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View Full Version : Two weapon shield ranger - help building a wanderer



Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 04:59 PM
Hey all. I've been interested in playing a ranger who takes the two weapon fighting style, and uses shield bash for a while now. I was wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks for a build like that, or if, maybe, it's just a horribly sub-optimal choice.

Anxe
2007-10-20, 05:03 PM
Well by RAW shield bonuses to AC don't stack. I think thats ridiculous though. A shield covers half your body. They should stack if you have two of them. And yes it is a good build for a fighter or a ranger.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 05:07 PM
One of my big concerns is that if I wear even 1 shield that's capable of shield bash, I'm pretty much SOL on ranged combat unless I put my shield on as a part of combat... which... if you think about it, is fairly reasonable not to always be walking around with a shield on your arm. Unless you're expecting trouble...

Matthew
2007-10-20, 05:15 PM
Well by RAW shield bonuses to AC don't stack. I think thats ridiculous though. A shield covers half your body. They should stack if you have two of them. And yes it is a good build for a fighter or a ranger.

That's a misconception about how Shields are employed. You keep a Shield between you and your foes, you don't hold it statically on one side of your body. That said, if you use the Facing rules you can get some use out of two Shields.

As for the original Poster, Rangers who primarily use Shield Bash isn't a very good option, but it is doable. To minimise Feats, you probably ought to go with a Short Sword and a Large/Heavy Shield combined with improved Shield Bash. A Light Weapon, such as a Short Sword, would comprise your Off Hand Attack, whilst the Heavy Shield would be your Primary Attack.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 05:22 PM
Thanks for the tips.

The campaign I'm considering playing this in is one where we're likely not going to be able to buy magical items, but just find them. This seem like it might be a problem?

Matthew
2007-10-20, 05:49 PM
It depends what kind of items your DM gives you. So long as he isn't a jerk about it, handing out completely useless items and then hitting your party with hard encounters, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Or to put it another way, if the DM is is trustworthy, there should be no problem.

If I were you, though, I wouldn't become too attached to any one weapon. As a Ranger, you can afford to have a Light, Martial and Ranged Weapon available to use in various ways. For instance, a Heavy Shield, Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword and Long Bow gives you plenty of options:

Two Handed - Long Sword
Weapon and Shield - Short Sword and Heavy Shield
Two Weapons - Long Sword and Short Sword
Ranged Attack - Dagger/Long Bow

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 05:54 PM
That does indeed make some sense. At worst with the shield bash, I've only waisted one feat.

Matthew
2007-10-20, 06:00 PM
I take it that it's 3.5 you're playing? If so, you may want to speak to your DM about the imbalance between Two Handed Fighting and Two Weapon Fighting. Worst case scenario, you could take a Level in Spirit thingy Barbarian from Complete Champion and get access to Pounce, but that's pretty cheesy.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 06:12 PM
Yes. 3.5

Yeah. It is pretty cheesy, and he prefers we stick to core as much as possible. As such, I'm looking at an Elven Rogue 2 or 3 / Ranger 2 or 3 / Horizon walker. I might ask for the one feat that lets ranger and rogue levels stack for certain purposes, but since I'll only be taking 2-3 levels of each, I'm not sure it would matter. I can't even find it atm.

Telok
2007-10-20, 06:21 PM
One possibility to help with the ranged issue while using a shield is the Spined Shield, an enchanted heavy shield thst gives you three heavy crossbow shots per day.

If you can find someone with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat you could probably get the shield upgraded to more times per day. It involves time and money, but most DMs are quite willing to give sidequests and money sinks to players who ask for them.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-20, 06:27 PM
Heh. Interesting solution. Thanks.

Can anyone remember the name of the feat that lets you combine rogue and ranger levels for sneak attack and favored enemy?

Kompera
2007-10-20, 11:37 PM
That's a misconception about how Shields are employed. You keep a Shield between you and your foes, you don't hold it statically on one side of your body. That said, if you use the Facing rules you can get some use out of two Shields.
Even so, a shield is a rather bulky item. Even a light shield. To use two would require two bucklers, or at best a buckler and a light shield. Two light shields would very much tend to get in the way of each other. This is a fantasy game, though, so I suppose two light shields could be justified as some bizarre fighting style, or whatever.

Edit: Typo ("Two use two" - Too many twos to keep track of :smalltongue: )

togapika
2007-10-20, 11:45 PM
"Ranged" shield special ability from Magic Item Compendium p. 13
Gives you a heavy shield with 1d8+ bonuses with 30 foot range.
Then see if the DM will let you add the bonus that doubles it's range.

