Exhaustion will make him exhausted even if he makes both saves. A level six wizard knock off -(6+1d6+(3) from his strength from ability penalty and exhaustion.

So, I submit that you make him rage with a minion, while a wizard casts

1) Invisibility

2) Fly

3)Mirror Image

4) Blur or Displacement

5) Ray of Enfeeblement

6) Ray of Exhaustion

7) Ray of Exhaustion again, if necessary

8) Any one of the following:

Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.

9) ???

10) Profit!

The first few buffs can be pre-cast before the battle starts, btw.

NecroRebel
2007-10-20, 04:13 PM
Right off, I can see that the Barbarian is the strongest combatant, but almost certainly the weakest in other areas. So, if you want to make it so that he doesn't constantly outshine everyone else, don't play to his strengths all the time. In other words, make challenges that aren't solvable through violence. Also, make absolutely sure that you penalize him for that 5 Charisma; people should hate him on sight and treat him accordingly.

I'm hoping that you watched him roll those stats. Personally, I wouldn't believe someone who claimed to roll that well.

If he absolutely refuses to back off a bit, then charcter death might be the only option, but first try simply making challenges that play to the other people's strengths instead.

de-trick
2007-10-20, 04:15 PM
id use spells that have no save or no attack roll, also a 6 chr could hurt him if you could reduce it by a spell or ability or critical


Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. then coup him

kpenguin
2007-10-20, 04:16 PM
You mean your ninja couldn't hit a flat-footed opponent with 3 attacks on a roll of 20?

Well, technically barbs don't loose any AC when flat-footed...

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-20, 04:18 PM
Well, technically barbs don't loose any AC when flat-footed...

Ah. Forgot about that little tid-bit.

Machete
2007-10-20, 04:21 PM
Introduce an item that looks to be really GOOD for a certain clas though its true powers can only be used by a certain class THAT ISN'T IN THE PARTY. Don't make it too obvious like a Samurai or Monk thing.

Introduce lots of word heavy role-playing challenges. He is sure to anger someone who will send sexy assassins after him with CHA draining poison in his drink.

"Oh WOW! You sure can drink big guy! Tee hee."

Wham, his face falls to the bar at 0 CHA (that i what happens right?) and she drags him away to saw on his throat for a while to kill him with a slim chance for party intervention so it looks fair but is really stacked againts him.

Remember that really good item from the top. HE will WANT IT and roll up one of those able to use it. Even with his powergamed character, have the item to turn out to have been cursed! (OH NOES :D!) No way to get rid of it and its true effects just happen to de-power his powergamed character enough to make things fair.

HA HA HA HA HA CHAOS!

sikyon
2007-10-20, 04:26 PM
Honestly, he doesn't look that amazing. Your party is pretty varied though, I mean monk/warlock arn't exactly the most powrful classes. How is the barbarian outdoing the druid at lv 7?

Axl_Rose
2007-10-20, 04:31 PM
I've only played like 3 games in my entire life so forgive me if this sounds stupid and would never work:

Why don't you just make some powerful monster appear out of nowhere that happens to have a particular blood grudge for dwarven barbarians with [insert player specific quality here]

I think that'd be pretty funny *and* effective!

Maerok
2007-10-20, 04:31 PM
This gives me the idea for a monster... Can calm emotions defeat rage? Because I'm thinking about a psychedelic monstrous humanoid that exudes an aura of calm emotions and can create mass hallucinations. :smallamused:

Riffington
2007-10-20, 04:34 PM
I like the direct route. Tell him his scores are too high for the campaign, and it makes it hard for you to treat him the same as everyone else. Have him choose: roll a new one or lower this one's attributes to match the rest of the party.

It doesn't matter if he rolled the original scores right in front of you with your dice: if it ruins the game's fun, don't allow it.

Solo
2007-10-20, 04:34 PM
A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.

An Enchanter could take him out rather quickly, as he will have low will saves.

A Ray of Enfeeblement deals strength penalty at no save, and two Rays of Exhaustion will make him exhausted even if he makes both saves. A level six wizard knock off -(6+1d6+(3) from his strength from ability penalty and exhaustion.

So, I submit that you make him rage with a minion, while a wizard casts

1) Invisibility

2) Fly

3)Mirror Image

4) Blur or Displacement

5) Ray of Enfeeblement

6) Ray of Exhaustion

7) Ray of Exhaustion again, if necessary

8) Any one of the following:

Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.

9) ???

10) Profit!

The first few buffs can be pre-cast before the battle starts, btw.


To add to my suggestion:

Make the Wizard an Elf :p

Person_Man
2007-10-20, 04:37 PM
He doesn't qualify for Diehard without Endurance.

Point Blank Shot is a huge waste of a feat.

Barbarians are one of the weakest base classes, especially at higher levels.

There are a variety of enemies that can deal Cha damage via Poison, magic, psionics, or Maiming Strike.

