Path of War ONLY: Balance consequences?

[JusticeZero]

Was kicking around an idea of running a human only campaign, likely Epic-6, and using Automatic Bonus Progression, but using ONLY Path of War classes and non-spellcasters with the PoW archetypes...no spells or psionics in the setting, and nothing that would need those to make.
I usually allow +1 level class features and +2 levels for prerequisites, which I'd probably apply to the ABP as well.

What are some things I need to keep an eye on as far as "stuff that the party won't have access to" and "stuff we are used to that the people in the world can't generate" in that setting?

[Firest Kathon]

I don't know which of these the PoW classes can replicate, as it has been a while since I checked it out, but this are the typical caster-required topics:


Ability damage/drain
Death and resurrection
Permanent status effects (e.g. blindness)
Counter to Invisibility
Strategic movement (flight, teleportation)


If no character is able to provide healing to others, the maneuvers which provide these effects are effectively mandatory for the characters.

For the general population, healing is an issue, as there are no spellcasters, potions, scrolls or wands available. Other items with healing effects may be available, but (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/):


you cannot create potions, spell-trigger [staves, wands], or spell-completion [scrolls] magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

If you want to work around these issues, I suggest you have a look into Occult Rituals (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/). They allow you to provide specific effects from spells while not having the effect easily available (e.g. through rare components).

[Kaiwen]

...no spells or psionics in the setting, and nothing that would need those to make.
...
What are some things I need to keep an eye on as far as "stuff that the party won't have access to" and "stuff we are used to that the people in the world can't generate" in that setting?
Saves are now a lot less important than they used to be. Will saves are basically nonexistent, and the only mundane things I can think of that provoke fort saves are poisons, drugs, and alchemical items.
Actually, now that I think about it, that just makes the will saves that do exist (from supernatural abilities) that much more terrifying.

Are SLAs part of your setting?

[Elricaltovilla]

Saves are now a lot less important than they used to be. Will saves are basically nonexistent, and the only mundane things I can think of that provoke fort saves are poisons, drugs, and alchemical items.
Actually, now that I think about it, that just makes the will saves that do exist (from supernatural abilities) that much more terrifying.

Are SLAs part of your setting?

There are plenty of PoW maneuvers that require saves, including Will Saves. Saving Throws will still be relevant assuming that the enemies you face will be using maneuvers as well.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

How would maneuvers function in an Epic 6 environment?

[Elricaltovilla]

How would maneuvers function in an Epic 6 environment?

I don't understand the question. Why would E6 change the way that maneuvers function?

[Ruethgar]

No magic items is kinda scary, in E6 its not too bad, but with PF you don't even have the shaky fallback of Ravenloft devices, Sculpt Self, and Vow of Poverty to fall back on.

Also, if requiring the PoW archetypes, allowing Bards, Paladins, and Rangers would still have no spells and keep the flavor of those classes available. Soulknife is the only one I see that keeps it's psionic ability, but honestly that is really minor.

[KatsOfLoathing]

No magic items is kinda scary, in E6 its not too bad, but with PF you don't even have the shaky fallback of Ravenloft devices, Sculpt Self, and Vow of Poverty to fall back on.

Automatic Bonus Progression covers for the basic needs there. Though that does raise the question of what the Mystic will be doing with their item-crafting class features. Maybe that's just an exclusive ability to them and otherwise unavailable in the setting?

Healing is definitely a question to be addressed. HP damage is relatively easy to manage, but the party will definitely want a Radiant Dawn user or Medic (or both at the same time) to cover status effect clearance and ability damage healing.

Crowd control becomes a much different game in a setting without casters. There's nobody to throw around walls, webs, and area-radius debuffs, so classes that can pull aggro like a Warder or throw debuffs from a distance like a Harbinger will definitely be valuable.

Ultimately, I think the party should be looking at the same questions that a normal-setting party does: Are they covering all of the necessary roles of an adventuring party? And are there any potential situations that could arise in a campaign that is simply outside their ability to interact with? Those questions would just have a few more asterisks attached to them than normal.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I don't understand the question. Why would E6 change the way that maneuvers function?

You only get up to third-level maneuvers, which hacks out most of the useful maneuvers. A Radiant Dawn user could heal, but would never get the utility of Shatter Spell. And beyond stuff like that, there's the question of if initiators if initiators are stuck with their current amount of maneuvers known once they hit level 6 forever or if they can swap them out at 'even' levels, stuff like that.

[Powerdork]

And beyond stuff like that, there's the question of if initiators if initiators are stuck with their current amount of maneuvers known once they hit level 6 forever or if they can swap them out at 'even' levels, stuff like that.