ForzaFiori
2007-10-21, 12:14 AM
I would suggest getting a light off-hand weapon, and a bashing heavy shield. I did that build once with a fighter just for kicks (my off hand weapon was a spear i belive, b/c i had just watched 300, and i always liked spear and sheild), and it worked as good as any 2 weapon build. in fact, most of my 2 weapon builds use that combo.

Wooter
2007-10-21, 12:26 AM
"Ranged" shield special ability from Magic Item Compendium p. 13
Gives you a heavy shield with 1d8+ bonuses with 30 foot range.
Then see if the DM will let you add the bonus that doubles it's range.

The fact that you have a Captain America avatar is so appropriate.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-21, 12:48 AM
I've tried fighting with a buckler on the arm I was using a hand held weapon on. I'm not sure if I built the buckler poorly, or what, but I could not get it strapped on in a way that it wouldn't get in the way of my strikes.

Anyway, as for the thrown shield idea: That could work.

Or I could use javlins or other thrown weapons, since those only require one hand to use. Forgot about those.

There are 3 classes I am considering for this version of the build I am looking at for a character (I'm also considering a ranged specialist character).

I'm looking at some combination of Ranger, Scout, and Rogue going for Horizon walker. The only real requirements on this are that I want trapfinding (and the skills to use it), track, and endurance as feats.

I'm also considering maybe focusing on bow based combat, which would also make sense as a hunter and a wanderer. Again, the basic requirements are listed above. But for any ranged character I -have- to wind up with precise shot.

Lemur
2007-10-21, 12:55 AM
Even so, a shield is a rather bulky item. Even a light shield. Two use two would require two bucklers, or at best a buckler and a light shield. Two light shields would very much tend to get in the way of each other. This is a fantasy game, though, so I suppose two light shields could be justified as some bizarre fighting style, or whatever.

Yeah, Samurai Jack did that in one episode. I don't care what anyone says, dual shield bashing is awesome.

Anyway, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) is a decent feat, since it reduces the penalty for using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand, meaning you can get power attack with it, and use a heavy shield easier.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-21, 01:04 AM
I'd just like to point out that my DM prefers we keep things to core and SRD as much as possible, and we need to request each non-core item, so while I agree that there are lots of really nice features outside of core I'd like to use, I'm not sure what will or won't be allowed, and would like to keep it to a minimum to suit the DM.

honkuimushi
2007-10-21, 01:15 AM
Heh. Interesting solution. Thanks.

Can anyone remember the name of the feat that lets you combine rogue and ranger levels for sneak attack and favored enemy?


I don't think there is one. I've looked, but I've pretty much decided to homebrew one. I have PHB II and all the Completes except for Complete Champion, but I haven't found anything. The synergy feats are pretty new, so I can't think of too many other possible sources? Maybe something from FR or an OGL product?

I was thinking something like this:

Savvy Hunter
Prereqs: Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack

1. Your Rogue and Ranger levels stack for determining when you select additional favored enemies as well as the total bonus granted against your favored enemies.

2. Add half your Ranger levels(round down) to your rogue levels to determine sneak attack bonus.

3. All Ranger and Rogue class skills are considered class skills for both classes.

4. If you gain Evasion from both Ranger and Rogue levels, the second Evasion instead grants Improved Evasion. If you already have Improved Evasion, you instead gain a bonus feat.

That might be a bit strong, but I haven't found a PrC that really mixes the 2 classes very well. Two of your signature abilities continue to improve throughout your career(though the strongest one is retarded a bit) you get an ability that allows you to remain a skill monkey without needing Able Learner. Finally, the last ability gets rid of a redundancy if you take a lot of Ranger levels.

Two other abilities that would be appropriate would be to allow uncanny dodge to count ranger levels as well as rogue levels foe determining vulnerability to sneak attack. (Nice, but not overpowering.) Or making favored enemies vulnerable to sneak attack like Swift Hunter does for skirmish damage.(A major change.) The first could probably be added without too much trouble or exchanged for either 3 or 4. The second would require more sacrifices, maybe choose 2 abilities-- either 1 or 2 and 3 or 4.

Helgraf
2007-10-21, 01:15 AM
Two Weapon Style.

Two Heavy Spiked Shields.
Chain Shirt with Armor Spikes.

This gives you the option of attacking with the Armor Spikes as a secondary weapon (-5 off your BAB), attacking with one shield and using the other for AC - or attacking with both shields, using the TWF rules.

So you can decide from round to round whether the extra +2 AC (more if enchanted) is more important or the extra attack is. And if the AC is more important, well, just take the second attack anyway with the armor spikes at the -5 penalty instead.

Armor Spikes are fun.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-21, 04:00 AM
Shield bash would let me use the shield for an attack without needing to give up the AC bonus, so I don't even have to decide.