I really don't see the problem.

Thomix
2007-10-20, 04:38 PM
Barbarian (Whirling Dervish Variant) lvl 6
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 5
Feats: Diehard, Pointblank Shot, Extra Rage



You have to take endurance before diehard no??

Edit : Ninja'ed

sikyon
2007-10-20, 04:39 PM
A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.


Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

Solo
2007-10-20, 04:41 PM
Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

I never said he was a good munchkin.

But trying to powergame while ignoring rules.... sounds like an attempt at munckining to me.

CthulhuM
2007-10-20, 05:06 PM
Send him up against a 5th level wilder using wild-surge-augmented ego whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm). DC 17 or 18 will save or be dazed for a round and take 2d4 charisma damage, probably knocking him unconscious instantly. Even if he gets lucky and makes the save, he'll take 2 or 3 charisma damage, and another ego whip will almost certainly finish him off.

BrotherMick
2007-10-20, 05:10 PM
Wouldn't Calm Emotions work as well? Have them fight another group and have him Calmed out of the fight for a bit. See of that helps get your point across

...Eh?
2007-10-20, 05:20 PM
Have a wizard challenge him to a duel of arms, Maximized Touch of Idiocy him (if he points out that it can't reduce stats below 1, point out that you need Endurance to qualify for Diehard) and then have a crowd of people as the big tough Barbarian is coup d'graced by a guy with 3 Strength.

Bassetking
2007-10-20, 05:25 PM
Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

Sometimes Real Munchkins are Real Stupid.

Also: He's using a thrown weapon. Another count against munchkinism.

Further: It is possible to Munch Melee. Just much, much more difficult.

Finally: Want to have some fun with him? Drop him in that arena 1 on 1 with a nice CR 4 Monster. Try a Dire Boar, a Displacer Beast, or a Pixie.

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-20, 05:25 PM
That's a good start. I realized I was having a problem with him when there was no way for my Ninja NPC to deal damage to him. At all. He went invisible, two-weaponed sudden striked some kukris, and nothing happened ...

I'm already penalizing him without magic items, as a note, or at least, no combat items. While the rest of the part is getting ridiculous stuff, best he's gotten is a masterwork great axe.

Thought this would help.

One thing you need to seperate is him being a munchkin and normal aspects of the combat system. the reason the Ninja couldnt affect him is because of Uncanny Dodge. It is not a case of cheating or even being munchkiny.

considering he only has +10 to hit and +4 to damage and is presumably throwing 1d6 weapons I dont see how he could be that powerful compared to your other party members. The stats are strong but to be honest not that strong.

Kizara
2007-10-20, 05:39 PM
You don't need to cheese this at all. Nor do you need to make fussy homebrew stuff. Nor do you need to penalize him at all. Give him the same items as everyone else.

He's fighting an arena fight, right?

Next opponent:

Human
Barbarian 1/ftr 2/hexblade 3/frenzied beserker 1 (hexblade and FB are in complete warrior)

Feats: Power attack, cleave, intimidating rage, destructive rage, leap attack, extra rage.

Equipment: +1, keen greataxe. Belt of Giant strength (+2)
(way under wealth for this level)

Stats: 18/12/18/10/12/14 (considerably lower than his, total points wise)

Rage + frenzy + belt= 30 strength

Without power attacking, that's (+15 strength, +7 BAB, +1 magical axe, +2 charging bonus) +25 to hit on a charge. Let's power attack for 5 (giving +20 to hit, meaning he hits AC 30 by rolling a 10), so he does 1d12+38 points of damage opening hit (1 magical, 22 strength, 15 power attack = 38). Next round, he full attacks for 3 hits via frenzy for 1d12+29 damage (assuming 3 powerattack). If he crits its an instant kill.

Saves look like: Fort: +13, Ref: +1, Will: +5 (+2 to all saves vs magic, also Mettle)

That, my friend, is how you build a barbarian. Even without frenzy I bet he would outclass your problem player.

........

Failing that, get a dragon with power attack, leap attack and improved grapple that prebuffs in combat with stuff like displacement, bull's strength, divine favor, haste and true strike. I'd like to see him live through a CR 8 dragon that uses true strike to leap attack for max power attack opening round.


Moral of the story: Don't powergame as a player unless you are ready to accept the consequences. Also, Leap Attack owns. Hard.

triforcel
2007-10-20, 05:40 PM
Have him go up against Ghosts with Draining Touch for Cha Drain. Since he doesn't have magic weapons he won't be able to do much about it and in 2-5 attacks he'll be in a coma.

Kizara
2007-10-20, 05:41 PM
Sometimes Real Munchkins are Real Stupid.

Also: He's using a thrown weapon. Another count against munchkinism.

Further: It is possible to Munch Melee. Just much, much more difficult.