No question; the challenge of "I want to learn new spear tricks or overwrite my old ones" is filled by feat advancement (Advanced Study gives you two maneuvers or a stance in your disciplines; generally those are the maneuvers you can upgrade into) and general retraining (per Ultimate Campaign, or the PRD (http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/retraining.html): 60 gold per day of training, give or take, can be used to retrain 'spells known' (2 days per maneuver level) if the GM is charitable, or a 'class feature' (5 days) otherwise).

[Elricaltovilla]

You only get up to third-level maneuvers, which hacks out most of the useful maneuvers. A Radiant Dawn user could heal, but would never get the utility of Shatter Spell.

There are plenty of good utility maneuvers and stances available at 3rd level and lower, and the OP indicates that there will be no magic or psionics whatsoever, so Shatter Spell seems pretty unnecessary anyway.

The biggest thing I think you lose out on is flight. All of the flight granting stances are level 5 stances or above. Teleportation still works, but everyone is going to need a bow or something to take out enemy fliers. Good thing there's plenty of ranged maneuvers out there.

One thing I would recommend doing for this is giving all the archetype initiators full maneuver progression using the warder's advancement since they lose out on high level class features and don't get an opportunity to really make up for their reduced maneuver progression with feats.

[Kris Moonhand]

There are plenty of good utility maneuvers and stances available at 3rd level and lower, and the OP indicates that there will be no magic or psionics whatsoever, so Shatter Spell seems pretty unnecessary anyway.

The biggest thing I think you lose out on is flight. All of the flight granting stances are level 5 stances or above. Teleportation still works, but everyone is going to need a bow or something to take out enemy fliers. Good thing there's plenty of ranged maneuvers out there.

One thing I would recommend doing for this is giving all the archetype initiators full maneuver progression using the warder's advancement since they lose out on high level class features and don't get an opportunity to really make up for their reduced maneuver progression with feats.

I've never been sure of E6 rules (from what I know, they're not my jam at all), but Unbroken Stride (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Unbroken_Stride) is a 1st level stance that grants flight at initiator level 10th. Caster level (and therefor IL) still increases past 6th, right? If not, ignore me.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've never been sure of E6 rules (from what I know, they're not my jam at all), but Unbroken Stride (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Unbroken_Stride) is a 1st level stance that grants flight at initiator level 10th. Caster level (and therefor IL) still increases past 6th, right? If not, ignore me.

AFAIK, caster level (and initiator level) does not continue to increase past 6th level, so Unbroken Stride loses out on granting flight.

And I've gone on record before as stating that Unbroken Stride is my favorite stance in the game, so I'm well aware of it.

[Powerdork]

they lose out on high level class features and don't get an opportunity to really make up for their reduced maneuver progression with feats.

Are we thinking of the same e6?

[Elricaltovilla]

Are we thinking of the same e6?

I assume so. E6 as I remember playing it you get bonus feats instead of levels after you hit 6th level, correct? But there's no way to actually progress your level for meeting new prerequisites or getting feats or class features that are gated behind level requirements, at least in the way I played it.

That's all fine and good, but many of those archetypes were designed with the assumption that they could use spells and other support from non-pow archetypes and class features to help them still compete with full initiators. Especially in the case we are talking about here, the rogue and fighter suffer due to lack of access to magic based archetypes, the soulknife loses access to gifted blade (or may not exist entirely, alongside the aegis), and psywar, alchemist/investigator, warpriest/Inquisitor all vanish. Because these classes lose so many other good options that compliment and support their PoW archetypes, they can look unappealing compared to standard initiators.

Of course, I'm typing this all up on my phone and don't have access to the full akashic record that was installed in my brain when I got hired on to freelance for DSP (no WiFi here) so my responses probably aren't as clear and concise as they probably could be.

[Powerdork]

E6 as I remember playing it you get bonus feats instead of levels after you hit 6th level, correct? But there's no way to actually progress your level for meeting new prerequisites or getting feats or class features that are gated behind level requirements, at least in the way I played it.

Something to remember is that for archetype initiation, most often, you see something like "The maximum level of maneuvers gained through rubato levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat."

So, if a 5th-level rubato takes Advanced Study, she qualifies for Elemental Flux Stance just as well as a mystic of the same level because each rubato level is counted as a full initiator level, even if she couldn't select it by way of Table 2-1: Archetype Maneuver Progression (because 7th level doesn't exist).

[Elricaltovilla]

Something to remember is that for archetype initiation, most often, you see something like "The maximum level of maneuvers gained through rubato levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat."

So, if a 5th-level rubato takes Advanced Study, she qualifies for Elemental Flux Stance just as well as a mystic of the same level because each rubato level is counted as a full initiator level, even if she couldn't select it by way of Table 2-1: Archetype Maneuver Progression (because 7th level doesn't exist).

I'm aware. I feel like this is probably the 5th time I told you this Metool, but I wrote those rules for PoW:E.