As for the home brew feat, that is interesting, and a nice one, though the theme for similar feats would seam to point to the rogue and ranger levels stacking for sneak attack and favored enemy.

Kiero
2007-10-21, 05:08 AM
This is a fantasy game, though, so I suppose two light shields could be justified as some bizarre fighting style, or whatever.

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/ab3219/last_hero_in_china.jpg

http://fangirl.kommiekomiks.com/Last-Hero-in-China.jpg


I've tried fighting with a buckler on the arm I was using a hand held weapon on. I'm not sure if I built the buckler poorly, or what, but I could not get it strapped on in a way that it wouldn't get in the way of my strikes.

It was a common Highland fighting style to use broadsword, dirk and buckler at the same time.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 05:42 AM
Even so, a shield is a rather bulky item. Even a light shield. To use two would require two bucklers, or at best a buckler and a light shield. Two light shields would very much tend to get in the way of each other. This is a fantasy game, though, so I suppose two light shields could be justified as some bizarre fighting style, or whatever.

Not sure why you are quoting me, as you just appear to be rephrasing what I said...


I don't care what anyone says, dual shield bashing is awesome.

Reversed and back at you.


Anyway, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) is a decent feat, since it reduces the penalty for using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand, meaning you can get power attack with it, and use a heavy shield easier.
True, but unless he plays a Fighter it's going to eat up precious Feats.

I don't think there is one. I've looked, but I've pretty much decided to homebrew one. I have PHB II and all the Completes except for Complete Champion, but I haven't found anything. The synergy feats are pretty new, so I can't think of too many other possible sources?

Nah, it's in Complete Scoundrel and it's called Swift Hunter.


It was a common Highland fighting style to use broadsword, dirk and buckler at the same time.

Hmmn. What's your source for that?

Kiero
2007-10-21, 06:38 AM
Hmmn. What's your source for that?

On swordforum.com (http://swordforum.com/articles/hes/highlandscots-2.php):


In battlefield combat, the dirk was a "backup" to the broadsword. It often was carried in the left hand while the targe was worn simultaneously on the left arm. Since the targe itself often had a steel spike screwed into the central boss, this combination of dirk, spike, shield, and broadsword was formidable.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 06:49 AM
It seems like an odd claim. I can't imagine it being anything more than a hindrance whilst carrying a Targe/Buckler/Shield. I don't suppose you know what his source is for this?

Kiero
2007-10-21, 06:58 AM
It seems like an odd claim. I can't imagine it being anything more than a hindrance whilst carrying a Targe/Buckler/Shield.

I don't see that it's that odd at all. A targe/buckler isn't that big, nor comparatively that heavy. It covers your forearm, and doesn't interfere with your hand if it's strapped on correctly.


I don't suppose you know what his source is for this?

I don't, but I've seen it referenced many times before, also in old fencing manuals for use with rapier, buckler and main gauche/dagger.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 07:01 AM
I don't see that it's that odd at all. A targe/buckler isn't that big, nor comparatively that heavy. It covers your forearm, and doesn't interfere with your hand if it's strapped on correctly.

I guess it depends what you think of as a Targe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targe).


I don't, but I've seen it referenced many times before, also in old fencing manuals for use with rapier, buckler and main gauche/dagger.

Got any links? Even multiple references sometimes turn out to be mistaken repeats of one another (such as the whole Maces and shedding blood myth). I can imagine it being done or taught, but as a common practice it seems odd to me.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-21, 07:25 AM
Nah, it's in Complete Scoundrel and it's called Swift Hunter.


That's for ranger / scout, which is a possibility, but I was previously looking for ranger / rogue.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 07:34 AM
Whoops! I could have sworn I read it that way. Must have been more tired than I thought... the only other one I know of is Swift Ambusher for Scout/Rogue combinations, but I assume you're aware of that one.

Ranger/Scout combinations are not a bad idea at all, but you need something like Pounce or Two Weapon Pounce to make it work with two weapons.

honkuimushi
2007-10-21, 08:26 AM
I've found 4 synergy feats for x/Rogue. Monk/ Rogue and Paladin/ Rogue in Complete Adventurer and Swashbuckler/ Rogue and Scout/ Rogue in Complete Scoundrel. The only one that grants an increased sneak attack is Daring Outlaw. It stacks 1:1, but Requires 2d6 sneak attack and Grace +1. That delays availability to 6th level at the earliest.

The Monk and Paladin feats make your special attack more effective when combined with sneak attack. The monk feat says it increases your sneak attack in the table, but the description makes no mention of that and instead says that levels stack for unarmed damage. A big feature of these 2 feats is that they allow free multiclassing with rogue. Swift Ambusher increases skirmish instead of sneak attack.