Finally: Want to have some fun with him? Drop him in that arena 1 on 1 with a nice CR 4 Monster. Try a Dire Boar, a Displacer Beast, or a Pixie.

Also, a couple howlers or a hydra would be nice.

sikyon
2007-10-20, 05:42 PM
I never said he was a good munchkin.

But trying to powergame while ignoring rules.... sounds like an attempt at munckining to me.

How is he powergaming? Ignoring rules is cheating, not powergaming. It is not his fault he rolled good stats and didn't take monk. Come on. Thrown weapons? What the heck is that? He's optimized abit, but honestly if he's the strongest member of the group then the group is frankley on the weak side.

Kizara
2007-10-20, 05:47 PM
How is he powergaming? Ignoring rules is cheating, not powergaming. It is not his fault he rolled good stats and didn't take monk. Come on. Thrown weapons? What the heck is that? He's optimized abit, but honestly if he's the strongest member of the group then the group is frankley on the weak side.

I agree. Cheating is very bad, but powergaming can be productive and he shouldn't be shafted for having a good character. Unless, of course, he's cheating.

Make sure he knows and follows the rules, and seriously, if he is overpowering, perhaps give the other players some tips on how to be better.


Finally, I agree that you should definately RP that low charisma score and have it make a big difference.

Ghostwalker
2007-10-20, 06:27 PM
He's a barbarian time is his enemy long drawn out encounters will leave his fatigued and venerable use it to your advantage, also remember monsters are not the only way to kill a player. For example:

At the end of an encounter have a cave-in were the PC have a make a quick exit or get buried in rubble, the old classics are always the best. This should involves them running for at least 5 rounds, and of course happen only when the barbarian has one round at most of rage left, if he asks this is part of the same encounter so no new rage and he is fatigued. Make it possible for him to survive it, but only if the rest of the party are willing to risk there lives to try and save his. Also only give the rest of the party a short time to decide, like 5 or 10 seconds real time, that way he can't put any pressure on them to save him.

Telok
2007-10-20, 06:47 PM
Make him climb.

Set up a cliff or steep hill encounter. Harpies are a good enemy here. The rest of the party shouldn't have too much trouble with vertical movement or ranged attacks. He can climb well but it takes away his Dex bonuses. If it's too far for him to climb in one round he'll have some hard choices to make.

Make that Charisma count.

Either he is horribly ugly, or has a personality like a bleach soaked brillo pad. Slap him with an Ego Whip, Bestow Curse, or any social situation. Don't push it too hard, but make him aware that he has lost alot of non-combat ability with this character.

Have a bard own him.

Expeditious Retreat, Calm Emotions, Facinate song, the bard can run rings around him with a bow while he staggers along trying to get close enough to cut the range modifiers down

Querzis
2007-10-20, 06:53 PM
How is he powergaming? Ignoring rules is cheating, not powergaming. It is not his fault he rolled good stats and didn't take monk. Come on. Thrown weapons? What the heck is that? He's optimized abit, but honestly if he's the strongest member of the group then the group is frankley on the weak side.

Exactly. Seriously, I really dont think hes a munchkin or anything and I dont care about his stat as long as he roleplay his 5 charisma. If hes really the most powerfull member of the group then it could be because a) hes very lucky and almost always get natural 20. b) all of their opponents are guys who are very weak against barbarian (seriously, a ninja against a barbarian? Why would a ninja be dumb enough to attack the barbarian first instead of the druid or warlock anyway?) c) because everyone else is really weak or unlucky or d) hes cheating. And if hes cheating just do something about it.

From what you told us, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that guy. Give him some magic items and next time chose monsters or NPC who are strong against barbarians or are smart enough to not attack the barbarian first because the barbarian is kinda supposed to be the meat shield anyway so of course hes a really tough guy, but you never beat barbarian by attacking them with weapons, you beat them with spells. Of course your ninja woudnt stand a chance but hes not supposed to beat the barbarian in the first place, hes supposed to sneak behind the barbarian and kill the warlock and the druid!

TheSteelRat
2007-10-20, 06:57 PM
Could we have a little more information? Beyond the fact that he either had Awesome dice rolls, (or cheated for his attributes, which should be a character-death event), and selected a melee class, there's nothing to hold against him. However..... "Math Errors" on a consistent basis = Incompetence or Cheating.

Nothing wrong with not being familiar with the game and all, not everyone builds their off-time around D&D rules, but he's gotta follow them. If he's not following the rules, and therefore getting an advantage that way, you've gotta enforce them to restore some balance. The known example is if that's his feat list, he's already cheated. He can't have Diehard w/out Endurance.

How is he fighting? The best he can do at 1st level is throw an axe and draw one as part of his move action. (No Full Round Attack) If he's attacking with two thrown weapons a round, I'd correct that. There's a reason Quick Draw exists as a feat.