It doesn't change the fact that the archetypes that I wrote were designed to account for interactions with archetypes and class levels/abilities that are gated out by E6 progression and the additional house rules that the OP is looking to use, and as a result of this, the archetypes lose some of their appeal in comparison to full initiators.

An example would be the Knight Disciple Paladin, which has a class feature (Spell Familiarity) allowing the archetype to keep using spell completion and spell trigger items that run off the paladin spell list. This feature is lost due to the absence of magic in the game proposed by OP. The Knight Disciple also loses out on another key feature of the archetype in Guardian's Aura, which critically allows the Knight Disciple to use their counters to directly defend nearby allies. This feature is locked out by the E6 progression. These abilities were included on the Knight Disciple to help give them something to make the Knight Disciple stand out as a tanking choice in comparison to the Warder. Without them, the Knight Disciple becomes critically less effective as a tanking class and so a small change improving their maneuver progression helps make up for the lack of these features and restores some of the appeal of the archetype in the context of the game.

[Powerdork]

I'm aware. I feel like this is probably the 5th time I told you this Metool, but I wrote those rules for PoW:E.

It doesn't change the fact that the archetypes that I wrote were designed to account for interactions with archetypes and class levels/abilities that are gated out by E6 progression and the additional house rules that the OP is looking to use, and as a result of this, the archetypes lose some of their appeal in comparison to full initiators.

An example would be the Knight Disciple Paladin, which has a class feature (Spell Familiarity) allowing the archetype to keep using spell completion and spell trigger items that run off the paladin spell list. This feature is lost due to the absence of magic in the game proposed by OP. The Knight Disciple also loses out on another key feature of the archetype in Guardian's Aura, which critically allows the Knight Disciple to use their counters to directly defend nearby allies. This feature is locked out by the E6 progression. These abilities were included on the Knight Disciple to help give them something to make the Knight Disciple stand out as a tanking choice in comparison to the Warder. Without them, the Knight Disciple becomes critically less effective as a tanking class and so a small change improving their maneuver progression helps make up for the lack of these features and restores some of the appeal of the archetype in the context of the game.

Fair. Sorry for focusing on the phrase "they don't get an opportunity to really make up for their reduced maneuver progression with feats".

[Elricaltovilla]

Fair. Sorry for focusing on the phrase "they don't get an opportunity to really make up for their reduced maneuver progression with feats".

I have to acknowledge that that was poorly worded on my part anyway. Apologies from my end of the computer screen as well.

[JusticeZero]

As far as magic items, the statement is actually "If a player cannot invent it with the rules in place, it cannot be made or duplicated". Same principle as "You can't get or create psionic items in a setting with no psionics".
I had a similar rule on my psionic campaign, and as a result, certain items were unavailable in spite of crafters being available, because they were based on spells that did not exist.
Having no magic spell lists would presumably cut back on available item types DRAMATICALLY, unless I am missing something?

[KatsOfLoathing]

As far as magic items, the statement is actually "If a player cannot invent it with the rules in place, it cannot be made or duplicated". Same principle as "You can't get or create psionic items in a setting with no psionics".
I had a similar rule on my psionic campaign, and as a result, certain items were unavailable in spite of crafters being available, because they were based on spells that did not exist.
Having no magic spell lists would presumably cut back on available item types DRAMATICALLY, unless I am missing something?

It would, yes, but my concern regarding magic item crafting is less about the actual mechanical shakeout and more that it would leave entire portions of the Mystic class on the cutting floor, unless you're planning on providing some new features to substitute for their item-crafting class abilities.

[Powerdork]

I'd like to state that it's possible to waive creation requirements from item crafting by increasing the DC of the check made to craft the item in question, and for any kind of item that isn't a spell item (spell trigger wands and staves, spell completion scrolls, potions: they NEED those spells), you can remove spell requirements in this way. Thus, a mystic is like the one base class that gets an arcane caster level, qualifying them for item creation feats (which also can't be waived). Mystics still get to play that game, they just can't use mystic artifice to make spell items. Mystic artifice still allows them to try to make other magic items without proccing the DC increase.
The class features that look like they're less applicable, but still are a little applicable because spell-like abilities still exist (presumably, otherwise a lot of monsters become sad), are arcane defense and withstand spell.
The only thing that's truly useless, as presented, is quell magic, since there's no magic to quell. Which is fine.

Plus, there's a lot of stuff that's just cut off by the fact that we're talking e6 anyway.

[Elricaltovilla]

There is also the Master Craftsman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman/) feat, which allows anyone who takes it to craft magic weapons and armor and wondrous items, bypassing the requirements to do so.

[JusticeZero]

Sure. I don't have anything against making items per se. Just reducing the amount a bit, and there's an obvious issue with items that duplicate something that doesn't exist and never existed.