For Ranger I found 3 feats. Scout/Ranger, Monk/Ranger, and Paladin/Ranger. Only Swift Hunter increased favored enemies.

In light of that, I thought that granting sneak attack to the Ranger was probably a little too much, even if you had to take 3 levels of rogue. Half sneak attack with a few extra's seemed a bit more balanced. The additional favored enemies were a fairly minor addition. After all, it really isn't that strong. (As long as favored enemies don't become vulnerable to sneak attack like with Swift Hunter.) But sneak attacks can be very strong. I just wasn't comfortable giving a full BAB class the same sneak attack damage as a pure rogue for the price of 1 BAB and 3 or 4 levels of a class with hit dice one step lower.

It may be a little weaker that Daring Outlaw, but I'm not sure I'm willing to use that feat as a base for comparison. Remenber though that the swashbuckler abilities aren't all that great. Grace is a minor ability (+3 to reflex at 20th level.) The +4 dodge bonus(again at level 20) is a little better, but it only counts against 1 enemy.

Kiero
2007-10-21, 11:12 AM
I guess it depends what you think of as a Targe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targe).

Got any links? Even multiple references sometimes turn out to be mistaken repeats of one another (such as the whole Maces and shedding blood myth). I can imagine it being done or taught, but as a common practice it seems odd to me.

There's a plate from Talhoffer (http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_hs_loebenr=2&p_sidenr=241&p_illnr=0&p_frem=0&p_tilbage=0&p_navtype=rel&p_lang=eng)showing sword, dagger and buckler.

It was also pretty common in antiquity for a warrior with sword and shield to hold javelins or throwing spears in their shield hand, to loose prior to closing.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 11:35 AM
Yeah, I located the Talhoffer plate. Unfortunate that it does not show how the Dagger and Buckler are held. As I say, it's not the ability to do such a thing that I doubt, only the claim that it was common or standard.

A variety of missile weapons could be held in the Shield hand prior to combat and, indeed, Vegetius tells us that Plumbata were additionally available. However, it does not follow that the Shield could be easily handled in melee whilst holding such items.

Kompera
2007-10-21, 11:52 AM
Even so, a shield is a rather bulky item. Even a light shield. To use two would require two bucklers, or at best a buckler and a light shield. Two light shields would very much tend to get in the way of each other. This is a fantasy game, though, so I suppose two light shields could be justified as some bizarre fighting style, or whatever.

Not sure why you are quoting me, as you just appear to be rephrasing what I said...Not quite. You said two shields could be useful were the facing rules to be used. I contend that wielding two shields is probably not even possible, save for some fantasy fighting style.


Anyway, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) is a decent feat, since it reduces the penalty for using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand, meaning you can get power attack with it, and use a heavy shield easier.

True, but unless he plays a Fighter it's going to eat up precious Feats.

Please be more careful with your quotes. I did not say the above (regarding Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting) at all.

Edit:

@Kiero. Nice pics. They pretty much support my point. Last Hero in China cinematics can't be considered to represent any real world fighting styles. :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-10-21, 12:10 PM
Not quite. You said two shields could be useful were the facing rules to be used. I contend that wielding two shields is probably not even possible, save for some fantasy fighting style.

Er yeah, but why quote me on it? None of what you say contradicts what I am saying.


Please be more careful with your quotes. I did not say the above (regarding Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting) at all.

Sorry. Mistakes happen from time to time, especially with the Multi Quote feature disabled.

Kompera
2007-10-21, 01:04 PM
Er yeah, but why quote me on it? None of what you say contradicts what I am saying.

Consider it a clarification, then. Or accept my apology for somehow offending your sensibilities. Whichever you chose.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 01:14 PM
Well, an explanation was all I was after, not an apology. No harm done, though, and no hard feelings on my side.

alexi
2007-10-21, 03:57 PM
on the targe dirk broadsword deal and sources:

Highland Swordsmanship: Techniques of the Scottish Sword Masters
by william Hope

Old Sword Play
by Alfred Hutton

any number of books from Osprey Publishing on the Jacobite armies and rebellion.

the idea being when a red coat would attempt to bayonette a jacobite he would block with the targe, the use the targe to push the brown bess aside and sweep up with the dirk. From what I rember the targe had two straps, one the forearm went thru and the other was gripped by the hand. the hand gripping the strap would also grip the dirk in a ice-pick grip.

Matthew
2007-10-21, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the references Alexi. Should make for some interesting reading.

Kiero
2007-10-21, 05:14 PM
Apparently there's also a reference to this fighting style in Shakespeare's Macbeth (the titular character favoured this style). Given Shakespeare wasn't exactly a stickler for historicity, he was probably inspired by the Scots of his own time, rather than those of the 11th century.