As for "hitting everything," his max attack bonus should be +4 Unmodified Strength, +2 Rage Strength, +1 masterwork weapons, +6 BAB = +13 Attack once / round. This excludes buffs, since I'm not sure what he commonly gets. His damage should be 1d6 (Throwing axe, x2 crit) + 4 unmodified Strength + 2 Rage Strength = 1d6 + 6 damage (9.5 average damage / round).

Edit: With opponents nearby, that's +14 Attack / 10.5 average damage due to his Point Blank Shot feat. He's likely to hit (a good thing), but his damage isn't enough to drop any other decent melee fighter without a crit and a good damage roll (max of 24 points / 26 points PBS)

This isn't that extraordinary. If he's using better modifiers (excluding those unlisted here, and therefore, not considered) or higher damage, have'em check those figures. They might smell of cow pucks.

Editted for Grammar

Kompera
2007-10-20, 07:35 PM
Aside from the highly improbable stats, this character shouldn't be much of an issue. You accepted the stats when he first presented the character to you, so retro-challenging them isn't an adult reaction now. Nor is fabricating encounters solely designed to permanently drain them.

Consider the issue here: You feel this character overbalances the rest of the group. If this is so, then a stat draining opponent which can reduce his 18 STR will devastate any of the other players. And if all stat draining attacks just happen to head for this one player, then you're also cheating the other players of a game in which they are valued participants by designing and focusing your encounters on the problem player. That's not a logical solution, as it simply further accentuates the issue.

First, fix the illegal Feat selection. And issue a warning about the need to audit his character for "math errors", or any other exaggerations such as overlooking the Feat prerequisite or other convenient errors. If he's a cheater and can't resist, you'll be fully justified to ban him from the game.

You may also need to familiarize yourself with the combat rules. If your Barbarian player is a serious threat to your encounters while using thrown axes, then you're probably not enforcing the combat rules correctly. If the Barbarian player is suggesting that he can do things which are outside of the allowable actions, reign him in and refer to the warning above about illegal actions.

Next, design some encounters which play to the non-combat strengths of the other players. That will give them some spotlight which can't be stolen by the Barbarian player.

And last, help the other players be better combatants. If the Barbarian is able to dominate, then they could use some help. Set aside some time to speak with one or more of them without the Barbarian player present. Discuss what their combat options are and how they can be more effective. This may help to bring them more in line with an axe throwing Barbarian.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-20, 07:37 PM
Looking over his class features, the Whirling Frenzy feature basically gives him an extra attack at -2 for all attacks, so he CAN throw twice for one round, after which he's limited to making two attacks if and only if the first is a melee attack, because he has to use a move action to draw a weapon.

As for his other characteristics, he shouldn't have more than a +9 Fort save, +6 (+8 in Frenzy, +8 Against Traps, +10 in Frenzy against Traps) Reflex save, +3 Will save. His highest AC should be 10 + 4 Chain Shirt + 2 Large Shield + 4 Dexterity + 2 Rage (+2 against Traps) = 20 out of Rage, 22 in rage/against traps, 24 against traps in rage. Again, magic buffs aren't included here since I don't know what he has. His touch AC is only 14/16(rage).

He seems pretty vulnerable to ranged touch attacks, ranged attacks by a competent archer, and will-save spells. This is in addition to his dismal charisma score, combined with a lack of social skills should make him a liability in most social / skill-based encounters.

Also, have you kept track of his weapons? Seriously, how many throwing axes can someone reasonably carry? If they're masterwork, I'd want to collect my 158 g items.

Honestly, while he's *good* at what he does (melee & short-range), he's not the best possible.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-20, 07:53 PM
He doesn't qualify for Diehard without Endurance.

Point Blank Shot is a huge waste of a feat.

True, true.


Barbarians are one of the weakest base classes, especially at higher levels.

How so? I thought that he was balanced with Rangers, Rogues, and Sorcerers.

Anyway, go as people said. Creatures that deal stat damage/drain/reduction.
I see he went the ranged route to avoid the melee problems, but it keeps him from going P.A. abuse, so it's not so bad.
A good thing is to place him in bad position, like keeping some mooks shooting from high places, or have some kind of caster using effects to keep him occupied (a grease spell will require at least one Reflex save). Creatures with effects that target will can do wonders, even with the barbarian's Will bonus on a rage.

sikyon
2007-10-20, 09:02 PM
True, true.

How so? I thought that he was balanced with Rangers, Rogues, and Sorcerers.

Anyway, go as people said. Creatures that deal stat damage/drain/reduction.
I see he went the ranged route to avoid the melee problems, but it keeps him from going P.A. abuse, so it's not so bad.
A good thing is to place him in bad position, like keeping some mooks shooting from high places, or have some kind of caster using effects to keep him occupied (a grease spell will require at least one Reflex save). Creatures with effects that target will can do wonders, even with the barbarian's Will bonus on a rage.

See, he even misses out on P.A./shock trooper, one of the only ways to make him playable at higher levels.

I don't know about rangers, but rouges are valued as skill monkeys, and sorceres because they are full casters (though sorcs are considered balanced, between very limited spell selection and extremly powerful arcane spells and slower spell progression). Melee classes just have a tough time keeping up. Pretty much anything a melee class can do, a polymorph/wild shape/divine might can do better.

Riffington
2007-10-20, 11:46 PM
Aside from the highly improbable stats, this character shouldn't be much of an issue. You accepted the stats when he first presented the character to you, so retro-challenging them isn't an adult reaction now. Nor is fabricating encounters solely designed to permanently drain them.

Fabricating encounters is not an adult reaction, true.
But retroactively changing them (in cooperation with the player) is. When something is a problem, fix it directly. If a DM didn't initially realize how much of an issue high stats would cause in a particular campaign, she still has the option to fix the mistake. Making the player part of the solution is the best way to keep everyone happy.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-21, 10:32 AM
While you can tailor encounters to be more of a difficulty, don't attempt to make them designed to eliminate a character from usefulness. If his Barbarian is better than you expected, then you need to provide slightly better enemies for the group. Attributes are assumed to be a "low" point buy for a CR standpoint, and your boy's got a +4 strike/damage/AC/Hit Points. He's going to need something a bitter higher to challenge him. The premise of some of the "punishments" earlier is if he's cheating. Breaking the rules intentionally in his favor. Fudging dice rolls. Using things he shouldn't be able to. Etc. We're saying take away stuff he shouldn't be doing in the first place.

Yeygresh
2007-10-21, 11:13 AM
The Horse Totem barbarian gives the Endurance feat at 5th level, but if he took Extra Rage at level 6, then there's a continuity problem. Boar Totem gives Diehard at level 1, but then he's missing a feat.
It's also possible that he was allowed to circumvent the requirement, as Endurance is a crap feat, and Diehard is mediocre.

As for your predicament, just tell him that his massive stats are disrupting the groups enjoyment, and give him a 34 point buy(he rolled good stats, and he should benefit from it). That'll give him something like 18+1 16 14 10 8 8, or 16+1 16 16 10 10 8; which is much more manageable.

If he feels sore about it just remind him that it's for the benefit for all involved, and maybe some silly out-of-combat item, like a Ring of Sustenance or Jumping or Boots of the Winterlands.


His build is not impressive in the least. Extra Rage is good at lower levels, but it often becomes moot at higher levels(unless you only dipped a rage class). PBS is the equivalent of a +1 enhancement bonus. Diehard is rather poor, only coming in when the barbarian with 72hp(average) is nigh death, and only gives him the ability to run away, or make a last attack.

If he is really outshining the rest of the party, well, they'd have to be monks and swashbucklers and bards and warlo-

Oh.

Sonofaspectre
2007-10-21, 07:28 PM
Thank you everyone for the help you are giving me. I'll try to answer some questions

- We created the world from scratch, and he wanted to make the dwarves. So together we made it so that instead of stonecunning, dwarves get Endurance as the feat. That is how he has Diehard.
- People have been talking about damage. Well, if I am wrong tell me, but if I understand correctly, thrown weapons add STR damage, then rage, then perfect 18, then the Whirling Dervish ability (which I stated ... people forgot I guess? Gives him rapid shot when he rages), then charge. That is +6+4+2-2 twice a round, plus the one extra. Then damage is 1d6+4, twice. If I am wrong, TELL ME. I need to know.
- He is a problem because of not just me but everyone else in the party. The druid is a variant landspeed build, just so he can go 100' a round or something silly. That is why he outshines. Every game, all the players when it is his go double check every roll for me, because they got tired of it before I did.
- The player is a friend, and I am trying to have him not go homicidally insane on me (documented cases of insanity and rage).

The ability drain is great. And yes, I put myself in the problem THIS time because it was the tournament and it was melee based. The next section is murder mystery, followed by Masquerade, so I have that covered. I really just needed things to challenge him without hurting my other party members. Anymore ideas would be great.

Dode
2007-10-21, 07:29 PM
You can't handle a Barbarian who can toss out a single axe a round, +11 to hit with 1d6+6 damage at level 6? That's your idea of min-max and powergaming?

Just be glad he didn't take say Power Attack > Cleave > Great Cleave. I doubt your game could have survived that.

Solo
2007-10-21, 07:30 PM
- The player is a friend, and I am trying to have him not go homicidally insane on me (documented cases of insanity and rage).

I would stick by my friend and support him if he had problems, but I wouldn't game with him if I thought it likely that he'd harm me.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-21, 07:38 PM
You're playing the Alabaster Cup, right? Well have him do the Princess thing. He, with his 5 Cha and barbarism, should offend her so much that he is thrown out of the tournament. Yay, you won everything, except the pretty girl hates you, so you therefore suck at life. Next time think about somthing other than combat.

Dode
2007-10-21, 07:40 PM
- People have been talking about damage. Well, if I am wrong tell me, but if I understand correctly, thrown weapons add STR damage, then rage, then perfect 18, then the Whirling Dervish ability (which I stated ... people forgot I guess? Gives him rapid shot when he rages), then charge. That is +6+4+2-2 twice a round, plus the one extra. Then damage is 1d6+4, twice. If I am wrong, TELL ME. I need to know..
Okay, Rapid Shot is a Full Attack action, meaning he can't do it and charge, because that's also a full-attack action.

Second, you need Quick Draw in order to draw a thrown weapon as a free action, otherwise it's a move action (which precludes him from making a full attack or full-round-action [either multiple attacks or Rapid Shot or Charge]). Which means unless he has three hands to hold his axes with, he can at most get two axe-tosses at the beginning of the fight, then spend the next round tossing an axe as a standard action and using his move action to pull out the next axe for the round after that (and move 30 ft if he wishes to).

Your problem stems from, as you describe it, you're giving him the Quick Draw feat for free and allowing him two full round actions every turn.

Grimfist
2007-10-21, 07:42 PM
- He is a problem because of not just me but everyone else in the party. The druid is a variant landspeed build, just so he can go 100' a round or something silly. That is why he outshines. Every game, all the players when it is his go double check every roll for me, because they got tired of it before I did.

From this excerpt it seems to me that your other players did not roll very combat-savvy characters, and that they are now sore because the one guy who did is outclassing them. People have been suggesting throwing in social scenarios to really hurt this guy, and if it will help your other players feel a bit better go ahead and do so. However, I think that your group really needs to just sit down and talk this over.

It isn't the "overpowered" player's fault that he made a character who is decent at fighting. Try imagining the rest of the group completing a challenging combat scenario without him, and it might turn out that they just messed up. From what you said about how you constructed your campaign world, it seems that you like working with your players, and doing so to sort of fix their party makeup/dynamics might be a good idea as well.

Querzis
2007-10-21, 07:47 PM
- We created the world from scratch, and he wanted to make the dwarves. So together we made it so that instead of stonecunning, dwarves get Endurance as the feat. That is how he has Diehard..

Good, then he wasnt cheating and since other players have been checking his dice rolls he cant have been cheating.


- People have been talking about damage. Well, if I am wrong tell me, but if I understand correctly, thrown weapons add STR damage, then rage, then perfect 18, then the Whirling Dervish ability (which I stated ... people forgot I guess? Gives him rapid shot when he rages), then charge. That is +6+4+2-2 twice a round, plus the one extra. Then damage is 1d6+4, twice..

I dont know if you are right...but I dont think its a problem though. The maximum he can do (without crit) his 20 in one turn, its not that good especially since his attack rolls should be kinda low.

I'll say it again hes either a) Very lucky, b)all the monsters are monsters who are pretty weak against barbarian, c)everyone else is weak or unlucky and it look like he cant be cheating. From what you told us, I guess he is lucky (since other players checked his rolls) and the monsters are pretty weak against barbarian. A rogue (or a ninja) is simply not supposed to attack the barbarian and the barbarian is kinda supposed to win in a melee tournament. But make him fight a spellcasters who cast lots of will based spells or anything that is good against a barbarian and its gonna be alright. The spells who drain his charisma would be too much though since the spellcaster is not supposed to know your dwarf got low charisma and you cant target just him. Just get some spellcasters or monsters with damage reduction and he shoudnt outshine everyone.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-21, 08:01 PM
I'm stunned that this character amounts to powergaming, aside from his stats. I think I could build a level 6 monk on the elite array and kill him in single combat.

Goumindong
2007-10-21, 08:25 PM
I'm stunned that this character amounts to powergaming, aside from his stats. I think I could build a level 6 monk on the elite array and kill him in single combat.

Easily. Improved disarm + disarming weapon, decisive strike, deflect arrows. + half decent items potions.

Monks are pretty darn good against humanoid fighters, which is one reason why they suck so much in DnD.

Hario
2007-10-21, 08:32 PM
Armor of Rage

This armor is similar in appearance to armor of command and functions as a suit of +1 full plate. However, when it is worn, the armor causes the character to take a -4 penalty to Charisma. All unfriendly characters within 300 feet have a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls against her. The effect is not noticeable to the wearer or those affected. (In other words, the wearer does not immediately notice that donning the armor is the cause of her problems, nor do foes understand the reason for the depth of their enmity.)

Strong necromancy; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bestow curse; Price 1,600 gp.

Here's an item that would suit the barbarian rather well, modify it to medium or light armor, if they use Identify tell them it's a +1 mithral breastplate that makes the user an extra rage per day at a +4 strength and +2 con. I don't think the Barbarian will have fun with a 1 Charisma, though if they could get their hands on an analyse dewemer spell I'd tell them what it is. To remove that armor would be a pain though

Quietus
2007-10-21, 08:34 PM
- People have been talking about damage. Well, if I am wrong tell me, but if I understand correctly, thrown weapons add STR damage, then rage, then perfect 18, then the Whirling Dervish ability (which I stated ... people forgot I guess? Gives him rapid shot when he rages), then charge. That is +6+4+2-2 twice a round, plus the one extra. Then damage is 1d6+4, twice. If I am wrong, TELL ME. I need to know.



You're wrong. The attack rolls are correct. The damage is correct. Your problem is with the stuff I've bolded. Each round, you get one standard and one move action, OR one full-round action. Using Rapid Shot is a full-round action, and involves throwing in this case three axes.

As has been mentioned, DRAWING an axe is a move action. Which you don't get during a full attack. He can make at most two attacks a round (if he has axes in both hands before his turn starts).

And, seriously? d6+4, or even d6+6, isn't much damage come level 6.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-21, 08:59 PM
Yeah, your problem is how many attacks he's making. Drawing a weapon is a free action during your move action, so it can't be done as part of a Full Attack. His class feature gives him an extra attack, but at -2 for all his other attacks. His BAB is +6, so he's got a +6 / +1 on a Full Attack.

For a Full Round Attack, he can make a +6 / +1 attack, or while raging, he can make a +4 / +4 / -1 attack (extra attack with all at -2) due to the alternate class feature you selected. However, as he's taking a Full Round Attack, he can't draw a weapon. So, if he attacks in melee until his last iterative attack, throwing it at the end of the round, he can make the above full attack. However, his next round he'll have to spend a move action to draw a weapon, so he can't full attack.

For a Standard Action, he gets a +6 attack or a +4 / +4 attack while raging. In this case, he can draw and throw the ax for the +6 attack, or make 1 melee attack and then 1 throwing attack a round while raging. The move action each round would also be a drawing action every round, so he can keep this up while moving.

It comes down to - No throwing more than once a round, and no drawing a weapon and making a full attack. If he throws it at the end of the round, no full attack next round.

Beyond that, he's a good character for the moment, but I wouldn't consider him too horribly broken. It's just that you're allowing him too many attacks a round.

kjones
2007-10-21, 09:08 PM
As for his other characteristics, he shouldn't have more than a +9 Fort save, +6 (+8 in Frenzy, +8 Against Traps, +10 in Frenzy against Traps) Reflex save, +3 Will save. His highest AC should be 10 + 4 Chain Shirt + 2 Large Shield + 4 Dexterity + 2 Rage (+2 against Traps) = 20 out of Rage, 22 in rage/against traps, 24 against traps in rage. Again, magic buffs aren't included here since I don't know what he has. His touch AC is only 14/16(rage).


Probably a moot point by now, but you do realize that raging decreases your AC by 2, rather than increasing it by 2, right?

TheSteelRat
2007-10-21, 09:18 PM
Probably a moot point by now, but you do realize that raging decreases your AC by 2, rather than increasing it by 2, right?

He's using an alternate class feature from Unearthed Arcana, called Whirling Frenzy.


RAGE VARIANT: WHIRLING FRENZY
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

You're basically trading +X to Con (X/2 HP / HD) for +2 AC / Reflex and the equivalent of TWF second attack, with something more substantial (Say, a Greataxe, or other two-hander). It's a nice trade-off in my opinion, especially if you have access to a healer in your group.

AslanCross
2007-10-21, 09:20 PM
I believe he mentioned he's using the Whirling Frenzy variant, which gives +4 to STR and +2 to AC and Reflex saves instead, and doesn't get the CON boost.

deadseashoals
2007-10-21, 09:45 PM
His build really, really doesn't matter. The fact is, he's good at combats because he has an 18, another 18, and a 16 (modded to 18), and his character sheet says "Barbarian" and has a number after it. What exactly were you expecting? There's no way Conan here is going to be anything but a death machine at low levels with those stats and the barbarian class. If you really can't deal with it, you should work something out with him to have his character exit stage left, but don't be vindictive (holding back magic items). Like everyone else already said, his character doesn't seem to be very muchkin at all, and if you're not prepared to deal with the damage he's doing, of all things, you should probably ban the Barbarian class altogether.

Stormcrow
2007-10-21, 09:54 PM
Okay, Rapid Shot is a Full Attack action, meaning he can't do it and charge, because that's also a full-attack action.

Is it even possible to charge with throwing weapons? I wouldn't be allowing it.

Dode
2007-10-21, 10:18 PM
Is it even possible to charge with throwing weapons? I wouldn't be allowing it. A strict look at the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) description would be no, as it specifies that after making a double-movement on a charge, "you may make a single melee attack". Nothin' about ranged attacks, let along multiples of them.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-21, 10:27 PM
I think there's a feat somewhere that lets you do it during a charge. Anyone know it? Don't have access to books at the moment.

Kompera
2007-10-21, 10:32 PM
- People have been talking about damage. Well, if I am wrong tell me, but if I understand correctly, thrown weapons add STR damage, then rage, then perfect 18, then the Whirling Dervish ability (which I stated ... people forgot I guess? Gives him rapid shot when he rages), then charge. That is +6+4+2-2 twice a round, plus the one extra. Then damage is 1d6+4, twice. If I am wrong, TELL ME. I need to know.


Ok, aside from what some of the folks above have said regarding quickdraw limiting his throws, and the possibility that charge can't be combined with his other manuevers (I don't think I own the sourcebook with the Whirling Dervish ability defined, or don't recall the particulars), he's still not a terribly potent combat force.

In the campaign I'm currently playing in, I'm running a Human Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1. 18 STR, 17 DEX, 15 CON. Not too far off from your player's stats. My Feats are Power Attack, Cleave, EWS: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes.

Combat Reflexes has never come into play for me, yet. But the other Feats? Last adventure I stood in the door of a farm house and moved down evil Monks and goblins, and a single Orc. BAB 3, + 4 STR, +2 Rage = 9, damage +4 STR, + 2 Rage STR = 6 * 1.5 TH Weapon = 9. And I forgot the Rage STR for damage and only added 6 damage. Each round I either killed a monk/goblin and Cleaved into a second, or severely wounded one of them. The next round the wounded one went down, and I cleaved into a second, either severely wounding it or killing it. I only got a single AoO the entire fight, but that crit threat the Orc, confirmed, and dropped him in a single blow. And I only used Power Attack in the initial round, where I also charged, to balance the attack bonus for charge with some additional damage.

Really, except for his slightly higher AC and much higher HP (but my Rage helps a little bit there) my third level character would be a challenging fight for this player.

Get some foes into melee with him. Then if he wants to throw axes he provokes AoO (unless I missed some Feat he has which prevents this.. Point Blank Shot does not prevent AoO, and that's the only ranged Feat listed in the OP)

sikyon
2007-10-21, 10:51 PM
Sonofaspectre, could you give us an example of what happens to show that he's overpowered?

Sonofaspectre
2007-10-21, 11:28 PM
All right! I got what I needed. I realize a few things that I did wrong as a DM (mostly in the wording of his new rage abilities as I am not used to them and trusted what he said.)

I think I will continue to allow him to throw two thrown weapons with the Rapid Shot/TWF version, but he can't charge and do that, and he can't draw a weapon while he charges, unlike a normal move action. Cool.

The CHAR drain is a great idea I never thought about, and is a weakness I should exploit. I also learned that I've been playing to his strengths too much, which is being fixed as we speak, pretty much.

Thanks everyone.

~Sonofaspectre

EDIT: Got anymore CHA draining ideas? Wanna stay away from Psionics if I can, at least for this section of the campaign.

Quietus
2007-10-21, 11:39 PM
All right! I got what I needed. I realize a few things that I did wrong as a DM (mostly in the wording of his new rage abilities as I am not used to them and trusted what he said.)

I think I will continue to allow him to throw two thrown weapons with the Rapid Shot/TWF version, but he can't charge and do that, and he can't draw a weapon while he charges, unlike a normal move action. Cool.

The CHAR drain is a great idea I never thought about, and is a weakness I should exploit. I also learned that I've been playing to his strengths too much, which is being fixed as we speak, pretty much.

Thanks everyone.

~Sonofaspectre

EDIT: Got anymore CHA draining ideas? Wanna stay away from Psionics if I can, at least for this section of the campaign.

Cha damage/drain is unnecessary, really. Engage him from range with bows at a much GREATER range than he's used to. Alternatively, engage in melee with a reach weapon so he draws attacks of opportunity when throwing, and so you get the strength bonus to damage. Or just be mean and hit him with will saves.

If you're stuck on the idea of using his cha against him (and you should), do it in social situations. If you use cha as a physical appearance thing, have people be repulsed by him - All that strength/con, he's got to be a knotty, knobby dwarf, though that strength translates into quick reflexes (high dex). Particularly at the end of this contest, if you're doing the Alabaster Cup (or hell, even if you're not), that cha will come into play. If you aren't doing the Alabaster Cup, the idea is that the final contest is one where the contestants all line up in front of the Lord's daughter. She goes to each in turn, and asks them to impress her. Stress the fact that she finds him disgusting when she comes to him, and have her predisposed to finding feats of combat unimpressive. What Lady-in-training is really all that impressed with the ability to chop down a tree at 30 feet?

Hario
2007-10-21, 11:43 PM
I assume you saw my post for the cursed armor of rage then?